Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

Obscure

@Maverick827
No no no. You miss the point. It's a bigger bang for your buck. No one is screaming at the internet when the DK spams Cinder Storm with an equally cost reducing specialized build. The "bang" of the skill is unequal to the "bang" of Talons. Why pay slightly less for 70% snare and less damage when a smidgen more gets you 100% snare (immobilize) and more damage in a larger AoE? Certainly the kicker of damage over time and 30% damage debuffing are more potent as well.

Wreaken

Not sure if this was mentioned in here, but you can break out of Dark Talons, just like every other CC ability.......

Wreaken

Obscure wrote: »

From the Recent AuA:

"Dark talons is currently bugged and can hit more targets than intended. We're also discussing improving players' ability to counter immobilize effects, but I don't have details for you on that just yet." -zos_konk

ZOS is aware of Broken Talons. It will be fixed, and then expect that counterplay to immobilize effects will be added because the lack of them is self evident. Load up on the Paxil now you zealous defenders of unblockable AoE immobilize spamming, the coming months are going to be really sad for you.

It only hits 5 targets total in PvE, so how many people is it hitting in PvP?

Another game that will destroy PvE with its PvP nerfs....

Wreaken

Alandauron wrote: »

• Roots can be re-applied over and over again with no break or pause
• Dark Talons requires no skill to cast, charge into a group and root the area
• You CANNOT block roots, you CAN block CC
• When you CC break a CC you get a short immunity, you get NO immunity from dodge rolling out of roots
• CC break consumes less stamina than dodge roll
• You can dodge roll to the side of every other root to avoid the area affected, you CANNOT dodge roll 8m to get out of the Dark Talons radius.

Almost all wrong and this kind of misinformation is what I am hoping ZOS can see right through.

For starters, you are immune to CC effects when you successfully break out of one, note the swirling effect around your feet indicating your CC DR. I think it lasts for roughly 2 - 3 seconds.

Secondly, you can Break out of Dark Talons just like any other CC ability.

Thirdly, skills that Immobilize cannot be blocked, at all. Stuns and Disorientates are designed to be blockable, working as intended.

Finally, Dark Talons is a instant cast based skill, you don't run in to an area of effect on the floor for the entire duration of the root portion of the skills, in other words what I am saying here is, once you dodge roll out of Dark Talons, you have broken out of it, end of story.

My advice is to play a DK first to understand how the skill works,

After they nerf this skill in to the ground, will you complain about AoE snares?

NordJitsu

@Wreaken‌

Actually, you're 100% wrong. The person you are talking to there is a Psijic Order tested with about 1 year of experience testing the game. He knows the mechanics. You do not.

You only get immunity when breaking out of "hard CC" like knockdowns, stuns, ect.

Roots/immobilize cannot be CC broken. You're wrong. They can only be dodge rolled out of.

Dodge roll does not give you an immunity. You're wrong. The swirly stuff only happens after CC break, which cannot be done with "soft CC."

Dodge rolling usually does not take you out of the Talons radius, since the radius is bigger than the distance that dodge roll takes you, you're wrong.

The biggest suggestion of this thread has been to add some sort of immunity after dodge rolling out of Immobilize/Root. So people want it to work the way you already think it does (but you think so incorrectly.)

Wreaken

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Wreaken‌

Actually, you're 100% wrong. The person you are talking to there is a Psijic Order tested with about 1 year of experience testing the game. He knows the mechanics. You do not.

You only get immunity when breaking out of "hard CC" like knockdowns, stuns, ect.

Roots/immobilize cannot be CC broken. You're wrong. They can only be dodge rolled out of.

Dodge roll does not give you an immunity. You're wrong. The swirly stuff only happens after CC break, which cannot be done with "soft CC."

Dodge rolling usually does not take you out of the Talons radius, since the radius is bigger than the distance that dodge roll takes you, you're wrong.

The biggest suggestion of this thread has been to add some sort of immunity after dodge rolling out of Immobilize/Root. So people want it to work the way you already think it does (but you think so incorrectly.)

Again, there is no "radius" to Talons except for the initial trigger effect of it, once you roll out, that's it, you are out of it. The area effect is a one time, instant based use, you are not inside an area of effect that ticks, it has never worked like that.

