Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

FENGRUSH

I dont recall Harbinger ever being such a *** on psijic forums.

darkuniab14_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

So how do you fix it?
1. Increase the cost of Dark Talons to make it less spammable.
2. Make it so that dodge rolling out of an immobilize grants CC immunity for a short duration, just like the CC break system currently does.
3. Reduce the radius of Dark Talons so that a dodge roll takes you out of it unless the DK moves in your direction.

4. Cancel Sub. Uninstall. GG. You just beat ESO.

beravinprb19_ESO

I've already said my piece, so I'm just here to point out a little detail. At VR6, I can use Dark Talons 3 times before I run out of magicka. If I buff myself with magicka food, then I can pull out a 4th. I fail to see how a VR9 with no gear, attributes or buffs can use it 6+ times.

FENGRUSH

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

I've already said my piece, so I'm just here to point out a little detail. At VR6, I can use Dark Talons 3 times before I run out of magicka. If I buff myself with magicka food, then I can pull out a 4th. I fail to see how a VR9 with no gear, attributes or buffs can use it 6+ times.

Your build is probably pretty ***. You can get up to 8 talons or so without much effort. Saying you can only drop 3, is a pretty bad argument anyway.

Alandauron

Still_Mind wrote: »

The exaggeration being that you blow it out of proportion.

First, yes, your facts are true, but their significance is........ dependent a lot on the context.

So let's do this.

First, what is it that Dark Talons does? It holds you in place for 4 seconds. That's it. No instant death. No heavy damage. No being completely shut down.

So, he stacked DoTs on you and is kiting you with Talons? Well, there are ranged setups against that. He roots you in a pool of heavy ground-based damage? He and his buddies lock your clustered group, spamming synergy? Congratulations, you're fighting on the terms of the enemy, and Sun Tzu wouldn't approve of that, would he?

So I ask you this - where's the urgent need to roll out\break each single instance of Talons? Do you really absolutely need to break it each time you're affected by it? Or it's some sort of psychological compulsion for freedom?

DK is has a very defined combat niche. PBAoE. That's what he is. A choke point class. Cluster vs cluster, yes, DKs have an advantage. But that's what the Eight Divines gave us brains for, right?

This really reminds me of the whole "Smash" outcries in SWToR. Basically, Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors could spec into a heavy guaranteed crit PBAoE skill (usable once in 9-12 secs). A lone Warrior\Knight did lay perfectly manageable pressure, but when stacked, they could decimate clusters of players in one charge. Stupid players died to them and cried nerf. Smart players simply avoided being clustered and killed them with ease.

Also, you seem to be very passionate about the issue. I'd suggest you step away for a couple of days to approach it with a clear head. Dark Talons, by far, isn't the biggest balancing issue in ESO PvP.

And this has been explained before in previous posts. Yes, in order to be effective you DO have to get out of the talons. As you said, "Don't fight on the enemies terms." When they jump you from stealth while you're moving from one place to the other it is vital to get out of their grasp so that you can fight on your terms instead of theirs. But due to dark talons being spammable good luck doing that.

• Dark Talons can be cast 2-3 times more than you can dodge roll
• Dark talons is a root(basically a CC but you can still attack)
• You can't turn around if in Dark Talons(so they can just hit you from behind and not take damage tmeself)
• Dark Talons does damage over time
• Dark Talons doesn't have to be aimed(just run in the middle and hit that button)
• Dark Talons has a wider radius than you can dodge roll
• There is no immunity
• It cannot be blocked
• Once applied even good players can't get away(except sorcs with bolt escape)

I am very aware there are SEVERAL other issues affecting this game's balance, but Dark Talons is one that is being completely overlooked by the devs. So just because other things are broke worse I'm supposed to allow this one broken skill to go unnoticed? I don't think so.

