Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

NordJitsu

Its time to talk about Dark Talons. This skill is without a doubt the most broken ability in the game. It is, perhaps, the most broken ability in the history of MMOs.

What is Dark Talons? Well its a smart AoE immobilize with damage over time and a powerful synergy. It can lock down a massive group of enemy player, damage them, and allow team mates to destroy them even more. The amount of AoE synergies that work with this are astounding.

It cannot be blocked. It cannot be CC broken. It cannot be prevented with immunity like Immovable.

If you dodge roll out of it (the only way to escape immobilize) then you can be instantly placed back into it. Why? Because the ability has a range (circular, so radius) of 8 meters and is auto/smart snare.

Dodge roll doesn't take you 8 meters. So what's a good DK to do? If anyone dodge rolls out of Dark Talons, he just presses the ability again. Does he have to aim? Nope. Is there any way for the player to prevent it? Nope. Does the first dodge roll give him immunity to a second application? Nope.

So why is this different than other CC? "Encase" from the Sorcs Dark Magick tree is a good immobilize too right? Well the difference is that Encase is easy to avoid. If you get Encased, you can dodge roll to the left, right, or through the player. In order to reapply, they would have to quickly whip around and aim at you. Not so with Dark Talons. Just press a button, no player skill (or thinking beyond Pavlovian dog reflexes) is needed. You can use this to instantly blow through a players stamina, because two dodge rolls is going to leave them practically unable to block or CC break.

This one ability is making DKs the best Tanks, the best DPS, and the best overall class to have in group PvP.

I know some very high level DKs who have taken to calling this ability "Broken Talons." I stole the title from @Obscure‌ by the way.

Basically, right now, if you're playing a DK and not using Broken Talons, you're doing it wrong.

Everyone who knows there stuff and was in the closed Beta told ZOS about this ability and its imbalance repeatedly. Usually it was said with heavy sarcasm and rolling eyes. It was a bit of a joke.

We thought, "hey, they're smart. They've built a great CC system because they understand how important it is to get CC right. There's no way they're going to let this one slide."

We assumed the ability would be reworked prior to launch because how could it not be? We gave ZOS the benefit of the doubt because it seemed so obvious.

Now the game is out and it seems that they've taken all the lessons they learned and applied to the entire CC system and thrown them out the window with regards to one ability. This ability cannot be blocked, prevented, countered, ect. The only thing you can do is not be near them.

For me, as a sorc, that's not that bad actually. I can Bolt Escape away and THEN dodge roll, which takes me past 8 meters. But if you're a NB or a Temp? Good luck. You're perma locked if these guys ever get near you.

So how do you fix it?

Well there's several options and a mix would probably be best.

1. Increase the cost of Dark Talons to make it less spammable.
2. Make it so that dodge rolling out of an immobilize grants CC immunity for a short duration, just like the CC break system currently does.
3. Reduce the radius of Dark Talons so that a dodge roll takes you out of it unless the DK moves in your direction.

Lets get it done ZOS. Dragon Knights Online isn't going to be a fun game for your other 3 classes.

NordJitsu

Oh forgot to mention 2 more options:

4. Make it blockable
5. Make CC immunity affect it

Think your Mist Form will work? It says "immune to CC effects" right? Not with Broken Talons.

This ability ignores all your immunity.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

For pvp purposes, they should probably add diminishing returns on its duration, and every other CC effect for that matter.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Another nerf x thread. Please just L2P

Coraxcor

Don't demand to nerf that skill while there is a problem in PvP, because it will also affect its use in PvE. If you want to change a skill, always look at both sides, PvP and PvE.

I see, and therefore I agree with you, one problem, and that is there is not any CC imunity once you get hit. You can spam CC in PvP which could result in a stand and fight. Thats a problem which should already be known and many other games introduced mechanisms called "diminishing returns", once you got hit by an CC effect, you are imune for a short duration (maybe some seconds) or the next effect of the same type result in a much shorter duration every time you get hit by it until it drops to zero.

Such a mechanism in PvE would make some (boss) fights even more interesting while mobs are not doomed to stand and die without action while stunned continuously.