Now if you are dodge rolling out, and getting Taloned again, I suggest you look at how many DK's you are fighting OR that one DK is spamming his ability which won't last too long anyway, due to the upkeep cost.

Also, just to clarify, during Beta (I know this because I also tested the game, for a year), soft CC is working as intended because you still have semi control over your character, meaning while you are immobilized, you can still heal yourself, attack and use skills. How do I know this, because they said it was meant to work like that.

Just to finish, I never said you trigger the hard CC DR upon breaking a soft CC effect, for the reason above I just mentioned, it is working as intended.

My advice is or would have been at the start of this thread, learn to not be the closest 5 targets to a DK, because that is how it prioritizes it's target list.

Obscure

@Wreaken‌
My brain hurts at the colossal idiocy of what you're saying.

There is a radius to Dark Talons, that's literally how the skill works, it's on the tool tip as exactly that: 8m radius.

Dodge all you'd like, rolls take you roughly 5m. Now I'm no mathematics professor but I'm pretty sure 8 is larger than 5. Maybe fact check me on that one and get back to me.

And to finish off absolutely no one is talking about breaking soft CC's except for you literally stating:

Wreaken wrote: »

Not sure if this was mentioned in here, but you can break out of Dark Talons, just like every other CC ability.......

So either your trolling or are legitimatly out of your f***ing mind. I can forgive insanity, that's not your fault, but trolling? I deal with them with flames, they're vulnerable to them.

NordJitsu

@Wreaken‌

As with so many other misinformed posters, my advice to you is just to read this thread in its entirety (which you clearly have not). There are quite a few descriptions of how the mechanics of this skill work and why so many people consider it to be problematic. You could probably learn quite a bit by doing so.

For example, obviously the radius of talons only matters when its cast. No one has ever stated anything to the contrary so I'm not sure where your confusion lies.

The problem is that a person can be locked down, dodge roll, and then be instantly placed back into Talons by a second cast. Again, this is because Talons is relatively low cost (if it isn't for you, then your build likely isn't very good) and has a radius of effect that is larger than the distance a single dodge roll will take you.

This is why two of the suggested fixes were an immunity to soft CC after dodge rolling out and a smaller radius to Dark Talons.

The smaller radius would indeed affect PvE, but really I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. This skill is problematic against PvE content as well. Have you seen Attorneyatlawals video where he solo's a 4 person VR12 delve and world boss in Craglorn? Would not have been possible without his spammable Talons locking down all the adds and ticking for 600 damage a second.

As for the broader talk of hard vs soft CC, you should know that the special system for soft CC was added quite late in the Beta process. Originally, roots and immobilizes were treated the same as other CC.

What you're saying with being able to move, heal, ect. iss a fair point and I do understand what they were going for conceptually. However, like others have stated, its not quite as soft as you make it out to be. You can attack, sure. But they can circle around you and you cannot follow. You can heal, sure, but Talons does a pretty massive amount of damage.

Again, this is why Talons is special compared to other soft CC. If not for this skill, their soft CC system would probably be fine. Encase and Bombard cannot be reapplied because they have to be aimed and are not radial-smart roots. They do not do nearly as much damage as Dark Talons. They do not include synergies that do ridiculously more damage.


Also, btw, things are not working as "intended." They've realized that the system as is can be problematic, as Konkle said in their recent Reddit AuA. I dare say this thread had a lot to do with this comment:

Dark talons is currently bugged and can hit more targets than intended. We're also discussing improving players' ability to counter immobilize effects, but I don't have details for you on that just yet.

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/24h8dv/welcome_to_the_zos_aua/ch75rqr?context=3

Wreaken

Obscure wrote: »

@Wreaken‌
My brain hurts at the colossal idiocy of what you're saying.

There is a radius to Dark Talons, that's literally how the skill works, it's on the tool tip as exactly that: 8m radius.

Dodge all you'd like, rolls take you roughly 5m. Now I'm no mathematics professor but I'm pretty sure 8 is larger than 5. Maybe fact check me on that one and get back to me.

And to finish off absolutely no one is talking about breaking soft CC's except for you literally stating:

Wreaken wrote: »

Not sure if this was mentioned in here, but you can break out of Dark Talons, just like every other CC ability.......

