Anybody tested Snake in the Stars set on PTS?

Udrath

Maybe they should change the set to have a conditional, like only applying to direct heals and not HoTs or AoE? Then it would be somewhat balanced and kinda counter Mara's Balm lol...but I guess that would destroy wardens bond with nature ability too

OBJnoob

I wouldn't worry about wardens @udrath and to be honest I wouldn't worry about these other singular examples either. Blood magic isn't gonna kill you. Not is an argonian popping a potion. Not is an orcs adrenaline rush.

What's gonna kill people is failure to respond to a strong DoT with a strong heal. The counter to this set is burst healing. If you try to ignore it and overly rely on crappy passive healing that is clearly only meant to be supplemental then you will die.

My warden, since that was brought up, has a small heal coming every second if I'm light attacking, a slightly bigger heal every second when I take damage, small heal from activating animal companions, vigor HoT, and burst heal + HoT from Polar Winds.

Most good builds/classes have their own ways to do similar things, and that is exactly why it's so hard to kill people, and why this set is needed. If the oblivion damage is too much then by all means give it a smaller tooltip. But the idea is good.

DerpyBossGamer

fred4 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

If it will be purged by mara's balm than it won't be very strong.

Incorrect. It is, in fact, the anti-Mara set. Mara purges every 15s at most. In the meantime it heals you for small amounts, less than 1K, up to every second. Every time it does that, you'll be hit with a 2.8K Oblivion proc.

It doesn’t work as being an anti-Mara set. In fact, from testing on the pts and dueling a LOT, all the set accomplishes is forcing every single person to run Maras so that they can purge the proc every 15 seconds. Not only is the set radically overpowered in terms of how much damage it does (1.4k free unmitigaable dps because it’s 2.8k with 50% uptime), it will also only make Maras more meta than it already is.

katorga

OBJnoob wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about wardens @udrath and to be honest I wouldn't worry about these other singular examples either. Blood magic isn't gonna kill you. Not is an argonian popping a potion. Not is an orcs adrenaline rush.

What's gonna kill people is failure to respond to a strong DoT with a strong heal. The counter to this set is burst healing. If you try to ignore it and overly rely on crappy passive healing that is clearly only meant to be supplemental then you will die.

My warden, since that was brought up, has a small heal coming every second if I'm light attacking, a slightly bigger heal every second when I take damage, small heal from activating animal companions, vigor HoT, and burst heal + HoT from Polar Winds.

Most good builds/classes have their own ways to do similar things, and that is exactly why it's so hard to kill people, and why this set is needed. If the oblivion damage is too much then by all means give it a smaller tooltip. But the idea is good.

Bingo. The counter is burst heal, and yes, the amount of passive healing is what sets a survivable class/build apart.

As much as the forums complain about "the problem with healing", cross healing, groups stacking copies of radiating regen, I think ZOS tried to tackle it with a this set. Will it work? The set will punish solo players maybe smallscale, not groups.

Tommy_The_Gun

katorga wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about wardens @udrath and to be honest I wouldn't worry about these other singular examples either. Blood magic isn't gonna kill you. Not is an argonian popping a potion. Not is an orcs adrenaline rush.

What's gonna kill people is failure to respond to a strong DoT with a strong heal. The counter to this set is burst healing. If you try to ignore it and overly rely on crappy passive healing that is clearly only meant to be supplemental then you will die.

My warden, since that was brought up, has a small heal coming every second if I'm light attacking, a slightly bigger heal every second when I take damage, small heal from activating animal companions, vigor HoT, and burst heal + HoT from Polar Winds.

Most good builds/classes have their own ways to do similar things, and that is exactly why it's so hard to kill people, and why this set is needed. If the oblivion damage is too much then by all means give it a smaller tooltip. But the idea is good.

Bingo. The counter is burst heal, and yes, the amount of passive healing is what sets a survivable class/build apart.

As much as the forums complain about "the problem with healing", cross healing, groups stacking copies of radiating regen, I think ZOS tried to tackle it with a this set. Will it work? The set will punish solo players maybe smallscale, not groups.

