What if Zenimax disables the shared DPS API?

Necrotech_Master

im surprised this thread is still going on for 9 pages lol

read through it and its still the same circular argument

at this point ill just say, if your having problems getting into a group that has a dps requirement, it is NOT because of your build

the trial guild i run with usually has on avg 4-6 of the people who roster for the trial using HA builds right now, and we have been progging vKA HM (we have been making it to execute phase on falgravn, and just need more practice there to get through it)

so HA builds are definitely NOT excluded, and i even see some LFG zone chats explicitly looking for HA sorcs right now

after seeing the changes on the PTS, i doubt HA builds will be affected much, if at all (oh boy possibly replace 1 set (storm master) and a small -10% change on empower, most people experimenting with it could still easily hit 85k+ dps on a HA build which is more than enough to complete any content assuming you know mechanics)

the only place i could see where a 1 bar build may be excluded would be cloudrest trial, but that is purely due to the mechanics there

Tradewind

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im surprised this thread is still going on for 9 pages lol
read through it and its still the same circular argument

The most noteworthy points of what they have said thus far are:

1. Raid leaders require this function to select people for the raids.
2. Players require this function to avoid carrying players who are not contributing effectively.
3. Everyone likes this function because it can help others improve DPS.
4. It is an excellent function if used by those who are training. (Then they will ask for a screenshot of one parse.)
   Did i miss any?
   

What I say:

1. Raid Leaders should not use this function to select players.
2. Players should not use this function to avoid weaker players and choose only the stronger ones.
3. Nobody needs this function to help others improve their damage.
4. It is an excellent function if used only by those who are training.(Should be disabled to avoid discrimination.)
   Did i miss any?

They all think that I should join groups or guilds of weaker people, and I belive that they don't need this tool (DPS Sharing) to join groups or guilds where the stronger ones are.

So far, It's been a nice treat and we almost agree on one point

Eliran

No offence but honestly it feels like you have bad DPS and that's why you are bitter about it ..

For me its important to know my DPS and other people DPS to make sure everyone carry their weights and no one is getting carried ...

Its not fun to see I am 80% of total DPS and then other DD blame other people for their bad play :S

Tradewind

Eliran wrote: »

No offence but honestly it feels like you have bad DPS and that's why you are bitter about it ..

For me its important to know my DPS and other people DPS to make sure everyone carry their weights and no one is getting carried ...

Its not fun to see I am 80% of total DPS and then other DD blame other people for their bad play :S

Someone has told me that, and in fact, I don't have a top-tier 2bars DPS at all. But if Zenimax disables this function, I can finally enjoy the game (other classes) without being harassed because low DPS.

tmbrinks

Tradewind wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im surprised this thread is still going on for 9 pages lol
read through it and its still the same circular argument

What I say:

1. Raid Leaders should not use this function to select players.
2. Players should not use this function to avoid weaker players and choose only the stronger ones.
3. Nobody needs this function to help others improve their damage.
4. It is an excellent function if used only by those who are training.(Should be disabled to avoid discrimination.)
   Did i miss any?

They all think that I should join groups or guilds of weaker people, and I belive that they don't need this tool (DPS Sharing) to join groups or guilds where the stronger ones are.

So far, It's been a nice treat and we almost agree on one point

Raid leaders can most certainly use this feature to create the right group for them and their group members... if that means not bringing in a weaker player, that's their choice. You are not entitled to be a part of any group.

Players most certainly have a right to not be required to "carry" a player who chooses to play a weaker setup. It's not fair to waste their time because of your choice.

Players most certainly use DPS meters to improve their damage and play. Some people find great joy in striving to achieve their best and to continuously improve.

You make the choice to play the sub-par setup (one that can still clear all content in the game, maybe not at every difficulty level, but certainly every single piece of content), you need to accept that some players don't want to play with sub-par, and that's their choice.

Ratzkifal

Tradewind wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

No offence but honestly it feels like you have bad DPS and that's why you are bitter about it ..

For me its important to know my DPS and other people DPS to make sure everyone carry their weights and no one is getting carried ...

