Anybody tested Snake in the Stars set on PTS?

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Purge spamming is a problem? Let's add a set.
Large groups not dying? Add a set.
Not enough good DoT pressure? Let's add sets.
Too many DoTs? Let's add a set to purge them.
Let's add sets for every reason possible to avoid looking at class balance problems and problematic game mechanics. And if the set we add causes a problem, we'll add a set for that next time.

Seems to me like the VERY most problematic sets are ones designed to tackle ballgroups. Not just sets but CP stars and abilities too. Proxy det, vicious death, occult overload, plaguebreak, dark convergence, blah blah blah.

I'm honestly scared you folks just talked the devs into turning Snake into one of them. We'll see what they come up with I guess. I would've preferred they just nerfed the damage but left the mechanic the way it is.

If this turns into some AoE sticky heal absorption or whatever... I mean, I dunno, we'll see. I think I like it single target-- really don't want yet another mine tossed into the battlefield. Player -v- Red Circles.

Neither do I. Ideally they'd just stop making sets that do your damage and healing for you, but it seems like whoever comes up with them is entrenched and can't be fired.
It also doesn't seem likely that they're going to address the fact that everyone in the group can cast regeneration for awhile and be immortal.
The cycle will continue of Bad Idea Set that's either made useless immediately or made useless after a few patches to make way for the next Bad Idea Set. Wash, rinse, repeat.

TechMaybeHic

I was just thinking; they nerfed Rally years ago to no longer have a HOT and then a burst heal after 20 seconds to only be a burst heal. So then a couple updates ago, they give us a set that does everything Rally did AND a purge far more powerful than Extended Ritual; passively and for free. So now, they want to add a set that does half the amount of Oblivion damage Occult Overload does when someone dies with a status effect, but effectively every second you are healed to counter it.

Seems all this would do is kind of require you to run the first set just to try to absorb the new set they sent to try to counter the first set.

axi

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to provide an update here. The dev team is looking into re-evaluating this set to do a better job at countering high incoming healing for shorter windows of time. They'll be investigate the duration, cooldown, and damage. If you have any additional feedback regarding these areas, let us know and we'll pass on the feedback.

If You want to counter high incoming healing than battle spirit exists for that. No need to create specific sets.

GrimmLegion

I’ve read a lot of good comments and bad ones for what should be done to this set. I agree that we need to know the purpose of this set to make a truly informed decision on the adjustments need to make this set really stand on its own feet. If I was making this set to counter super high healing groups can push, then add a range that if effected player is X meters near group members it adds to the dot damage X% on top of base damage. This would in a way punish ball groups by forcing them away from each other or take more damage. On that same note like pale order drop the damage it does the more people you have in your group or even the more people in that X meter range from you that way ball groups don’t abuse the set at the same time. Another thing is make it either unable to be purged, boost damage when purged, apply a healing absorbent effect when purged, or reapply. By capping this effect to one instance and one proc per X time makes it a joke. If it was purged the second it procs and you have to wait all that time to proc it again why’s the point outside of a NB that hides and waits. Purge is literally ran in every ball group and plague break did make a dent in that but with so many hots running all you had to do is get out of range to purge and it was more of a tickle. I’m just spitballing here and laying down ideas that I haven’t really seen too much of. The counter to oblivion damage in the past has always been with healing because it’s been a way to bypass everything else but now it’s a dot so that means it can be purged unless that changes ultimately killing the set before it even has an effect. Just my 2 cents in an ocean of pocket change.

ForumBully

"This set was designed to counter pesky heal stacking"

I wish a dev would do a write-up explaining why they don't just address heal stacking directly.

Necrotech_Master

todays pts patch notes actually addressed this set somewhat decently

Snake in the Stars:

• This set now lasts 4 seconds, down from 6.
• The damage event can now occur once every 100ms, down from once every second.
• Reduced the damage per hit to 1170, down from 2848.
• This set now has an additional cooldown per target of 12 seconds, in addition to its 12 second trigger cooldown, in order to prevent subsequential applications.
• This set now also grants an additional line of Magicka Recovery on the 5-piece bonus.