Plenty of others are talking about how a large portion of NB skills are currently broken so I can leave that to them. Plenty are raging about the vampire bats OPness and how that mixed with mist form allows them to heal while immune to almost everything.(@Carde, by the way, the vampire batswarm is completely broken but I can kill these guys too. So obviously it's not broken right? Wrong.)

Dark Talons has been overlooked, it's not an I Win button, no, but it is broken. No other skill comes close to being as effective as this, no other skill completely ignores game balancing mechanics the way this one does. Sure there's other roots, but those actually require some form of skill to effectively utilize, and ADDING A 5-7 SECOND IMMUNITY AFTER DODGE ROLL will not destroy the usefulness of any of the roots. It merely makes it to where they can't be spammed to a point of brokenness.

• DO NOT take away any damage
• DO NOT lower the radius
• DO NOT shorten the time
• DO NOT change anything else
• JUST add a short immunity

@Still_Mind, I'm passionate about this game and how great it could be. I'm not looking to encourage a zerg fest, but currently if I'm caught in broken talons there is no escape because I'm not a sorc specced into bolt escape. This is wrong. Arguments against the short immunity just make no sense, there's no reason why a short immunity shouldn't exist for roots as well, especially when it costs more stamina to roll dodge than to CC break.

I also don't want to see them make roll dodge cheaper, I like that it uses a percentage of stamina instead of a set amount. It works for 99% of game functions.

NordJitsu

@Still_Mind‌

Thanks for the compliment on my name.

Of course Dark Talons isn't the biggest balance issue with the game. Right now the biggest problem is, without a doubt, the ability to reduce Ultimate cost to near Zero allowing people to spam Ultimates (most notably Devouring Swarm, but also Dragon Standard, ect.)

A related issue is the fact that Mist Form is free (actually negative cost for people with high regen) and that the healing from Devouring Swarm is currently affecting players in Mist Form (which allows for invincibility for Bats spammers.). I can be at 50% Magicka, cast Elusive Mist about 7 times, and by the end I'm back to 100%. That means I'm literally able to just check out of a fight, take 75% less damage, run away from you, gain immunity to CC, and regen my resources while I do it. This is a problem (and as such I've stopped using this ability, because I consider it exploitative.)

But I consider both of those to be extreme game breaking issues. Dark Talons is in third place. I consider it the biggest problem within normal circumstances, the other two being so extreme.

Also, you're just wrong about the damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL1g9_2Oig

He's hitting for almost 600 damage a tick.

@jman544‌

Retreating Maneuvers is a hard counter, you're correct. Its also a horrible horrible idea in any small scale engagement. Its only worth it in zerg vs. zerg combat.

In a 1v1, 2v2, ect. its going to cost a ridiculous amount of stamina compared to the return you get. You'd honestly be better off just focusing on the dodge rolling. It costs something like 900 stamina at rank 4 I believe.

The problem with the skill is its effectiveness and limited number of counters.

Some form of CC immunity after roll dodge is absolutely needed. Another option would be to touch the skill itself by reducing the radius or damage and increasing the cost, but that's the less preferred option IMO.

Maverick827

FENGRUSH wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

I've already said my piece, so I'm just here to point out a little detail. At VR6, I can use Dark Talons 3 times before I run out of magicka. If I buff myself with magicka food, then I can pull out a 4th. I fail to see how a VR9 with no gear, attributes or buffs can use it 6+ times.

Your build is probably pretty ***. You can get up to 8 talons or so without much effort. Saying you can only drop 3, is a pretty bad argument anyway.

Saying his build is *** and that you can drop 8 is a bad argument.

I can only drop about 3 at VR1 as well. 0 into Magicka I have 1100ish, DT costs 400ish?

NordJitsu

@Maverick827‌

I can't think of any build, especially for a DK, where 1100 Magicka is okay.

Maverick827

It's the "I don't really care as long as I can still level fine, sorry I'm not as h4rdc0r3 as you" build.

