Anybody tested Snake in the Stars set on PTS?

Thecompton73

Panderbander wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

edit: i saw you noted that status effects arent procing it, im not sure if thats cause the status effects are considered procs themselves or if there is some other issue at hand

It was status effects tied to abilities, such as Diseased from the werewolf Claws of Life ability or Sundered from Power of the Light. Only directly applied major and minor debuffs will proc it, not ones from status effects.

if it was only per target, it would potentially be too easy to keep active on 1 target for longer periods of time

So what I mean by per target is how it is right now where a target can only be affected by the debuff once every 12 seconds from any source, meaning other players couldn't apply it to that target even if they were off cooldown. As it is right now the set will proc once per 12 seconds and that target can not be affected by the set again for 12 seconds after it was initially placed on them, similar to Plaguebreak. Plaguebreak only tracks the individual target cooldowns, though, and can continue to be applied to additional targets on subsequent attacks, whereas Snake in the Stars can not.

I definitely think that with the individual CD in place there is no need for such a long global CD on application. They should at least drop the GCD to 4 seconds so you can always have one application active, even if it's on a different target every 4 seconds.

Dr_Con

Seems to me that with the current change, when ZOS finally does address heal stacking as being an issue it will nerf this set severely. Best to address heal stacking as an issue now rather than later.

React

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

No, they need to stop beating around the bush about HOT stacking and deal with it directly rather than have some new set that's going to cause abilities that heal with damage become more dangerous to the user than their enemy.

Agreed that they really should not be adding sets to counter the problem of heal stacking/excessive healing. That being said, I am fairly certain this is their way of "balancing PVP and PVE separately". It really is a shame that they won't tackle the issue head on with adjustments to the number of hots allowed at once, or by using battle spirit; but at this point I'll take what I can get. Ball groups are genuinely destroying the PVP experience on PC NA. If there are ball groups present, engaged in fights - the entire campaign lags severely. This is undoubtedly due to the calculations caused by the 10+ hot stack on every person and being perpetually in combat due to their inability to die. They NEED to do something to address this, ASAP. Snake in the stars almost does this, but it is still lacking the AOE application potential required to actually deal with groups like this. Which is why...

Panderbander wrote: »

I like the direction this is going with a shorter duration, more procs per second, and a per-target cooldown, but I feel like for this set to really have the intended effect it shouldn't have a global 12 second cooldown in addition to the per-target cooldown.

What would you all think about having it similar to Plaguebreak where it applies to a single target per attack but the cooldown is purely target-based?

I personally feel like this would give it significantly more utility against ball groups or other tightly packed HOT stacking groups without making it oppressive against solo players.

This is exactly what I think needs to happen. But honestly, I'd be okay with this one applying to everyone simultaneously rather than once per attack - because this set applies off major+minor effects, which is far more niche than plaguebreak's "direct damage" proc condition. It should keep it's "a target can only be affected by Star Venom once every 12 seconds" cooldown, and it's "a target can only be affected by one instance of star venom at a time" cooldown. Just remove the caster's cooldown.

@ZOS_Kevin This set is VERY close to being a real answer to the HOT stack mechanic we have been complaining about for years now. The recent changes are VERY good, being less punishing to individual players and more punishing to large groups of players who are spamming heals. It just needs the caster's 12s proc coooldown removed so that it can apply to multiple people simultaneously, and it'll be a true counterplay option to ball groups/HOT stacking.

ForumBully

React wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

No, they need to stop beating around the bush about HOT stacking and deal with it directly rather than have some new set that's going to cause abilities that heal with damage become more dangerous to the user than their enemy.

Agreed that they really should not be adding sets to counter the problem of heal stacking/excessive healing. That being said, I am fairly certain this is their way of "balancing PVP and PVE separately". It really is a shame that they won't tackle the issue head on with adjustments to the number of hots allowed at once, or by using battle spirit; but at this point I'll take what I can get. Ball groups are genuinely destroying the PVP experience on PC NA. If there are ball groups present, engaged in fights - the entire campaign lags severely. This is undoubtedly due to the calculations caused by the 10+ hot stack on every person and being perpetually in combat due to their inability to die. They NEED to do something to address this, ASAP. Snake in the stars almost does this, but it is still lacking the AOE application potential required to actually deal with groups like this. Which is why...

