Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

Alandauron

Navhkrin wrote: »

So what? Look at sorcerers teleporting lightning fast no one can catch them

That's a different topic altogether. When one ability, broken talons, ignores game mechanics that balance CC in such a way something needs to be done, 7 second immunity.

Yes, all roots should be treated the same IMO. But I think the immobilize immunity should be different than CC immunity. So if you CC break you can still be immobilized and vice versa. Sure that still allows the opponent to "stun" twice, but they have to occupy 2 precious slots to do that.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

MoMoOG wrote: »

I think 7 second immunity too root is too long. There definitely needs to be immunity after breaking root but I feel something around 4 seconds would be more reasonable. Root is not as powerful as stun.

it's a soft CC like a slow maybe that is why CC break but roll does work

Root and slows are weaker then stuns/knockdown/disorients

Harbingers

I lol'd when I read this, give it up nord.

Also, it's classified as a root as I'm sure you've been told by now.

scy22b14_ESO

MoMoOG wrote: »

I think 7 second immunity too root is too long. There definitely needs to be immunity after breaking root but I feel something around 4 seconds would be more reasonable. Root is not as powerful as stun.

Have you ever had someone root you, then strafe around to your back? If you are a healer, I can see how roots aren't quite as powerful as a stun, but if you're anyone else, they're every bit as powerful.

You can't ranged attack someone who isn't in your view, nor can you melee attack them. You can't vanish out of them, as you'll be stuck in place. You can't roll out of them, as they'll simply reapply it.

Other than healing and bolt escaping, what are you supposed to do against chain immobilization? In this sense, they're every bit as strong as any stun. There's simply no excuse they should be treated any differently.

MoMoOG

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

MoMoOG wrote: »

I think 7 second immunity too root is too long. There definitely needs to be immunity after breaking root but I feel something around 4 seconds would be more reasonable. Root is not as powerful as stun.

Have you ever had someone root you, then strafe around to your back? If you are a healer, I can see how roots aren't quite as powerful as a stun, but if you're anyone else, they're every bit as powerful.

You can't ranged attack someone who isn't in your view, nor can you melee attack them. You can't vanish out of them, as you'll be stuck in place. You can't roll out of them, as they'll simply reapply it.

Other than healing and bolt escaping, what are you supposed to do against chain immobilization? In this sense, they're every bit as strong as any stun. There's simply no excuse they should be treated any differently.

Yes I have been in those scenarios. You are correct in that SOME scenarios root can be just as deadly as a stun. However, I've also been in scenarios where I was rooted by a far away target but I was still been able to fight back with my ranged abilities. I've also been in scenarios where I've been rooted and was able to use active mitigation abilities/self heals/potions to survive the encounter. These scenarios are not possible with stun. There is still a big difference in power between the two forms of cc. Again I said there should be immunity to root, just not the same duration as stun, so chain immobilize still wouldn't be possible.

Alandauron

Harbingers wrote: »

I lol'd when I read this, give it up nord.

Also, it's classified as a root as I'm sure you've been told by now.

Sad to see you of all people chiming in to support this. You should be ashamed

scy22b14_ESO

MoMoOG wrote: »

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

MoMoOG wrote: »

I think 7 second immunity too root is too long. There definitely needs to be immunity after breaking root but I feel something around 4 seconds would be more reasonable. Root is not as powerful as stun.

Have you ever had someone root you, then strafe around to your back? If you are a healer, I can see how roots aren't quite as powerful as a stun, but if you're anyone else, they're every bit as powerful.

You can't ranged attack someone who isn't in your view, nor can you melee attack them. You can't vanish out of them, as you'll be stuck in place. You can't roll out of them, as they'll simply reapply it.

Other than healing and bolt escaping, what are you supposed to do against chain immobilization? In this sense, they're every bit as strong as any stun. There's simply no excuse they should be treated any differently.

Yes I have been in those scenarios. You are correct in that SOME scenarios root can be just as deadly as a stun. However, I've also been in scenarios where I was rooted by a far away target but I was still been able to fight back with my ranged abilities. I've also been in scenarios where I've been rooted and was able to use active mitigation abilities/self heals/potions to survive the encounter. These scenarios are not possible with stun. There is still a big difference in power between the two forms of cc. Again I said there should be immunity to root, just not the same duration as stun, so chain immobilize still wouldn't be possible.