Yep.

Ball groups are going to have no problem with it, while an "average Joe" will for the most part keep dying...

What is very strong non-dot healing that solo players have access to ? Restoration Staff for mag builds, Two Handed Rally for stamina builds and maybe WW healing if you can sustain it (but no one plays WW much and there is a reason for it).

Aside from that, you won't be able to use any other healing and stack HoT & Some burst heal as non of the healing over time will be able to over-heal 3K oblivion damage every second.

So the issue is that while it will be effective vs solo players and will prevent them from using Vigor.... it won't work vs ball groups and small scale...

Oh and btw - what if during keep siege, some one near me casts AOE morph of Vigor or Radiating Regeneration ? I am gonna get killed simply because some one wanted to help me lol. There are so many things wrong with this set... It is causing more troubles than it solves lol.

Lortie

Similar to others that have posted here, I've done several hours of dueling with different setups on the PTS. In our testing on DoT-based setups this set was doing a absurd amount of damage. It was consistently doing 14-18% of total damage (almost always top damaging ability) over the span of 1.5mill+ dmg duels VS targets wearing Mara's. This set alone practically forces classes with no purge to run Mara's whether they want to or not.

Having even 1 person consistently apply this to you in out-numbered situations is crippling unless you have a spammable purge. And to make it worse it requires ZERO investment to get full value, something ZOS specifically said they didn't want to do.

To put it simply, it's too strong. It shouldn't do oblivion damage, it shouldn't be unaffected by Battle Spirit.

Aektann

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert please pay attention to this topic. It's extremely serious. This set can break the PVP even more!

OBJnoob

I'm still of the feeling that this set serves a purpose.

Is there a particular change to it that can be done to salvage it in everyone's eyes? Make it something other than oblivion damage? Make it percentage based on targets health? Cut the value in half?

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm still of the feeling that this set serves a purpose.

Is there a particular change to it that can be done to salvage it in everyone's eyes? Make it something other than oblivion damage? Make it percentage based on targets health? Cut the value in half?

I can't bring myself to find value in any set that does damage for you. The value will be too low and it will be another useless set, or the value will be too high and everyone will use it because there is no better option. This is why we have so many useless sets, and I certainly don't want to advocate creating another.
If there are new ideas for sets to create opportunities rather than simply heal the wearer or damage enemies, ZoS should revamp existing sets rather than adding to the heap, or releasing another broken set to eventually be nerfed and added to the heap.

Brrrofski

katorga wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about wardens @udrath and to be honest I wouldn't worry about these other singular examples either. Blood magic isn't gonna kill you. Not is an argonian popping a potion. Not is an orcs adrenaline rush.

What's gonna kill people is failure to respond to a strong DoT with a strong heal. The counter to this set is burst healing. If you try to ignore it and overly rely on crappy passive healing that is clearly only meant to be supplemental then you will die.

My warden, since that was brought up, has a small heal coming every second if I'm light attacking, a slightly bigger heal every second when I take damage, small heal from activating animal companions, vigor HoT, and burst heal + HoT from Polar Winds.

Most good builds/classes have their own ways to do similar things, and that is exactly why it's so hard to kill people, and why this set is needed. If the oblivion damage is too much then by all means give it a smaller tooltip. But the idea is good.

Bingo. The counter is burst heal, and yes, the amount of passive healing is what sets a survivable class/build apart.

As much as the forums complain about "the problem with healing", cross healing, groups stacking copies of radiating regen, I think ZOS tried to tackle it with a this set. Will it work? The set will punish solo players maybe smallscale, not groups.

Yeh, and do you know what people want?

For healing to not stack. 1 instance of a heal at a time.

Why can't they just bring it in. All these other counters never work.

Crap like this gets used on the smaller group. Because the larger group has more sets to spare.

For solo, I can't run a set to offset someone with strong healing. I need sustain, defence and burst. I have to get all those in my build first.

OBJnoob

Well, while I do kindve agree that proc sets are lame in general, I still think this one serves a purpose.