Panderbander wrote: »

I like the direction this is going with a shorter duration, more procs per second, and a per-target cooldown, but I feel like for this set to really have the intended effect it shouldn't have a global 12 second cooldown in addition to the per-target cooldown.

What would you all think about having it similar to Plaguebreak where it applies to a single target per attack but the cooldown is purely target-based?

I personally feel like this would give it significantly more utility against ball groups or other tightly packed HOT stacking groups without making it oppressive against solo players.

This is exactly what I think needs to happen. But honestly, I'd be okay with this one applying to everyone simultaneously rather than once per attack - because this set applies off major+minor effects, which is far more niche than plaguebreak's "direct damage" proc condition. It should keep it's "a target can only be affected by Star Venom once every 12 seconds" cooldown, and it's "a target can only be affected by one instance of star venom at a time" cooldown. Just remove the caster's cooldown.

@ZOS_Kevin This set is VERY close to being a real answer to the HOT stack mechanic we have been complaining about for years now. The recent changes are VERY good, being less punishing to individual players and more punishing to large groups of players who are spamming heals. It just needs the caster's 12s proc coooldown removed so that it can apply to multiple people simultaneously, and it'll be a true counterplay option to ball groups/HOT stacking.

If HoT stacking has to be fixed with a set, do this.

Billium813

I have not tested Snake in the Stars on the PTS. I am curious though, is there any obvious indication you are effected by Snake in the Stars?

I'm just kinda worried about the interactions and the feel. Some healing in PvP isn't entirely under your control and this set procs on any healing; no restrictions. I wonder what it feels like to be applied with Snake in the Stars, maybe from long range via PotL which applies minor breach, only to have some ally killing you by dumping heals on you. Or you taking damage from seemingly nowhere because you are standing in some allies Extended Ritual circle. Seems like it could be confusing if there isn't at least some indication you are infected.

I personally like really showy indications you are effected. Something like PotLs beam, or Unstable Core, or Magicka Detonation, on me tells me exactly what is coming. It'd be nice to have something for SitS

Thecompton73

Billium813 wrote: »

I have not tested Snake in the Stars on the PTS. I am curious though, is there any obvious indication you are effected by Snake in the Stars?

I'm just kinda worried about the interactions and the feel. Some healing in PvP isn't entirely under your control and this set procs on any healing; no restrictions. I wonder what it feels like to be applied with Snake in the Stars, maybe from long range via PotL which applies minor breach, only to have some ally killing you by dumping heals on you. Or you taking damage from seemingly nowhere because you are standing in some allies Extended Ritual circle. Seems like it could be confusing if there isn't at least some indication you are infected.

I personally like really showy indications you are effected. Something like PotLs beam, or Unstable Core, or Magicka Detonation, on me tells me exactly what is coming. It'd be nice to have something for SitS

Unless you have huge numbers of extremely small HOT's ticking on you every second the net damage from the set itself won't be of much consequence as you'll likely get as much or more healing taken from each individual tick as you will SitS damage when it gets put on you. But if you're also getting smashed on with a bunch of other direct damage and healing through it with 8 HOTs ticking a second you'll be vulnerable for 4 of every sixteen seconds.

Billium813

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I have not tested Snake in the Stars on the PTS. I am curious though, is there any obvious indication you are effected by Snake in the Stars?

I'm just kinda worried about the interactions and the feel. Some healing in PvP isn't entirely under your control and this set procs on any healing; no restrictions. I wonder what it feels like to be applied with Snake in the Stars, maybe from long range via PotL which applies minor breach, only to have some ally killing you by dumping heals on you. Or you taking damage from seemingly nowhere because you are standing in some allies Extended Ritual circle. Seems like it could be confusing if there isn't at least some indication you are infected.

I personally like really showy indications you are effected. Something like PotLs beam, or Unstable Core, or Magicka Detonation, on me tells me exactly what is coming. It'd be nice to have something for SitS

Unless you have huge numbers of extremely small HOT's ticking on you every second the net damage from the set itself won't be of much consequence as you'll likely get as much or more healing taken from each individual tick as you will SitS damage when it gets put on you. But if you're also getting smashed on with a bunch of other direct damage and healing through it with 8 HOTs ticking a second you'll be vulnerable for 4 of every sixteen seconds.

