Dalsinthus wrote: »We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.
They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.
Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.
Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.
SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »(Am never going to understand the whole streaming thing. Find it deeply tedious. And when have seen some streams, the game is a chaotic mess of AOEs and other effects that just fill the screen with light & colour. How useful is that?! 🤣)
FantasticFreddie wrote: »What zos needs to consider, IMHO, is how each change will impact their player numbers.
There is absolutely a population that will play less if this change goes through. I have been gearing up a toon to go chase a trifecta on a different role specifically because I wanted the title on THAT specific toon. I rerolled a pvp toon specifically to go get a dungeon title for her, and I was looking forward doing the same for another pvp toon.
This change has knocked the wind out of my sails. It seems pointless now. I already have those titles. Sure, nothing is stopping me from ignoring the change when it goes through and going anyway, but.... it completely removes my incentive.
On every trial trifecta team I've been on there is at least one person (sometimes it's me!) going for the title on another toon. For some people, getting these trifectas on their alts is what they have left to do in the game, and yes this change will remove their incentive to continue.
Basically, no one is going to play more because of this change, and it seems like a poor choice from a business standpoint imho.
SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »Dalsinthus wrote: »We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.
They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.
Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.
Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.
Frankly I care not a jot what Nefas says.
And 60% not that definitive.
(Am never going to understand the whole streaming thing. Find it deeply tedious. And when have seen some streams, the game is a chaotic mess of AOEs and other effects that just fill the screen with light & colour. How useful is that?! 🤣)
Sandman929 wrote: »I like Account wide titles, but those who don't have made better arguments based on how ZOS seems to be implementing this.
If it is the Player who earns the achievements, not the character, then why should some things be excluded...like Alliance War ranks, Emperor, Skyshards, etc?
The player achieved those goals, the same as any Trial achievements, and making some Account wide but not others makes no sense.
if it is the player who earned the achievement not the character?
ok, when the player earns achievements for all the trifectas what is left in endgame besides scorepushing?
im not talking about the casual player getting flawless conqueror, im talking about dawnbringer, godslayer, planesbreaker, etc, dungeon trifectas too
the backbone of eso endgame is players with experience and clears going onto new characters without the achievements to help others climb that ladder, we do not go back for these trifectas on the same character, we switch to a new character that doesnt have it
and this same concept applies to roleplayers too, would you go back to get master angler on the SAME CHARACTER THAT ALREADY HAS IT?
or switch characters, replay value
IronWooshu wrote: »If you have any questions or concerns about account wide achievements, please let us know. We can circle back with the dev team for feedback and get back to you.
@ZOS_Kevin I got a concern, what is the point of creating an alt now if all titles and achievements are unlocked? My new alt will literally have nothing to work towards and even when you do complete something you don't get the satisfaction or reward of completing it with that new character. It will literally take attachment from any new characters from us, I know it will for me.
This should be optional at least.
IronWooshu wrote: »If you have any questions or concerns about account wide achievements, please let us know. We can circle back with the dev team for feedback and get back to you.
@ZOS_Kevin I got a concern, what is the point of creating an alt now if all titles and achievements are unlocked? My new alt will literally have nothing to work towards and even when you do complete something you don't get the satisfaction or reward of completing it with that new character. It will literally take attachment from any new characters from us, I know it will for me.
This should be optional at least.
Well... how about playing simply for the enjoyment of the game? I have tons of alts, most I play only for a short period of time and move to another... but MY enjoyment of the game has nothing to do with titles or difficulty, it has to do simply with the fact I enjoy playing the game, I enjoy questing... and typically use the same title across all my characters. It's not a grandiose title compared to others, but IMO "Daedric Lord Slayer" is my favorite and does take an annoying bit of time to achieve. So how does having this available to a new alt mean that I lack the skill needed to achieve it?!?
I don't judge my characters based on their achievements or titles, I base it upon what they've accomplished in-game... as in quest progression, dungeons completed... I honestly have never EVER paid attention to titles or achievements. As I said, there is only one title that appeals to me, because IMO it's just cool.
Honestly, IMO they should just make Achievements/Titles purchasable with Crowns and allow those who want to earn them, they can, and allow those of us who just want to carry over what we've already earned, the option to do that as well.
SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »A lot of peoples on thes forum stated that the reason they only played one character is because when playing another character, they would feel like they where wasting their time,they could be gaining acheivement on their main in the mean time. All these peoples are likely to start new character, therefore play more
And a lot of people of these forums have stated that they would stop playing - but from what you say, they don’t count?