Time to kill in this game needs to be lower. Period.

Didn't we all agree on that like two weeks ago?

And didn't we also know that this would hurt solo/small scale more than ball groups just... Because?

Why does the introduction of a single set change so many minds? Why is everyone that used to hate Maras now complaining that this set will lead to everyone wearing maras? Too many people are already wearing maras. This is a response to maras-- maras is not a response to this.

People are so worried about what their problem will become they completely forget what the problem IS.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well, while I do kindve agree that proc sets are lame in general, I still think this one serves a purpose.

Time to kill in this game needs to be lower. Period.

Didn't we all agree on that like two weeks ago?

And didn't we also know that this would hurt solo/small scale more than ball groups just... Because?

Why does the introduction of a single set change so many minds? Why is everyone that used to hate Maras now complaining that this set will lead to everyone wearing maras? Too many people are already wearing maras. This is a response to maras-- maras is not a response to this.

People are so worried about what their problem will become they completely forget what the problem IS.

ZoS has refused for years to recognize what the problem is, especially when it comes to PvP. No one has forgotten, but it's been made clear that there is no interest in addressing the problem. Sets like Maras and now Stars are imagined and reintroduced every update only to be nerfed a couple of updates later. As long as people pay for this content, they continue to reinvent this garbage. But...I guess people still love their craft bags, so here we are.

OBJnoob

What is "the" problem, in your words @ForumBully ?

In my words... Performance is the biggest problem, and I guess they are trying to fix it.

A lot of people think ballgroups are the biggest problem but I don't. Other than their effect on performance of course, which really isn't their fault, it seems to me that large groups are what cyrodiil was meant for. And it also seems reasonable to me that groups who take the time to coordinate will be nigh untouchable -v- disorganized enemies.

Class balance is an issue and kinda always has been. I guess we have a right to complain about this-- this is on ZOS-- but personally I don't hate the constant changes it gives me a reason to play different toons from time to time. I just think I would've got bored and left years ago if they didn't put us through this. I find it annoying and necessary at the same time-- to include the introduction and subsequent nerfing of sets.

Chilly-McFreeze

OBJnoob wrote: »

Why does the introduction of a single set change so many minds? Why is everyone that used to hate Maras now complaining that this set will lead to everyone wearing maras? Too many people are already wearing maras. This is a response to maras-- maras is not a response to this.

People are so worried about what their problem will become they completely forget what the problem IS.

Ask yourself when will you be in a more severe disadvantage if your enemy wears snake: when you're wearing mara's to passively heal and purge or if you don't wear mara's?

You cannot simply "stop healing". There's more damage coming in either way you have to offset. You can't shake off other's peoples group heals either. So you have to layer even more healing and purging.

Snake isn't the response to mara's. Nerfing mara's would be the response to the mara-meta. This set simply reinforces everyone to turtle up even more. Especially considering that their oblivion damage set is now old-school proc like independend of their own stats.

BTW I'm happy for you that you survive so well on your healing heavy warden. Not every class has such an advantage. For them it's either Rally + Mara's or SoL. Talking about reinforcing a meta.

OBJnoob

@Chilly-McFreeze I'm not honestly sure what the answer is to that first question. More healing is better than less, for sure, so I guess people wearing maras are better equipped to handle Snake than those without. But at the same time maras is exactly the sort of small constantly recurring heal that will make a set like this eat at you. The purge will help of course, but only when the two cooldowns align. Ultimately the maras wearer will need to have other sources of healing as well.

The real counter to Snake is burst healing, not HoT stacking (which everyone complained about until recently.) And basically every class has a burst heal, with the exception of sorcs-- but shielding will also be a good counter.

But I guess I'm being accused of being biased for playing a Warden? I don't have anything to say to that. If you think the ONLY person here saying time to kill is too low and solo players need to die faster is crutching on warden tankyness then I think you're getting your signals crossed. I'm clearly HAPPY to see the problem you have with wardens be addressed. You're the ones not wanting to die.