- 49 into health
- Green crafted armor
- Vender-bought enchants

I pumped the breaks on the class as soon as I noticed all of the whining and have just been coasting since. Zenimax will likely over nerf DKs to appease the three people who keep making Nerf DK threads, so I've started an alt.

Alandauron

Maverick827 wrote: »

It's the "I don't really care as long as I can still level fine, sorry I'm not as h4rdc0r3 as you" build.

- 49 into health
- Green crafted armor
- Vender-bought enchants

I pumped the breaks on the class as soon as I noticed all of the whining and have just been coasting since. Zenimax will likely over nerf DKs to appease the three people who keep making Nerf DK threads, so I've started an alt.

3 people...right.

I don't want them to nerf DK at all. I want them to "fix" this one skill. Everything else can remain the exact same. The dark talons/standard will still be very viable for trash PUGs that spam stamina skills and use up all their stamina so they aren't able to dodge roll. It will still be viable against non trash PUGs as well, you just have to keep track of how long before you can recast it.

DKs will require a bit more skill is all. You will have to smartly utilize other skills until you can charge/talon/standard once again. You have reflective scales, whip, etc. for maintaining yourself until your favorite combo is useful again.

FENGRUSH

Maverick827 wrote: »

It's the "I don't really care as long as I can still level fine, sorry I'm not as h4rdc0r3 as you" build.

- 49 into health
- Green crafted armor
- Vender-bought enchants

I pumped the breaks on the class as soon as I noticed all of the whining and have just been coasting since. Zenimax will likely over nerf DKs to appease the three people who keep making Nerf DK threads, so I've started an alt.

Definately hardcore to amp mana after seeing how effectively you can cap/tank in light armor early on.

You can use whatever build you want. But the crappy build you are using is not what is leading people to complain about DKs talons.

Maverick827

The discussion was about a naked VR9 with no attribute points spent being able to use the skill seven times. I posted the numbers of an essentially naked (no points in Magicka) VR1 being able to use it three times, after a geared and buffed VR6 posted simar results numbers.

So yes, it is absolutely hardcore/d00d/*** grandstanding to criticize the build given the proposed setup, because only an *** would say that having the bare minimum magicka in an experiment requiring the bare minimum magicka is wrong, the insinuation being he is so awesome that he would somehow have more.

Alandauron

Maverick827 wrote: »

The discussion was about a naked VR9 with no attribute points spent being able to use the skill seven times. I posted the numbers of an essentially naked (no points in Magicka) VR1 being able to use it three times, after a geared and buffed VR6 posted simar results numbers.

So yes, it is absolutely hardcore/d00d/*** grandstanding to criticize the build given the proposed setup, because only an *** would say that having the bare minimum magicka in an experiment requiring the bare minimum magicka is wrong, the insinuation being he is so awesome that he would somehow have more.

No awesomeness...though it is a completely different build(patch) in the PTS so maybe they reduced the cost of Dark Talons in there, or it is bugged somehow. Anywho, used it 6-7 times with no armor/skill points.

Take it how you want, I can't test it in live because I don't want to be a DK, but others in my guild report being able to use it more than 3 times with their builds, not heavy magicka builds either.

Still_Mind

Alandauron wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

The exaggeration being that you blow it out of proportion.

First, yes, your facts are true, but their significance is........ dependent a lot on the context.

So let's do this.

First, what is it that Dark Talons does? It holds you in place for 4 seconds. That's it. No instant death. No heavy damage. No being completely shut down.

So, he stacked DoTs on you and is kiting you with Talons? Well, there are ranged setups against that. He roots you in a pool of heavy ground-based damage? He and his buddies lock your clustered group, spamming synergy? Congratulations, you're fighting on the terms of the enemy, and Sun Tzu wouldn't approve of that, would he?

So I ask you this - where's the urgent need to roll out\break each single instance of Talons? Do you really absolutely need to break it each time you're affected by it? Or it's some sort of psychological compulsion for freedom?