The conflicting ways of playing is why more thought needs to be given to this than was said in the reveal. Many on the different threads here have suggested decent compromises that would be worth looking at in an attempt to keep both sides happy.
SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.
Tavore1138 wrote: »Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - [...]
MasterSpatula wrote: »I can't say I think this is a good thing, either. I think this is one of those "squeaky wheel" situations, where all the people who haven't thought this through have been begging for it for eight years while everyone who understands the value of character separation had nothing to say on the matter.
And now the bad-idea wheel is getting greased.
Just speaking for myself, my competence on my various DPS characters varies wildly, so linking Achievements will be pretty much useless now. Additionally, there's a real feeling of accomplishment for some achievements that now I'll only get to feel once. It's a bad idea. It's always been a bad idea. I don't want my no-death runs on my dps to translate to my healer nor vice versa. Getting that little thrill from learning I've killed 350 skeletons in vBC1 still hits even when I've already gotten it four other times. Bye bye, little thrill.
*sigh*
drsalvation wrote: »MasterSpatula wrote: »I can't say I think this is a good thing, either. I think this is one of those "squeaky wheel" situations, where all the people who haven't thought this through have been begging for it for eight years while everyone who understands the value of character separation had nothing to say on the matter.
And now the bad-idea wheel is getting greased.
Just speaking for myself, my competence on my various DPS characters varies wildly, so linking Achievements will be pretty much useless now. Additionally, there's a real feeling of accomplishment for some achievements that now I'll only get to feel once. It's a bad idea. It's always been a bad idea. I don't want my no-death runs on my dps to translate to my healer nor vice versa. Getting that little thrill from learning I've killed 350 skeletons in vBC1 still hits even when I've already gotten it four other times. Bye bye, little thrill.
*sigh*
So could you enlighten me on the values of character separation other than roleplay?
My character once looted a thief's trove to see if I could still do it even tho I'm not part of the thief's guild, and just because of that, my character told Lady Twilight "I'm part of the guild and I've never heard of you before"...
So I see the value of that in terms of roleplaying.
But other than that? What's the reason? Crafting? I have enough skill points to do all crafting + combat stuff.
PvP or PvE? With armory, we can do both.
The only thing character separation has brought me was more costs in increasing inventory size, and horse training all over again, and replaying quests all over again, and hunting for skyshards all over again.
The only good thing is I get to try other classes and different appearances/styles.
It's a superficial value.
So please explain why should we have separate characters at this point?
SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.Tavore1138 wrote: »Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - [...]
[snip] repeating such does not make it any less false. Achievements have no bearing on roleplaying or character individuality. It's an out of character achievement tracker, not a list of actual in-character actions.
If you can distance yourself enough to act in character, distancing yourself from an out of character list should be feasible.
Again, dislike as you will, but stop hiding behind roleplaying or character individuality. It's not affected by account-wide achievements, you simply don't like it, and it's tiring for the rest of us roleplayers that we're held up as an excuse.
Titles are the primary reason some of us want account-wide achievements.
I don't care about meaningless achievement boxes being ticked off, I mostly just want to use the appropriate title on the appropriate character without redoing stuff for the 12th time.
I'm not even sure you won't be able to track it, tbh. We know nothing yet about the implementation.
We will tomorrow though.
SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.Tavore1138 wrote: »Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - [...]
[snip] repeating such does not make it any less false. Achievements have no bearing on roleplaying or character individuality. It's an out of character achievement tracker, not a list of actual in-character actions.
If you can distance yourself enough to act in character, distancing yourself from an out of character list should be feasible.
Again, dislike as you will, but stop hiding behind roleplaying or character individuality. It's not affected by account-wide achievements, you simply don't like it, and it's tiring for the rest of us roleplayers that we're held up as an excuse.
If it's a personal goal, how has the goal changed? It's personal to you. Regardless of the fact that the achievement is unlocked, you can still make it your primary goal to do it on said character to prove to yourself that you can. For personal satisfaction.StevieKingslayer wrote: »Im mad because I wanted to -earn- those on each toon as my own personal goal.
Now I dont have a goal. I was looking forward to working through each toon, to get them all respectively. Now theres gonna be no damn point.
Dalsinthus wrote: »We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.
They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.
Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.
Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.
Somebody else’s suggestion but…
On character that earned the title it’s golded
On other characters it’s not colorized.
That way it shows you have done it but just not on this character.
If it's a personal goal, how has the goal changed? It's personal to you. Regardless of the fact that the achievement is unlocked, you can still make it your primary goal to do it on said character to prove to yourself that you can. For personal satisfaction.StevieKingslayer wrote: »Im mad because I wanted to -earn- those on each toon as my own personal goal.
