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Account Wide Titles ruin Titles

  • SerafinaWaterstar
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    It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.

    It is utterly irrelevant to them that this character is controlled by the same player. They enjoy playing through the game afresh, getting those minor & major achievements on that character. It makes the game more fun & is a good way of measuring progress - much more than the toggle off the map.

    There needs to be more thought given to this, as will severely diminish the replay value and enjoyment of the game for many. Some of the compromises suggested here would help.
  • SerafinaWaterstar
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    Dalsinthus wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    tmbrinks wrote: »
    We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.

    They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.

    Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.

    Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.

    Frankly I care not a jot what Nefas says.

    And 60% not that definitive.

    (Am never going to understand the whole streaming thing. Find it deeply tedious. And when have seen some streams, the game is a chaotic mess of AOEs and other effects that just fill the screen with light & colour. How useful is that?! 🤣)
  • adriant1978
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    (Am never going to understand the whole streaming thing. Find it deeply tedious. And when have seen some streams, the game is a chaotic mess of AOEs and other effects that just fill the screen with light & colour. How useful is that?! 🤣)

    While I don't share your opinion on account-wide achievements, you get an awesome from me for this. B)

  • Tavore1138
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    Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - just very glad the a new world of options has opened up to those of us who are getting very bored with the constant dumbing down of this game.

    Taking a long hard look at whether I renew my sub again in March after paying without a break since launch. Voting with my wallet seems like the thing to do here.
    GM - Malazan
    Raid Leader - Hungry Wolves
    Legio Mortuum
  • Dark_Lord_Kuro
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    What zos needs to consider, IMHO, is how each change will impact their player numbers.

    There is absolutely a population that will play less if this change goes through. I have been gearing up a toon to go chase a trifecta on a different role specifically because I wanted the title on THAT specific toon. I rerolled a pvp toon specifically to go get a dungeon title for her, and I was looking forward doing the same for another pvp toon.
    This change has knocked the wind out of my sails. It seems pointless now. I already have those titles. Sure, nothing is stopping me from ignoring the change when it goes through and going anyway, but.... it completely removes my incentive.
    On every trial trifecta team I've been on there is at least one person (sometimes it's me!) going for the title on another toon. For some people, getting these trifectas on their alts is what they have left to do in the game, and yes this change will remove their incentive to continue.

    Basically, no one is going to play more because of this change, and it seems like a poor choice from a business standpoint imho.

    A lot of peoples on thes forum stated that the reason they only played one character is because when playing another character, they would feel like they where wasting their time,they could be gaining acheivement on their main in the mean time. All these peoples are likely to start new character, therefore play more

    Also some of these player where stating this very reason on why new class was not an interesting thing to them and said no to it or only with class change.
    The remouval of that opsition could lead to zos creating a new one, therefore increasing playtime for a lot of player
  • Dalsinthus
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    Dalsinthus wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    tmbrinks wrote: »
    We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.

    They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.

    Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.

    Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.

    Frankly I care not a jot what Nefas says.

    And 60% not that definitive.

    (Am never going to understand the whole streaming thing. Find it deeply tedious. And when have seen some streams, the game is a chaotic mess of AOEs and other effects that just fill the screen with light & colour. How useful is that?! 🤣)

    If you actually took the time to looked at these polls, you would see the results were rather definitive:

    Twitter: 2.8k respondents
    67% supportive
    22% mixed feelings
    9% opposed

    YouTube: 347 respondents
    63% supportive
    28% mixed feelings
    7% opposed

    Source:

    In other words very different than the sentiments being expressed in this thread. Also not a scientific poll (and neither are forum thread responses).

    My point was that it is not fair to say that the majority are opposed to account wide achievements. We simply don’t know but there are signs that the majority actually favor this change. I know that I’m excited for this as are all of the guildmates that I’ve talked with.



  • Malmer
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    i think it would be great if only the achievement book or some achievements like motifs etc account wide no titles atleast not the trifecta titles pls
  • SerafinaWaterstar
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    A lot of peoples on thes forum stated that the reason they only played one character is because when playing another character, they would feel like they where wasting their time,they could be gaining acheivement on their main in the mean time. All these peoples are likely to start new character, therefore play more

    And a lot of people of these forums have stated that they would stop playing - but from what you say, they don’t count?

