Anybody tested Snake in the Stars set on PTS?

Chilly-McFreeze

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze I'm not honestly sure what the answer is to that first question. More healing is better than less, for sure, so I guess people wearing maras are better equipped to handle Snake than those without. But at the same time maras is exactly the sort of small constantly recurring heal that will make a set like this eat at you. The purge will help of course, but only when the two cooldowns align. Ultimately the maras wearer will need to have other sources of healing as well.

The real counter to Snake is burst healing, not HoT stacking (which everyone complained about until recently.) And basically every class has a burst heal, with the exception of sorcs-- but shielding will also be a good counter.

But I guess I'm being accused of being biased for playing a Warden? I don't have anything to say to that. If you think the ONLY person here saying time to kill is too low and solo players need to die faster is crutching on warden tankyness then I think you're getting your signals crossed. I'm clearly HAPPY to see the problem you have with wardens be addressed. You're the ones not wanting to die.

Which brings me to my final point... Have you noticed the 2, 3, and 4 piece bonuses on Snake? Kinda garbage. Has anybody thought that the counter might be to just kill the squishy *** first??

No. You all think "well now we HAVE to run maras." And that alone is reason enough for the set to exist. Because instead of availing yourselves of more damage you'd rather just live. That is YOUR choice. "Talking about reinforcing a meta," indeed.

See, not every class has a burst heal nor does every class has the same healing potential alltogether. So it effects those classes, even those builds, who don't overheal to be unkillable more than the main culprits. This doesn't even consider coordinated cross healing, which is a bigger issue, at all at this point.
BTW your burst heal will get reduced by 2.85k as well with this set.

Also, you're reading to much into the warden comment. It was just to showcase that some classes have more healing power / better defense than others.

What's wrong with the 4 piece bonus? It's weapon/ spell damage. Regen and max mag aren't optimal, yes, but it doesn't make or break "snake builds", particularly since oblivion dmg doesn't even scale with your stats.

And again, two points you seem to avoid:

1) Mara's is an issue. But if your solution is to force people into another set to counter a set, we don't solve anything at all. No matter from which perspective you look at it.
Heal stacking is also an issue. But Snake doesn't even touch the root of it at all.

2) You can't stop healing/ proccing snakes. Neither will your opponent sit idle after the proc, nor can you control your mates. Not even talking about healing passives.

If you want this set to specifically counter healing, then rather change it to healing absorption (flat or %), make it remove identical heal stacks beyond the latest or proc a condition on you so you can only be healed by yourself.

Necrotech_Master

ForumBully wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well, while I do kindve agree that proc sets are lame in general, I still think this one serves a purpose.

Time to kill in this game needs to be lower. Period.

Didn't we all agree on that like two weeks ago?

And didn't we also know that this would hurt solo/small scale more than ball groups just... Because?

Why does the introduction of a single set change so many minds? Why is everyone that used to hate Maras now complaining that this set will lead to everyone wearing maras? Too many people are already wearing maras. This is a response to maras-- maras is not a response to this.

People are so worried about what their problem will become they completely forget what the problem IS.

ZoS has refused for years to recognize what the problem is, especially when it comes to PvP. No one has forgotten, but it's been made clear that there is no interest in addressing the problem. Sets like Maras and now Stars are imagined and reintroduced every update only to be nerfed a couple of updates later. As long as people pay for this content, they continue to reinvent this garbage. But...I guess people still love their craft bags, so here we are.

this set is rewards of the worthy, which is available free as part of the base game, nobody is paying for this set lol

i personally am surprised that this set isnt like other oblivion dmg sets and doing %health dmg, but thats probably what its going to get changed to post release, or even before release

ForumBully

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well, while I do kindve agree that proc sets are lame in general, I still think this one serves a purpose.

Time to kill in this game needs to be lower. Period.

Didn't we all agree on that like two weeks ago?

And didn't we also know that this would hurt solo/small scale more than ball groups just... Because?

Why does the introduction of a single set change so many minds? Why is everyone that used to hate Maras now complaining that this set will lead to everyone wearing maras? Too many people are already wearing maras. This is a response to maras-- maras is not a response to this.