Its not fun to see I am 80% of total DPS and then other DD blame other people for their bad play :S

Someone has told me that, and in fact, I don't have a top-tier 2bars DPS at all. But if Zenimax disables this function, I can finally enjoy the game (other classes) without being harassed because low DPS.

And I told you that this is not going to happen. Even in dungeons everyone can tell how much damage you are dealing without needing any fancy addons. I play tank. My addons cannot tell me which damage dealer is dealing what percent of damage. But sometimes it is very obvious which of the damage dealers can oneshot the adds and which damage dealer needs three hits to do it.
Your suggestion achieves nothing. Player behavior was exactly the same before these features were added. All they do is allow us to get the facts rather than speculating about what deals how much damage and that can help you get better at the game.

TaSheen

Let me tell you how things went in WoW when I played. I had really no issues with wanting to raid - I would not get into groups (because in WoW especially, hunter tanks were..... um.... persona non grata back then) so I just blew it off.

But then, my family and a bunch of friends decided to play. And a couple of them had some real issues with raiding groups. So I set up a "fam and friends" guild, and once we all got to max level (whatever it was at the time - 90 maybe? Long time back now) we raided.

With me (the hunter) as the tank (until nephew got through school and took over). And after a while I had people I didn't know start asking to raid with us. Y'know what I used to decide yes or no? Gear score, and DPS logs - because we were usually a bit short on DDs.

That's how games work. Anyone who runs a raid (or trial, here) group is ABSOLUTELY ALLOWED to not accept people who don't meet whatever the raid/trial lead decides is the cut off.

This is really a - um..... well, I'm not going to post that because I do like my posting privs. But you're not going to change anything by beating this VERY dead horse, period.

There is no discrimination in the options for being invited to raids/trials. The leads make the requirements, and are FULLY allowed to do so in this (and many other) games.

FantasticFreddie

Let's follow this logic through to its natural conclusion, shall we.

According to you, we shouldn't measure dps in any way, ever.

And raid leads should just select their dps..... how? Blindly select dps for a GS prog at random? And then just suck it up and deal with the people who aren't performing up to par?

I will tell you what happens. The good players leave. Eventually they get fed up with people who can't or won't improve, and they quit.
What happened to your vHRC hm? That's right, you didn't clear. That is the natural consequenceof not caring about performance. Rather than LEARN, make a group with some minimum requirements, and go back and try again, you just repeatedly complain about how the upper tier dps and supports should be forced to carry the low dps through clears whether they like it or not, and no, that's ridiculous and bad for the game.

If you want to improve your build, post it and we'll all take a look. If you want to improve your rotation let's talk about it. If you have a disability to work around we can talk about addons or builds that help you out.

But demanding that people get tricked into carrying you through content is entitlement at its peak.

Ratzkifal

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Let's follow this logic through to its natural conclusion, shall we.

According to you, we shouldn't measure dps in any way, ever.

And raid leads should just select their dps..... how? Blindly select dps for a GS prog at random? And then just suck it up and deal with the people who aren't performing up to par?

I will tell you what happens. The good players leave. Eventually they get fed up with people who can't or won't improve, and they quit.
What happened to your vHRC hm? That's right, you didn't clear. That is the natural consequenceof not caring about performance. Rather than LEARN, make a group with some minimum requirements, and go back and try again, you just repeatedly complain about how the upper tier dps and supports should be forced to carry the low dps through clears whether they like it or not, and no, that's ridiculous and bad for the game.

If you want to improve your build, post it and we'll all take a look. If you want to improve your rotation let's talk about it. If you have a disability to work around we can talk about addons or builds that help you out.

But demanding that people get tricked into carrying you through content is entitlement at its peak.

Very true. Sadly you cannot reason with someone who has blocked you.

FantasticFreddie

Ratzkifal wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Let's follow this logic through to its natural conclusion, shall we.

According to you, we shouldn't measure dps in any way, ever.

And raid leads should just select their dps..... how? Blindly select dps for a GS prog at random? And then just suck it up and deal with the people who aren't performing up to par?

