Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

Harbingers

Its like PvP class up in here.

Harbingers

I normally have 105% damage reduction. who needs the rest of that stuff. Talons is about the only thing that can counter me.

jman544

At the end of the day there are a at least two skills that are hard counters to roots. This issue is simply not as big as it's being made out to be. I get that the counter skills aren't effective in small scale combat but guess what this game really was never balanced for small scale combat to begin with. If that's what you want there are tons of games that do it much better. The anti cc skills totally shine in group combat, which is what this game is designed for. If you hate being CC'd group up and use the appropriate skills (adapt your play style to challenges).

The reality is though that people don't want to adapt, and god forbid work as a team. They wan't to play "their" way. In this case it seems like some people want a game game with no meaningful CC. . If you could dodge or easily negate all CC then why even put it crowd control in the game to begin with. You surely then wouldn't need to put skills in that are aimed at dealing with crowd control. I mean if a game with little to know meaningful CC is what you want just come out and say it, no need to beat around the bush. I remember the days of 1min long memorize skills where you would literally just stand in place and were unable to cast anything. Hating on a short duration root that allows you to cast and you can break out of it through various methods is kind of funny honestly.

Also Instead of nerfing skills why not just "buff" the hard counters by reducing their stamina cost? Is that not the easiest solution.

Harbingers

Beautifully Said.

Obscure

From the Recent AuA:

"Dark talons is currently bugged and can hit more targets than intended. We're also discussing improving players' ability to counter immobilize effects, but I don't have details for you on that just yet." -zos_konk

ZOS is aware of Broken Talons. It will be fixed, and then expect that counterplay to immobilize effects will be added because the lack of them is self evident. Load up on the Paxil now you zealous defenders of unblockable AoE immobilize spamming, the coming months are going to be really sad for you.

Alandauron

Obscure wrote: »

From the Recent AuA:

"Dark talons is currently bugged and can hit more targets than intended. We're also discussing improving players' ability to counter immobilize effects, but I don't have details for you on that just yet." -zos_konk

ZOS is aware of Broken Talons. It will be fixed, and then expect that counterplay to immobilize effects will be added because the lack of them is self evident. Load up on the Paxil now you zealous defenders of unblockable AoE immobilize spamming, the coming months are going to be really sad for you.

Beautifully Said.

Alandauron

jman544 wrote: »

At the end of the day there are a at least two skills that are hard counters to roots. This issue is simply not as big as it's being made out to be. I get that the counter skills aren't effective in small scale combat but guess what this game really was never balanced for small scale combat to begin with. If that's what you want there are tons of games that do it much better. The anti cc skills totally shine in group combat, which is what this game is designed for. If you hate being CC'd group up and use the appropriate skills (adapt your play style to challenges).

The reality is though that people don't want to adapt, and god forbid work as a team. They wan't to play "their" way. In this case it seems like some people want a game game with no meaningful CC. . If you could dodge or easily negate all CC then why even put it crowd control in the game to begin with. You surely then wouldn't need to put skills in that are aimed at dealing with crowd control. I mean if a game with little to know meaningful CC is what you want just come out and say it, no need to beat around the bush. I remember the days of 1min long memorize skills where you would literally just stand in place and were unable to cast anything. Hating on a short duration root that allows you to cast and you can break out of it through various methods is kind of funny honestly.

Also Instead of nerfing skills why not just "buff" the hard counters by reducing their stamina cost? Is that not the easiest solution.

You just refuse to read the entirety of the thread don't you?

Broken Talons works in large and small scale VERY effectively. So why isn't there a legitimate counter to it that works in both large and small scale? I'll tell you why, it's broken.

A 5-7 second immunity to roots would effectively solve this issue for small scale fights.

This game is not balanced around large scale war, it's balanced to the best of the devs' ability for ALL aspects. But sure lets encourage zerging some more.

We are asking for a meaningful game not some game with useless CC, but currently roots are broken. Lmao at your attempt to twist things by saying "go play something else" or "just come out and say you want meaningless CC" that just shows how completely irrelevant your argument is and that you obviously DO NOT understand the mechanics we are referring to.

• Roots can be re-applied over and over again with no break or pause
• Dark Talons requires no skill to cast, charge into a group and root the area
• You CANNOT block roots, you CAN block CC
• When you CC break a CC you get a short immunity, you get NO immunity from dodge rolling out of roots
• CC break consumes less stamina than dodge roll
• You can dodge roll to the side of every other root to avoid the area affected, you CANNOT dodge roll 8m to get out of the Dark Talons radius.

The Reality is though, people will come onto the forums and bash any logical ideas because they want to take advantage of a broken ability. Thankfully ZOS has recognized that Talons is NOT working as intended and that proper counterplay is needed for it and other immobilize abilities. If you want broken mechanics to continue to exist in the game just come out and say it, don't beat around the bush. Hating on a 5-7 immunity to immobilize effects after a dodge roll is just kinda funny really.