Now I dont have a goal. I was looking forward to working through each toon, to get them all respectively. Now theres gonna be no damn point.
But now we won't be able to track it or in some cases be even sure if it was accomplished, as the achievement popping is the only way we know right now.
Say I start a new character and I want to try getting some no death dungeons. How will I know for sure if I accomplished this if the achievement doesn't pop?
All the achievements that have numbers to do something x times?
Seriously, I would really like to know how we would know if the other characters successfully did the activity without the achievement being triggered and logged.
Literally removes a whole dimension of the game.. trying to get achievements with a different class or in a different situation.Dalsinthus wrote: »We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.
They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.
Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.
Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.
With the information we have as of this moment, I'm against this change, and I haven't voted in those polls because I'm not on those platforms.. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. In particular I always stay away from Twitter; I really dislike it.
With that said, I believe almost every poll about this is misleading. Not intentionally by the people who set up the polls, but because they often don't properly capture people who would be happy with a hybrid solution or WHY people want a certain thing. And this makes a really big difference.
For example:
Pro-Account-Wide
-People who want account-wide achievements because they feel like they "have" to do achievements on every character, and this keeps them from trying/enjoying alts.
-People who have experienced toxicity in end game because of policing of titles and achievements, and believe the game would be better off if there was no way to differentiate which toon did which accomplishment. (By the way, I believe this is why Nefas is in support of the change; he made a comment about how it would be helpful for the console end game culture somewhere.)
-People who had one "main" character for a while, but have a desire to switch to due being in a raid that needs a different class or because they are disenchanted with changes to their class, but don't want to "start over" on another character.
-People who believe EVERYTHING in the game should be account-wide, and therefore support this change as going in this direction. These folks typically tend to be the ones that will be unhappy with motifs and other things being left out of the upcoming change.
Summary: Concerns over end-game toxicity and a belief that character-specific achievements make the game too grindy (although this is somewhat a self-inflicted belief) have been at the core of all the pro-account wide folks I've seen.
Pro-Character-Specific
-People who enjoy getting the feedback of an achievement when accomplishing something on an alt.
-People who enjoy having a record of what each character did when.
-People who level alts by hunting achievements for the XP
-People who specifically keep characters from earning some titles or achievements as part of how they maintain character identity.
-People who are extremely proud of the titles they earn on a specific character and want to work on earning them on their other characters.
-People who use titles/achievements as a way to gauge experience when setting up an end game group, knowing it isn't a foolproof method but that it can increase the odds of obtaining players who at least somewhat know what they are doing.
Summary: A belief that using titles and achievements is a helpful way to vet end game players, folks who carefully craft each character to have unique identities and accomplishments, people who enjoy the satisfaction of getting an achievement when repeating content on an alt, and people who enjoy more information about what they've done in the game are the primary reasons I've seen for wanting to keep character-specific achievements.
Some groups in each camp would be perfectly happy with a small compromise, and honestly the title thing is its own separate debate. Clearly, because of the way we get collectibles and dyes, it would be an easy change for ZOS to make titles account-wide without changing achievements. It is almost a red herring.
It matters why folks are in support of one or the other, too, because the reasons can show how game-breaking or game-enhancing it will be for each concern.
What makes this even more complex is that this is not a brand new game. This is a game that had character-specific achievements since 2014, which means the change is taking something significant away from the people who enjoyed it. In my opinion, that should be an important part of the conversation. No one loses anything if they add an account-wide view, but ZOS is significantly disrupting the way all of the people who are pro-character-specific play if that option is removed.
This means it should also matter WHY ZOS wants to do this. The answer should not be just "because people asked for it." They should understand the reasons behind why the people are asking, and assess if account-wide achievements is the best way to solve the issue. Blindly implementing something because it's a popular idea right now is a mistake. Hopefully ZOS is aware of all the reasons in the pro and con camp and did their best to make a solution that meets the needs of as many people as possible.
Finally, something ZOS should really consider is that people who like character-specific achievements may be more likely to spend crowns on an item just to make their character unique. They are probably more willing to buy outfit slots, and houses, and costumes, etc. (These folks are ALSO the ones who go through the community being willing to help others get achievements the first time, because they always have another character who needs it too!) Having all of those folks leave the game or support it much less will affect the bottom line, and everyone stands to lose. I don't think anyone's quitting over NOT having account-wide achievements, but there are people who have been building many characters for years and years who may quit if they lose their character-specific achievements. Even if they aren't in the majority (because yes, "anti-grind" is very "in" right now), it would impact the game if they all got frustrated and left.