TechMaybeHic

Somehow these sets tend to screw templar Jabs every time.

Maras, while adjusted lower even yet; still impacts sweeps (and the purge further wrecks backlash)

Now; if there is anyone left running the magicka version of jabs; they likely will hurt themselves more than their target if they get inflicted with sparkle snake. And I know; at least there's a personal cool down now, but why is it even harder yet again for templar?

Feels this stuff is not thought through.

ForumBully

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Feels this stuff is not thought through.

Sums up the last 5 years

TechMaybeHic

ForumBully wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Feels this stuff is not thought through.

Sums up the last 5 years

They need more eyes and variety. At first glance, I thought "hey, that might be a good idea" but then started thinking about templars that I've mained mostly.

Just need views from different angles

bachpain

Is there a problem with HOTS stacking and making ball groups unkillable? YES. Is introducing a set that puts an unmitigatable dot on ANYONE who uses a HOT the answer? NO.

This is absolutely the wrong way to address the elephant in the room of the cross healing/damage problem of ball groups in PVP. Make adjustments to battle spirit and cross healing to limit the amount of DOTS and HOTS that will stack or something that specifically addresses the problem. Don't throw a set out there that will make everyone a ticking timebomb.

Thecompton73

I am actually very impressed with the changes. The only thing more I could have asked them to do would have been to ramp the damage up the more times it hits per second. This iteration will still do more damage than healing taken when a solo player is using 2 small hots and while doing 11K damage per second for 4 seconds against heal stacking ball groups with a possible 25%-33% uptime (depending on whether the cooldown starts on application or expiration?) does sound promising I'm not sure a fully optimized group still won't get more healing than damage taken when they have so many buffs on them.

Tommy_The_Gun

Thecompton73 wrote: »

I am actually very impressed with the changes. The only thing more I could have asked them to do would have been to ramp the damage up the more times it hits per second. This iteration will still do more damage than healing taken when a solo player is using 2 small hots and while doing 11K damage per second for 4 seconds against heal stacking ball groups with a possible 25% uptime does sound promising I'm not sure a fully optimized group still won't get more healing than damage taken when they have so many buffs on them.

Ball groups will purge it, while solos will die not knowing what killed them. #Balanced

I guess it is time to play no CP or other PvP game lol.

Thecompton73

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

I am actually very impressed with the changes. The only thing more I could have asked them to do would have been to ramp the damage up the more times it hits per second. This iteration will still do more damage than healing taken when a solo player is using 2 small hots and while doing 11K damage per second for 4 seconds against heal stacking ball groups with a possible 25% uptime does sound promising I'm not sure a fully optimized group still won't get more healing than damage taken when they have so many buffs on them.

Ball groups will purge it, while solos will die not knowing what killed them. #Balanced

I guess it is time to play no CP or other PvP game lol.

Plaugebreak is still a thing though so purging every time a member in the middle of the group gets affected will be a dangerous trade off. I'm more expecting to see them using sets that give group shields along with having people rotating Replenishing Barrier and Bone shields. Still gotta give the Devs praise for going as extreme as 100ms on the damage CD since ballgroups are the only one's running around with enough HOTS on them to take the full damage.

Mayrael

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

I am actually very impressed with the changes. The only thing more I could have asked them to do would have been to ramp the damage up the more times it hits per second. This iteration will still do more damage than healing taken when a solo player is using 2 small hots and while doing 11K damage per second for 4 seconds against heal stacking ball groups with a possible 25% uptime does sound promising I'm not sure a fully optimized group still won't get more healing than damage taken when they have so many buffs on them.

Ball groups will purge it, while solos will die not knowing what killed them. #Balanced

I guess it is time to play no CP or other PvP game lol.

I'm repeating this for years. Purge in PvP needs to work like templars ritual - by activating synergy. Do it ZOS, at least try it.

Panderbander

I like the direction this is going with a shorter duration, more procs per second, and a per-target cooldown, but I feel like for this set to really have the intended effect it shouldn't have a global 12 second cooldown in addition to the per-target cooldown.

What would you all think about having it similar to Plaguebreak where it applies to a single target per attack but the cooldown is purely target-based?