I mean, PvP is rife with heals. I don't think it's unreasonable to have several HoTs ticking constantly; many under 500 per tick. Between Cleansing Rituals, Vigor, Restoring Focus, random allies throwing out Regeneration, Orbs roaming the battlefield, Altars applying minor Lifesteal to allies, Living Dark procing heals, the list is endless. I mean, I feel like running around IC I see so many green heals flashing, most sub 1000, it boggles my mind to think that each one of those could be 1170 Oblivion damage with that 100ms cooldown!!! I wonder what it'll feel like to fall back in PvP, only to have 2 healers throwing Grand Healings, Orbs, Regenerations, and Cleansing Rituals on you at 30% health. It's like "NO GET AWAY FROM ME! YOUR LOVE IS KILLING ME!" as you run from your healers and melt into a puddle.

However, I haven't tested it myself, so I don't know how it'll work out. My principle concern is the gameplay. If I start taking damage, the natural reaction is to dump more heals to survive. If I know that the reason I am taking damage from no where is because of SitS, then I know more healing will KILL ME! A showy effect to let a player know they are effected with this very unique effect seems like it would be warranted.

When I think of healing negation in ESO, the first thing I think of is the HM Grundwulf fight in Moongrave Fane. When the beetle bites you, your health bar changes color to let the player know "hey, you cannot heal right now". If you didn't have that indication, it'd be impossible to know "why am I dying right now and why aren't my heals working?!". I'v had healers standing there in the Grundwulf fight, dumping all their mag to try to save someone who can't be healed! There is no outward indication to other players. I just think that effects that negate healing (especially fast ones at 100ms), should have some kind of indication. They are such an antithesis to how players expect actions to go, that it may be frustrating to players

Thecompton73

Billium813 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I have not tested Snake in the Stars on the PTS. I am curious though, is there any obvious indication you are effected by Snake in the Stars?

I'm just kinda worried about the interactions and the feel. Some healing in PvP isn't entirely under your control and this set procs on any healing; no restrictions. I wonder what it feels like to be applied with Snake in the Stars, maybe from long range via PotL which applies minor breach, only to have some ally killing you by dumping heals on you. Or you taking damage from seemingly nowhere because you are standing in some allies Extended Ritual circle. Seems like it could be confusing if there isn't at least some indication you are infected.

I personally like really showy indications you are effected. Something like PotLs beam, or Unstable Core, or Magicka Detonation, on me tells me exactly what is coming. It'd be nice to have something for SitS

Unless you have huge numbers of extremely small HOT's ticking on you every second the net damage from the set itself won't be of much consequence as you'll likely get as much or more healing taken from each individual tick as you will SitS damage when it gets put on you. But if you're also getting smashed on with a bunch of other direct damage and healing through it with 8 HOTs ticking a second you'll be vulnerable for 4 of every sixteen seconds.

I mean, PvP is rife with heals. I don't think it's unreasonable to have several HoTs ticking constantly; many under 500 per tick. Between Cleansing Rituals, Vigor, Restoring Focus, random allies throwing out Regeneration, Orbs roaming the battlefield, Altars applying minor Lifesteal to allies, Living Dark procing heals, the list is endless. I mean, I feel like running around IC I see so many green heals flashing, most sub 1000, it boggles my mind to think that each one of those could be 1170 Oblivion damage with that 100ms cooldown!!! I wonder what it'll feel like to fall back in PvP, only to have 2 healers throwing Grand Healings, Orbs, Regenerations, and Cleansing Rituals on you at 30% health. It's like "NO GET AWAY FROM ME! YOUR LOVE IS KILLING ME!" as you run from your healers and melt into a puddle.

However, I haven't tested it myself, so I don't know how it'll work out. My principle concern is the gameplay. If I start taking damage, the natural reaction is to dump more heals to survive. If I know that the reason I am taking damage from no where is because of SitS, then I know more healing will KILL ME! A showy effect to let a player know they are effected with this very unique effect seems like it would be warranted.