DK is has a very defined combat niche. PBAoE. That's what he is. A choke point class. Cluster vs cluster, yes, DKs have an advantage. But that's what the Eight Divines gave us brains for, right?

This really reminds me of the whole "Smash" outcries in SWToR. Basically, Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors could spec into a heavy guaranteed crit PBAoE skill (usable once in 9-12 secs). A lone Warrior\Knight did lay perfectly manageable pressure, but when stacked, they could decimate clusters of players in one charge. Stupid players died to them and cried nerf. Smart players simply avoided being clustered and killed them with ease.

Also, you seem to be very passionate about the issue. I'd suggest you step away for a couple of days to approach it with a clear head. Dark Talons, by far, isn't the biggest balancing issue in ESO PvP.

And this has been explained before in previous posts. Yes, in order to be effective you DO have to get out of the talons. As you said, "Don't fight on the enemies terms." When they jump you from stealth while you're moving from one place to the other it is vital to get out of their grasp so that you can fight on your terms instead of theirs. But due to dark talons being spammable good luck doing that.

• Dark Talons does damage over time
• There is no immunity
• Once applied even good players can't get away(except sorcs with bolt escape)

You can CC right back, Rapid Maneuver offers immunity. You can get away by counter-CCing, or using Rapid Maneuver.

Other than that, I fully agree that dodge-roll should offer short root\snare immunity.

Alandauron

Still_Mind wrote: »

You can CC right back, Rapid Maneuver offers immunity. You can get away by counter-CCing, or using Rapid Maneuver.

And as @NordJitsu stated already, Rapid Maneuver is only a viable solution in zerg vs zerg, or large group vs large group. It's not worth the slot it occupies when in a small group, dark talons is VERY worth the limited slot space due to how much it offers.

So those solutions still don't prevent the dark talons skill from being broken, while counterable, it's still broken.

Still_Mind wrote: »

Other than that, I fully agree that dodge-roll should offer short root\snare immunity.

This is all anyone is asking for in this thread(ok maybe there are those that believe the skill needs to be nerfed into uselessness). The people making solid thought out arguments are only wanting to see root skills be treated the same as CC, because otherwise roots as a whole are broken and among roots Dark Talons is KING.

Lulufia

Talons is the biggest crutch in crutch town.

Crescent

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Still_Mind‌

Thanks for the compliment on my name.

Of course Dark Talons isn't the biggest balance issue with the game. Right now the biggest problem is, without a doubt, the ability to reduce Ultimate cost to near Zero allowing people to spam Ultimates (most notably Devouring Swarm, but also Dragon Standard, ect.)

A related issue is the fact that Mist Form is free (actually negative cost for people with high regen) and that the healing from Devouring Swarm is currently affecting players in Mist Form (which allows for invincibility for Bats spammers.). I can be at 50% Magicka, cast Elusive Mist about 7 times, and by the end I'm back to 100%. That means I'm literally able to just check out of a fight, take 75% less damage, run away from you, gain immunity to CC, and regen my resources while I do it. This is a problem (and as such I've stopped using this ability, because I consider it exploitative.)

But I consider both of those to be extreme game breaking issues. Dark Talons is in third place. I consider it the biggest problem within normal circumstances, the other two being so extreme.

Also, you're just wrong about the damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL1g9_2Oig

He's hitting for almost 600 damage a tick.

@jman544‌

Retreating Maneuvers is a hard counter, you're correct. Its also a horrible horrible idea in any small scale engagement. Its only worth it in zerg vs. zerg combat.

In a 1v1, 2v2, ect. its going to cost a ridiculous amount of stamina compared to the return you get. You'd honestly be better off just focusing on the dodge rolling. It costs something like 900 stamina at rank 4 I believe.

The problem with the skill is its effectiveness and limited number of counters.