So either your trolling or are legitimatly out of your f***ing mind. I can forgive insanity, that's not your fault, but trolling? I deal with them with flames, they're vulnerable to them.

Sorry but you are completely clueless as to how the skill works.

It does not have a tick based *root* effect. The fire dmg dot is the only part of the skill that ticks and is applied to the people who get rooted. Simple. There is no area of effect dot root based ability that lasts for 4 seconds and if you break out of the root, it applies it straight back on, it has never worked like this.

The radius of the ability is 8 meters, the cast is instant, the duration of the root is 4 seconds. Anyone in the initial execution of the skill is rooted (max of 5 targets by the way, not unlimited) and the dot is applied for 4 seconds. The millisecond you click that skill, that is it, root is used and is not applied again. The dot is the only thing that lingers. This is how the skill has mechanically always worked, even during beta.

As for the CC comment, yes that's right, you can break out of Dark Talons. Are you saying you can't?

Now as I said, I will reiterate it here, yet again. Soft CC's are working as intended as pointed out during beta because you have semi control still over your character in regards to being able to attack, use skills and potions etc. That is why you do not trigger the CC DR immunity when dodging out of an immobilize. Now if it was an immobilize with a stun or disorientate, then they would be a different story.

Now assuming there could be a bug here that reapplies the root to the player who is fire damage dotted, then that is an issue that should be addressed, but in my experience both using it and having it applied, I haven't had it reapply the second I roll out of it. The next question then remains, again, how many DK's are people going up against, multiple DK's = multiple Talons = Stay away from DK's because the roots are prioritized on a proximity basis.

There is probably a large degree of learn to play in here with a possibility of bug that would be almost impossible to reproduce in PvP with multiple DK's in the mix.

NordJitsu

@Wreaken‌

Please read my comment above yours. I addressed several of the things you still seem to be confused about, but I think you missed it because you posted at the same time.

But, again, no one thinks there is a tick based or duration based re-root. The problem is with reapplication. I have no idea where you got the idea that anyone though anything different, but its very odd.

Anyway, just read the post.

Maverick827

NordJitsu wrote: »

Again, this is because Talons is relatively low cost (if it isn't for you, then your build likely isn't very good)

You'd gain a lot more ground if you stopped being so condescending and childish.

Not going all in on cost reduction and magicka isn't "not being very good" and it certainly shouldn't get an entirely unrelated skill nerfed.

Wreaken

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Wreaken‌

Please read my comment above yours. I addressed several of the things you still seem to be confused about, but I think you missed it because you posted at the same time.

But, again, no one thinks there is a tick based or duration based re-root. The problem is with reapplication. I have no idea where you got the idea that anyone though anything different, but its very odd.

Anyway, just read the post.

Because you all seem to be confused about being able to roll out of an 8 meter instant cast based skill and dodge the root OR some people here seem slightly confused that rolling out of the root seems to reapply it because you can't roll 8 meters away and can only roll 5, so either people need to get their stories straight or learn to be crystal clear about what they are experiencing.

The skill is instant cast, you have no way in hell at dodging it if you are one of the 5 closet targets to the DK, you are getting hit by it.

As for the rest of your post, I read it before posting, and I am clear I understand you, I just don't agree that most people fully understand the skill still or how it mechanically works.

Question is, how do you go about addressing multiple class stacking abilities? This skill is clearly an issue in PvP because DK's are one of the heaviest played classes atm in Cyrodill and to top that off, this is one form of CC that can be abused, from both sides of the fence.

It makes no difference to me, nerf it, don't nerf it, the crying about CC won't stop here. Plenty of other classes have AoE CC abilities and, like most games, if they destroy their PvE content because of trivial issues in PvP that can be dealt with more co-ordination, then I am sure this game will go a long way like the rest that have tried to balance PvP without giving a thought to PvE.

NordJitsu

@Wreaken‌

At this point its entirely unclear to me what you're trying to say, but I'll give this one last try for the benefit of anyone reading but not posting.

As was explained in the OP, throughout the thread, and multiple times to you in particular, Dark Talons can be easily reapplied by re-casting the ability.