I will tell you what happens. The good players leave. Eventually they get fed up with people who can't or won't improve, and they quit.
What happened to your vHRC hm? That's right, you didn't clear. That is the natural consequenceof not caring about performance. Rather than LEARN, make a group with some minimum requirements, and go back and try again, you just repeatedly complain about how the upper tier dps and supports should be forced to carry the low dps through clears whether they like it or not, and no, that's ridiculous and bad for the game.

If you want to improve your build, post it and we'll all take a look. If you want to improve your rotation let's talk about it. If you have a disability to work around we can talk about addons or builds that help you out.

But demanding that people get tricked into carrying you through content is entitlement at its peak.

Very true. Sadly you cannot reason with someone who has blocked you.

Halp I'm being discriminate d against

CompM4s

Tradewind wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

Reality is not everyone gets to win. Its like back in school; not everyone can make the varsity team. It may seem insensitive, but disabled people don’t make varsity either. At least zos makes some great accommodations for disabled players and provides plenty of content they can complete. Just not Vet Hm Trials.

Let's talk a little more seriously, although I bet this topic will be blocked.

Do you agree that all players should pay the same price for the game, expansions, and subscription and then only some can fully enjoy the game?
Players who have difficulties in gameplay should not necessarily be better or equal to players who have no problems. But these players fully deserve the right to achieve the same end goals as any other player. Even Zenimax agrees with this, and that's why they created Oakensoul. But you all reject these players simply because they can't parse or play the way you want them to. They paid the same price as everyone else.

And the worst part is the fact that they are excluded when they pay the same price as everyone else. And no, I'm not saying they sloud pay less or more, I'm saying they pay the same and:

• They deserve same respect from both the community and Zenimax. And no, they don't have it.
  

I think everyone should pay exactly the same amount. Everyone can achieve the same end goals in this game. Some might have to get carried or pay for titles. But its not everyones obligation to provide carries.

KiltMaster

1) Raid leads want everyone to carry their own weight

2) If you're not carrying your own weight, you are being carried.

3) Not a lot of people offer carries for free

4) Want Godslayer but refuse to improve? Buy a carry

isadoraisacat

CompM4s wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

Reality is not everyone gets to win. Its like back in school; not everyone can make the varsity team. It may seem insensitive, but disabled people don’t make varsity either. At least zos makes some great accommodations for disabled players and provides plenty of content they can complete. Just not Vet Hm Trials.

Let's talk a little more seriously, although I bet this topic will be blocked.

Do you agree that all players should pay the same price for the game, expansions, and subscription and then only some can fully enjoy the game?
Players who have difficulties in gameplay should not necessarily be better or equal to players who have no problems. But these players fully deserve the right to achieve the same end goals as any other player. Even Zenimax agrees with this, and that's why they created Oakensoul. But you all reject these players simply because they can't parse or play the way you want them to. They paid the same price as everyone else.

And the worst part is the fact that they are excluded when they pay the same price as everyone else. And no, I'm not saying they sloud pay less or more, I'm saying they pay the same and:

• They deserve same respect from both the community and Zenimax. And no, they don't have it.
  

I think everyone should pay exactly the same amount. Everyone can achieve the same end goals in this game. Some might have to get carried or pay for titles. But its not everyones obligation to provide carries.

Tradewind wrote: »

How bad would it be if ZOS disables this API?
Why do players need to see and know other players' DPS? In my opinion, this creates more conflict between players than anything else. It's only because players can see other players' DPS that they harass, bully, and make fun of those who have lower DPS. In your opinion, how bad would this be for the game and why?

Hey buddy what is your in game name ? I think I got a guild you could have some fun in that’s more relaxed one bar players if you are interested. No elitism
Or worrying about dps or any of that just people
Trying to have fun and play the game. Let me know

squinquargesimus

At this point it's hard to tell what the arguments even are, but if this is some attempt at advocacy you're doing a terrible job at it. You can't just listen to one or two people who support your narrative, then speak over every disabled person who disagrees with you, as you have done in this thread.

Aside from this, you cannot expect people to invite you to their groups just to prove your point. Maybe they don't have free spots, or maybe, and this is perfectly legitimate, they just don't jive with your personality.