People are so worried about what their problem will become they completely forget what the problem IS.

ZoS has refused for years to recognize what the problem is, especially when it comes to PvP. No one has forgotten, but it's been made clear that there is no interest in addressing the problem. Sets like Maras and now Stars are imagined and reintroduced every update only to be nerfed a couple of updates later. As long as people pay for this content, they continue to reinvent this garbage. But...I guess people still love their craft bags, so here we are.

this set is rewards of the worthy, which is available free as part of the base game, nobody is paying for this set lol

i personally am surprised that this set isnt like other oblivion dmg sets and doing %health dmg, but thats probably what its going to get changed to post release, or even before release

I was talking about paying for ESO plus...as long as subs aren't in rapid decline, the decisions are validated

Sergykid

that idea said earlier is the best, to make it deal less dmg like 500-700 when u get healed. Big group or tank with tons of heal, no change. Others will just get damaged by a regular decent dot set.

or add negate healing effect so u don't lose health when u heal by smaller amount than the damaging value

TechMaybeHic

I'd like to see:

(5 items) Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 6 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they get a stack of venom for .5 seconds. Being healed adds a stack and refreshes existing. If the enemy get 3 stacks take 2848 Daedric Damage. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time.

jaws343

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'd like to see:

(5 items) Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 6 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they get a stack of venom for .5 seconds. Being healed adds a stack and refreshes existing. If the enemy get 3 stacks take 2848 Daedric Damage. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time.

I think there is a fairly easy adjustment to this that would work:

Remove the per second cap. And change it from a flat damage to 10% of the healing amount done. Cap it at 3% of the players health.

(5 items) Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 6 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 10% of the healed amount as Daedric Damage, up to 3% of their max health. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time.

So, a player at say 30K health will only take 900 damage max per tick of healing. It basically becomes a reverse Pale Order, but with the health cap in place, those instances of healing won't be too oppressive for players with less overlapping heals. A player just running vigor or just running radiating, aren't going to feel the set that much. And conversely, removing the per second cap will all multiple ticks of the 900 damage to go off per second of being healing for players stacking a lot of heals.

And, having the 10% of the healing in place allows a cap against the heal amount for larger heals and allows lesser heals, like the incidental ones from some skills, to be less impacted. A Vigor tick of 4,000 is going to deal the full 10% or 400 damage to you, a burst heal of 10K is going to deal 900 damage to you due to the 3% health cap.

NordSwordnBoard

What if it only procced on incoming heals from other players, instead of your own? Is that too anti group/healer in general?

Is this a reaction to the 2-3 tower trolls out healing larger groups attacking them? It makes up for the larger groups lack of coordinating and focusing a target. DoT up the target, then when they LoS away to heal, your proc set finishes them for you.

So, when do we get the Oblivion damage monster set? Still in the works? I'm not asking, I'm expecting lol. We've tried to address problems with Oblivion damage before...

Soraka

I think heal absorption mentioned above makes more sense or to only work on self heals. This is because the way ESO healing is set up you generally cannot target heals on others. It goes where it wants, especially HOTs. That takes a lot of "skill"/choice/counter away if it's on any incoming heal to do damage. Healing is almost random.
And I thought maybe I could work on some other sort of support build, but a lot of shields have already been nerfed and also come with heals..
ETA: or just get rid of heal stacking of same skills

Thecompton73

@OBJnoob
My fix would be to reduce the cool down on the damage to 0.25 seconds while at the same time lowering the amount from 2800 to around 700-900 per tick. This would allow the set to rightfully punish stacking 4-5 healing effects per second, thus doing about the same damage per second as at current levels or perhaps a bit more, while greatly reducing it's effectiveness against builds only running 1 or 2 sources of healing over time.

OBJnoob

@Thecompton73
I think that's a great idea.

ZOS_Kevin

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

Dr_Con

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

why not make the set negate & remove all sticky heals over time for the duration? This way, it doesn't punish players for reactively healing, but players will have to rely more on direct heals instead of HOTs.