Anecdotal. Individual experience may vary. I can't recall a situation where I had to sit through an entire stun. Does that mean stuns aren't strong enough? No, it means that every single class/build in the game can counter them. As it stands now, there is no counter whatsoever to root/immobilization spam unless you belong to a very select group of people.

Stuns are balanced under the current CC mechanics. Roots are not.

MoMoOG

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

Anecdotal. Individual experience may vary. I can't recall a situation where I had to sit through an entire stun. Does that mean stuns aren't strong enough? No, it means that every single class/build in the game can counter them. As it stands now, there is no counter whatsoever to root/immobilization spam unless you belong to a very select group of people.

Stuns are balanced under the current CC mechanics. Roots are not.

I didn't say roots are balanced in current design. I'm very much in the camp that root needs immunity after it is broken/ends. I'm just saying if all other things are equal, root is not as powerful as a stun. Therefore I feel the duration of root immunity should be shorter.

scy22b14_ESO

MoMoOG wrote: »

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

Anecdotal. Individual experience may vary. I can't recall a situation where I had to sit through an entire stun. Does that mean stuns aren't strong enough? No, it means that every single class/build in the game can counter them. As it stands now, there is no counter whatsoever to root/immobilization spam unless you belong to a very select group of people.

Stuns are balanced under the current CC mechanics. Roots are not.

I didn't say roots are balanced in current design. I'm very much in the camp that root needs immunity after it is broken/ends. I'm just saying if all other things are equal, root is not as powerful as a stun. Therefore I feel the duration of root immunity should be shorter.

The CC immunity needs to be longer than the duration of the CC itself. Having a 4 second immunity for a 4 second CC is flawed game design. If you reduce the immunity on talons, then you need to reduce the duration as well. There's a reason you're immune for 7 seconds when breaking out of a 4 second stun. Roots should be treated to the same restrictions.

MoMoOG

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

The CC immunity needs to be longer than the duration of the CC itself. Having a 4 second immunity for a 4 second CC is flawed game design. If you reduce the immunity on talons, then you need to reduce the duration as well. There's a reason you're immune for 7 seconds when breaking out of a 4 second stun. Roots should be treated to the same restrictions.

Obviously the root immunity would kick in after the root has ended and not when it first applied. You realize roots can be broken with rolls right? The number 4 is also just random example. The actual duration would need to be fine tuned. It might even be needed that the stun immunity duration needs to be increased.

Evergreen

NordJitsu wrote: »

Its time to talk about Dark Talons. This skill is without a doubt the most broken ability in the game. It is, perhaps, the most broken ability in the history of MMOs.

I really hope the devs take a look at your post as it is probably one of the most well thought out articulated posts I've read so far on these forums. Fixing the DragonKnight's Darktalons will kill two birds with one stone as well with the problem of combining this overpowered CC with the vampire ultimate in pvp.

Harbingers

Alandauron wrote: »

Harbingers wrote: »

I lol'd when I read this, give it up nord.

Also, it's classified as a root as I'm sure you've been told by now.

Sad to see you of all people chiming in to support this. You should be ashamed

I have witnessed the nerf of DK's every major and most of the minors patches for the past year. Enough is enough, it's not OP.

I'll let you in on a little secret, dodge roll away from DK, not towards them. ;p

davidetombab16_ESO

Harbingers wrote: »

Alandauron wrote: »

Harbingers wrote: »

I lol'd when I read this, give it up nord.

Also, it's classified as a root as I'm sure you've been told by now.

Sad to see you of all people chiming in to support this. You should be ashamed

I have witnessed the nerf of DK's every major and most of the minors patches for the past year. Enough is enough, it's not OP.

I'll let you in on a little secret, dodge roll away from DK, not towards them. ;p

I ll tell u a little secret , u can t.

NordJitsu

@Harbingers‌

Not sure why you're defending a broken mechanic. I get that you want to use it, but I trust that you're a good enough player to be effective without broken gameplay mechanics supporting you.

The only argument against fixing this skill so far has been "just use CC break" (which you obviously can't.) So my responses so far have been to explain the mechanics of the game to people who are obviously misinformed. You aren't misinformed though I don't think, so I can only assume you're protecting your broken toy because you like taking advantage of its brokenness.

Dodge rolling away does nothing. They can instantly lock you down again because the dodge will not take you out of the radius of the skill. The only option, which I use, is to Bolt Escape away and then roll dodge.