DragonKnight walks up and uses Dark Talons. All 15 NightBlades standing around him get rooted (which is thankfully a bug, since Konk said its is SUPPOSED to have a target limit but doesn't.) You, being one of these NightBlades, dodge roll backwards/left/right/forwards. However, your dodge roll takes you only 5m. The skill has a radius of 8m. That means that as soon as the DK sees you dodge, he just presses the button again. You get instantly re-rooted. Your dodge roll has done you no good and has expended about 1/3rd of your stamina.

This was pretty clearly explained to you multiple times already though, so I won't get my hopes up this time.


@Maverick827‌

I do apologize for being condescending. You're probably right that I have been, even though I've tried not to be. I'm doing my best to be informative and helpful, but its tough.

So far there have been two types of disagreement with the thread:

1. Trolls who use the ability and don't want to see their favorite toy taken away
2. People who are very misinformed about the mechanics and clearly have not read the thread or the OP


When people don't read or bother to learn, but contribute to the conversation anyway, its hard to feel anything but disdain for their opinions.

Wreaken

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Wreaken‌

At this point its entirely unclear to me what you're trying to say, but I'll give this one last try for the benefit of anyone reading but not posting.

As was explained in the OP, throughout the thread, and multiple times to you in particular, Dark Talons can be easily reapplied by re-casting the ability.

DragonKnight walks up and uses Dark Talons. All 15 NightBlades standing around him get rooted (which is thankfully a bug, since Konk said its is SUPPOSED to have a target limit but doesn't.) You, being one of these NightBlades, dodge roll backwards/left/right/forwards. However, your dodge roll takes you only 5m. The skill has a radius of 8m. That means that as soon as the DK sees you dodge, he just presses the button again. You get instantly re-rooted. Your dodge roll has done you no good and has expended about 1/3rd of your stamina.

This was pretty clearly explained to you multiple times already though, so I won't get my hopes up this time.

Wrong, it cannot CC 15 targets, ever. You are either over exaggerating or trolling. I have never, EVER CC'd 15 targets in PvP, EVER. Now unless someone can show me 1 DK DT'ing 15 targets, then I will eat my hat, however, I have never been able to CC that many people. Now, on the other hand, if you take 5 or 6 DK's and spread them out in a group of people, yeah sure, they can probably DT 15 people.

You realize that you can't just spam the skill right? I mean sure, I guess you can 3 or 4 times, then what? Run around like a lost sheep for 20 seconds waiting for magicka regen or a magicka pot to come off cooldown?

On top of all that, every class gets a skill that makes them immune to all CC abilities, my advice is if you choose to PvP, it is in your best interest to take it, otherwise, why are we here again?

Again, you are avoiding my question, how do you address multiple class stacking abilities? You know you can't safely answering this without possibly having your classes multiple stacking class abilities nerfed in the process, because every class across the board has a few class stacking abilities that can be used like this, as pointed out also in this very thread.

Again, I have no issue with it, nerf it, I don't need to spam it and any Cyrodill team who relies on this skill being spammed is just bad, because this isn't the only AoE CC in game, it is just the most used atm because DK's stacking in PvP.

So, ZOS, while you are at it, make sure you nerf every single other AoE CC out there in conjunction with Dark Talons please, sounds to me like a full review of CC's might be in order.

MoMoOG

I must say this thread does not disappoint on the number of people who read the title of the thread, who read maybe at most 2 lines out of the initial post, and who finaly decide to write a lengthy misinformed and ultimately useless response. I keep coming back to this thread just to get a good laugh every other day and it always delivers.

Selodaoc

Talon + AoE dmg pillar is OP as Vampire bats was. Atleast you could run away from bats.

NordJitsu

@Wreaken‌

You're right.

There is no bug. Dark Talons is working as intended.

Nick Konkle, gameplay developer, is wrong. The three dozen people who have commented on this bug are wrong.

Everything is fine. Thank you for showing me the light. You have made the world a better place. I thank you sir and apologize for my grave misgivings about the skill.

You sir, are a hero.

Now please head to the next thread that needs your help, for we are safe here now.

ChairGraveyard

MoMoOG wrote: »

I must say this thread does not disappoint on the number of people who read the title of the thread, who read maybe at most 2 lines out of the initial post, and who finaly decide to write a lengthy misinformed and ultimately useless response. I keep coming back to this thread just to get a good laugh every other day and it always delivers.