@Harbingers, so at this point it sounds like you support zerging...or you're just sticking to the same thing of trolling @NordJitsu. You seem to be confused about the fact that nothing he says or does has anything to do with you. Yet you decide to come and troll him...sad, thought you were better than that.

Crescent

Fix to broken talons is also gonna be really nice for those obnoxious pve mobs that use them as well lol.

That skill is just aggravating on so many levels.

Maverick827

Alandauron wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

From the Recent AuA:

"Dark talons is currently bugged and can hit more targets than intended. We're also discussing improving players' ability to counter immobilize effects, but I don't have details for you on that just yet." -zos_konk

ZOS is aware of Broken Talons. It will be fixed, and then expect that counterplay to immobilize effects will be added because the lack of them is self evident. Load up on the Paxil now you zealous defenders of unblockable AoE immobilize spamming, the coming months are going to be really sad for you.

Petulantly Said.

I fixed that for you.

Obscure

@Maverick827‌
Let's be fair, at worst I'm condescending. It'd be petulant if I just said "the zealous defenders of broken talons can go [snip] ." which despite that statement lying closer to my heart than the one I actually presented, it is not the one I used.

Condescending [snip] ? Yes, I believe I can accept that as one of my qualities. Petulant? Come now, that's just not my style.

Alandauron

Maverick827 wrote: »

I fixed that for you.

Nope, it was very accurate and well put. Troll moar.

Arreyanne

deleted by me

Carde

Alandauron wrote: »

@Harbingers, so at this point it sounds like you support zerging

Not to nitpick, but wouldn't wanting to see a skill that directly counters people bunching up get nerfed support zerging more?

If people are clumping up, they're getting rooted and ulted. Seems like Talons is a zergbusting tool to me.

Obscure

@Carde
While I'm against AoE caps in general to support the effectiveness of intelligent small groups using choke points to decimate zergs, I'd prefer the intelligent portion to be the determining element. In a technologically unrestricted setting this would include player collision, and unlimited AoE targets, but being realistic there's no server cluster on the planet a game developer can justify paying for to support that level of gameplay. That of course means including these technological limitations in the games balance...but I'm getting a bit off topic.

Broken Talons is Broken, it'll get fixed and eventually we'll see some immobilize counter play added to the game. Keep in mind Dark Talons, is not the only immobilize in the game, nor the only AoE immobilize which I'd say you most know better than myself, so I guess that's just out there for posterity. Intelligent small groups looking to capitalize on choke points to crush a zerg will just adapt to using them as well, and the skill ceiling will get a bit higher for effective small group play. Play which the zerg will be able to be equipped to counter once the devs decide how to take on the issue within the game's mechanics.

Simply put zerg busting should be a build and party composition/specialization that takes skill and intelligence. When I charge 20 people like an idiot and press two buttons I should expect to die, but if those buttons are Broken Talons and Standard of Win I expect to kill 5 of them in under 3 seconds, scatter 10 of them into retreat, and DPS down the remainder with my three other buddies. Not exactly what I call skilled play, and I'd prefer it not be that way. You should think "[snip], those guys are good" when your zerg gets crushed by a small group, not "oh [snip] it's these [snip] flavor-of-the-month [snip] again." At best you win a fight that wasn't fun to fight because you were annoyingly spammed the entire time; an aggravated victory. At worst you suffer the insult of being beaten by no talent [snip]. Neither are scenarios that induce warm fuzzy feelings.

Carde

@Obscure the problem you describe is more about how easy it is to build ult and the synergy with that ease and popping Battle Roar to become nearly immortal in large groups than how you can lock down a bunch of people too stupid to step out of the range of talons.

We all agree that immobilization skills should never have been taken off the anti-CC breakout/immunity table, but we disagree on the level of severity and responsibility this skill holds for this problem. Its a good skill, for sure, but it doesn't deserve a moniker like "Broken". I see more validity in dubbing skills like Bolt Escape thusly because now that is a badass skill right there.

And yet I'd call neither broken. Just requiring intelligent play to counter.

But hey, lets be honest here, TESO's PvP and overall gameplay doesn't really require skill or intelligence anyway, so why should this situation be any different.

Chirru

NordJitsu wrote: »

Its time to talk about Dark Talons. This skill is without a doubt the most broken ability in the game. It is, perhaps, the most broken ability in the history of MMOs.

Do not Nerf Dark Talons for that does not only affect PvP but also PvE and in PvE no one is complaining about it. Instead give Player Chars a valid counter-measure to Dark Talons.

Alandauron

Carde wrote: »

Alandauron wrote: »

@Harbingers, so at this point it sounds like you support zerging

Not to nitpick, but wouldn't wanting to see a skill that directly counters people bunching up get nerfed support zerging more?

If people are clumping up, they're getting rooted and ulted. Seems like Talons is a zergbusting tool to me.

No nerf, just an immunity for 5-7 seconds allowing intelligent players to get out if they happen to get caught in the Broken Talons spam. But again, you probably know this and are simply using misinformation to try and take apart my argument.