When I think of healing negation in ESO, the first thing I think of is the HM Grundwulf fight in Moongrave Fane. When the beetle bites you, your health bar changes color to let the player know "hey, you cannot heal right now". If you didn't have that indication, it'd be impossible to know "why am I dying right now and why aren't my heals working?!". I'v had healers standing there in the Grundwulf fight, dumping all their mag to try to save someone who can't be healed! There is no outward indication to other players. I just think that effects that negate healing (especially fast ones at 100ms), should have some kind of indication. They are such an antithesis to how players expect actions to go, that it may be frustrating to players

You're overthinking and worrying about nothing. I play tons of solo PvP the only time I see a cascade of more than 5 numbers per second is in the middle of big zergs or being near a freindly ball group. And accounting for crits the average of each tick I see is well above 1K. So all the damage SitS does is going to be matched or even outhealed by the HoT's that are proccing it. As I said before the only time having it on you will be an issue is if you're cheesing stacked hots to survive an outnumbered situation where you're taking tons of other damage and you should really be toast.
Plus you could always run a vampire ability that cuts off outside heals or wear the Pale order ring.

AdamLAD

I have said in this in the past, and I'll say it again. Why is zenimax trying to balance PvP with sets. Solve the problem directly, not indirectly. Whilst I know sets won't effect PvE and I know it won't effect peoples builds (if u just straight up nerfed heal stacking) however after years of complete imbalance it's obvious to me that it doesn't work and issues in PvP need to be solved directly. Unfortunately you will not separate PvE and PvP.

jaws343

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I have not tested Snake in the Stars on the PTS. I am curious though, is there any obvious indication you are effected by Snake in the Stars?

I'm just kinda worried about the interactions and the feel. Some healing in PvP isn't entirely under your control and this set procs on any healing; no restrictions. I wonder what it feels like to be applied with Snake in the Stars, maybe from long range via PotL which applies minor breach, only to have some ally killing you by dumping heals on you. Or you taking damage from seemingly nowhere because you are standing in some allies Extended Ritual circle. Seems like it could be confusing if there isn't at least some indication you are infected.

I personally like really showy indications you are effected. Something like PotLs beam, or Unstable Core, or Magicka Detonation, on me tells me exactly what is coming. It'd be nice to have something for SitS

Unless you have huge numbers of extremely small HOT's ticking on you every second the net damage from the set itself won't be of much consequence as you'll likely get as much or more healing taken from each individual tick as you will SitS damage when it gets put on you. But if you're also getting smashed on with a bunch of other direct damage and healing through it with 8 HOTs ticking a second you'll be vulnerable for 4 of every sixteen seconds.

I mean, PvP is rife with heals. I don't think it's unreasonable to have several HoTs ticking constantly; many under 500 per tick. Between Cleansing Rituals, Vigor, Restoring Focus, random allies throwing out Regeneration, Orbs roaming the battlefield, Altars applying minor Lifesteal to allies, Living Dark procing heals, the list is endless. I mean, I feel like running around IC I see so many green heals flashing, most sub 1000, it boggles my mind to think that each one of those could be 1170 Oblivion damage with that 100ms cooldown!!! I wonder what it'll feel like to fall back in PvP, only to have 2 healers throwing Grand Healings, Orbs, Regenerations, and Cleansing Rituals on you at 30% health. It's like "NO GET AWAY FROM ME! YOUR LOVE IS KILLING ME!" as you run from your healers and melt into a puddle.

However, I haven't tested it myself, so I don't know how it'll work out. My principle concern is the gameplay. If I start taking damage, the natural reaction is to dump more heals to survive. If I know that the reason I am taking damage from no where is because of SitS, then I know more healing will KILL ME! A showy effect to let a player know they are effected with this very unique effect seems like it would be warranted.

When I think of healing negation in ESO, the first thing I think of is the HM Grundwulf fight in Moongrave Fane. When the beetle bites you, your health bar changes color to let the player know "hey, you cannot heal right now". If you didn't have that indication, it'd be impossible to know "why am I dying right now and why aren't my heals working?!". I'v had healers standing there in the Grundwulf fight, dumping all their mag to try to save someone who can't be healed! There is no outward indication to other players. I just think that effects that negate healing (especially fast ones at 100ms), should have some kind of indication. They are such an antithesis to how players expect actions to go, that it may be frustrating to players

You're overthinking and worrying about nothing. I play tons of solo PvP the only time I see a cascade of more than 5 numbers per second is in the middle of big zergs or being near a freindly ball group. And accounting for crits the average of each tick I see is well above 1K. So all the damage SitS does is going to be matched or even outhealed by the HoT's that are proccing it. As I said before the only time having it on you will be an issue is if you're cheesing stacked hots to survive an outnumbered situation where you're taking tons of other damage and you should really be toast.
Plus you could always run a vampire ability that cuts off outside heals or wear the Pale order ring.

