Heavy Attack Builds

fizl101

axi wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

...
The number I used was not representative of a real raid scenario as i described and is purely fictional to illustrate a point. ....

Would you be so kind to post some real numbers, or do we now post fictional numbers just that something get nerfed?

Real numbers from real fighhts. 25 minutes godslayer with all DDs being one bar heavy attack setups https://www.esologs.com/reports/ZTKLwCzhtj4QRx2G/

Bear in mind Sunspire was designed when 80k damage was uber, and godslayers were possible then. I'm not surprised that oakenbuilds could also do that. Those people still had to know the mechanics, be very situationally aware, and very practiced at Vet HM to achieve it. I have watched a vid of an oaken godslayer, and i would be willing to bet they had all done it before on 2 bar builds, and were very experienced end game players having a bit of fun on oaken builds.

Schared

fizl101 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

...
The number I used was not representative of a real raid scenario as i described and is purely fictional to illustrate a point. ....

Would you be so kind to post some real numbers, or do we now post fictional numbers just that something get nerfed?

Real numbers from real fighhts. 25 minutes godslayer with all DDs being one bar heavy attack setups https://www.esologs.com/reports/ZTKLwCzhtj4QRx2G/

Bear in mind Sunspire was designed when 80k damage was uber, and godslayers were possible then. I'm not surprised that oakenbuilds could also do that. Those people still had to know the mechanics, be very situationally aware, and very practiced at Vet HM to achieve it. I have watched a vid of an oaken godslayer, and i would be willing to bet they had all done it before on 2 bar builds, and were very experienced end game players having a bit of fun on oaken builds.

You amke an interesting point but once more the focus on "just damage" is far to hard. I assume you have entered the sunspire raid before. I would argue that the most challenging parts for a godslayer are surviving on trash, lokke beam-phase and navitaas trash phase. However generally the issue there is not actualy lacking damage but rather people dying. But with 30k hp and all mayor/minor defensives buffs they can easily take twice to thrice the damage before tipping over. So while you are technically correct those mechanics are simply not threatening.

fizl101

Schared wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

...
The number I used was not representative of a real raid scenario as i described and is purely fictional to illustrate a point. ....

Would you be so kind to post some real numbers, or do we now post fictional numbers just that something get nerfed?

Real numbers from real fighhts. 25 minutes godslayer with all DDs being one bar heavy attack setups https://www.esologs.com/reports/ZTKLwCzhtj4QRx2G/

Bear in mind Sunspire was designed when 80k damage was uber, and godslayers were possible then. I'm not surprised that oakenbuilds could also do that. Those people still had to know the mechanics, be very situationally aware, and very practiced at Vet HM to achieve it. I have watched a vid of an oaken godslayer, and i would be willing to bet they had all done it before on 2 bar builds, and were very experienced end game players having a bit of fun on oaken builds.

You amke an interesting point but once more the focus on "just damage" is far to hard. I assume you have entered the sunspire raid before. I would argue that the most challenging parts for a godslayer are surviving on trash, lokke beam-phase and navitaas trash phase. However generally the issue there is not actualy lacking damage but rather people dying. But with 30k hp and all mayor/minor defensives buffs they can easily take twice to thrice the damage before tipping over. So while you are technically correct those mechanics are simply not threatening.

Yep, I've done vet and HM (and the separate speed run etc but not all in one run). People will still die unless they are very aware and knowledgeable about the mechs, knowing when they can trust the healer vs roll dodge. 30k health on ice cages is more likely a liability than a help. HM/Godslayer wont suddenly be easy but oakenbuilds will give more people the confidence to try it.

On a previous post someone mentioned that some people prefer the dynamism and more primal feel of 2 bar builds, and that isn't going away. I do vet trials/HM and enjoy both my 1 bar and 2 bar builds. If it means that its easier to fill a trial that is likely to succeed I'm happy to have a HA build player so that we can have an enjoyable run. VRG/VDSR HM? I suspect it will be beyond all oaken groups as you end up losing out on many support buffs from players wearing EC etc and the damage cap will cause struggles.