QFT.

Same deal in all the threads with vampire players trying to point out that

1) The nerf to vampire ability cost reduction doesn't fix Bat Swarm abuse, and that it needs a real fix to ultimate cost reduction instead.

2) The nerf instead screws up the other two abilities for PvE players.

Yet most don't bother reading and just knee-jerk reply with trolling. Unfortunately nothing is done about the tons of spammy troll posts.

Wreaken

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Wreaken‌

You're right.

There is no bug. Dark Talons is working as intended.

Nick Konkle, gameplay developer, is wrong. The three dozen people who have commented on this bug are wrong.

Everything is fine. Thank you for showing me the light. You have made the world a better place. I thank you sir and apologize for my grave misgivings about the skill.

You sir, are a hero.

Now please head to the next thread that needs your help, for we are safe here now.

Again, you are avoiding my question, how do you address multiple class stacking abilities? You know you can't safely answering this without possibly having your classes multiple stacking class abilities nerfed in the process, because every class across the board has a few class stacking abilities that can be used like this, as pointed out also in this very thread.

NordJitsu

@Wreaken‌

You'll have to explain what you mean by that. But I get the feeling its wildly off the topic of the thread.

Alandauron

Alandauron wrote: »

EDIT: Added numbers for reference below

1. Roots can be re-applied over and over again with no break or pause
2. Dark Talons requires no skill to cast, charge into a group and root the area
3. You CANNOT block roots, you CAN block CC
4. When you CC break a CC you get a short immunity, you get NO immunity from dodge rolling out of roots
5. CC break consumes less stamina than dodge roll
6. You can dodge roll to the side of every other root to avoid the area affected, you CANNOT dodge roll 8m to get out of the Dark Talons radius.

Wreaken wrote: »

Almost all wrong and this kind of misinformation is what I am hoping ZOS can see right through.

For starters, you are immune to CC effects when you successfully break out of one, note the swirling effect around your feet indicating your CC DR. I think it lasts for roughly 2 - 3 seconds.

I stated that you are immune to "CC" in point 4. Roots/Immobilize is not the same as "CC" which you seem to clump together(I think this is intentional to confuse but that's just me giving you the benefit of the doubt about being...no nice word for that). Roots/Immobilize receives NO immunity after your dodge roll(which is also in point 4). So this was not wrong, not one bit, but you were, if you are claiming that you get immunity after dodge roll. Is that what you were saying?

Wreaken wrote: »

Secondly, you can Break out of Dark Talons just like any other CC ability.

You can break out, but not like any other CC ability(left + right mouse). You must dodge roll out which, once again, gives you no form of immunity.

Wreaken wrote: »

Thirdly, skills that Immobilize cannot be blocked, at all. Stuns and Disorientates are designed to be blockable, working as intended.

OMG are you incapable of reading? That's exactly what I said in point 3. Roots(Immobilize) CANNOT be blocked, you CAN block CC.

Wreaken wrote: »

Finally, Dark Talons is a instant cast based skill, you don't run in to an area of effect on the floor for the entire duration of the root portion of the skills, in other words what I am saying here is, once you dodge roll out of Dark Talons, you have broken out of it, end of story.

Very true, you have broken out of that one instance of Dark Talons from the roll, but you HAVE NOT traveled far enough to escape a second cast of it(8m radius for Dark Talons, 5m dodge roll) nor are you immune so you CANNOT run the rest of the way out if they cast again.

Wreaken wrote: »

My advice is to play a DK first to understand how the skill works.

After they nerf this skill in to the ground, will you complain about AoE snares?

I did play a DK long enough to test them on the PTS server recently. No one is asking for a nerf just for the short immunity for the sake of balance(On ALL Root/Immobilize Abilities), read the entirety of the thread please.

Wreaken wrote: »

You realize that you can't just spam the skill right? I mean sure, I guess you can 3 or 4 times, then what? Run around like a lost sheep for 20 seconds waiting for magicka regen or a magicka pot to come off cooldown?