Which brings me to my final point... Have you noticed the 2, 3, and 4 piece bonuses on Snake? Kinda garbage. Has anybody thought that the counter might be to just kill the squishy *** first??

No. You all think "well now we HAVE to run maras." And that alone is reason enough for the set to exist. Because instead of availing yourselves of more damage you'd rather just live. That is YOUR choice. "Talking about reinforcing a meta," indeed.

Soraka

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

snip

Oh and btw - what if during keep siege, some one near me casts AOE morph of Vigor or Radiating Regeneration ? I am gonna get killed simply because some one wanted to help me lol. There are so many things wrong with this set... It is causing more troubles than it solves lol.

This is exactly what I'm worried about as a pure healer. The last thing I want to do is DMG my allies.
Geez I messed up the quotes in my post lol.

Thecompton73

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm still of the feeling that this set serves a purpose.

Is there a particular change to it that can be done to salvage it in everyone's eyes? Make it something other than oblivion damage? Make it percentage based on targets health? Cut the value in half?

I already proposed a solution that would allow the set to combat heal stacking while greatly decreasing it's impact on builds with only 1 or 2 sources of HoTs.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

What is "the" problem, in your words @ForumBully ?

In my words... Performance is the biggest problem, and I guess they are trying to fix it.

A lot of people think ballgroups are the biggest problem but I don't. Other than their effect on performance of course, which really isn't their fault, it seems to me that large groups are what cyrodiil was meant for. And it also seems reasonable to me that groups who take the time to coordinate will be nigh untouchable -v- disorganized enemies.

Class balance is an issue and kinda always has been. I guess we have a right to complain about this-- this is on ZOS-- but personally I don't hate the constant changes it gives me a reason to play different toons from time to time. I just think I would've got bored and left years ago if they didn't put us through this. I find it annoying and necessary at the same time-- to include the introduction and subsequent nerfing of sets.

The problem is exploitable mechanics like stacked identical heals. I agree that ball groups are not a problem, but this particular mechanic is used by both organized groups and accidentally by zergs as well. This kind of ambient healing is responsible for a lot of calculations and high TTk in large fights. Another problem is healing scaling exactly the same as damage. This makes a strong DD a strong healer which contributes to the recurring tank metas, especially those that come from proc heals, since procs scale on damage stats. It also makes healers an unnecessary role in larger fights. Dedicated healers still contribute, but building for damage makes everyone a good personal healer.
The biggest problem, IMO, is the ZoS design philosophy which is either a deliberate philosophy of releasing bad ideas for sets and nerfing them the next update, or just not understanding or taking the time to look at the ramifications of set ideas particularly as they perform in PvP. Added to this problem is the cadence where ZoS spends time developing ideas only to have the flaws immediately spotted by players minutes after the patch notes are released, but by then the devs seem content to roll with whatever the idea regardless of the flaws so they can "study" exactly what all players know will be the outcome.

There's lots of problems, and the reason I say they aren't interested in fixing the real problems is because it happens every single update without fail.

Caribou77

Yet another proc set to counter an existing op proc set. What could the incentive be?

OBJnoob

@ForumBully I agree that the heal stacking is super strong but I don't think of it as being an exploitation. It's just the benefit of working together. It really should take another ball groups ulti dump to tackle a ball group. And so this leaves all the rest of us that don't play like that basically screwed... But okay so we're screwed. Contrary to popular belief, fairness screws people sometimes.

I agree that healing should be partially untied from max spell/weapon damage. Always have. Long story short people don't like that idea for the same reason they don't like this set. The change benefits groups big enough to have assigned roles and hurts solo builds.

@Thecompton73 what was your idea again? Missed it.

For the record I understand that this set is probably too strong, needs nerfs but won't get them soon enough, but will be inevitably nerfed. I get it. And if the value of the proc needs to be changed then I want it to be.

But the overall idea isn't bad. Healing gets complained about all the time. The tank meta gets complained about all the time. Introduce a set like this and I'm literally the only one who can say anything good about it? Sorry but it comes off to me like what everybody really wants is for their character to remain super tanky... They just want their enemies to be a little more squish.