    The conflicting ways of playing is why more thought needs to be given to this than was said in the reveal. Many on the different threads here have suggested decent compromises that would be worth looking at in an attempt to keep both sides happy.
  • Tandor
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    The fact that a majority of one small subset of players likes something doesn't tell us anything we don't already know, namely that the community is divided over this particular change which benefits some playstyles and disadvantages others. What's more of interest to me is the question why ZOS has deemed it appropriate to make this change and whether they fully appreciate the difference of opinion over it. Several threads have produced a number of potential complications and game conflicts that could well arise if the change goes ahead in the way some imagine it may, and I do wonder if ZOS have thought it through fully or whether it's going to be subject to so many exceptions and exclusions that in the end nobody will much like it at all.

    Clearly we all need to read the patch notes tomorrow, and those that can access the PTS can try it out and report back, but the fact that there's been no consultation or advance discussion about the change prior to it being put onto the PTS doesn't fill me with great confidence. Imagine the uproar if Gina had dropped into the post-reveal show a throwaway line about the base game update including the replacement of guild traders with an auction house! These sorts of major changes need to be discussed openly in good time rather than just dropped onto the PTS with a one-line announcement a few days beforehand.
  • Sandman929
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    Csleia wrote: »
    Sandman929 wrote: »
    I like Account wide titles, but those who don't have made better arguments based on how ZOS seems to be implementing this.
    If it is the Player who earns the achievements, not the character, then why should some things be excluded...like Alliance War ranks, Emperor, Skyshards, etc?
    The player achieved those goals, the same as any Trial achievements, and making some Account wide but not others makes no sense.

    if it is the player who earned the achievement not the character?

    ok, when the player earns achievements for all the trifectas what is left in endgame besides scorepushing?

    im not talking about the casual player getting flawless conqueror, im talking about dawnbringer, godslayer, planesbreaker, etc, dungeon trifectas too

    the backbone of eso endgame is players with experience and clears going onto new characters without the achievements to help others climb that ladder, we do not go back for these trifectas on the same character, we switch to a new character that doesnt have it

    and this same concept applies to roleplayers too, would you go back to get master angler on the SAME CHARACTER THAT ALREADY HAS IT?
    or switch characters, replay value

    Hey, I already said that's a better argument than mine which is that I simply don't want to do it again.
    ZOS seems to be leaning toward my point of view, oddly.
  • ADarklore
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    IronWooshu wrote: »
    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    If you have any questions or concerns about account wide achievements, please let us know. We can circle back with the dev team for feedback and get back to you.

    @ZOS_Kevin I got a concern, what is the point of creating an alt now if all titles and achievements are unlocked? My new alt will literally have nothing to work towards and even when you do complete something you don't get the satisfaction or reward of completing it with that new character. It will literally take attachment from any new characters from us, I know it will for me.

    This should be optional at least.

    Well... how about playing simply for the enjoyment of the game? I have tons of alts, most I play only for a short period of time and move to another... but MY enjoyment of the game has nothing to do with titles or difficulty, it has to do simply with the fact I enjoy playing the game, I enjoy questing... and typically use the same title across all my characters. It's not a grandiose title compared to others, but IMO "Daedric Lord Slayer" is my favorite and does take an annoying bit of time to achieve. So how does having this available to a new alt mean that I lack the skill needed to achieve it?!?

    I don't judge my characters based on their achievements or titles, I base it upon what they've accomplished in-game... as in quest progression, dungeons completed... I honestly have never EVER paid attention to titles or achievements. As I said, there is only one title that appeals to me, because IMO it's just cool.

    Honestly, IMO they should just make Achievements/Titles purchasable with Crowns and allow those who want to earn them, they can, and allow those of us who just want to carry over what we've already earned, the option to do that as well.
    CP: 1965 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
  • SerafinaWaterstar
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    IronWooshu wrote: »
    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    If you have any questions or concerns about account wide achievements, please let us know. We can circle back with the dev team for feedback and get back to you.