While I was testing DK I wanted to know exactly how many times I could spam Dark Talons. I made a VR9 Template on the PTS for the sake of testing this, that's not even the maximum rank. I removed ALL gear except a 2 handed sword, I DID NOT allocate any attribute points.

I charged into a mob and cast Dark Talons 6 times before looking at my bar, still had a bit of magicka. I died shortly after checking my bar so I'm not sure how many times I could have actually cast it. So stating that you can only cast it 3-4 times is either a blatant lie or you are not yet VR, which is understandable, but eventually everyone will be VR(or at least the vast majority). I understand that I was only using that one magicka skill, and also that other skills are useful, but the build that brought this to everyone's attention is Charge/Chain/Talons/Standard(and 2 other skills of your choice really).

So, as you can now see, there is no misinformation here. Just because YOU misunderstood something doesn't make it misinformation, just says something about YOU.

Carde

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Wreaken‌

You'll have to explain what you mean by that. But I get the feeling its wildly off the topic of the thread.

I think he's referring to a group using like 3-5 DKs to keep everything locked down as opposed to 1 DK keeping everyone locked down.

He's hilariously inaccurate about everything else he's said up to that point, but I think multiple DKs is far more of the issue than one-man DK armies (aside from the obvious vamp build that people didn't know how to counter).

NordJitsu

@Carde‌

Ya I suppose there's some truth to that. Multiple DKs using it is nastier than one. But it really depends on the size of the encounter.

I'm just happy that they'll be fixing the AoE cap, which was apparently a bug, and also looking at adding additional counters for Immobilizes (which includes roots.) Konkle mentioned it in the AuA and I'm satisfied that they'll make a smart decision with how to handle it.

The vamp thing is pretty funny btw. Just a day or two before it was fixed, @Obscure‌ and I figured out a really really nasty way to stop it. Dark Talons + Negate Magic + Standard of Might = Melted Vampires.

The Talons would root them and do fire damage. Mist Form wouldn't give immunity. The Negate Magic would shut off their Bats plus any other spells they were using (as well as keeping sorcs from bolting out of the Talons.) Then his Standard would finish them off with all that fire damage.

Wreaken

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Wreaken‌

You'll have to explain what you mean by that. But I get the feeling its wildly off the topic of the thread.

Sigh, OK.

Templar - Explosive Charge, instant, spammable, radius 6 meters
Nightblade - Manifestation of Terror, instant, spammable, radius 6 meters
Sorcerer - Restraining & Shattering Prision, instant, spammable, radius 15 meters
Dragon Knight - Dark Talons, instant, spammable, radius 8 meters

So I guess we need a complete revamp of all the above skills so they cannot be abused and class stacked by more then one person in an area where there could be 50+ people fighting in PvP.

Also, there has been no proof or factual evidence of anyone doing a 15 person+ Dark Talon CC, there has been people claiming numbers with no back up and a Dev claiming it was a bug, and yet no one can reproduce it solo or show us video footage of 1 DK running in to a pack of 20+ people and locking them down, in other words, it is easier for the Dev to say "Hey we are looking in to it." then to ignore it and get everyone crying rivers of tears.

Feel free to try and justify the above skills though, I am sure someone after DT is nerfed will raise issues with those skills in the future. The next argument I see popping up after 1.1 is, the cost of breaking Hard CC's being to Stamina costing due to the amount of NB that will be running around Terrorizing the battlefield. "OMG, I can't do anything because I have to consume all my stamina in lockdowns!!!! NERF NAO!!!"

NordJitsu

@Wreaken‌

Dude, you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Your post are off topic and make no coherent sense.

Explosive Charge CC's one target. It deals small amounts of damage to nearby targets.

Manifestation of Terror has to be placed and triggered. It is a fear which can be CC broken through normal means and you get a 7 sec immunity after doing so.

Encase (the only skill you mentioned which has anything in common with Dark Talons) does not have a radius at all. It has a range of 15 meters. It is applied only to enemies in front of you. It does not damage, unless you choose the Shattering morph. Even then the damage it does in comparison to Talons is joke. It does roughly 100 per enemy total. Talons can do up to 600 per tick. It also cannot be easily reapplied or applied to all enemies near you. If someone dodge rolls out, you would have to turn and re-aim. Its also more expensive than Talons.