You could also make it affect more targets if they have 2 or more HOTs active. Since shield stacking used to be an issue and prevents you from buffing damage shields on the balancing side of things, you can also make it negate damage shields when 2 or more are stacked.

acastanza_ESO

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

I think the major areas of concern are around how severely it negates the ability of solo players to heal while it does virtually nothing to players stacking many, many, heals.
We've talked ad-nauseum about how heal stacking is a major issue that is exploited by "ballgroups" to become essentially immortal. One way this set could be more impactful is by reexamining the cooldown, and looking at scaling the damage with the number of HOT effects.

One potential idea would be to make it trigger off of overheals. For example; no damage up front, but, if you're overhealed while under the effect of Star Venom all active HOT effects are removed and you take some amount of Oblivion damage that scales (up to a reasonably punishing max health%) based on the number of HOTs that were removed.
I think something like this would do a more effective job of targeting the extreme-heal-stacking niche that the set desirable for.

TechMaybeHic

A positive effect purge would be nice not buff removal as that idea was also awful. But a HOT cleanser or something

Tommy_The_Gun

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

I think this set proc condition should be limited to "player casted abilities" only. Maybe even just to HoT abilities. Right now it procs of literally everything which is kinda ridiculous

Soraka

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

Appreciate it!

ForumBully

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

Anything to avoid actually looking at high incoming healing, huh?

ForumBully

Maybe lots of Radiating Regens shouldn't stack....might want to take a gander in that direction rather than trying conjure a set to deal with it

TechMaybeHic

ForumBully wrote: »

Maybe lots of Radiating Regens shouldn't stack....might want to take a gander in that direction rather than trying conjure a set to deal with it

A set to counter the last set that heals every second (after a nerf) and purged EVERYTHING with a burst heal; introduced after just trying to nerf HOTs

Maybe the new set can just be "cancels the effect of Maras Balm when applying a negative effect"

WeylandLabs

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

Re-evaluating = completely destroying this sets damage and utility for tanky players or to counter mara's builds, great job and nerfing a fun set into oblivion again.

I don't even know how or what is going nerfed on it but the track record shows it will be completely useless for another pvp set.

There is so much bias towards playstyles in classes now that it's not even fun anymore. With nerfing playstyles at an all-time high, the arc class seem won't even be different to play giving that everyone has streak with mist form ?

Everything is the same now and more mathematical than creative, when will you reward fun creative playstyles again ? At least have some counters in the game so everyone isn't wearing the same 2 sets in pvp Rally and Mara's ?

TechMaybeHic

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

Re-evaluating = completely destroying this sets damage and utility for tanky players or to counter mara's builds, great job and nerfing a fun set into oblivion again.

I don't even know how or what is going nerfed on it but the track record shows it will be completely useless for another pvp set.

There is so much bias towards playstyles in classes now that it's not even fun anymore. With nerfing playstyles at an all-time high, the arc class seem won't even be different to play giving that everyone has streak with mist form ?

Everything is the same now and more mathematical than creative, when will you reward fun creative playstyles again ? At least have some counters in the game so everyone isn't wearing the same 2 sets in pvp Rally and Mara's ?

I don't disagree about those last 2 sets being widely used to obnoxious level; but I am a bit shocked by being upset they are taking a look at what would be a very oppressive set, that would equally impact people not using Maras, and the groups with the "high incoming healing" would just purge it away and otherwise outlast it while it's still in testing. That's what testing should be about.

Tommy_The_Gun

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

One potential idea would be to make it trigger off of overheals. For example; no damage up front, but, if you're overhealed while under the effect of Star Venom all active HOT effects are removed and you take some amount of Oblivion damage that scales (up to a reasonably punishing max health%) based on the number of HOTs that were removed.
I think something like this would do a more effective job of targeting the extreme-heal-stacking niche that the set desirable for.

This is also good idea and definitely better than what this set does now. There should definitely be more restrictions - for example imho it should not proc of passives, enchantments and CP and sets but rather only from player casted abilities & synergies. The other issue I can see is that it will still affect "random" healers. They will be trying to help one player that is dying, but unwittingly they will be killing some else.