NordJitsu

@Coraxcor‌

Ya if you read my solutions, you'll see that they would mostly only apply to PvP (aside from the increased cost which I think is necessary in PvE as well.)

Its mostly about Immunity or Blocking from players. NPCs dont' have those options.

@Ragnar_Lodbrok‌

You've got no idea what you're talking about. This isn't a nerf thread. Its a mechanics change thread. The mechanics supporting Dark Talons need to be changed, but that would affect other types of immobilize as well.

But I can tell you didn't actually read the OP. So if you don't have anything productive to say, I suggest you just stay out of the thread.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

No its clearly a nerf thread.

Supersomething

As a DK I will agree the ability needs to be affected by DR's, and CC breaks for PVP. I do not however think the ability needs to be nerfed in any way that would mess with the PvE side of things.

Increasing the cost I don't think is necessary. I know that as a VR3 tank with all attribute points in HP I can utilize this ability maybe three times back to back with a full mana bar. Now for a DK who put more points in Magicka I can see this being spammed until the cows come home. However, it can only be used on trash and some world bosses, so at the end of the day it is not that big of a deal on the PvE side.

If Zenimax can manage to keep the changes between PvE and PvP separate that would be absolutely fantastic.

Koensol

I agree that the fact it doesn't get affected by CC immunity is absolutely ridiculous. Haven't had that much experience with it yet on the receiving end, but I can imagine this ability being very unbalanced.

Alandauron

@thread. I don't use a Dragon Knight cause I'm one of those silly single target lovers, so I roll a night blade. I know that when a DK shows up in PvP that I need to stay at range and avoid allowing them to close the distance. That being said lets just look at the ability:

-AOE of 8 meters
-Damage over time
-Damage up front
-CC lockdown
-Cannot be blocked
-CC immunity ignored
-Allows synergy

Come on now, what other ability even comes close to that? I'm not necessarily saying that I want to see a nerf, but with these stats why wouldn't you pick a DK and have this ability? I would like to see some abilities for other classes that even come close to this one, or at least abilities that counteract this while also having other effects.

When you are limited to 5 abilities(plus an ult) on each bar and only 2 bars, you have to be smart with what you pick. Broken Talons is a must have, there's nothing else worth picking in comparison.

j3w3l

i would say, with having a cc immunity on dodge that they need to remove the synergy. It makes a strong ability that much stronger with a group but won't hamper a dk's solo ability

dennissomb16_ESO

I do play a DK, but do not PvP in this game (no diminishing returns on CC a major reason) One thing in OP I think is not quite correct. When I use dark talons in PvE, if I do not have my cursor directly on a mob, DT does not go off, so there definetly is some aim to it. Do not know if this is different for PvP

limeli8

make it blockable and breakable like any other cc but leave synergy alone, it is very important for pve

Hexos

Talons is great, it does not need to be touched.

The root problem here is lack of Diminishing returns in PvP...not any one particular skill.

Also, i really don't see the major deal. DKs inherently have HORRIBLE magicka management. If a DK is spamming this then he will have to invest heavily into magicka which means he will be easier to kill. Also, the damage on this is easily healed thru, you can dodge roll out of it, and its only a root so you can still cast spells and attack yourself. Are you melee only? Plus is the Dk is himself Melee then he will be in range anyway.

Armitas

What specifically causes it to be over powered.

It can't be the fact that it takes stamina to roll out of it, because it also takes magic to cast it (420 magic). Spamming it so that you run out of stamina for a CC break also causes the DK to be out of Magic to heal and do class based damage.

Obscure

My preference is less Nerf and more creation of counterplay. If you build properly you should be able to counter any specific thing you have built to counter, this however is not present concerning snare and immobilize mechanics. The direct counterplay to Talon rooting is Rapid Maneuver, but due to it's expensive Stamina cost and removal once you attack it's not a good or sustainable means to counterplay snare and root spam.

Thus I'd prefer a fix that first attempts to balance out missing counterplay elements. First order of business would be implementing a direct counterplay option to match CC immunity such as that from Immovable and basic stun breaking. This would be done by adding a 7 second immunity to snares and immobilizing effects after performing a dodge roll, and the addition of an immunity to snares and immobilizes for 8 seconds when activating the medium armor skill Evasion. This has particular synergy within the morph of the skill which removes snares currently effecting the player, so players would now have the ability to break the immobilize effect and be immune to it for 8 seconds with the additional existing 15% Dodge effect of Shuffle. A direct counterplay option would now exist, and a general mechanic counter from dodge roll would facilitate general counterplay. I Talon root him, he dodges, now I have to pick something else to use for the next 7 seconds.