Maybe it will give people the interest in endgame to then try again with 2 bar builds and hit even higher and harder to get those other achievements

axi

fizl101 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

...
The number I used was not representative of a real raid scenario as i described and is purely fictional to illustrate a point. ....

Would you be so kind to post some real numbers, or do we now post fictional numbers just that something get nerfed?

Real numbers from real fighhts. 25 minutes godslayer with all DDs being one bar heavy attack setups https://www.esologs.com/reports/ZTKLwCzhtj4QRx2G/

Bear in mind Sunspire was designed when 80k damage was uber, and godslayers were possible then. I'm not surprised that oakenbuilds could also do that. Those people still had to know the mechanics, be very situationally aware, and very practiced at Vet HM to achieve it. I have watched a vid of an oaken godslayer, and i would be willing to bet they had all done it before on 2 bar builds, and were very experienced end game players having a bit of fun on oaken builds.

I will have to disagree here. When sunspire was released DPS on dummy was already around 100k especially with DoT meta that came one patch after. Bear in mind we are talking about old dummy that had less debuffs applied (no alkosh, no major vulnerability, no elemental catalyst etc) so if we would send current dummy back in time to 2019/20 than 125k+ would be possible. Belive it or not but base two bar setups DPS havn't changed that drastically. It's just players experience and group optimisations that greatly improved.

Yes people who completed that godslayer are all experienced with mechanics but that is not the point. Everyone needs to be experienced with mechanics to complete trifecta.

Schared

fizl101 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

...
The number I used was not representative of a real raid scenario as i described and is purely fictional to illustrate a point. ....

Would you be so kind to post some real numbers, or do we now post fictional numbers just that something get nerfed?

Real numbers from real fighhts. 25 minutes godslayer with all DDs being one bar heavy attack setups https://www.esologs.com/reports/ZTKLwCzhtj4QRx2G/

Bear in mind Sunspire was designed when 80k damage was uber, and godslayers were possible then. I'm not surprised that oakenbuilds could also do that. Those people still had to know the mechanics, be very situationally aware, and very practiced at Vet HM to achieve it. I have watched a vid of an oaken godslayer, and i would be willing to bet they had all done it before on 2 bar builds, and were very experienced end game players having a bit of fun on oaken builds.

You amke an interesting point but once more the focus on "just damage" is far to hard. I assume you have entered the sunspire raid before. I would argue that the most challenging parts for a godslayer are surviving on trash, lokke beam-phase and navitaas trash phase. However generally the issue there is not actualy lacking damage but rather people dying. But with 30k hp and all mayor/minor defensives buffs they can easily take twice to thrice the damage before tipping over. So while you are technically correct those mechanics are simply not threatening.

Yep, I've done vet and HM (and the separate speed run etc but not all in one run). People will still die unless they are very aware and knowledgeable about the mechs, knowing when they can trust the healer vs roll dodge. 30k health on ice cages is more likely a liability than a help. HM/Godslayer wont suddenly be easy but oakenbuilds will give more people the confidence to try it.

On a previous post someone mentioned that some people prefer the dynamism and more primal feel of 2 bar builds, and that isn't going away. I do vet trials/HM and enjoy both my 1 bar and 2 bar builds. If it means that its easier to fill a trial that is likely to succeed I'm happy to have a HA build player so that we can have an enjoyable run. VRG/VDSR HM? I suspect it will be beyond all oaken groups as you end up losing out on many support buffs from players wearing EC etc and the damage cap will cause struggles.

Maybe it will give people the interest in endgame to then try again with 2 bar builds and hit even higher and harder to get those other achievements

I understand that you see it as stepstone into content but I wholeheartetly disagree. Players that know stuff are generally not toxic about sharing it and its really easy to improve.
I also disagree with the example you brough up while ur correct higher hp makes it harder to heal through they do receive the "more healing taken buffs" aswell forgot name rn. But I wont get hung up on the example just trying to elaborate. to pick a mechanic at random for that raid - the mayor buffs + aegis + 30k means that the meteors that drop on trash can be virtually ignored same for like idk the lothis bolts in asylum. DD's used to get oneshot by those now you can phasetank~ iam guessing 3 without even blocking. As you brought up DSR as an example - I just recently bumped into a 104k Single target log there which Id say is quite good.
The argument about heavy attack getting into raids is funny to me personally - as I at times engage with the very bottom end of the spectrum they actualy encounter both NOT being invited because of their build, getting kicked mid-fight and overall less groups for stuff that goes beyond just "clearing".