But imho the biggest issue is re-applying Snake in Stars (for free via Weakness to Elements) - effectively interrupting every heal & preventing you from using any heal at all. Sounds very toxic.

In general I think it is a shame that ZOS is trying to solve stacking healing abilities by adding a set. It seems like a lazy duct tape solution that won't solve anything & instead introduce more problems.

Things like this should be balanced out by you know... battle spirit. They have this universal
buff/de-buff system made to balance out PvP. So if grouped players are the primary cause of the issue in PvP, then why not add some kind of condition to battle spirit ? So stuff could get weaker the more players are in the group or something. Definitely better solution than introducing a broken set to heal broken gameplay mechanics.

Soraka

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

One potential idea would be to make it trigger off of overheals. For example; no damage up front, but, if you're overhealed while under the effect of Star Venom all active HOT effects are removed and you take some amount of Oblivion damage that scales (up to a reasonably punishing max health%) based on the number of HOTs that were removed.
I think something like this would do a more effective job of targeting the extreme-heal-stacking niche that the set desirable for.

This is also good idea and definitely better than what this set does now. There should definitely be more restrictions - for example imho it should not proc of passives, enchantments and CP and sets but rather only from player casted abilities & synergies. The other issue I can see is that it will still affect "random" healers. They will be trying to help one player that is dying, but unwittingly they will be killing some else.

But imho the biggest issue is re-applying Snake in Stars (for free via Weakness to Elements) - effectively interrupting every heal & preventing you from using any heal at all. Sounds very toxic.

In general I think it is a shame that ZOS is trying to solve stacking healing abilities by adding a set. It seems like a lazy duct tape solution that won't solve anything & instead introduce more problems.

Things like this should be balanced out by you know... battle spirit. They have this universal
buff/de-buff system made to balance out PvP. So if grouped players are the primary cause of the issue in PvP, then why not add some kind of condition to battle spirit ? So stuff could get weaker the more players are in the group or something. Definitely better solution than introducing a broken set to heal broken gameplay mechanics.

I agree. Plus with the armory now, it makes it even more reasonable to have different balancing or rule sets for PvP and PvE. You don't have to cripple yourself in one or the other by committing to one build. I think there have been a lot of good ideas proposed in this thread that could possibly still combat overhealing without making it a gamble on DMG to allies.

Necrotech_Master

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

One potential idea would be to make it trigger off of overheals. For example; no damage up front, but, if you're overhealed while under the effect of Star Venom all active HOT effects are removed and you take some amount of Oblivion damage that scales (up to a reasonably punishing max health%) based on the number of HOTs that were removed.
I think something like this would do a more effective job of targeting the extreme-heal-stacking niche that the set desirable for.

This is also good idea and definitely better than what this set does now. There should definitely be more restrictions - for example imho it should not proc of passives, enchantments and CP and sets but rather only from player casted abilities & synergies. The other issue I can see is that it will still affect "random" healers. They will be trying to help one player that is dying, but unwittingly they will be killing some else.

But imho the biggest issue is re-applying Snake in Stars (for free via Weakness to Elements) - effectively interrupting every heal & preventing you from using any heal at all. Sounds very toxic.

In general I think it is a shame that ZOS is trying to solve stacking healing abilities by adding a set. It seems like a lazy duct tape solution that won't solve anything & instead introduce more problems.

Things like this should be balanced out by you know... battle spirit. They have this universal
buff/de-buff system made to balance out PvP. So if grouped players are the primary cause of the issue in PvP, then why not add some kind of condition to battle spirit ? So stuff could get weaker the more players are in the group or something. Definitely better solution than introducing a broken set to heal broken gameplay mechanics.

theres a lot of things that could be very toxic/trolly with this

both versions of snipe for example apply a minor debuff (lethal arrow is minor defile (exactly what you need while someone is taking oblivion dmg while healing is reducing the value of their heal lol), the other one is minor breach)

those snipe gankers running like scavenging demise combined with this set will make it very hard to recover from if your taking dmg from your own heals for 6 seconds

NordSwordnBoard

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The other issue I can see is that it will still affect "random" healers. They will be trying to help one player that is dying, but unwittingly they will be killing some else.