Pale Order is like the worst piece of gear you could possibly run to counter this set.

It will literally kill you as you do damage to another player.

Thecompton73

jaws343 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I have not tested Snake in the Stars on the PTS. I am curious though, is there any obvious indication you are effected by Snake in the Stars?

I'm just kinda worried about the interactions and the feel. Some healing in PvP isn't entirely under your control and this set procs on any healing; no restrictions. I wonder what it feels like to be applied with Snake in the Stars, maybe from long range via PotL which applies minor breach, only to have some ally killing you by dumping heals on you. Or you taking damage from seemingly nowhere because you are standing in some allies Extended Ritual circle. Seems like it could be confusing if there isn't at least some indication you are infected.

I personally like really showy indications you are effected. Something like PotLs beam, or Unstable Core, or Magicka Detonation, on me tells me exactly what is coming. It'd be nice to have something for SitS

Unless you have huge numbers of extremely small HOT's ticking on you every second the net damage from the set itself won't be of much consequence as you'll likely get as much or more healing taken from each individual tick as you will SitS damage when it gets put on you. But if you're also getting smashed on with a bunch of other direct damage and healing through it with 8 HOTs ticking a second you'll be vulnerable for 4 of every sixteen seconds.

I mean, PvP is rife with heals. I don't think it's unreasonable to have several HoTs ticking constantly; many under 500 per tick. Between Cleansing Rituals, Vigor, Restoring Focus, random allies throwing out Regeneration, Orbs roaming the battlefield, Altars applying minor Lifesteal to allies, Living Dark procing heals, the list is endless. I mean, I feel like running around IC I see so many green heals flashing, most sub 1000, it boggles my mind to think that each one of those could be 1170 Oblivion damage with that 100ms cooldown!!! I wonder what it'll feel like to fall back in PvP, only to have 2 healers throwing Grand Healings, Orbs, Regenerations, and Cleansing Rituals on you at 30% health. It's like "NO GET AWAY FROM ME! YOUR LOVE IS KILLING ME!" as you run from your healers and melt into a puddle.

However, I haven't tested it myself, so I don't know how it'll work out. My principle concern is the gameplay. If I start taking damage, the natural reaction is to dump more heals to survive. If I know that the reason I am taking damage from no where is because of SitS, then I know more healing will KILL ME! A showy effect to let a player know they are effected with this very unique effect seems like it would be warranted.

When I think of healing negation in ESO, the first thing I think of is the HM Grundwulf fight in Moongrave Fane. When the beetle bites you, your health bar changes color to let the player know "hey, you cannot heal right now". If you didn't have that indication, it'd be impossible to know "why am I dying right now and why aren't my heals working?!". I'v had healers standing there in the Grundwulf fight, dumping all their mag to try to save someone who can't be healed! There is no outward indication to other players. I just think that effects that negate healing (especially fast ones at 100ms), should have some kind of indication. They are such an antithesis to how players expect actions to go, that it may be frustrating to players

You're overthinking and worrying about nothing. I play tons of solo PvP the only time I see a cascade of more than 5 numbers per second is in the middle of big zergs or being near a freindly ball group. And accounting for crits the average of each tick I see is well above 1K. So all the damage SitS does is going to be matched or even outhealed by the HoT's that are proccing it. As I said before the only time having it on you will be an issue is if you're cheesing stacked hots to survive an outnumbered situation where you're taking tons of other damage and you should really be toast.
Plus you could always run a vampire ability that cuts off outside heals or wear the Pale order ring.

Pale Order is like the worst piece of gear you could possibly run to counter this set.

It will literally kill you as you do damage to another player.

Only a problem for a dot heavy build (especially AOE's) wearing Pale order that gets caught with everything applied. Otherwise block or LOS for four seconds and cast a couple of burst heals if needed, which will outheal the SitS damage they trigger by 1OX to 15X each time.
That said Pale Order is not generally a very good option in PvP anyway since the gamplay is more about burst than sustained damage and even a burst of 30K in one second only gets you back 4.8K in healing.