Why do people want veteran ranks removed?

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

*sigh* seriously, are you a paid to post?.....

okay that bold is pure (naive) speculation so heres mine. silver will be geared for level 50 with 0-100CP; gold will be geared for level 50 with 100-200 CP; craglorn will be geared for level 50 with 200+CP

see how they can still get you to grind, make a power gap between fresh 50 and old 50, note how you still can't just walk into DSA or trials? i just threw numbers out for CPs so yall can just insert whatever CP numbers you like, you will still be forced to grind something for more power "progression".

edit: its not more power its "progression"

I don't think it would be possible for them to gear content based on number of CPs; there's such a wide range of passives to choose from that it would not be viable.

the main point was to guppet because he/she keeps posting that with no VRs that level 50s are going to just drop into the end game content with out any need to gear up/gain CPs/anything. i find it highly unlikely that they will make it feasible for a fresh 50 to be able to just hop into end game content withOUT having to grind anything

however, it would depend greatly on how they set the system up, which i don't know enough of to base any theories off of, and the mob mechanics they plan to put in. this isn't a new system by any stretch, and i have experienced the same in EQ with AA and though you didnt need ALL the AA's but you would have to greatly compensate with gear and then higher end content did start requiring specific abilities/passives from mid to deep within the system.

for example:
you need a teir 3 ability that increases block mitigation by 100% for 5 seconds. to get teir three you must first spend 10 points in tier 1 and then 15 points into tier 2. that would sum up to a total of 25 points before having the needed teir 3 ability.

Is that a "hard" requirement, as it were? As in, you cannot do whatever thing until you have that ability, or is it a "very recommended" requirement, without which you'd probably be screwed but would still be able to try the content?
I agree that there will likely be some form of progression measure which makes, say, Silver Zone 5 harder than Silver Zone 1, but I think one of the main purposes of ZOS doing this is so that people can be reasonably viable in all endgame content as soon as they hit 50; that's both Silver and Gold, Craglorn, Cyrodiil, and the lower Vet Dungeons and Trials. You'd need a bit of CP progression to be able to do the higher Dungeons and Trials, DSA, etc, but you wouldn't need to do Silver and Gold before Craglorn.

It's basically a question of making sure there is still a semblance of progression within content types, while making sure there is not a requirement between content types before you're viable for that content.

For example:
Player --- Solo PvE --- Group PvE ---- PvP ---- Vet Dungs ---- Trials ---- DSA
New 50 -- S&G T1 --- Lower Crag --- Cyrodiil --- All (ex. CoA) -- HRC, AA -- Norm
Adv 50 --- S&G T5 --- Upper Crag --- Cyrodiil --- All inc. CoA ---- SO ---- Vet

"Adv 50" refers to a Level 50 player who has advanced some way ahead of the "New 50" player who just hit 50.
S&G T1/T5 refer to Silver and Gold Tier 1 and Tier 5 zones. (The rest of those fit in between.)

Edit: Trying to align stuff vertically does not work too well

i have found that end-game content is a grey area between a "hard requirement" and a "very recommended requirement". some aspects, are going to be "its required" and others won't be. with the AA system in EQ the first tier (general teir) were more stat based (strength, dexterity, agility) and they were only hard required in that you needed them to get to the next tier (archetype tier), which was required for the next tier (class tier) after which, you went back to whichever you wanted to. later on in the content (after the AA system was WELL established), there were "hard" passives and abilities in the class (the last tree) and they added a new tier for the expansion that were based on dealing with particular mob mechanics. this didn't matter though since the class teir, by this time became the new "general tier" in that by that point you already had a fair amount of investment into the system. realistically the best option was to have those AA but if you didn't you weren't doomed to failure, you just had to focus on gear/tactics. more importantly (but within reason) always try upper content, otherwise you won't know where to go with your setups. everyone can solo world PVE naked, but you can't do raid bosses naked- experience it, to guide you to the build that works.