Some form of CC immunity after roll dodge is absolutely needed. Another option would be to touch the skill itself by reducing the radius or damage and increasing the cost, but that's the less preferred option IMO.

What I find even more broken is that he can live through all of that. It's likely no other melee class can do that.

I wish my sorcerer had a heal that was independent of armor type.

Still_Mind

Alandauron wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

You can CC right back, Rapid Maneuver offers immunity. You can get away by counter-CCing, or using Rapid Maneuver.

And as @NordJitsu stated already, Rapid Maneuver is only a viable solution in zerg vs zerg, or large group vs large group. It's not worth the slot it occupies when in a small group, dark talons is VERY worth the limited slot space due to how much it offers.

So those solutions still don't prevent the dark talons skill from being broken, while counterable, it's still broken.

Still_Mind wrote: »

Other than that, I fully agree that dodge-roll should offer short root\snare immunity.

This is all anyone is asking for in this thread(ok maybe there are those that believe the skill needs to be nerfed into uselessness). The people making solid thought out arguments are only wanting to see root skills be treated the same as CC, because otherwise roots as a whole are broken and among roots Dark Talons is KING.

Dunno, I've got my main bar and my utility\GTFO bar, and Maneuver is pulling its weight perfectly, even in some 1v1 scenarios.

Halrloprillalar

the only issue I see is the going past immunities. That definitely needs to be addressed.

jman544

Honestly retreating maneuvers isn't that stamina intensive when you consider it aides your entire group. 840 stamina is a steal to make your group immune to CC for 20 seconds. Don't discount the fact that you can pop it out of combat, wait 2 seconds, and charge in at buffed speed totally immune to CC for the next 15 or more seconds with a full stamina bar. In a group setting, it may be the most cost effective skill in the entire game. I agree rolling is probably more cost efficient in 1v1 combat. The game shouldn't be balanced around 1v1 or 2v2 combat though (if you want that i'd suggest playing a different game because other games do small scale combat much better) ESO was designed around massive group combat, and Retreating Maneuvers shines in exactly those kind of fights.


Honestly, if your in a group one person should have it on their bar, it's that good and if you play around with it enough you will recognize that it's actually almost too good. When more than one person has it on their bar your entire group can jet around at increased speed totally immune to 90% of the CC in the game. If the game didn't have this super powerful skill I would agree that some kind of limited immunity would be necessary. But the skill does exist, so if you want to be immune from CC group up and have everyone sacrifice a skill slot for it. The cost-benefit approach i think provides more balance and is way more interesting that blanket immunity. Before asking for artificial immunity try using the skill, I'd bet that you'd change your mind and no longer think artificial immunity is needed. For people who don't have access to the skill, I agree that CC probably feels to strong but hey nothings stopping you from specing it.

Alandauron

jman544 wrote: »

Honestly retreating maneuvers isn't that stamina intensive when you consider it aides your entire group. 840 stamina is a steal to make your group immune to CC for 20 seconds. Don't discount the fact that you can pop it out of combat, wait 2 seconds, and charge in at buffed speed totally immune to CC for the next 15 or more seconds with a full stamina bar. In a group setting, it may be the most cost effective skill in the entire game. I agree rolling is probably more cost efficient in 1v1 combat. The game shouldn't be balanced around 1v1 or 2v2 combat though (if you want that i'd suggest playing a different game because other games do small scale combat much better) ESO was designed around massive group combat, and Retreating Maneuvers shines in exactly those kind of fights.


Honestly, if your in a group one person should have it on their bar, it's that good and if you play around with it enough you will recognize that it's actually almost too good. When more than one person has it on their bar your entire group can jet around at increased speed totally immune to 90% of the CC in the game. If the game didn't have this super powerful skill I would agree that some kind of limited immunity would be necessary. But the skill does exist, so if you want to be immune from CC group up and have everyone sacrifice a skill slot for it. The cost-benefit approach i think provides more balance and is way more interesting that blanket immunity. Before asking for artificial immunity try using the skill, I'd bet that you'd change your mind and no longer think artificial immunity is needed. For people who don't have access to the skill, I agree that CC probably feels to strong but hey nothings stopping you from specing it.