I want Talons to work the same, only difference being that simply casting it repeatedly to keep as many in the circle as possible would no longer work on decent players.

EDIT:

Carde wrote: »

We all agree that immobilization skills should never have been taken off the anti-CC breakout/immunity table...

So what are you arguing? Seriously that's EXACTLY what @NordJitsu and myself are asking for, to have a brief immunity to immobolize/roots. Seriously why all the hostility towards something you agree on?

Carde

Alandauron wrote: »

Carde wrote: »

Alandauron wrote: »

@Harbingers, so at this point it sounds like you support zerging

Not to nitpick, but wouldn't wanting to see a skill that directly counters people bunching up get nerfed support zerging more?

If people are clumping up, they're getting rooted and ulted. Seems like Talons is a zergbusting tool to me.

No nerf, just an immunity for 5-7 seconds allowing intelligent players to get out if they happen to get caught in the Broken Talons spam. But again, you probably know this and are simply using misinformation to try and take apart my argument.

I want Talons to work the same, only difference being that simply casting it repeatedly to keep as many in the circle as possible would no longer work on decent players.

EDIT:

Carde wrote: »

We all agree that immobilization skills should never have been taken off the anti-CC breakout/immunity table...

So what are you arguing? Seriously that's EXACTLY what @NordJitsu and myself are asking for, to have a brief immunity to immobolize/roots. Seriously why all the hostility towards something you agree on?

I'm not really arguing. I came in here chuckling at the hyperbole that OH MY GOD THIS SKILL IS THE DEVIL INCARNATE AND HE'S TRYING TO CORRUPT OUR CHILDREN THROUGH THE BROKEN TALONS SPAM when in reality the skill is just one of many that all function the same way, AKA immobilizes.

There are so many equally "broken" things in this game, the fascination you guys have with this one just kind of seems strange to me.

NordJitsu

@Carde‌

If I've learned anything through the Beta process, its that the only way to get things changed is to be really dramatic and to get a lot of people on your side.

That said, I think that other than the title and the first few lines of my OP, everything I've written has been measured, reasonable, and backed by facts. You're the one being hyperbolic here. I dare say from your comments that you've read about 1% of the thread, which means you don't know what you're talking about.

Carde

Well at least the first part of your post was correct. Good luck in your endeavor with these changes.

SmokeShard

It's crybabies like this that effectively ruined past MMO games with their "suggestions".

bg22

Such a active thread, with a ton of post, but as it's been said in here already there's a very simple fix for this huge issue that (zomg, don't hurt PvE!).

Add it took the list of all the other CC's and give players immunity after dodge rolling. Simple. Fixed.

Now DK's can save their magicka to insta-heal themselves for half health. Over and Over again. Or no, wait, they can save the magicka for their crazy amor buff. Or no, wait.. Man so many choices! DK is so hard to play... I'm indecisive as to what ridiculous ability I want to save my magicka for. =(

beravinprb19_ESO

By this point, we have discussed Dark Talons (and numerous other abilities) to death, and all we can do now is wait for balance changes. I have opted to stay out of PvP, get myself to VR10, and deck myself out in legendary gear while I wait for the storm to pass.

jocnerb14_ESO

U guys are a JOKE. in PVE u still have to aim at least to one target for it to work around you. In PVP u can resist it depending on ur spell resistance. And DKs cant spam that non stop because it does use a decent amount of magic. I bet whoever started this tread is a Vamp getting killed in his OP mist form.

NordJitsu

@jocnerb14_ESO‌

Literally everything you just wrote was wrong.

Maverick827

Except the magicka part. It's a fairly expensive spell.

Crescent

Well, so is encase, but encase doesn't do any damage, is a conal aoe not a 360 one, and it has no synergy.

A bunch of spells are magicka intensive, but they don't close to the effectiveness of some DK spells.

I'll admit vampires are the number one issue, but DK balance is right behind. Templars are also kinda overlooked but it'll become more apparent once DK is nerfed.

And for sorcs the light armor passives probably need a nerf so they have to manage magicka better instead of spamming.

Maverick827

I honestly don't care what they do to Dark Talons because I don't PvP on my DK. I'd just rather them buff anti-CC abilities rather than nerf anything because I don't trust MMO developers to nerf anything without going too far.

Obscure

@Maverick827
At its base it's really not that resource intensive. Besides spammers reduce its cost with light armor by 21%, and can stack that cost reduction with the Seducer set and Breton racial to 27%. Overcharge that magicka regen so it's at least 100, use that snazzy Warlock set to restore magic when low, and magicka furnace for when your hit and you can spam Talons all effin day.

By itself, observed in a vacuum, sure it's not easy to use over and over. But here in reality there's these things called other game mechanics that apply. Though it is worth pointing out those that restrict other similar AoE's and their effects do not apply to this one. Blockable? Nope. Temporary immunity after CC? Nope. Target requirements? Nope, and hell it'll even hit invisible ones. AoE cap? Nope, but that's been outed as a bug and should be fixed soon.

Maverick827

Sounds to me like the problem is with ability cost reduction.