they claim they are making level 50's more viable through the spectrum, but i call BS. from VR1 you can already go into craglorn, and though you can't take the world by the horns, you can (with a group) still be viable in some aspects of craglorn (i know because my VR6 DK and my wife's VR1 templar did just fine there duo). also, i stopped repairing my gear when i solo a LONG time ago because the content was too easy. a vr1 with decent gear and skill setup shouldn't have massive issues in all the silver sections. i know this because once crafting writs came out, i needed a quiet place to farm alchemy items, that still had good experience, and that happened to be the VR4 zone (i had to go through the VR5 zone to get to the VR4 one). you can't get to gold without doing silver so by design you are forced to advance above the silver zones.

ultimately all the CS is, is a much longer winded VR grind that will more than likely hose purest-PVPers the most.

Enodoc

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

*sigh* seriously, are you a paid to post?.....

okay that bold is pure (naive) speculation so heres mine. silver will be geared for level 50 with 0-100CP; gold will be geared for level 50 with 100-200 CP; craglorn will be geared for level 50 with 200+CP

see how they can still get you to grind, make a power gap between fresh 50 and old 50, note how you still can't just walk into DSA or trials? i just threw numbers out for CPs so yall can just insert whatever CP numbers you like, you will still be forced to grind something for more power "progression".

edit: its not more power its "progression"

I don't think it would be possible for them to gear content based on number of CPs; there's such a wide range of passives to choose from that it would not be viable.

the main point was to guppet because he/she keeps posting that with no VRs that level 50s are going to just drop into the end game content with out any need to gear up/gain CPs/anything. i find it highly unlikely that they will make it feasible for a fresh 50 to be able to just hop into end game content withOUT having to grind anything

however, it would depend greatly on how they set the system up, which i don't know enough of to base any theories off of, and the mob mechanics they plan to put in. this isn't a new system by any stretch, and i have experienced the same in EQ with AA and though you didnt need ALL the AA's but you would have to greatly compensate with gear and then higher end content did start requiring specific abilities/passives from mid to deep within the system.

for example:
you need a teir 3 ability that increases block mitigation by 100% for 5 seconds. to get teir three you must first spend 10 points in tier 1 and then 15 points into tier 2. that would sum up to a total of 25 points before having the needed teir 3 ability.

Is that a "hard" requirement, as it were? As in, you cannot do whatever thing until you have that ability, or is it a "very recommended" requirement, without which you'd probably be screwed but would still be able to try the content?
I agree that there will likely be some form of progression measure which makes, say, Silver Zone 5 harder than Silver Zone 1, but I think one of the main purposes of ZOS doing this is so that people can be reasonably viable in all endgame content as soon as they hit 50; that's both Silver and Gold, Craglorn, Cyrodiil, and the lower Vet Dungeons and Trials. You'd need a bit of CP progression to be able to do the higher Dungeons and Trials, DSA, etc, but you wouldn't need to do Silver and Gold before Craglorn.

It's basically a question of making sure there is still a semblance of progression within content types, while making sure there is not a requirement between content types before you're viable for that content.

For example:
Player --- Solo PvE --- Group PvE ---- PvP ---- Vet Dungs ---- Trials ---- DSA
New 50 -- S&G T1 --- Lower Crag --- Cyrodiil --- All (ex. CoA) -- HRC, AA -- Norm
Adv 50 --- S&G T5 --- Upper Crag --- Cyrodiil --- All inc. CoA ---- SO ---- Vet

"Adv 50" refers to a Level 50 player who has advanced some way ahead of the "New 50" player who just hit 50.
S&G T1/T5 refer to Silver and Gold Tier 1 and Tier 5 zones. (The rest of those fit in between.)