Your post proves 2 things:

1. retreating Maneuvers is great for large groups(which has already been agreed upon)
2. You didn't actually read the entirety of the thread.

You're arguing just to argue at this point so after this I see no reason to continue repeating myself for your benefit. Dark Talons is broken. All roots are broken to the extent that they can be reapplied over and over, but among them dark talons is the easiest to use and spam. When you can get behind a player that is rooted it becomes a hard CC. Here's a better idea...let's just take away the CC immunity, that way fights just turn into who can hit the button first and faster........

Harbingers

/Dodgeroll

Crescent

The ignore feature can't be implemented soon enough.

Nox_Aeterna

I agree , they nerfed the vampire , which is fine , but anyone can become or not a vampire.

People cant just change class and become a OP DK , so they better fix this also.

LadyChaos

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Another nerf x thread. Please just L2P

he stated how it does not effect HIM, HE has l2p... it's the rest of you who are screwed he is pointing out.

I also am able to only survive this since I got bolt, and I use bolt to get out and do my best to try and heal those trapped or bubble and kill the DK clawing my buddies to death. If bubble isn't up my friends often die (if they don't focus fire the DK) and me not to far from them as I used my magicka to try and save them... in stead of running away like a good sorcerer.

WE have a counter option. Funny enough DKs seem to be top on list to try and nerf the only class able to routinely counter this.

KenjiJU

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Can this thread die? Patch notes prove it was Underpowered which is why it got buffed.

Not here, but I've seen something get buffed in an update, followed by a bigger nerf afterwards. Nothing's final.

Alandauron

KenjiJU wrote: »

Not here, but I've seen something get buffed in an update, followed by a bigger nerf afterwards. Nothing's final.

It's being called a buff for dark talons. All it was really was a fix, now the synergy should work all the time(supposedly). This is good, they need to fix things that are broken, I have no issue with that.

The issue lies in the other mechanics of this ability, now that they have fixed the synergy maybe they will see the need to implement some form of root immunity. I understand the mechanics behind the DK, they are supposed to be the tank class, but they have become the tank/crazy DPS class.

I don't want to see anything else changed about dark talons except an added immunity that way you can at least escape the DK's grasp for a short period of time giving you the opportunity to fight back instead of just instant die after trying to dodge roll twice only to get caught again both times in a spam of Dark Talons.

Alandauron

Harbingers wrote: »

/Dodgeroll

If you aren't rolling a DK anymore why such a passion to keep this skill broken? Is it because you are currently leveling a DK?

Already been stated, you can dodgeroll 1-3 times in a fight, you can cast dark talons 5+ times(this is going off VR 10 which everyone will be at some point). So your "/dodgeroll" comment must be a troll instead of an actual productive argument.

Keep trolling Harbingers.

Rundarek

If all you want is a root immunity after a dodgeroll you should probably stop crying about Talons all the time and just close this Thread (Titled "Broken Talons on Dragon Knight online" instead of "Need root immunity after Dodge").

This whole Thread from title to bottom cries about Talons as OP, DK as OP, DK as Noob Class and then claims that all you want is a root immunity and no nerf to the Skill.

If the Immunity is the issue here then Talons obviously would be fine, so what is it now?

Also i don't see how Talons would make the DK the Tank/DPS class you just claimed it is.

Edit: Just to clarify, i play a DK and wouldn't really have a issue with a short immunity after dodge since i don't spam it anyway.

TrillBilly

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

No its clearly a nerf thread.

You are clearly an idiot who probably use's this and is so afraid it is gonna get nerfed and make you a BADDIE you come to these FIX threads and call them NERF threads get real. GTFO with that dumb ***.