I personally feel like this would give it significantly more utility against ball groups or other tightly packed HOT stacking groups without making it oppressive against solo players.

Thecompton73

Panderbander wrote: »

I like the direction this is going with a shorter duration, more procs per second, and a per-target cooldown, but I feel like for this set to really have the intended effect it shouldn't have a global 12 second cooldown in addition to the per-target cooldown.

What would you all think about having it similar to Plaguebreak where it applies to a single target per attack but the cooldown is purely target-based?

I personally feel like this would give it significantly more utility against ball groups or other tightly packed HOT stacking groups without making it oppressive against solo players.

I certainly would be in favor of at least reducing the global cooldown since it will take as much uptime on as many members of a ballgroup as possible to really be effective and the 12 seconds might make it too niche to get enough players wearing it to achieve that.

Panderbander

Thecompton73 wrote: »

I certainly would be in favor of at least reducing the global cooldown since it will take as much uptime on as many members of a ballgroup as possible to really be effective and the 12 seconds might make it too niche to get enough players wearing it to achieve that.

Perhaps a 4 second global cooldown then, so you can always have one active at a time but never twice on the same player. That could be effective as well.

Necrotech_Master

Panderbander wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

I certainly would be in favor of at least reducing the global cooldown since it will take as much uptime on as many members of a ballgroup as possible to really be effective and the 12 seconds might make it too niche to get enough players wearing it to achieve that.

Perhaps a 4 second global cooldown then, so you can always have one active at a time but never twice on the same player. That could be effective as well.

this might work, and because of the per target cooldown it wouldnt be oppressive in a 1v1 scenario either

TechMaybeHic

No, they need to stop beating around the bush about HOT stacking and deal with it directly rather than have some new set that's going to cause abilities that heal with damage become more dangerous to the user than their enemy.

OBJnoob

It seems to me like they try to solve the problems with sets sometimes because they don't want to nerf teamwork in an MMO.

People refer to heal-stacking as being an exploit. What a strange outlook. But they'd be happy with the game itself forcing a handicap. So... Players playing good is toxic... But the game itself punishing people for grouping is healthy. Hmm. Sounds like the definition of unfair to me.

Panderbander

So after testing this set on the PTS I can say that the damage is completely inconsequential now and the debuff doesn't last anywhere near long enough.

fred4

OBJnoob wrote: »

It seems to me like they try to solve the problems with sets sometimes because they don't want to nerf teamwork in an MMO.

That, and still coming up with a meaningful 500 and first set in the game, which may otherwise be hard to do. It's an ever expanding cycle of counters and counter-counters.

Thecompton73

Panderbander wrote: »

So after testing this set on the PTS I can say that the damage is completely inconsequential now and the debuff doesn't last anywhere near long enough.

Gonna have to give us a bit more info about your testing methods and conditions before we can put any stock in your conclusions.

Panderbander

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Gonna have to give us a bit more info about your testing methods and conditions before we can put any stock in your conclusions.

Tested against a single target in Cyrodiil stacking multiple hots on top of each other to maximize the number of procs of the Snake in the Stars set and to simulate HOT stacking as well as I could. The hots utilized were the following: Extended Ritual, Restoring Focus, Rapid Regeneration, Living Dark, Resolving Vigor, Ring of Preservation, the Grace of Gloom set, and the Almalexia's Mercy set. Earthgore was also equipped for testing but was never able to get the target low enough to proc it. This is obviously not the same extent that might be seen with a ball group but it is a significant number of individual healing events.

Overall, the healing easily outpaced the damage of the Snake in the Stars set, to the point that with just the set procced the target's health basically did not move. The set did proc quite a lot and it did provide a *very* small burst window but the duration was not long enough nor the damage high enough to truly take advantage of that window. If the intent of this set is to make it easier to break up heal stacking groups then the duration and damage miss the mark as it is currently iterated. It is my belief based on the testing I did that heal stacking will still be an incredibly robust strategy against this set. It's also worth noting that simultaneous or near simultaneous healing events will only proc the set once with the 100ms cooldown.