Edit: Trying to align stuff vertically does not work too well

i have found that end-game content is a grey area between a "hard requirement" and a "very recommended requirement". some aspects, are going to be "its required" and others won't be. with the AA system in EQ the first tier (general teir) were more stat based (strength, dexterity, agility) and they were only hard required in that you needed them to get to the next tier (archetype tier), which was required for the next tier (class tier) after which, you went back to whichever you wanted to. later on in the content (after the AA system was WELL established), there were "hard" passives and abilities in the class (the last tree) and they added a new tier for the expansion that were based on dealing with particular mob mechanics. this didn't matter though since the class teir, by this time became the new "general tier" in that by that point you already had a fair amount of investment into the system. realistically the best option was to have those AA but if you didn't you weren't doomed to failure, you just had to focus on gear/tactics. more importantly (but within reason) always try upper content, otherwise you won't know where to go with your setups. everyone can solo world PVE naked, but you can't do raid bosses naked- experience it, to guide you to the build that works.

they claim they are making level 50's more viable through the spectrum, but i call BS. from VR1 you can already go into craglorn, and though you can't take the world by the horns, you can (with a group) still be viable in some aspects of craglorn (i know because my VR6 DK and my wife's VR1 templar did just fine there duo). also, i stopped repairing my gear when i solo a LONG time ago because the content was too easy. a vr1 with decent gear and skill setup shouldn't have massive issues in all the silver sections. i know this because once crafting writs came out, i needed a quiet place to farm alchemy items, that still had good experience, and that happened to be the VR4 zone (i had to go through the VR5 zone to get to the VR4 one). you can't get to gold without doing silver so by design you are forced to advance above the silver zones.

ultimately all the CS is, is a much longer winded VR grind that will more than likely hose purest-PVPers the most.

Yeah that makes sense. I was in a group of 3 (me at VR1 and the others at VR2 and VR4) and we managed to do a bit of Craglorn. Although we did have to draft in a VR14 when we went into one of the dungeons required for a story quest.

I'm hoping that one of the things that will result in this flattening of Veteran content is that you won't have to complete Silver before you can start Gold; a lot of people want to be able to either do the alliances in either order or just do the side quests and not the story quests.

Gogog Bloodthroat

Lied wrote: »

Gogog Bloodthroat wrote: »

all i see here is people who didn't wanna put the time in like everyone else to reach top level.Who want to sit back and let zos *** over the ones that did and boost the lazy people to the same level cause "it's not fair"

I think that's somewhat accurate.

I'd also wager there are people here who paid their dues, reached the top, and wouldn't willingly compromise the integrity of their efforts even if it did help ESOs future and keep the game from going F2P.

i agree changes should be made,but to completely remove vr to make a vr1 who didn't wanna level at the same level as a vr14 who did put the time in is ***

Naivefanboi

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Soo youre not gonna make the exact same argument about champion points?
They dont have (xyz ) points, so were not taking them lol
Its the same difference really, just makes alts more enjoyable
And most importantly now people dont have to see someone 10 levels higher then them, cause they played more .... ,,,,,,
Rofl sad honestly but ZOS made it a best of both worlds solution so it works for me

Valencer

Go into the game right now and try to get into a PUG for the trials or pledges as a vr1. Or vr2. Or vr5. Half the LFM ads in zone chat explicitely state they only want vr14s and a large part of the rest will tell you they'd rather have a vr14 when you ask if you can join them.

We've been playing like this for 9 months and it's been made more than clear that the current system just doesn't work for many, many people. Now we're getting closer to the removal of the veteran ranks in favor of the champion system and suddenly it's a bad idea to remove them? Veteran ranks have been getting criticized over and over for 9 months.

PvPers feel forced to grind to vr14 before they go into Cyrodiil. PvEers have 2 options: grind to vr14 or quest slowly to vr14 (100+ hours) through enemy alliance zones which a lot of people really dislike doing. Doing this again for any alts. It adds very little to the game except for an unneeded uphill battle of endless boredom. Why shouldn't we rejoice that we're getting a supposedly more engaging progression system which won't instantly categorize us into "max rank" and "not max rank"?

What's going to change in terms of actual gameplay? Maybe not so much, since the CS is still a form of progression. But it sounds like a much more fun system that gives you interesting and diverse bonuses to shoot for while not overpowering you once you finally unlock them.