Nor would disabling DPS measuring (a function many people, including HA players and disabled players, incidentally, payed irl money for in the form of trial dummies) actually help. I don't need DPS measuring to tell which one of us is doing badly in a dungeon, and neither does the second DPS. People who are toxic will be so regardless -- you're trying to take things away from people to solve an issue that cannot be solved that way, which we know for a fact, because it existed before DPS measuring was introduced.

Ph1p

Tradewind wrote: »

Raid Leaders should not use this function to select players.

I lead a regular introductory run for vet trials and we set a very low requirement (less than 40k), which basically just ensures people don't have random gear and do more than just light attack. We do this to ensure a decent chance of success, because if we just wiped week after week, no one would join any more. If people are uncomfortable sharing their DPS in public, they can send me their parse in private. If they are inexperienced, we provide tips and suggestions based on what they shared. What do you suggest instead?

I am also part of a progression group. If we gave Sunspire HM a try, we would need 3 DDs that can pass the portal DPS check on Nahviintaas. How does the raid lead decide who is best suited? Why should they just accept a "oh yeah, I can parse 50k on a 6 million dummy, trust me"?

Tradewind wrote: »

Players should not use this function to avoid weaker players and choose only the stronger ones.

I think it's not about "weaker" or "stronger" but about the best fit. Why shouldn't players be able to play with people whose ambitions, experience, and outputs match their own? What gives you the right to dictate how 11 other players should choose their 12th? Many PUG groups demand that you link an achievement - would you get rid of that, too? If your football team wants to sign on a new striker, wouldn't they compare stats to find the best one?

Tradewind wrote: »

Nobody needs this function to help others improve their damage.

Your next point directly contradicts this. You get the best results from training if someone more experienced with the game/class/build can give you constructive feedback. Plus, it's all opt-in and voluntary, so why restrict the functionality to share your stats to get advice?

Tradewind wrote: »

It is an excellent function if used only by those who are training.(Should be disabled to avoid discrimination.)

So because some toxic people abuse this functionality, it should be removed for everyone else? There are also jerks who insult people via chat - do we get rid of that, too? My company looks at the sales and costs shared by each department - should we stop doing that because an underperforming unit might be embarrassed?

Tradewind

@Ph1p I will reply to you, but first, I have a question for everyone.

Why can't we queue light attacks? After one light attack or heavy attack, we can queue skills to be "auto" cast, but why not light attacks? Is there any reason for this?

squinquargesimus

Tradewind wrote: »

@Ph1p I will reply to you, but first, I have a question for everyone.

Why can't we queue light attacks? After one light attack or heavy attack, we can queue skills to be "auto" cast, but why not light attacks? Is there any reason for this?

We can though? When I'm on my Templar, I queue light attacks during execute phase all the time. The timing is just finicky with non channeled abilities, and it's easier to overwrite with another ability.

Cirran

I bought this game way back at release. I tried several times to play the game long term all the way to 2016 but it never kept my interest. Being able to be an evil race or criminal with little or no consequences. RPers sitting in public dungeons and flooding chat with garbage. Mounts spending more time disappearing, stuttering, or getting stuck on everything from invisible rocks, trees and cobble stones. Among some other things prevented me from enjoying my time in ESO. I took a several year break and just recently came back to see how ESO has evolved.
To be honest I am having a good time and love what they have done to the open world.

I have to say after reading this thread [snip] I am wondering if I made a bad choice to come back to ESO.

Cirran
[edited for bashing]

Tradewind

Cirran wrote: »

I bought this game way back at release. I tried several times to play the game long term all the way to 2016 but it never kept my interest. Being able to be an evil race or criminal with little or no consequences. RPers sitting in public dungeons and flooding chat with garbage. Mounts spending more time disappearing, stuttering, or getting stuck on everything from invisible rocks, trees and cobble stones. Among some other things prevented me from enjoying my time in ESO. I took a several year break and just recently came back to see how ESO has evolved.
To be honest I am having a good time and love what they have done to the open world.

I have to say after reading this thread [snip] I am wondering if I made a bad choice to come back to ESO.