Interestingly, I did find that anything that provides healing absorption (the Soldier of Anguish set and the Psijic Time Stop ability) completely prevents Snake in the Stars from proccing, as it will only proc if the target's health actually increases.

EDIT: I should add that minor debuffs provided by status effects do not proc this set despite the set stating that it will proc off major or minor debuffs, meaning the Diseased, Chilled, Hemorrhaging, Concussed, and Sundered status effects will not proc Star Venom on your target despite providing minor defile, maim, mangle, vulnerability, and breach, respectively.

Necrotech_Master

Panderbander wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Gonna have to give us a bit more info about your testing methods and conditions before we can put any stock in your conclusions.

Tested against a single target in Cyrodiil stacking multiple hots on top of each other to maximize the number of procs of the Snake in the Stars set and to simulate HOT stacking as well as I could. The hots utilized were the following: Extended Ritual, Restoring Focus, Rapid Regeneration, Living Dark, Resolving Vigor, Ring of Preservation, the Grace of Gloom set, and the Almalexia's Mercy set. Earthgore was also equipped for testing but was never able to get the target low enough to proc it. This is obviously not the same extent that might be seen with a ball group but it is a significant number of individual healing events.

Overall, the healing easily outpaced the damage of the Snake in the Stars set, to the point that with just the set procced the target's health basically did not move. The set did proc quite a lot and it did provide a *very* small burst window but the duration was not long enough nor the damage high enough to truly take advantage of that window. If the intent of this set is to make it easier to break up heal stacking groups then the duration and damage miss the mark as it is currently iterated. It is my belief based on the testing I did that heal stacking will still be an incredibly robust strategy against this set. It's also worth noting that simultaneous or near simultaneous healing events will only proc the set once with the 100ms cooldown.

Interestingly, I did find that anything that provides healing absorption (the Soldier of Anguish set and the Psijic Time Stop ability) completely prevents Snake in the Stars from proccing, as it will only proc if the target's health actually increases.

EDIT: I should add that minor debuffs provided by status effects do not proc this set despite the set stating that it will proc off major or minor debuffs, meaning the Diseased, Chilled, Hemorrhaging, Concussed, and Sundered status effects will not proc Star Venom on your target despite providing minor defile, maim, mangle, vulnerability, and breach, respectively.

i could see that, it only combats heal stacking to an extent (you could have 100 hots on you but if they all ticked at the same time, it would limit the procs of this set even with the 0.1 sec cooldown)

that is also interesting to see how it interacts with healing absorption (which honestly the sets that apply this are far too weak), and also makes sense that a 4 second window might be too short (it might be ok if they uncapped how fast the oblivion dmg could apply, which in a ball group scenario could end up deleting someone if it was uncapped though)

Panderbander

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

(it might be ok if they uncapped how fast the oblivion dmg could apply, which in a ball group scenario could end up deleting someone if it was uncapped though)

I'm not sure that it would. As it is right now it basically plays as an absorption with some incidental damage. The set on it's own won't kill anyone, it just provides a very small window to maybe kill someone with most of the heals being nullified due to the fact that it specifically only goes off on heals. The only way I could see it nuking someone is if the heals all ticked for something like 200-300 or less, and that was all the healing they received. A single burst heal negates any real damage done in that case.

If the duration is kept this short then either the damage needs increased or it needs to have the 100ms cooldown removed. Even beyond that, this having a 12 second global cooldown severely restricts its functionality. A single cooldown per player would be more than sufficient to prevent it from being too repressive.

Necrotech_Master

Panderbander wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

(it might be ok if they uncapped how fast the oblivion dmg could apply, which in a ball group scenario could end up deleting someone if it was uncapped though)

I'm not sure that it would. As it is right now it basically plays as an absorption with some incidental damage. The set on it's own won't kill anyone, it just provides a very small window to maybe kill someone with most of the heals being nullified due to the fact that it specifically only goes off on heals. The only way I could see it nuking someone is if the heals all ticked for something like 200-300 or less, and that was all the healing they received. A single burst heal negates any real damage done in that case.