Will it succeed where veteran ranks didn't? Difficult to guess, but it's hard to do worse than veteran ranks have done so far.

blackweb

Minack wrote: »

Grinding out veteran ranks is as appealing as an overflowing dumpster. Encouraging players to do it for multiple alts should be classified as a crime against humanity. It's just too bad that it took ZOS half a year to finally listen to their players.

I am not looking forward to Cadwell's Silver, Gold and Craglorn on my Nightblade. But with about 100 skill points at stake, what choice do I have?

Kragorn

This seems a pretty pointless necro.

Warraxx

I want to pvp with the Titanborn axe... because it looks really cool.

Seraphyel

Serious question?

VR is the WORST progression system that was ever brought into an AAA MMORPG. The whole idea behind it is just *meh*. And for the worst part, Zenimax implementation of the VR thing is even worse.

1. You are questing the exact same quests and the exact same stuff like the other factions, there is absolutely NO story to describe why you are now killing your faction brothers & sisters, there is no logic behind the fact that anchors are still there although you defeated Molag Bal, it's just lore breaking

2. Where you made 10 levels you know make 1. Feeling? Horrible.

3. Most things give very low EP, some quests give you 1k / 1kk - lol? PvP gives you nearly no EP etc.

4. The whole feeling doing VR1-14 is just awful.

5. You need more reasons?

LonePirate

Seraphyel wrote: »

Serious question?

VR is the WORST progression system that was ever brought into an AAA MMORPG. The whole idea behind it is just *meh*. And for the worst part, Zenimax implementation of the VR thing is even worse.

1. You are questing the exact same quests and the exact same stuff like the other factions, there is absolutely NO story to describe why you are now killing your faction brothers & sisters, there is no logic behind the fact that anchors are still there although you defeated Molag Bal, it's just lore breaking

2. Where you made 10 levels you know make 1. Feeling? Horrible.

3. Most things give very low EP, some quests give you 1k / 1kk - lol? PvP gives you nearly no EP etc.

4. The whole feeling doing VR1-14 is just awful.

5. You need more reasons?

Serious answer?

Are you suggesting players continue to play through these zones after defeating Molag Bal but not gain any level progression? Or should players not be able to play this content with one character? I don't think either of those are viable alternatives.

Seraphyel

LonePirate wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

Serious question?

VR is the WORST progression system that was ever brought into an AAA MMORPG. The whole idea behind it is just *meh*. And for the worst part, Zenimax implementation of the VR thing is even worse.

1. You are questing the exact same quests and the exact same stuff like the other factions, there is absolutely NO story to describe why you are now killing your faction brothers & sisters, there is no logic behind the fact that anchors are still there although you defeated Molag Bal, it's just lore breaking

2. Where you made 10 levels you know make 1. Feeling? Horrible.

3. Most things give very low EP, some quests give you 1k / 1kk - lol? PvP gives you nearly no EP etc.

4. The whole feeling doing VR1-14 is just awful.

5. You need more reasons?

Serious answer?

Are you suggesting players continue to play through these zones after defeating Molag Bal but not gain any level progression? Or should players not be able to play this content with one character? I don't think either of those are viable alternatives.

There are many viable alternatives but the current VR thing isn't one.

The whole approach of the VR is just dumb and awful. "Go through the other factions, do EXACTLY the same without reason and story behind it and your reward is a slowed down progression". That's how it is now and that's not working.

VR is the worst part of ESO just because it's poorly designed and poorly implemented.

Egonieser

I'm fine with Vet ranks, as I have played many MMO's and many that are far worse in terms of grinding and long lvling.
ESO is far from being grindy or long.