Schared

axi wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

...
The number I used was not representative of a real raid scenario as i described and is purely fictional to illustrate a point. ....

Would you be so kind to post some real numbers, or do we now post fictional numbers just that something get nerfed?

Real numbers from real fighhts. 25 minutes godslayer with all DDs being one bar heavy attack setups https://www.esologs.com/reports/ZTKLwCzhtj4QRx2G/

Bear in mind Sunspire was designed when 80k damage was uber, and godslayers were possible then. I'm not surprised that oakenbuilds could also do that. Those people still had to know the mechanics, be very situationally aware, and very practiced at Vet HM to achieve it. I have watched a vid of an oaken godslayer, and i would be willing to bet they had all done it before on 2 bar builds, and were very experienced end game players having a bit of fun on oaken builds.

I will have to disagree here. When sunspire was released DPS on dummy was already around 100k especially with DoT meta that came one patch after. Bear in mind we are talking about old dummy that had less debuffs applied (no alkosh, no major vulnerability, no elemental catalyst etc) so if we would send current dummy back in time to 2019/20 than 125k+ would be possible. Belive it or not but base two bar setups DPS havn't changed that drastically. It's just players experience and group optimisations that greatly improved.

Yes people who completed that godslayer are all experienced with mechanics but that is not the point. Everyone needs to be experienced with mechanics to complete trifecta.

Those times where wild anyway with no vuln CD and tharassians right around the corner. I critized that set in a similar manner.

Meiox

Schared wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

If its not the pvp players who calls for nerfs, its the endgame players who calls for nerfs.

Just let me have my chilled build!

But I guess in a couple weeks oakensoul-HA will be nerfed into the ground and completly useless.

Good job guys, just keep going on with posting your call for nerfs.

A blanket statement. But I would refer you to a comment I made earlier - if you like things given to you instead of working through them pay-to-win games provide exactly the experience you may be lacking.

If you want progression maybe you should choose a mmo with a gear treadmill ;-)

I just play solo and have fun doing base game dungeon alone. I can do it with 2 bars but its more chilled with oakensoul builds.
Do I hurt you in some way if I play solo this way, or what is the problem?
If the nerfs would only affects endgame raids, I would not mind it, but everytime they also hit the 'casual' solo players too.

Honestly mostly a fair point. Iam someone who does believe that an MMO should not cater to the single player experience and instead encourage socialization but I understand your point of view.
However as soloing dungeons even on Veteran Hardmodes has been possible and done as a solo before Oakensoul came around it is not like the removale or hard nerf of the set would lock you out of the content. I believe the reason you picked it up now is infact because of its simplicity - though this is obviously purely speculative.

The problem that "you" create is likely neglectable - you are right about that one. But as you call it "chill" clearing do you wonder if that attitude contributes towards the longevity of the game and if I may swing wide here - dont you think Bots could easily abuse that?

We could also say, endgame was possible without mythics, maybe ZOS should disable mythics in veteran upwards content, problem solved ;-)

Soarora

Thank you for so elegantly putting together the real argument. I’ve been struggling to explain to people that I don’t want to gatekeep content nor do I sell carries, but still have a problem with HA builds. The problem isn’t that HA can do damage, the problem is it’s So Much Easier compared to 2-bar. And it’s being suggested to new players as the easy way to endgame. And I think the root problem really is the tankiness. 3 defensive buffs is obscene. You can block through mechanics non-HA can’t (like AS Olms jumps and, well, vet DLC boss LAs, maybe even HAs*) and also have the bonus of an easy rotation with infinite mag sustain. What’s the downside? That you can’t ha while blocking? Templars can’t jab while blocking. No one can attack while roll dodging.