If the duration is kept this short then either the damage needs increased or it needs to have the 100ms cooldown removed. Even beyond that, this having a 12 second global cooldown severely restricts its functionality. A single cooldown per player would be more than sufficient to prevent it from being too repressive.

if it was only per target, it would potentially be too easy to keep active on 1 target for longer periods of time

(assuming it wasnt purged) elemental susceptibility applies burning chilled and concussed roughly 6-7 seconds

chilled is minor maim, concussed is minor vulnerability so either one should technically proc this, so a single cast of elemental susceptibility would trigger it every other time it proc the status effects (its like, roughly 3 times per cast or so with the duration of ele sus being 30 sec, once on application, once at 14 sec mark and one last time at 28 sec mark)

edit: i saw you noted that status effects arent procing it, im not sure if thats cause the status effects are considered procs themselves or if there is some other issue at hand

Thecompton73

Panderbander wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Gonna have to give us a bit more info about your testing methods and conditions before we can put any stock in your conclusions.

Tested against a single target in Cyrodiil stacking multiple hots on top of each other to maximize the number of procs of the Snake in the Stars set and to simulate HOT stacking as well as I could. The hots utilized were the following: Extended Ritual, Restoring Focus, Rapid Regeneration, Living Dark, Resolving Vigor, Ring of Preservation, the Grace of Gloom set, and the Almalexia's Mercy set. Earthgore was also equipped for testing but was never able to get the target low enough to proc it. This is obviously not the same extent that might be seen with a ball group but it is a significant number of individual healing events.

Overall, the healing easily outpaced the damage of the Snake in the Stars set, to the point that with just the set procced the target's health basically did not move. The set did proc quite a lot and it did provide a *very* small burst window but the duration was not long enough nor the damage high enough to truly take advantage of that window. If the intent of this set is to make it easier to break up heal stacking groups then the duration and damage miss the mark as it is currently iterated. It is my belief based on the testing I did that heal stacking will still be an incredibly robust strategy against this set. It's also worth noting that simultaneous or near simultaneous healing events will only proc the set once with the 100ms cooldown.

Interestingly, I did find that anything that provides healing absorption (the Soldier of Anguish set and the Psijic Time Stop ability) completely prevents Snake in the Stars from proccing, as it will only proc if the target's health actually increases.

EDIT: I should add that minor debuffs provided by status effects do not proc this set despite the set stating that it will proc off major or minor debuffs, meaning the Diseased, Chilled, Hemorrhaging, Concussed, and Sundered status effects will not proc Star Venom on your target despite providing minor defile, maim, mangle, vulnerability, and breach, respectively.

So the set won't be oppressive 1v1, which is a good thing. But if it comes close to nullifying 5-6 stacked HOTs for 4 seconds I'm still hopeful it will help take out tanky heal stacking players that are currently surviving against 5X their numbers.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

It seems to me like they try to solve the problems with sets sometimes because they don't want to nerf teamwork in an MMO.

People refer to heal-stacking as being an exploit. What a strange outlook. But they'd be happy with the game itself forcing a handicap. So... Players playing good is toxic... But the game itself punishing people for grouping is healthy. Hmm. Sounds like the definition of unfair to me.

It's a fair point, but I'd just hate to think that "teamwork" in ESO involves everyone spamming the same thing. It says a lot about the braindead state of healing in the game when that is the most effective.

Panderbander

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

edit: i saw you noted that status effects arent procing it, im not sure if thats cause the status effects are considered procs themselves or if there is some other issue at hand

It was status effects tied to abilities, such as Diseased from the werewolf Claws of Life ability or Sundered from Power of the Light. Only directly applied major and minor debuffs will proc it, not ones from status effects.

if it was only per target, it would potentially be too easy to keep active on 1 target for longer periods of time

So what I mean by per target is how it is right now where a target can only be affected by the debuff once every 12 seconds from any source, meaning other players couldn't apply it to that target even if they were off cooldown. As it is right now the set will proc once per 12 seconds and that target can not be affected by the set again for 12 seconds after it was initially placed on them, similar to Plaguebreak. Plaguebreak only tracks the individual target cooldowns, though, and can continue to be applied to additional targets on subsequent attacks, whereas Snake in the Stars can not.