When i played LoTRO for 6 years, there was a stage (when Mirkwood expac came out) where i had to re-run the same instances about 500 times (not exagerrating) to get 1 piece of gear, without which you are mostly not accepted in any pro end-game raids unless you are in a kinship (guild) that took pity on you and basically carried you. (That is... well... was a game where gating and elitism for end-game content was a major thing, you had to be max at X, Y and Z to be accepted)
And this only kept repeating with every expansion and level cap. It was frustrating for new players to do anything end-game unless, like i mentioned, you have a friendly bunch of people who would carry you, which in turn ended up in tons of failures because if even one person messed up or wasn't strong enough, it ended up in a full wipe.

Of course, it's not the same as CP grind or Vet grind, but each game has it's own version of "end-game", be it gear, stats, etc etc. And ESO's is far from being the worst.
And the older the game is, bigger the grind is and any person who has some kind of experience in MMO games will know this, it's only common sense.

Many (not saying all) who complain here about both CP and Vet ranks are usually inexperienced gamers, casual gamers, impatient gamers, gamers new to MMO's or just plain sourpuss'es who complain about everything and everyone.

Could the system be implemented and tweaked better? I guess so. But is it so gamebreaking and unachievable as so many claim it to be? Far from it. Can't comment about CP, as it is a new concept and not been around long enough to fully judge, but personally, i see no problem in such a system as it is far less intensive and "grindy" as some games have.

I am a casual gamer these days due to having young children and work, but even just dilly-dallying in the game and not even playing seriously I gain enough Vet EXP/CP's... Faster than i actually expected with my playstyle TBH.

I use other game's mechanics, progression systems and pacing as a point of comparison when i play and judge the game and to me - it is going fine. Whereas in a game like LoTRO, which is over 7 yrs old now, has TONS of content and maps/dungeons/stuff to do - it just feels too entirely grindy in it's own right as the content has been dumbed down to a braindead monkey's level, it's all about questing lots, fast and fluid. And it's just so people can fly through to max level and start the end-game grind ASAP. (This is what happens when devs listen too much to the community and try to please them, while ruining the game in the process)
What ESO did in terms of PvE nerfs and dumb-downs is nothing in comparison lol.

Anyway...
Say what you want, complain all you want, but nobody will convince me that Vet ranks are a bad idea, in my book it's totally normal. Have 2 vet rank chars on EU/NA and managing perfectly fine, even playing casually. In fact it's a shame there's only 14 ranks, as I will soon hit that cap and it'll be a shame.

P.S. This is just MY PERSONAL OPINION, by no means i press my opinion on others. But I am a quite old-school gamer who saw this industry growing from the very ground up, and a gamer that has played many MMO's where progression = grind. So what i see here is just a honeypot in comparison, so i find it difficult to see an issue here, but guess people are different and want different things.

LonePirate

Seraphyel wrote: »

The whole approach of the VR is just dumb and awful. "Go through the other factions, do EXACTLY the same without reason and story behind it and your reward is a slowed down progression". That's how it is now and that's not working.

Removing veteran ranks does not fix the problems you cite. If veteran ranks are removed, players would receive even fewer rewards (via fewer attributes and skill points) than what they receive now for completing this content. If you remove veteran ranks and prevent players from accessing this content, then you are denying them all of the skill points, quests, gold, loot and XP for skills they could earn in these zones. Neither of these possibilities are better than the current system.

So what is one of these better alternatives which you say exists? How time or work intensive would it be to justify putting other things on hold in order to implement it? Something would have to be sacrificed in order to fit your changes into the project schedule. That cost alone makes the removal of veteran ranks a foolish decision from my vantage point.

The best and likely easiest solution I have heard for the veteran ranks "problem" is the reduction of the amount of XP required for each new level to 250K (down from the current 1M). If 75% of the level grind is eliminated, then a large number of complaints are eliminated along with it.

Guppet

They could just not let you do the opposing factions quests/zones at all. You want to do those quests, roll that faction. Very very simple. You want to play multiple factions on one character, go read up on factions in other MMO's to see how many games ever let you do that dumb idea!

eventide03b14a_ESO

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Some people want progression to be COMPLETELY removed from this game.

I'm one of those people. I really wish it was a sandbox.