* HA player attitude. Not to say all who do HA are problematic, but there are problematic people who play HA. And they get away with it because they don’t die. I’ve had people pull before the tank in trash and bosses, I’ve had people stand behind me as healer when and when not it matters for mechanics, not just buffs. Additionally, HA sorc continues the path of “healers don’t matter” due to the power of matriarch. Which can’t be nerfed because sorc healers exist too.

Schared

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

If its not the pvp players who calls for nerfs, its the endgame players who calls for nerfs.

Just let me have my chilled build!

But I guess in a couple weeks oakensoul-HA will be nerfed into the ground and completly useless.

Good job guys, just keep going on with posting your call for nerfs.

A blanket statement. But I would refer you to a comment I made earlier - if you like things given to you instead of working through them pay-to-win games provide exactly the experience you may be lacking.

If you want progression maybe you should choose a mmo with a gear treadmill ;-)

I just play solo and have fun doing base game dungeon alone. I can do it with 2 bars but its more chilled with oakensoul builds.
Do I hurt you in some way if I play solo this way, or what is the problem?
If the nerfs would only affects endgame raids, I would not mind it, but everytime they also hit the 'casual' solo players too.

Honestly mostly a fair point. Iam someone who does believe that an MMO should not cater to the single player experience and instead encourage socialization but I understand your point of view.
However as soloing dungeons even on Veteran Hardmodes has been possible and done as a solo before Oakensoul came around it is not like the removale or hard nerf of the set would lock you out of the content. I believe the reason you picked it up now is infact because of its simplicity - though this is obviously purely speculative.

The problem that "you" create is likely neglectable - you are right about that one. But as you call it "chill" clearing do you wonder if that attitude contributes towards the longevity of the game and if I may swing wide here - dont you think Bots could easily abuse that?

We could also say, endgame was possible without mythics, maybe ZOS should disable mythics in veteran upwards content, problem solved ;-)

I agree mythics broke the 5-5-2 system entirely and are far to strong for a single-slot item.

Schared

Soarora wrote: »

Thank you for so elegantly putting together the real argument. I’ve been struggling to explain to people that I don’t want to gatekeep content nor do I sell carries, but still have a problem with HA builds. The problem isn’t that HA can do damage, the problem is it’s So Much Easier compared to 2-bar. And it’s being suggested to new players as the easy way to endgame. And I think the root problem really is the tankiness. 3 defensive buffs is obscene. You can block through mechanics non-HA can’t (like AS Olms jumps and, well, vet DLC boss LAs, maybe even HAs*) and also have the bonus of an easy rotation with infinite mag sustain. What’s the downside? That you can’t ha while blocking? Templars can’t jab while blocking. No one can attack while roll dodging.

* HA player attitude. Not to say all who do HA are problematic, but there are problematic people who play HA. And they get away with it because they don’t die. I’ve had people pull before the tank in trash and bosses, I’ve had people stand behind me as healer when and when not it matters for mechanics, not just buffs. Additionally, HA sorc continues the path of “healers don’t matter” due to the power of matriarch. Which can’t be nerfed because sorc healers exist too.

It is the obsession with damage that drives people to only focus on that.
I like the idea of an introductary setup to futher improve upon - but this one isnt it. Nothing about the build makes a transition to a more "classic" setup easier.

gariondavey

At the end of the day 2 bar builds are superior to 1 bar builds. By a significant margin.
1 bar builds help raise the floor.
I don't understand the anger in this thread from the op.

Necrotech_Master

gariondavey wrote: »

At the end of the day 2 bar builds are superior to 1 bar builds. By a significant margin.
1 bar builds help raise the floor.
I don't understand the anger in this thread from the op.

definitely this

i dont use a HA build because i dont want to

if high skill people want to be lazier and use a HA, then why not? i know some people who find that gameplay kind of boring and stick with 2 bar builds

i dont see anything wrong with newer/lower skill people using HA builds if it gives them the confidence to try harder content and get their first vet clears

Ingenon

[snip]

Currently in ESO, there are folks who complete veteran trials and dungeons using LA weaving two bar builds and other folks who complete veteran trials and dungeons using HA one bar builds.