I wonder if there is a silver lining to that - if auto target heals become dangerous, kind of like how purging at will with Plaguebreak did - it could change the PvP healing META a bit towards targeted heals and more single target burst heals. I think it would eventually reduce abundant cross healing overall. I say that thinking healers are up to the challenge which should also increase their value to the group. It would discourage going in to Cyro spamming Regen, provided people understood how it works just like they had a learning curve with Plaguebreak.

Does anybody know how this proc works with Blastbones?

React

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

I'd be interested in hearing the developer comment on what this set was designed to do.

If it was designed as an answer to the large amount of feedback regarding PVP healing in general being too high, I feel like it misses the mark. It will be the strongest non-ultimate dot in PVP at it's current value. As an un-mitigatable dot, it is very punishing to one person at a time who is using/receiving a heal over time. If you're a solo player, or a member of a small group trying to fight a larger group, this set will be EXTREMELY punishing to you, completely negating 1-2 of your precious few heal over times.

However in scenarios where there are many people stacking heals, it does comparatively very little. These are some of the most problematic scenarios currently.

I do not think that adding sets to counter a healing imbalance is a good idea. You are asking too much of players to equip a 5pc set to deal with poor balance, and it is always going to impact solo/individual players exponentially more than it impacts groups.

If you're going to push through another oblivion damage dot proc set, when historically we KNOW that these are a bad idea, I'd recommend making it function like this.

Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds, per target. When an enemy heals themselves while under the effects of star venom, they take 1,000 oblivion damage (- 1800 from current value). When an enemy is healed by a heal over time ability from another player, they take 2,000 oblivion damage. When an enemy is healed by a direct heal from another player, they take 1,000 oblivion damage. Each of these three effects can occur once per second.

This now impacts groups far more than individual players, and specifically targets the "HOT stacking" mechanic that organized groups are exploiting currently.

I also wrote a very detailed post about the healing & survivability issues in PVP currently, which can be found at the link below. I think some of the suggestions in here would go a lot further to properly addressing the balance issues in PVP than adding another broken proc set will.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621381/pvp-balance-in-u37-in-depth-balance-suggestions/p1

ForumBully

React wrote: »

I do not think that adding sets to counter a healing imbalance is a good idea.

This right here cuts to the heart of so many problems.

ForumBully

Purge spamming is a problem? Let's add a set.
Large groups not dying? Add a set.
Not enough good DoT pressure? Let's add sets.
Too many DoTs? Let's add a set to purge them.
Let's add sets for every reason possible to avoid looking at class balance problems and problematic game mechanics. And if the set we add causes a problem, we'll add a set for that next time.

React

ForumBully wrote: »

Purge spamming is a problem? Let's add a set.
Large groups not dying? Add a set.
Not enough good DoT pressure? Let's add sets.
Too many DoTs? Let's add a set to purge them.
Let's add sets for every reason possible to avoid looking at class balance problems and problematic game mechanics. And if the set we add causes a problem, we'll add a set for that next time.

It really seems like this was designed to be a direct counter to mara's, which is just terrible game design if that is the case. I would love to hear the explanation for this one.

OBJnoob

ForumBully wrote: »

Purge spamming is a problem? Let's add a set.
Large groups not dying? Add a set.
Not enough good DoT pressure? Let's add sets.
Too many DoTs? Let's add a set to purge them.
Let's add sets for every reason possible to avoid looking at class balance problems and problematic game mechanics. And if the set we add causes a problem, we'll add a set for that next time.

Seems to me like the VERY most problematic sets are ones designed to tackle ballgroups. Not just sets but CP stars and abilities too. Proxy det, vicious death, occult overload, plaguebreak, dark convergence, blah blah blah.

I'm honestly scared you folks just talked the devs into turning Snake into one of them. We'll see what they come up with I guess. I would've preferred they just nerfed the damage but left the mechanic the way it is.

If this turns into some AoE sticky heal absorption or whatever... I mean, I dunno, we'll see. I think I like it single target-- really don't want yet another mine tossed into the battlefield. Player -v- Red Circles.