Mordack

DDuke wrote: »

Veteran Ranks = pointless, boring grind

They brought essentially nothing to the game & made no sense story wise, seeming much more like a band-aid fix to the lack of end game content (still an issue).

I'd have preferred (and this is what I first thought they would be like) if the VR zones had different versions with different quests/quest hubs depending which Alliance you are playing.

E.g. a DC character in Stonefalls would get quests from a separate DC outpost there, focused on destroying EP forces & other shenanigans.

Instead we got a lazy time-travel/alternate universe cliche, which is 100% same experience you'd get on an alt of different faction.

And where you become a traitor to your faction. I had to skip all the Stonefalls quests and just head straight to Deshaan because all the main quests seemed to involve killing DC soldiers. My TES character has always been fairly loyal to Daggerfall and isn't going to sabotage the Covenant for insignificant amounts of gold and experience.

Seraphyel

LonePirate wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

The whole approach of the VR is just dumb and awful. "Go through the other factions, do EXACTLY the same without reason and story behind it and your reward is a slowed down progression". That's how it is now and that's not working.

Removing veteran ranks does not fix the problems you cite. If veteran ranks are removed, players would receive even fewer rewards (via fewer attributes and skill points) than what they receive now for completing this content. If you remove veteran ranks and prevent players from accessing this content, then you are denying them all of the skill points, quests, gold, loot and XP for skills they could earn in these zones. Neither of these possibilities are better than the current system.

So what is one of these better alternatives which you say exists? How time or work intensive would it be to justify putting other things on hold in order to implement it? Something would have to be sacrificed in order to fit your changes into the project schedule. That cost alone makes the removal of veteran ranks a foolish decision from my vantage point.

The best and likely easiest solution I have heard for the veteran ranks "problem" is the reduction of the amount of XP required for each new level to 250K (down from the current 1M). If 75% of the level grind is eliminated, then a large number of complaints are eliminated along with it.

Removing veteran ranks should not only be "remove only the VR progression". It must be something different, an approach that completely alters the game after you hit 50.

If you just remove the leveling system from VR1-14, you don't solve anything. The real issue is the whole gameplay beyond 50 and not just the type of leveling progression.

Enodoc

Mordack wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Veteran Ranks = pointless, boring grind

They brought essentially nothing to the game & made no sense story wise, seeming much more like a band-aid fix to the lack of end game content (still an issue).

I'd have preferred (and this is what I first thought they would be like) if the VR zones had different versions with different quests/quest hubs depending which Alliance you are playing.

E.g. a DC character in Stonefalls would get quests from a separate DC outpost there, focused on destroying EP forces & other shenanigans.

Instead we got a lazy time-travel/alternate universe cliche, which is 100% same experience you'd get on an alt of different faction.

And where you become a traitor to your faction. I had to skip all the Stonefalls quests and just head straight to Deshaan because all the main quests seemed to involve killing DC soldiers. My TES character has always been fairly loyal to Daggerfall and isn't going to sabotage the Covenant for insignificant amounts of gold and experience.

I agree with regards to the grunt soldiers, as they were just following orders, but I personally enjoyed bringing the General to justice. In my head-canon, Emeric had sent me out to Stonefalls to investigate the underhanded methods of a rogue cell, the leaders of which were to be brought to justice by any means if evidence of necromancy was uncovered.

Darkintellect

LonePirate wrote: »

I honestly do not understand the rationale for removing veteran ranks. Why are people salivating over and anticipating this change?

The game needs a vertical progression system, even if it is frozen for long periods of time such as with the current VR14 cap. It is impractical to leave the max level at 50 ad infinitum because the game will become static and not offer any progression - which is undesirable for its own reasons.

The current VR system is implemented and understood by most players. Plus, it allows for easy future expansions without radically overhauling the current system. If ZOS goes to all of the effort to remove veteran ranks, exactly how would the game expand in the future? ZOS would need to undo some, if not most of the work it would need to do in order to remove them in the first place. That's a waste of time.