When folks who use LA weaving two bar builds post that HA one bar builds should be nerfed, what is the result? The LA weaving people posting these threads still get to complete veteran trials and dungeons. The HA one bar build folks do not. [snip]


[Edited for Baiting]

Tannus15

Oh no, people who can already do the content can still do the content on a HA build.

The funny thing about this is that getting a 100k+ parse was never the hard part about doing godslayer or vRG HM or vCR+3. Getting 100k+ parse was the easiest part.

When I see a rando craglorn pug cruising in a vAS+2 i'll start to care. Until then i'll enjoying watching bad groups put together 8 sorc oakensoul groups and then still wiping.

Look at vMA. people who can do it can do it in literally any setup. pick 2 random sets and I promise you i can clear vMA. Someone who can't do it you can give them the best build in the world and they will still die over and over on the ice boss or the poison flowers.

maxjapank

I see no problem with a one-bar wonder. What it has done is encourage more players to join trials, which is great for endgame population.

Billium813

Many posts here are talking about 120k DPS vs 80k DPS for two bar vs 1 bar HA builds. IMO, the issue isn't at the top, it's in the middle. The ease of 80k DPS HA builds means that even middling players can use them. This is pushing up the middle to be a HA meta. I appreciate that HA builds have a lower ceiling, but that's really only a consolation if you're in that 120k club. [snip]

Enjoy this MS paint graph that illustrates my issue with HA builds


[Edited for Baiting]

Katlefiya

axi wrote: »

So yes every HM content can be done with DDs using one bar heavy attack setups.

I am still waiting for a concise argument why that may be a problem.

Soarora

Billium813 wrote: »

Many posts here are talking about 120k DPS vs 80k DPS for two bar vs 1 bar HA builds. IMO, the issue isn't at the top, it's in the middle. The ease of 80k DPS HA builds means that even middling players can use them. This is pushing up the middle to be a HA meta. I appreciate that HA builds have a lower ceiling, but that's really only a consolation if you're in that 120k club. [snip]

Enjoy this MS paint graph that illustrates my issue with HA builds


[Edited for Baiting]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the argument is that 2-bar = 120k+ when that's just not what most people are hitting. People working hard to get to 50k, then 60k, then 70k, then 80k, 90k, finally 100k... and now there's a build that just gives 80k-100k dps.

People can say the discussion is gatekeeping all they want but it's shutting down any conversation about WHY people take issue with HA builds (and who knows, maybe someone can change my mind). And regardless no, more people in endgame =/= happier endgame. It's rare that I see a HA player follow directions and get consequence for not. I'd be happy for more people to come to endgame, I love teaching people, but it's a matter of attitude. And again, the three defensive buffs mean there's nothing to learn.

I'm glad there's another playstyle, I really am. I don't want HA to be nerfed so that it can't be used in any content. It's just the lack of risk (more defense than a 2-bar, pretty immortal) and the lack of learning (it is more than just mechanics), that bothers me. If HA were touched all I'd want is either for oakensoul to lose one (1) of the defensive buffs and/or for there to be a bar-buffer empower skill or a skill with a long timer so that 2-bar HA can exist again.

Auldwulfe

[snip]
Now, it seems more like people that spent time beating dummies are upset that others didn't have to.
I do agree that some of it could be cleaned up a bit --- the part of targeting a pet to get around defense on the actual target, or targeting a guard to get the splash on players in PVP should be cleaned up.
I also understand, as a grandfather, myself, that some people kind of need this in order to do some of the more advanced parts of the game .... they can't "Git Gud" in that time and physical disability are a thing... unless, of course, the goal is to get rid of older players, or those with disabilities .....

At which point, I hope the younger players "Git Gud" at supporting the server costs themselves......

Auldwulfe

[Edited for possible baiting]

Tannus15

here is a great example

vSCP HM SOLO

Do you really think someone who isn't already good at the game can just throw on an oaken build and do this?