Once that is implemented, if the problem of resource management becomes an excessive abuse of using a immobilize followed by a stun to force the dodge and stun break to significantly drain player stamina, I'd make an adjustment to both stun breaking and dodging so that it is cheap to do one of each once every 30 seconds, but progressively more expensive to do within that window of 30 seconds. Say the first dodge and stun break you make in 30 seconds is 10% of your total stamina, the second would be 20%, the third 30%, and cap there until you wait 30 seconds to "catch your breath" so to speak, to make it cheap again.

Then if that still isn't working out and Burning Talons is still Broken Talons, I'd then recommend making the skill blockable. If that still doesn't work out, I would reduce the radius to 5m from 8m. At that point, with all of the above in place, getting beaten by Talon spam is a "learn to play" issue that will only be experienced by bad players that deserve to get wrecked until they smash their keyboards and cry like the scrubs they are.

SuperScrubby

I personally think the skill is decent the way it is. The damage from what I've seen when I've use the skill in PvE and PvP isn't that amazing, but then again I go for high burst rather than dots.

However I will agree that the lack of diminishing returns is a problem in this game, one that needs to be addressed especially since it affects PvP directly. PvP is greatly affected by CC's which can literally end a battle before it starts.

People use this skill and someone else just drops an ult and finishes them off. Also with large scale battles the CC is insane so you basically blow all your stam trying to break free of the CC since they last the full length. Too many skills in this game offer some sort of CC and without diminishing return it gets to be ridiculous.

LatinLegacy

Talons alone is not the problem as virtually every Dragonknight that takes PvP seriously does the same one two punch. Dark Talons, which is usually Burning Talons for most followed by Dragonknight Standard or Standard of Might to be more specific. That is when all hell breaks lose for anyone caught in the DK's path. That combination is what put DK's over the top in PvP so I have no doubt changes are going to be made. A majority of emperors or those in the running for it just happen to be DK's so it's not a mystery as to how good the class is.

NordJitsu

LatinLegacy wrote: »

Talons alone is not the problem as virtually every Dragonknight that takes PvP seriously does the same one two punch. Dark Talons, which is usually Burning Talons for most followed by Dragonknight Standard or Standard of Might to be more specific. That is when all hell breaks lose for anyone caught in the DK's path. That combination is what put DK's over the top in PvP so I have no doubt changes are going to be made. A majority of emperors or those in the running for it just happen to be DK's so it's not a mystery as to how good the class is.

Right but that's not inherently a problem. That's just people using skills in a smart way.

Locking people down so you can AoE bomb them is a great strategy and smart tactics. They shouldn't take that away.

What they need to do is give us some option to counter that, because right now there isn't one.


Obscure gave some great examples above.

gnostici

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Another nerf x thread. Please just L2P

L2P = Roll a DK

@armidas‌

One DK can't spam talons constantly, but there's not only one DK on the field. Every opponent can be hit repeatedly. So, it's my stamina versus the magicka of X opponents. Were there a short immunity or if it had a telegraph and could be blocked, then your point would stand.

Armitas

gnostici wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Another nerf x thread. Please just L2P

L2P = Roll a DK

@armidas‌

One DK can't spam talons constantly, but there's not only one DK on the field. Every opponent can be hit repeatedly. So, it's my stamina versus the magicka of X opponents. Were there a short immunity or if it had a telegraph and could be blocked, then your point would stand.

I was not making a point. I was asking a question.

If there are two DKs the problem is not burning talons it's being out numbered, you should die. If we are talking RvR then both sides have equal access to DKs. The raid is balanced.

It is simply the nature of aoe skills from groups that opponents can be hit repeatedly. If there are more players there are more aoes. The skill does have a telegraph, but even though it can't be blocked you can roll out of it.