Udrath

@OBJnoob in the current game healing is very high and agree with you, Mara balm needs a nerf and I think this set is good. The real thing they need to do is get rid of the free 1k spell damage and weapon damage introduced in update 29, this would make a lot of these tanky builds weak.

propertyOfUndefined

I think a lot of people are overreacting. This set will probably be good for the game.

propertyOfUndefined

Some thoughts on the current state of pvp and how this set might help...

In general, healing abilities have higher numeric values than damage abilities.

Damage can miss (be dodged) and is reduced by resistances. Even the squishiest player will have some armor. In contrast, heals do not miss and are only reduced by Defile, which was nerfed significantly a while ago.

Damage can be blocked at the cost of a paltry amount of stamina (or magicka). This cuts it down further by 50% or more.

Damage is further reduced by buffs like Protection (major and minor), passive skills (e.g. Undeath), and unnamed buffs via sets like Swift, Reactive Armor, Pariah, etc.

Defensive buffs like Protection do have offensive counterparts like Berserk, but they are much more difficult to include in a build. As an example, equipping Revealing Flare grants Major Protection (10% mitigation) passively. Minor Berserk (5% damage increase), on the other hand, can be acquired by landing critical damage from an opponent's flank with the Camouflaged Hunter skill on the active bar. One buff is major, while the other is minor. One is always active, while the other needs to meet proc conditions and has a short duration .

There is a critical resistance stat that reduces critical damage. Some amount of crit resistance is given to all players for free. Players don't even need to invest in the Impenetrable trait like they used to. Critical healing is not reduced at all in this way.

Damage over time (DoTs) can be purged. There is no purge (e.g. some sort of "dispel magic" spell) for healing over time (HoTs).

What all of this seems to suggest to me is that the tankiest player who invests everything into survivability will never be killed by the hardest hitting player in a 1v1. Is this the intention? In my opinion, the offensive player should at least stand a chance in taking the defensive player down -- albeit in an uphill struggle.

I feel like we have a tanky meta because the combat rules heavily favor survivability at the moment. If this set can help remedy that, then I'm all for it.

Lortie

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I think a lot of people are overreacting. This set will probably be good for the game.

Even if healing in its current state is over-tuned, this set is clearly not the way to fix a core fundamental issue.

It will disproportionately hurt the lesser offending classes with less healing or no spammable purges.

It will pigeon-hole certain classes into running Mara's if they weren't already, entrenching a problem we dislike.

It will be one of the best damaging sets, if not the best in PvP for no investment.

People will be encouraged to stack as much healing as they can just to survive this sets pressure, depending on class.

I don't see any situation where this set is healthy for the game.

Brrrofski

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well, while I do kindve agree that proc sets are lame in general, I still think this one serves a purpose.

Time to kill in this game needs to be lower. Period.

Didn't we all agree on that like two weeks ago?

And didn't we also know that this would hurt solo/small scale more than ball groups just... Because?

Why does the introduction of a single set change so many minds? Why is everyone that used to hate Maras now complaining that this set will lead to everyone wearing maras? Too many people are already wearing maras. This is a response to maras-- maras is not a response to this.

People are so worried about what their problem will become they completely forget what the problem IS.

Nobody's denying that there is a problem.

People are just sayin that this is NOT the solution.

Look at every PvP issue that ZOS have tried to fix with a set. When has it ever really fixed the issue? It usually just adds another annoying set into the mix that gets nerfed the next patch.

The community tell them before it goes live, but they never listen.

Some things don't need testing. Something are clearly problematic on paper. This is one of them.

Derra

fred4 wrote: »

But, you know, whatever. ZOS will run with it. I can't believe they're doing high Oblivion damage again. I'm basically out of here anyway.

basically this - we´re going in smaller and smaller circles with the devs actually making things worse than the previous version (which has been nerfed due to it´s OPness)

Maras balm is crimson twilight healing functionality - except being 10x better and purging on top

snake in the stars is sloads - except you can´t even avoid getting the procc on you and it deals more dmg (the notion you could just avoid healing for the procc duration that some ppl in this topic present is basically the same as suggesting to /stuck every time you encounter an opponent)

We´ve seen seen all that before and it´s not been that long.