That's not fair to Templars, Night Blades, other DKs, or Sorcs who don't use Bolt Escape.

NordJitsu

@Jarnhand‌

See that's just the thing. You'd think it was a bug, but it isn't.

This was a premeditated change by the developers. All CC used to be broken in the same way (left + right mouse) and give a 7 sec immunity. Then they came up with the idea of soft and hard CC. Soft has to be roll dodged out of.

For most CC, the roll dodge works fine. For Dark Talons, it does not, because of the radius of the skill and the distance that roll dodge takes you.

Ya know what though? Read the OP. Its all in the darn OP. I'm done responding to people who aren't interested in actually learning the mechanics or intelligently discussing the issue. If you read the OP, or any of the rest of the thread, you'd see that this thread is asking for mechanical changes, not a nerf (damage reduction, cost increase, ect.) Those were posited as options in the OP, but throughout the thread I've said that a 7 sec immunity after roll dodge would be the best option.

Alandauron

@NordJitsu‌, lol just copy/paste "A 7 second immunity after dodge roll would fix this issue" in response to everyone crying "Don't nerf my precious broken talons!"

Harbingers

Good thing they just buffed Dark Talons!

Harbingers

davidetombab16_ESO wrote: »

Harbingers wrote: »

Alandauron wrote: »

Harbingers wrote: »

I lol'd when I read this, give it up nord.

Also, it's classified as a root as I'm sure you've been told by now.

Sad to see you of all people chiming in to support this. You should be ashamed

I have witnessed the nerf of DK's every major and most of the minors patches for the past year. Enough is enough, it's not OP.

I'll let you in on a little secret, dodge roll away from DK, not towards them. ;p

I ll tell u a little secret , u can t.

Try Harder.

NordJitsu

Harbingers wrote: »

Good thing they just buffed Dark Talons!

Ya my jaw literally dropped. It was more of a fix to things not working properly than a buff though.

Harbingers

NordJitsu wrote: »

Harbingers wrote: »

Good thing they just buffed Dark Talons!

Ya my jaw literally dropped. It was more of a fix to things not working properly than a buff though.

Remember this is in your eyes. not metrics.

dnotecmb16_ESO

I don't like nerfing things, so I'll simply ask if we can make Encase as good as Dark Talons.

Thanks.

NordJitsu

dnotecmb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't like nerfing things, so I'll simply ask if we can make Encase as good as Dark Talons.

Thanks.

Then we'd have two broken skills instead of one....?

captain_awesome

Yeah, this sort of OP *** makes me completely uninterested in pvp.
25 people on 1 guy and he doesn't die. Cant be CC'd and kills 13 of us.

Bullcrap.

It needs a giant nerf, pvp is dead for me until this shiat is fixed.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Looks like dark talons is working as intended. In fact on the PTS they have buffed it

Harbingers

captain_awesome wrote: »

Yeah, this sort of OP *** makes me completely uninterested in pvp.

It needs a giant nerf.

TY! no need for them folks round PvP.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

It is working as intended because if you are SOFT CC'd via Root/slow you can still cast spells and retaliate, while a hard CC knockdown,Stun,Disorient you can break out of since those forms of CC literally make your character action-less.

chrisub17_ESO104

Nehemia wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Another nerf x thread. Please just L2P

Against unavoidable ability? Right.

I play DK myself, and I am in agreement with OP. A immobilize skill that ignores all counter functions is way too powerful, not to mention it costs next to nothing.

It's not unavoidable. There are also direct counters, several in fact both group and single.

If you want to argue that talons is OP, at least get your facts straight.

Slyfe

captain_awesome wrote: »

Yeah, this sort of OP *** makes me completely uninterested in pvp.
25 people on 1 guy and he doesn't die. Cant be CC'd and kills 13 of us.

Bullcrap.

It needs a giant nerf, pvp is dead for me until this shiat is fixed.

Why are there 25 people sitting that close to this one guy in the first place. That's some serious blob tactics there. Cyrodiil is a big place.. spread out a little bit

NordJitsu

So they also changed it so that 99% of AoE's can only hit 6 targets at one time.

But they made an exception. Dark Talons.

You have a messed up sense of humor ZOS.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Are you guys aware of the issues? Why is this skill exempted from every one of the games balancing mechanics? This is going to ruin meta.

If the problem goes unchecked I know quite a few subs that you will lose, including possibly my own. I love this game but this crap is getting ridiculous.

Harbingers

Goodbye!