NordJitsu

@Armitas‌

Please read the OP if you have questions about why its imbalanced. I went into great detail and don't feel like repeating it.

Armitas

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Armitas‌

Please read the OP if you have questions about why its imbalanced. I went into great detail and don't feel like repeating it.

I read the OP but there are a lot of individual points that are also true for many other skills for many classes. I was looking for the specific thing that makes it OP. Or in other words, what is the one thing that tips it over the edge and makes it OP.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Armitas wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Armitas‌

Please read the OP if you have questions about why its imbalanced. I went into great detail and don't feel like repeating it.

I read the OP there are a lot of individual points that are also true for many other skills. I was looking for the specific thing that makes it OP. Or in other words, what is the one thing that tips it over the edge.

Its not op, just baddies complaining as usual.

NordJitsu

@Armitas‌

It was actually full of individual points about what makes the skill different. Basically there is no way for the majority of players to avoid it, counter it, ect.

Cannot be blocked. All other CC besides Encase can be blocked.

Is not affect by CC immunity from any source. All other CC besides Encase is.

Dodging rolling out of it does not prevent immediate reapplication. Encase cannot be reapplied without aiming since it is a cone in front of you, not a circle. Dodge roll does not take you 8 meters which is the radius of the ability.

If you add on top of the inability to avoid, block, or counter it the fact that it is an AoE CC that also does quite a bit of damage and has a group synergy for more damage, you might begin to see the problem.

They've talked in interviews about their goal for the CC system. They want it to be effective, but always able to be countered. If I try to knock you down, stun you, knock you back, off balance you, disorient you, ect. you can press two buttons (left plus right mouse button to break it) and then you get 7secs of immunity to CC effects. They did this because not being able to move in a game isn't very much fun so you should always have options for counter play.

For all those types of CC, you can also use various skills like Mist Form or Immovable that prevent the CC.

That whole system is literally disregarded and ignored with regards to a single skill in the game. This is the only skill with these mechanics.

Armitas

Thanks.

I'll need to think about it some more. I am definitely with you on having 7seconds* of CC immunity. If that were to occur would you consider it passable?

(*against players not npcs * not to effect dmg)

NordJitsu

Armitas wrote: »

Thanks.

I'll need to think about it some more. I am definitely with you on having 7seconds of CC immunity. If that were to occur would you consider it passable?

@Armitas‌

Ya absolutely. There's no reason that Immobilize should work differently than other CC in the game.

If you dodge roll to break it (which costs quite a bit of stamina) you should be CC immune for 7 secs just like you would be if you'd just broken out of a Rune Prison, Obsidian Shard, Crystal Shard, ect. ect.

It should be treated the same as other CC.

Carde

If only someone had had the foresight to say that removing some forms of CC from the core CC break/immunity mechanic would be a terrible idea.

OH WAIT

scy22b14_ESO

Agree with the general consensus here. This, and all root type abilities should trigger the CC 7 second immunity upon rolling out of them.

lao

NordJitsu wrote: »

Its time to talk about Dark Talons. This skill is without a doubt the most broken ability in the game. It is, perhaps, the most broken ability in the history of MMOs.

What is Dark Talons? Well its a smart AoE immobilize with damage over time and a powerful synergy. It can lock down a massive group of enemy player, damage them, and allow team mates to destroy them even more. The amount of AoE synergies that work with this are astounding.

It cannot be blocked. It cannot be CC broken. It cannot be prevented with immunity like Immovable.

If you dodge roll out of it (the only way to escape immobilize) then you can be instantly placed back into it. Why? Because the ability has a range (circular, so radius) of 8 meters and is auto/smart snare.

Dodge roll doesn't take you 8 meters. So what's a good DK to do? If anyone dodge rolls out of Dark Talons, he just presses the ability again. Does he have to aim? Nope. Is there any way for the player to prevent it? Nope. Does the first dodge roll give him immunity to a second application? Nope.

So why is this different than other CC? "Encase" from the Sorcs Dark Magick tree is a good immobilize too right? Well the difference is that Encase is easy to avoid. If you get Encased, you can dodge roll to the left, right, or through the player. In order to reapply, they would have to quickly whip around and aim at you. Not so with Dark Talons. Just press a button, no player skill (or thinking beyond Pavlovian dog reflexes) is needed. You can use this to instantly blow through a players stamina, because two dodge rolls is going to leave them practically unable to block or CC break.