With all of the far more important things ZOS needs to complete - Imperial City, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Spellcrafting, Housing, Consoles, Wrothgar, etc. - removing veteran ranks will only delay those far more important additions to the game. Aren't those things more important than removing veteran ranks?

I understand people may dislike all of the time and effort needed to reach the current max level; but this is a game that is not intended to be completed in a day or a week or even a month. Who wants to hit level 50 in Coldharbour and then never increase in level again despite the mountains of content that remains to be played after that point?

Removing veteran ranks makes absolutely no sense to me:

I've played around 23 MMO's since as far back as Meridian 59 and one of the issues with a continual level based system is it drives a wedge between the player base. It makes it so people of various levels cannot play with each other unless they are within a proper level range, otherwise it nearly eliminates experience or challenge.

Let's say they add 10 more levels with an expansion. You have to increase the difficulty and attributes of the content to remain challenging for the player. Then adjust it a tad more difficult so you know that higher level means more challenging content. This is simply creating a problem (leveling to gain power) and answering it with a solution (increasing the power of the content).

The problem with that is, you as a developer should not have added the problem to begin with.

Instead, it should be where content becomes more challenging but give you a method for progressing your character without arbitrarily inflating values for the sake of "I get to level up". Essentially, leveling a champion point gives a similar reward.

Skill based systems work, but can lead to poor optimization, a level based system can produce the WoW effect where you are now level 90 and only a few zones are populated because everything else is trivial.

ESO is finding a balance and it works, however, Veteran Rank is a poorly thought out system, luckily they went about on the hugely successful system from Everquest called Alternate Advancement. That is essentially where this idea came about in an MMO.

...and guess what, it worked.

ZRage

Veteran ranks were not a bad idea, just the rest of the things along with it caused too much blockers.

For instance, gear = you are blocked unless you get VR14, I honestly prefer games where the gear power is locked under difficulity / rarity of item than level cap

Zones - Here you go there are 10+ zones you got access at veteran rank to explore but when you level up there is no point in moving back and grind some other places.

Therefore the progression just feel much more slower and dull. If there weren't so many blockers then people who focus more on economical / exploration side of the game wouldn't stay behind grinders. But it is how it is.

Hypertionb14_ESO

horrible slow grind...

thats why.

zeuseason

Technically end game doesn't start till the end of the final level in a MMO. So theoretically, ESO's end game doesn't start till VR14 which requires about 360 hours of VR content to achieve. This is too tedious for most MMO'ers to enjoy end game.

Skjoldur

As long as there are veteran ranks I will never level an alt to max rank. If this game didn't have classes, the idea of going through the other 2 factions to get to max rank would have been brilliant, because you only have to do it once. But doing this again for each other class is just annoying and boring.

Ashigaru

LonePirate wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

Because veteran ranks were a stupid unneeded addition which bloats the current level system.

Honestly I don't see how people can even question the removal of these ranks.

Unless you were one of the Beta testers in early to mid 2013, then you never played the game when veteran ranks did not exist. Your profile indicates you are not one of those people. You are in no position to say they are an unneeded addition because you have no experience of when they did not exist.

And while this is not directed specifically at you, are people unaware of the template system in the PTS that allows you to create a brand new VR14 character? Why aren't people clamoring for this option to be implemented, especially those complaining about the hassle of levelling alts? Wouldn't that be a better use of ZOS' limited time than a complete overhaul of the game?

I agree if you have a vet rank character there should be no reason to have to regrind all the bogus stuff you just went through but on an alt. They should give vr players a leg up on alts be it lvl 30 or 50, having to go through all the hassle of leveling and the story line again on an alt when you have just completed it all on your main is silly.

Also i am wondering what they are going to give to VR players when they remove the levels, are they going to give the equal of the xp in champ points or what, speaking as a VR player i will be pissed if they dont do some kind of trade off when they are removed.

technohic

Its just the tedious time sync, particularly if I want to level an alt.