    @ZOS_Kevin I got a concern, what is the point of creating an alt now if all titles and achievements are unlocked? My new alt will literally have nothing to work towards and even when you do complete something you don't get the satisfaction or reward of completing it with that new character. It will literally take attachment from any new characters from us, I know it will for me.

    This should be optional at least.

    Well... how about playing simply for the enjoyment of the game? I have tons of alts, most I play only for a short period of time and move to another... but MY enjoyment of the game has nothing to do with titles or difficulty, it has to do simply with the fact I enjoy playing the game, I enjoy questing... and typically use the same title across all my characters. It's not a grandiose title compared to others, but IMO "Daedric Lord Slayer" is my favorite and does take an annoying bit of time to achieve. So how does having this available to a new alt mean that I lack the skill needed to achieve it?!?

    I don't judge my characters based on their achievements or titles, I base it upon what they've accomplished in-game... as in quest progression, dungeons completed... I honestly have never EVER paid attention to titles or achievements. As I said, there is only one title that appeals to me, because IMO it's just cool.

    Honestly, IMO they should just make Achievements/Titles purchasable with Crowns and allow those who want to earn them, they can, and allow those of us who just want to carry over what we've already earned, the option to do that as well.

    I also don’t ‘judge’ my 18 characters on titles - but the achievements are one of the only ways of seeing what you have done on that character in the game - what you have accomplished.

    Dungeon completions are achievements in the game - so if I have done everything on my main, how am I supposed to see what I can do on my other characters, as they will show as having done all the dungeon achievements.

    Quest progression? Also comes with achievements, unlocked when complete the particular quest requirement.

    Look under the Achievement tabs and it covers EVERYTHING in the game.

    Personally I don’t care about titles, especially trial & dungeon ones. My favourite are Witch, Scoundrel & Pirate. Or Master Wizard (😉).
    But I do like using the achievements to see what I can work towards on each character.

    For instance, doing Ashlander dailies for event tickets - there is an achievement for doing a certain number, and an achievement for doing all the 6 different ones. Have been working through with separate characters so they can unlock the 6 different ones. But once account wide comes through, would be no real point in doing this as did it all on my main when Morrowind came out.

    But I am not feverishly chasing these achievements; it’s just a fun way of playing for me. I do spend an awful lot of time just pootling too.

    What concerns me about this change is that it will significantly reduce my interest in the game - I have been playing for over 6 years, and have done virtually all achievements on my main, so if that gets copied over to all my other characters, my enjoyment of playing will be significantly diminished.

    And I really really really don’t want to have to keep an out of game spreadsheet to see what my characters have *actually* done.
  • Dark_Lord_Kuro
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    A lot of peoples on thes forum stated that the reason they only played one character is because when playing another character, they would feel like they where wasting their time,they could be gaining acheivement on their main in the mean time. All these peoples are likely to start new character, therefore play more

    And a lot of people of these forums have stated that they would stop playing - but from what you say, they don’t count?

    The conflicting ways of playing is why more thought needs to be given to this than was said in the reveal. Many on the different threads here have suggested decent compromises that would be worth looking at in an attempt to keep both sides happy.

    Please quote the exact part where i said that
  • Jazraena
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    It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.
    Tavore1138 wrote: »
    Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - [...]

    [snip] repeating such does not make it any less false. Achievements have no bearing on roleplaying or character individuality. It's an out of character achievement tracker, not a list of actual in-character actions.

    If you can distance yourself enough to act in character, distancing yourself from an out of character list should be feasible.

    Again, dislike as you will, but stop hiding behind roleplaying or character individuality. It's not affected by account-wide achievements, you simply don't like it, and it's tiring for the rest of us roleplayers that we're held up as an excuse.

    [edited for minor baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on January 30, 2022 6:39PM
  • drsalvation
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    I can't say I think this is a good thing, either. I think this is one of those "squeaky wheel" situations, where all the people who haven't thought this through have been begging for it for eight years while everyone who understands the value of character separation had nothing to say on the matter.

    And now the bad-idea wheel is getting greased.