Necrotech_Master

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Many posts here are talking about 120k DPS vs 80k DPS for two bar vs 1 bar HA builds. IMO, the issue isn't at the top, it's in the middle. The ease of 80k DPS HA builds means that even middling players can use them. This is pushing up the middle to be a HA meta. I appreciate that HA builds have a lower ceiling, but that's really only a consolation if you're in that 120k club. [snip]

Enjoy this MS paint graph that illustrates my issue with HA builds


[Edited for Baiting]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the argument is that 2-bar = 120k+ when that's just not what most people are hitting. People working hard to get to 50k, then 60k, then 70k, then 80k, 90k, finally 100k... and now there's a build that just gives 80k-100k dps.

People can say the discussion is gatekeeping all they want but it's shutting down any conversation about WHY people take issue with HA builds (and who knows, maybe someone can change my mind). And regardless no, more people in endgame =/= happier endgame. It's rare that I see a HA player follow directions and get consequence for not. I'd be happy for more people to come to endgame, I love teaching people, but it's a matter of attitude. And again, the three defensive buffs mean there's nothing to learn.

I'm glad there's another playstyle, I really am. I don't want HA to be nerfed so that it can't be used in any content. It's just the lack of risk (more defense than a 2-bar, pretty immortal) and the lack of learning (it is more than just mechanics), that bothers me. If HA were touched all I'd want is either for oakensoul to lose one (1) of the defensive buffs and/or for there to be a bar-buffer empower skill or a skill with a long timer so that 2-bar HA can exist again.

certain classes already have this built in

templar (solar barrage which lasts like almost 25 sec) and DK (igneous weapons that lasts like 35 seconds) (and ive seen a video of a HA 2 bar templar solo the scalecaller peak trifecta)

most other classes have to use mages guild to regularly get empower, which at max only lasts about 10 sec, so you have to use a mages guild skill like after every 3rd heavy attack, which makes it more difficult to manage on a 2 bar build

Soarora

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Many posts here are talking about 120k DPS vs 80k DPS for two bar vs 1 bar HA builds. IMO, the issue isn't at the top, it's in the middle. The ease of 80k DPS HA builds means that even middling players can use them. This is pushing up the middle to be a HA meta. I appreciate that HA builds have a lower ceiling, but that's really only a consolation if you're in that 120k club. [snip]

Enjoy this MS paint graph that illustrates my issue with HA builds


[Edited for Baiting]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the argument is that 2-bar = 120k+ when that's just not what most people are hitting. People working hard to get to 50k, then 60k, then 70k, then 80k, 90k, finally 100k... and now there's a build that just gives 80k-100k dps.

People can say the discussion is gatekeeping all they want but it's shutting down any conversation about WHY people take issue with HA builds (and who knows, maybe someone can change my mind). And regardless no, more people in endgame =/= happier endgame. It's rare that I see a HA player follow directions and get consequence for not. I'd be happy for more people to come to endgame, I love teaching people, but it's a matter of attitude. And again, the three defensive buffs mean there's nothing to learn.

I'm glad there's another playstyle, I really am. I don't want HA to be nerfed so that it can't be used in any content. It's just the lack of risk (more defense than a 2-bar, pretty immortal) and the lack of learning (it is more than just mechanics), that bothers me. If HA were touched all I'd want is either for oakensoul to lose one (1) of the defensive buffs and/or for there to be a bar-buffer empower skill or a skill with a long timer so that 2-bar HA can exist again.

certain classes already have this built in

templar (solar barrage which lasts like almost 25 sec) and DK (igneous weapons that lasts like 35 seconds) (and ive seen a video of a HA 2 bar templar solo the scalecaller peak trifecta)

most other classes have to use mages guild to regularly get empower, which at max only lasts about 10 sec, so you have to use a mages guild skill like after every 3rd heavy attack, which makes it more difficult to manage on a 2 bar build

Right. I mean for all classes to have something like that available so anyone could make a 2-bar ha with their favorite class. Mages guild skill weaving for empower is indeed an absolute pain.

Billium813

Tannus15 wrote: »

here is a great example

vSCP HM SOLO

Do you really think someone who isn't already good at the game can just throw on an oaken build and do this?