Of course, I think I would rather have VR ranks than champion points if given a choice, as at least VR ranks cap for a while rather than give a permanent feeling of having to be earning points most efficiently.

I think they should go back to VR and tie champion points to them rather than stats. You can give VR14 stats now as soon as someone hits VR1 and then each VR rank would instead give 10 champion points per. So 140 at VR14 and stay capped at that a while, until they release the next 2 VR levels again. Enlightenment can then work for earning VR ranks. The idea here, is making a cap on it at times where there is an end game level and at the same time, you are pretty close to VR14 when hitting VR1 while still being able to close the gap and at the same time; VR14 (or whatever the max is) will have some extras.

Tomg999

I'm kind of confused about the argument against veteran ranks. I understand hating the grind and time it takes and repetitiveness of getting to VR14, but I am unclear as to the advocated vision of a VR-less future.

Regardless of the mechanism to achieve the difference - CP, gear, access to sets, etc - there will be SOME gap between those who have played and achieved a lot (todays VR14) and those who are new to Lvl 50, playing skill aside. Are you saying:
- They will essentially nerf the advanced player, so that it will be a much smaller gap?
- The gap will be more horizontal, and thus players will differ less in their overall power?
- It will be the same gap, only you will have difficulty telling another players equivalent "level"
- It will be the same gap, but you will have a wider range of options as to how to get there?

Folkb

the first mass exodus of players from ESO was roughly 2 mo's after release. That's when most people hit the VET ranks.

Morshire

I am not sure that I want to go through another huge change. Don't get me wrong...VR should have been gone BEFORE they released the CS. The longer they wait, the worse it is going to be. Just think of how drastically the game changed with this update. Now, people are finally getting back to where they were before 1.6 (Or close). Just when we get comfortable again, ZOS will yank the VR and characters will be set back yet another time.

I have kept my alts low level because the prospect of doing it all over again is just more than I want to face in a game. I don't want VR removed because it sucks....well the grind does....but more because ZOS said they were removing them and having to speculate on what I will need to do seems like I am lost in limbo. So why should I want to work my way through something that will have 0 impact for me later. That is the epitome of a waste of time.

Personally, at this stage of the game, I am not sure that removing the VR would be something I would want to go through. Re-learning my characters all over again doesn't sound appealing. I realize that this is a fluid environment (meaning MMO's in general) but this is more than a tweak here or there. CS is almost a new game, and removing the VR will constitute about the same.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Soulshine

The vast majority of complaints about Veteran Rank play had nothing to do with the mere ranks in of themselves but rather the obvious lack of sufficient content to support them, and the pitifully slow progression of XP to advance them.

The promised Phase 4 removal of veteran ranks and the addition of Season gear to address itemization still remains an unknown ETA as does the Imperial City, let alone the much advertised and discussed Spell Crafting System which was supposed to add depth to players' builds but now seems virtually all but a distant pipedream.

The Champion System is just another system of passives to aim for while completing vet content which will keep some people very busy. Others may choose to not engage it at all until such time as there is something more interesting to do than repeating the long wore out groove in known content already completed.

ItsGlaive

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Most people didn't like the Veteran rank, cause basically it's 14 more level, that separate players, and spread grouping possibilities.
The Veteran ranks have been added as an artificial way to increase the longevity of the game, but it was not well thoughs and didn't met a lot of enthousiasm.

Most of my friend stopped to play once they reach the veteran ranks cause they didn't enjoyed to be forced into the "other faction" questing with their main character.

The removal of the Veteran ranks and the addition of the Champion system will improve greatly the end game life of the players, and make things more interesting as players once they reach lvl 50 will have tons of activities to choose from instead of being forced into few....

Wrong. People will still need to do the other factions for skill points and likely will want to do them for all that XP to earn CP. Not to mention skyshards and achievements.

There is a way around this though. Lock the factions, make it so you need to roll a character in a given faction to play that content (as it should have been anyway). And increase the skill point rewards from quests, plus reduce the number of skyshards needed for a skill point to make up for the lost quests and shards. Sorted.