Hesperax79

Thecompton73 wrote: »

It's a problem for 1 person to survive 10 players but it's ok for a ball group to heal through the damage of 40-50 people chasing them around the inside of an unflagged keep .

Organised group always beat a big unorganised mob. Thats the main idea behind every army in the world throught the all history of Mankind.

If 1v1 are balanced then everything is balanced. Because making an organised group is not an easy task.
The problem is that 1v1 is NOT balanced at the moment.

OBJnoob

Brrrofski wrote: »

Nobody's denying that there is a problem.

People are just sayin that this is NOT the solution.

Right. Well I'm sure the proc is too big, but I feel confident it will get nerfed to a degree. Maybe not before it goes live-- but soon after. I think we all know that so to a certain extent isn't all the vitriol wasted?

In a post-nerf world, and accepting I have no way to speed this process up because we all know how it's going to go, I think the set is great. And I encourage people not to be too picky in their solutions.

Some of us wanted defile buffed. Some of us wanted a cap on HoT stacks. Some of us wanted to decouple healing from max damage. This isn't any of that-- but it IS "a solution." I'm just happy the problem is being addressed in some small way and I'm willing to deal with a month or two of whatever as it gets ironed out because THAT BS will be more enjoyable to me than the same BS. I like my BS to vary.

jaws343

OBJnoob wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Nobody's denying that there is a problem.

People are just sayin that this is NOT the solution.

Right. Well I'm sure the proc is too big, but I feel confident it will get nerfed to a degree. Maybe not before it goes live-- but soon after. I think we all know that so to a certain extent isn't all the vitriol wasted?

In a post-nerf world, and accepting I have no way to speed this process up because we all know how it's going to go, I think the set is great. And I encourage people not to be too picky in their solutions.

Some of us wanted defile buffed. Some of us wanted a cap on HoT stacks. Some of us wanted to decouple healing from max damage. This isn't any of that-- but it IS "a solution." I'm just happy the problem is being addressed in some small way and I'm willing to deal with a month or two of whatever as it gets ironed out because THAT BS will be more enjoyable to me than the same BS. I like my BS to vary.

The problem with this as a solution to heal stacking issue is it overwhelmingly impacts people who don't/can't heal stack.

Great, those ball groups or small mans who are cross healing have just one more dot they have to purge. This set will have almost no effect on them. It will be the solo or 2 man groups or BG players, who have almost zero cross healing and minimal self dots on their bars who will suffer the most from this set. It's going to be ridiculous in BGs, where the lack of CP already makes survival difficult.

Edited to add an example. I run 1 heal on my sorc setup, Radiating. That 1 active heal will basically be entirely negated by this set. Which means, I'd have to find a bar spot to put another active heal, or costly purge, to counter this one set. That's not even accounting for the passive heals that come when casting/landing certain abilities. Small heals that can lead to death with this proc set.

That also isn't account for ally healing. You could do everything right with this proc on you, avoid healing, play defensive, etc. And then get hit with an ally's radiating, or healing springs, or even the heal from a templar's purge or someone's restro heavy attack heal, and you end up dead. There are so many sources of passive healing, that as heals are extremely small, but when they now have a chance to proc a damage tic against you that is larger than the heal, they are now incredibly problematic. And you can do little to counter it, without just removing a ton of sill points from passives and changing out any skills that may proc a heal on you. Or, constantly purge as the enemy 4 man team (in a BG for example) just rotates proccing the set on you every time you purge.

TechMaybeHic

I really hate all these sets they feel they have to come up with. Ideas run thin and we get stuff that is completely gameplay ruining, like Rush of Agony and now this.

With this one, I don't know what you are supposed to do. Wait it out for the cooldown? Well all it takes is another enemy to put it on you.