I guess all you need is Lightning Staff, Vigor, Oaken, and dodge rolls to complete all the game has to offer. Sad really.

Tannus15

Billium813 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

here is a great example

vSCP HM SOLO

Do you really think someone who isn't already good at the game can just throw on an oaken build and do this?

I guess all you need is Lightning Staff, Vigor, Oaken, and dodge rolls to complete all the game has to offer. Sad really.

Give it a go. Please. I'd love to see it.

Psiion

Greetings,

We have had to remove some Baiting posts, and would like to leave a reminder that while we welcome constructive discussion, baiting, insulting, mocking, or otherwise provoking other forum members is never acceptable. Disagreements and debates are natural in a forum environment, but the Community Rules are in place to ensure the ESO Forums stay a welcoming place for all members of the Community to share their thoughts.

Moving forward, please keep the Community Rules in mind.

axi

Tannus15 wrote: »

here is a great example

vSCP HM SOLO

Do you really think someone who isn't already good at the game can just throw on an oaken build and do this?

Vet SCP HM solo is not specifically tied to one bar builds. Two bar setup is actually doing better job there since it offers more tools to Your disposal and ring of the pale order is better there than oakensoul anyway and dungeon itself is not that hard. If I remember correctly @luchtt even soloed trifecta there with two bar setup.

Fact that SPC can be soloed with oakensoul really doesn't bring anything into one bar heavy attack builds discossion.

Tannus15

axi wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

here is a great example

vSCP HM SOLO

Do you really think someone who isn't already good at the game can just throw on an oaken build and do this?

Vet SCP HM solo is not specifically tied to one bar builds. Two bar setup is actually doing better job there since it offers more tools to Your disposal and ring of the pale order is better there than oakensoul anyway and dungeon itself is not that hard. If I remember correctly @luchtt even soloed trifecta there with two bar setup.

Fact that SPC can be soloed with oakensoul really doesn't bring anything into one bar heavy attack builds discossion.

that's my point. people who can do crazy things like 3 minute vAS HM clears with oakensoul can already do 3 minute vAS HM clears.
people who can't clear vAS HM won't suddenly be able to just master all the mechanics because of oakensoul. for anyone who can already do 100k dps on a dummy it's going to make almost no difference. for those who can't it'll help, but they still need to master the mechanics.

it's not giving out free IR or godslayer runs.

There is a very, very small subset of people who have the reflexes and ability to do HM mechanics but don't have the ability to master dps rotations.
Anyone who gets 75k on a two bar build who suddenly gets 85k on a HA build isn't going to magically learn the skills and disciple to get into flare and drop hoarfrost and not wipe the group in vCR+3.
I don't see how it devalues any of the current content or achivements.

merpins

Top 1% players look at heavy attack builds and either use them as a meme, or don't use them at all since you can't score push with them. Bottom 20% players and casuals look at heavy attack builds and either use them to just enjoy the game more, or don't because they don't really care and want to play the way they want to play. The people complaining about heavy attack builds are mid-game players, against other mid-game players. Stop gatekeeping, if you don't like it, don't play it. Personally, I don't like how heavy attack builds feel to use, and I can already deal significantly more damage without them, so I'd never use a heavy attack build. But I'm not going around asking devs to nerf it because people are doing ok damage and can run trials? How does that hurt you in any way? It doesn't.
Oh, the bottom damage tier of HA builds is higher than the bottom damage tier of two bar builds, so people will use it and not learn the game.... Okay, and? How does that hurt you? Players that just want to do end game content but not score push can now do it. And players that want to get better at the game will find it has a very low damage ceiling and will switch to learning harder builds. This harms literally no one.

It's a great accessibility tool. Personally, I find it to be a bit too little for the handicapped crowd that plays this game. It leaves them, a friend of mine included, with basically one gameplay style if they want to do end-game content, and that's not really fun. It's great that it exists. But there should be more than just this one.