So ya, you seem to be completely incapable of making reasonable comparisons or understanding what makes Talons different from these other skills.

Now, all that said, you'll noticed (or not because you aren't reading/comprehending anything) that the suggestion was for immunity after dodge rolling out of all soft CC.

This would affect Encase (and its morphs) as well as Dark Talons.

Soo.....what point were you trying to make? lol

Alandauron

Wreaken wrote: »

Sorry but you are completely clueless as to how the skill works.

@Obscure, I LOLed so much after reading this part. He isn't aware that he's talking to a DK at your skill level that was also involved in the permanent beta for months before release. Stupid people are stupid...LMAO!!!

Wreaken wrote: »

As for the CC comment, yes that's right, you can break out of Dark Talons. Are you saying you can't?

He was saying that you can't CC break out, you must dodge roll. WHICH IS NOT A CC BREAK. Please use roots for roots and CC for CC so you don't confuse yourself.

Wreaken wrote: »

Now as I said, I will reiterate it here, yet again. Soft CC's are working as intended as pointed out during beta because you have semi control still over your character in regards to being able to attack, use skills and potions etc. That is why you do not trigger the CC DR immunity when dodging out of an immobilize. Now if it was an immobilize with a stun or disorientate, then they would be a different story.

And this right here is the point we are arguing, for the reasons I listed above, that you WRONGLY stated were "Almost all wrong". The balance comes in that the roots can't be blocked, there's no reason to also exclude an immunity. Not being able to block an ability in this game is HUGE. You can block CC to effectively keep yourself in the fight. I like that roots can't be blocked, keeps blocking from being entirely too effective, but you should have Root Immunity if you use 1/4 of your stamina to dodge roll out. 1/4 stamina is also HUGE in this game.

Wreaken wrote: »

There is probably a large degree of learn to play in here with a possibility of bug that would be almost impossible to reproduce in PvP with multiple DK's in the mix.

You're talking to several people that do know how to play, I'm sure most of us could destroy you in 1v1, but that isn't the point here. Roots/Immobilize in general is broken and we want to see a fix come across for that.

Just about everything else you said makes no sense and was a waste of time to read, but I did read it all. Please organize your thoughts before posting again. Read the entirety of the thread, think before you type.

You initial post attempting to tear apart my points ended up being you restating the exact same thing I did just in different(less organized) words. You disagreed with me publicly, but your post actually supported what I stated.

Wreaken wrote: »

Also, just to clarify, during Beta (I know this because I also tested the game, for a year),

Checked your account, "Joined as of February 3rd". It may feel like you tested for a long time, but you actually did not. Check accounts, for those that say "September 2013" that was the last time they updated and reset the forums. Most with that as start date were permanent testers long before that. In other words ALL that you are arguing with.

Wreaken wrote: »

soft CC is working as intended because you still have semi control over your character, meaning while you are immobilized, you can still heal yourself, attack and use skills. How do I know this, because they said it was meant to work like that.

Yes, "soft CC"(Roots/Immobilize) IS working as intended, no one ever said it wasn't. The way it is working is what we consider broken, and most involved in this discussion agree(even those that don't like us or don't want to see DK nerfed). We also don't want to see DK nerfed.

We used DK and Dark Talons because it is the most obvious example of how broken "soft CC"(Roots/Immobilize) actually is.

Alandauron

Wreaken wrote: »

Templar - Explosive Charge, instant, spammable, radius 6 meters

Not a CC, not even remotely related to this thread. Has no relation whatsoever to Dark Talons...EDIT: Apologies, misread the tooltip.

Wreaken wrote: »

Nightblade - Manifestation of Terror, instant, spammable, radius 6 meters

Not a CC, not even remotely related to this thread. Would actually defeat the purpose of Dark Talons if an ally used this while you were trying to lock down a group(It is a fear skill).

Wreaken wrote: »

Sorcerer - Restraining & Shattering Prision, instant, spammable, radius 15 meters

Not a radius, you cast this in front of you, not in a circle around you. A great skill to be certain, but costs more than Dark Talons and requires aim while doing less damage and having no synergy.