This one ability is making DKs the best Tanks, the best DPS, and the best overall class to have in group PvP.

I know some very high level DKs who have taken to calling this ability "Broken Talons." I stole the title from @Obscure‌ by the way.

Basically, right now, if you're playing a DK and not using Broken Talons, you're doing it wrong.

Everyone who knows there stuff and was in the closed Beta told ZOS about this ability and its imbalance repeatedly. Usually it was said with heavy sarcasm and rolling eyes. It was a bit of a joke.

We thought, "hey, they're smart. They've built a great CC system because they understand how important it is to get CC right. There's no way they're going to let this one slide."

We assumed the ability would be reworked prior to launch because how could it not be? We gave ZOS the benefit of the doubt because it seemed so obvious.

Now the game is out and it seems that they've taken all the lessons they learned and applied to the entire CC system and thrown them out the window with regards to one ability. This ability cannot be blocked, prevented, countered, ect. The only thing you can do is not be near them.

For me, as a sorc, that's not that bad actually. I can Bolt Escape away and THEN dodge roll, which takes me past 8 meters. But if you're a NB or a Temp? Good luck. You're perma locked if these guys ever get near you.

So how do you fix it?

Well there's several options and a mix would probably be best.

1. Increase the cost of Dark Talons to make it less spammable.
2. Make it so that dodge rolling out of an immobilize grants CC immunity for a short duration, just like the CC break system currently does.
3. Reduce the radius of Dark Talons so that a dodge roll takes you out of it unless the DK moves in your direction.

Lets get it done ZOS. Dragon Knights Online isn't going to be a fun game for your other 3 classes.

the whole CC system is flawed to the bone. 5 secs immunity on hard CC? lolplease.

matt firor made DAoC and that is the ONLY game in mmo history that ever got CC right. why is it so hard to just copy that system.

give us long duration castable aoe disorients that last (ALOOOOT) longer than the disorients in this game currently do. give one class the ability to cure disorient on other classes but not on themself. then give ppl who were previously effected by disorient a 1min immunity to that specific type of CC. this immunity has to also apply if u dont break it and just let it run out. exactly same mechanics should apply to immobilizes. both types should instantly break the moment u take dmg. other types of CC should also break it.

on to the next issue. stuns/knockdowns/knockbacks. duration is fine here. all that needs to be done is increase the immunity also to 1 min. make it also give immunity if u dont break it. just like with disorient.

now ZOS, stop debating and listening to anyone that was responsible for the atrocitys the mmo market came up with during the last decade and just do exactly as i tell you as ill assure u i know better than any of them. sounds cocky? yes maybe, but facts are facts and theres a reason why there was no good mmo since DAoC. trust me, im saving ur game here.

Obscure

@NordJitsu‌

I would only caution against grouping snares and immobilize effects in with hard CC's due to the potential for them to become wholely countered with stunbreaks and Immovable. The current distinction breaks up the CC meta into two categories: "debuff" and "disable". Snares and immobilizes are, when looked at plainly, the same brand of debuff with varied % reductions to movement; up to 99.999...% is still a snare, but at 100% it's an immobilize. There are notably other debuffs, such as miss chance infliction, that are also without direct counter that by nature of them being less common are easy to dismiss as not the same thing. For a familiar example, if you notice when using the synergy Purify, it removes snare and immobilize effects; they are debuffs like the rest, but it doesn't make you immune to the reapplication of any of those Debuffs. Weakness to Elements is a prime example of a Debuff that can be spammed, has no direct counter, and has no immunity option.

Suffice it to say CC in ESO means "disabling" and everything else that doesn't disable a players ability to act, but effects them negatively, is "debuffing". The movement debuffs, and immobilizes in specific, are far too common, and presently dodge mechanics only account for their existence, not their prevalence. Either we need a whole lot fewer snares and immobilizes across the board, or we need the tools to deal with them. Right now we have the mechanical equivalent to a hammer, and that will get you by just fine against one nail, but when there's two hundred of them in a row that hammer starts to look like a pretty stupid idea.