Cirran

I won't say that Zenimax encourages toxicity, but when other players bully, make jokes, reject or kick out players because they have low DPS or can't perform better, and Zenimax does nothing about it, what can we say?
So far, the best Zenimax will do to avoid toxicity is to nerf HA builds for those players who can't perform better. Because these players are "getting too close" to the Top-Tier players. It's not about they are better, or that they will ever be better it's about they are "close".
Penalizing players who are already struggling to improve is not helpful at all.

[snip]
[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

Zastrix

Tradewind wrote: »

I won't say that Zenimax encourages toxicity, but when other players bully, make jokes, reject or kick out players because they have low DPS or can't perform better, and Zenimax does nothing about it, what can we say?

They can. You just report the player. The medium you want to remove is used in most cases for good reasons. Just because of a handful of people it shouldn't be removed. People use money for illegal activities so should money be removed from the world? People use the internet for toxic behavior so should the internet be removed?

Tradewind

Zastrix wrote: »

They can.

Of course, they can, and with features like DPS sharing, they have even less work to do it.

[snip]
[edited for discussing moderator action(s)]

thorwyn

S Of course, they can, and with features like DPS sharing, they have even less work to do it.

They would have even more less work if they would just remove ingame communication for good. Talking is the root of all toxicity if you ask me. So let's remove it to protect people from being harrassed.

VaranisArano

Cirran wrote: »

I bought this game way back at release. I tried several times to play the game long term all the way to 2016 but it never kept my interest. Being able to be an evil race or criminal with little or no consequences. RPers sitting in public dungeons and flooding chat with garbage. Mounts spending more time disappearing, stuttering, or getting stuck on everything from invisible rocks, trees and cobble stones. Among some other things prevented me from enjoying my time in ESO. I took a several year break and just recently came back to see how ESO has evolved.
To be honest I am having a good time and love what they have done to the open world.

I have to say after reading this thread [snip] I am wondering if I made a bad choice to come back to ESO.

Cirran
[edited for bashing]

I'm not sure what this thread has to do with either your stated reasons for leaving or what you enjoy now.

If you are having a good time and love what ESO has done with the open world, then the issues with Trials groups probably won't impact your enjoyment anytime soon.

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

They can.

Of course, they can, and with features like DPS sharing, they have even less work to do it.

[snip]

You have the right to your opinion, but that doesn't mean you are immune to the consequences of expressing your opinion

[edited to remove quote]

Tradewind

[snip]

It's time for me to head to Craglorn and search for skilled players who can help me finally conquer vHRC HM. The challenging trial that has yet to be defeated.

[edited for baiting]

edit: OMG!

Ragnarok0130

Sarannah wrote: »

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

Players like me, who do not like having their privacy invaded, also care about other players seeing their DPS(and other stuff). Unless I specifically share something about my account/character with another player, they have no right knowing about it. Besides privacy and toxicity there are probably even more reasons for not wanting to share DPS.

And for the record, my DPS is terrible... as I always tank in groupcontent.

PS: I'm not using add-ons, so if there is an option to turn off other players seeing my DPS, where is it??

Your privacy is not invaded via group DPS sharing while in a group because there is no expectation of privacy in a group just like when you have a private conversation in a crowd at a shopping mall and people overhear you.

As others have said we will always know when someone has weak DPS in a group by the way a fight goes. Last night in a random normal dungeon my healer in ROJO/symph did 52% of the DPS so the only assumption I could make was both DPS players were not performing. We didn’t kick the DPS or even mention it. The tank and I just continued the mission and completed the dungeon.

ZOS_Kraken

Hello,

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole. Please remember to keep the conversation on topic and respect each others opinions.

Zos_Kraken

kringled_1

So, Tradewind, have you proposed any other means by which raid leads can put together a group for difficult trial achievements with a chance of clearing? Or is your vision still one where groups take on all applicants, wipe repeatedly if they don't luck into enough damage to pass dps checks, and disband?

Soarora

With the amount of times zos has had to come in here and nuke things I’m surprised they haven’t closed this.

Tradewind

Soarora wrote: »

With the amount of times zos has had to come in here and nuke things I’m surprised they haven’t closed this.

Given how crucial and so good this function is for players, it's improbable that they'll choose to close it.
However, there is a high possibility of players being banned for expressing their opinions about how bad this function is. Let's hope that they receive at least one warning before any drastic action is taken.