Dragon Knight - Dark Talons, instant, spammable, radius 8 meters
[/quote]
What is your point? I mean seriously, take yourself away for a little while, develop your thoughts, return to us so we can discuss what you're attempting to say.

Wreaken

Lets note one thing here to begin with, this entire thread had nothing at all to remotely do with damage, it started based on the premise of CC, and I maintain to keep it about CC. Secondly, I am more then well aware of the how the skills mechanically function, their pros and cons and their situational value.

Explosive Charge - Instant cast. Unless bugged, my Templar stuns all mobs at the point of impact, stunning them for 3 seconds, so yes, is a CC. Not sure if working as intended. ZOS confirm please. Can be class stacked multiple times, is spammable, 6 meter radius from point of impact.

Manifestation of Terror - Instant cast PBAoE = Mass fear = CC. Can be class stacked multiple times, is spammable, 6 meter radius from point of impact.

Restraining & Shattering Prison - Instant cast, is spammable, 15 meter radius PBAoE cone based (aiming is hard I heard when looking forwards into a mass pack of people.... ), can be class stacked and mana consumption is 4% more then DT.

Now, let me address the synergy portion for a second, for starters, you cannot trigger synergies back to back in succession, I like to think you guys are a little bit smarter then that and know about the internal cooldown on synergies.

Let me just finish up here cause I am a little over it all to be honest, these are strictly apple to apple comparisons using Mass AoE CC abilities to compare. They all have the exact same function, can be class stacked, same mechanical use and the ability to be spammable, just like DT, with the exception on maybe Explosive Charge until confirmed.

Fair is fair in the world of calling nerfs, if you want one skill adjusted they all need to be adjusted, end of story.

So where do we go? Using Nords suggestions, I tweaked them a little bit to assist in the balancing of AoE CC in zerg based PvP combat, I suggest we do the same to all the above skills as:

1. Increase the cost of all above skills to make it less spammable.
2. Make it so that dodge rolling out of an immobilize grants CC immunity for a short duration, just like the CC break system currently does.
3. Reduce the radius of all the above skills to 5 meters so that a dodge roll takes you out of it unless the player moves in your direction.

Now I hand it back over to you Nord, because you will likely try and justify these skills as having no comparison to what we are talking about and attempt to prove me wrong with some kind of rhetorical outburst of not having a clue I guess.

I am leaving the last word up to you Nord, nothing left for me to prove and if you have any shred of English comprehension, there is no need for me to keep repeating myself like a broken record.

Have at it champ.

Obscure

@Wreaken
Oh what the actual f*** are you talking about? I'm starting to wonder if you're just carrying on your own conversation with yourself because not only is everything you're saying not relevant, no one is unclear about the distinction being made here except for you and who the f*** ever you apparently share your head with. Tell the voices to be quiet and try to focus.

Immobilize is not a "CC" according to the game mechanics. It's an immobilize. Immobilize is countered by dodging, not CC breaking. CC breaking grants a 7 second immunity and every "CC" works that way. Dodging grants no immunity and the movement is not greater than the radius of Dark Talons. This means after CC breaking the Invasion the DK just used, you also have to Dodge out of the Talons he just used. Your now immune to a second dose of Invasion because knockdown is a CC, but not to Dark Talons, because immobilize is not a CC.

That's how you play lock down and drain the enemy of stamina before you drop a burning death stick spat forth from the gods on their face, and lock them there with Talons that they don't have the stamina to Dodge out of nor have any immunity to ignore. Counter play tools? Even if you have every one of them they're all stamina based, good luck with that whole not dying in a fire thing. Unless you rolled a Sorc and use bolt escape you're what is known as "screwed". I know this personally as I have done my fair share of that manner of no-skill-thrill asshatery, and owe my opinion to the many shattered grandiose aspirations of other players that died under my Standard of Win...held in the warm unresistable embrace of my Broken Talons.

beravinprb19_ESO

Alandauron wrote: »

So stating that you can only cast it 3-4 times is either a blatant lie

I actually play the damn class, thank you very much. As a VR8 player, I can cast this ability exactly 3 times before I deplete my magicka, or 4 if I have a decent magicka food buff. This is not a lie, this is me having eyeballs and watching how the use of Burning Talons interacts with my magicka pool. I'm on the live server, by the way, where this actually matters.