Schared

merpins wrote: »

Top 1% players look at heavy attack builds and either use them as a meme, or don't use them at all since you can't score push with them. Bottom 20% players and casuals look at heavy attack builds and either use them to just enjoy the game more, or don't because they don't really care and want to play the way they want to play. The people complaining about heavy attack builds are mid-game players, against other mid-game players. Stop gatekeeping, if you don't like it, don't play it. Personally, I don't like how heavy attack builds feel to use, and I can already deal significantly more damage without them, so I'd never use a heavy attack build. But I'm not going around asking devs to nerf it because people are doing ok damage and can run trials? How does that hurt you in any way? It doesn't.
Oh, the bottom damage tier of HA builds is higher than the bottom damage tier of two bar builds, so people will use it and not learn the game.... Okay, and? How does that hurt you? Players that just want to do end game content but not score push can now do it. And players that want to get better at the game will find it has a very low damage ceiling and will switch to learning harder builds. This harms literally no one.

It's a great accessibility tool. Personally, I find it to be a bit too little for the handicapped crowd that plays this game. It leaves them, a friend of mine included, with basically one gameplay style if they want to do end-game content, and that's not really fun. It's great that it exists. But there should be more than just this one.

Lets dissect that comment - as you accussed me of gatekeeping like half the other comments let me assure you aswell, that it is infact not my interest.
The top 1% is irrelevant because what they are doing is different from most anyway - thats why I didnt attach relevance to them.
People complaining about heavy attack builds come from all flocks of eso and you singleling out a particular group is just your own narrative.
It hurts me because it selidifies a type of game that will end up in a place that I do not enjoy and that is infact a point-of-view shared with others.

It is not an accessibility tool as it does not resemble any setup or gameplay one could move to after one has "evolved" past the setup. People get excluded because the build and those who influence the market with - lets call them other means revel in the ease of the setup.
If you are however talking about actual physical handycaps: My opinion here may offend you yet I will put it out there. I have played with individuals with underdeveloped arms and with people likely significantly older than both of us and both these gorups are able to perform at a top level. Matter the fact is that one of said older gentleman tanked for one of the best guilds of 2019-20 not only clearing content but going for world first/trifrectas/scores. And while I agree that it is sad that the tools of our time may include some people - I do not think the design should be significantly altered to include less than a percent.

I myself am really tall, but I do not expect every place to have doorframes taller than 205cm/6,72" either. This last opinion may be controversial I imagine but try to consider the other points before delving into the latter. Given this discussion may not be the time and place entire.

Schared

Tannus15 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

here is a great example

vSCP HM SOLO

Do you really think someone who isn't already good at the game can just throw on an oaken build and do this?

Vet SCP HM solo is not specifically tied to one bar builds. Two bar setup is actually doing better job there since it offers more tools to Your disposal and ring of the pale order is better there than oakensoul anyway and dungeon itself is not that hard. If I remember correctly @luchtt even soloed trifecta there with two bar setup.

Fact that SPC can be soloed with oakensoul really doesn't bring anything into one bar heavy attack builds discossion.

that's my point. people who can do crazy things like 3 minute vAS HM clears with oakensoul can already do 3 minute vAS HM clears.
people who can't clear vAS HM won't suddenly be able to just master all the mechanics because of oakensoul. for anyone who can already do 100k dps on a dummy it's going to make almost no difference. for those who can't it'll help, but they still need to master the mechanics.

it's not giving out free IR or godslayer runs.

There is a very, very small subset of people who have the reflexes and ability to do HM mechanics but don't have the ability to master dps rotations.
Anyone who gets 75k on a two bar build who suddenly gets 85k on a HA build isn't going to magically learn the skills and disciple to get into flare and drop hoarfrost and not wipe the group in vCR+3.
I don't see how it devalues any of the current content or achivements.

I believe you are missunderstanding - you dont need reflexes to do the mechanics as you are tanky enough to ignore them for the most part. And yes it is absolutely giving out free titles. Those people who are adequatly prepared to do the raid without setup have to put in a far grander amount of effort to achiev the same or lesser results. Lots of the people that now clear with the time you mentioned have infact not done it with that time before. A simple check on the consistency of their representation on the scoreboard will back up my argument here.