    Just speaking for myself, my competence on my various DPS characters varies wildly, so linking Achievements will be pretty much useless now. Additionally, there's a real feeling of accomplishment for some achievements that now I'll only get to feel once. It's a bad idea. It's always been a bad idea. I don't want my no-death runs on my dps to translate to my healer nor vice versa. Getting that little thrill from learning I've killed 350 skeletons in vBC1 still hits even when I've already gotten it four other times. Bye bye, little thrill.

    *sigh*

    So could you enlighten me on the values of character separation other than roleplay?
    My character once looted a thief's trove to see if I could still do it even tho I'm not part of the thief's guild, and just because of that, my character told Lady Twilight "I'm part of the guild and I've never heard of you before"...
    So I see the value of that in terms of roleplaying.

    But other than that? What's the reason? Crafting? I have enough skill points to do all crafting + combat stuff.
    PvP or PvE? With armory, we can do both.

    The only thing character separation has brought me was more costs in increasing inventory size, and horse training all over again, and replaying quests all over again, and hunting for skyshards all over again.
    The only good thing is I get to try other classes and different appearances/styles.

    It's a superficial value.
    So please explain why should we have separate characters at this point?
  • SerafinaWaterstar
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    I can't say I think this is a good thing, either. I think this is one of those "squeaky wheel" situations, where all the people who haven't thought this through have been begging for it for eight years while everyone who understands the value of character separation had nothing to say on the matter.

    And now the bad-idea wheel is getting greased.

    Just speaking for myself, my competence on my various DPS characters varies wildly, so linking Achievements will be pretty much useless now. Additionally, there's a real feeling of accomplishment for some achievements that now I'll only get to feel once. It's a bad idea. It's always been a bad idea. I don't want my no-death runs on my dps to translate to my healer nor vice versa. Getting that little thrill from learning I've killed 350 skeletons in vBC1 still hits even when I've already gotten it four other times. Bye bye, little thrill.

    *sigh*

    So could you enlighten me on the values of character separation other than roleplay?
    My character once looted a thief's trove to see if I could still do it even tho I'm not part of the thief's guild, and just because of that, my character told Lady Twilight "I'm part of the guild and I've never heard of you before"...
    So I see the value of that in terms of roleplaying.

    But other than that? What's the reason? Crafting? I have enough skill points to do all crafting + combat stuff.
    PvP or PvE? With armory, we can do both.

    The only thing character separation has brought me was more costs in increasing inventory size, and horse training all over again, and replaying quests all over again, and hunting for skyshards all over again.
    The only good thing is I get to try other classes and different appearances/styles.

    It's a superficial value.
    So please explain why should we have separate characters at this point?

    Do you never play through a game again?

    I enjoy playing through on different classes with different skills. It’s not ‘RP-ing’ as such, but do like choosing their names & appearance.

    The Achievements are the only way to really measure progress in-game - I like to know what I have done or not done on these separate characters. Its not just about titles, but little things like reading all Vivecs sermons.

    Playing the game on these different characters, learning what skills are best & improving my game are all tied in with using achievements as a guide to interesting things to do.

    I appreciate not all understand this, which is why I have repeatedly said this should be optional, or still have a way to monitor those individual achievements if that’s what if preferred.
  • tmbrinks
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    As has been stated.

    Some of us like getting achievements on different characters in different roles and classes.

    Simple as that. We don't want to lose the ability to easily track and see our progress on those other characters.

    We don't want them to take away something that has been in the game for 8 years. Something that is a draw to this particular MMO in the sea of MMOs, since as many of you have so eloquently stated "well, this "other" MMO does it" (you can play that other MMO to get what you want... we'll be left without one that fits ours if the changes happen as stated)

    The utter lack of empathy to even see our point of view is astounding.
    Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
    The Unchained - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger
    65,385 achievement points
  • LadyNalcarya
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    I don't care about account-wide titles. Tbh, leaving them character-specific (and maybe adding more rewards to incentivize re-doing trifectas) would be a good compromise.
    Account-wide achievements are a great idea, though.
    Edited by LadyNalcarya on January 30, 2022 3:40PM
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason

    PC/EU
  • Jazraena
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    Titles are the primary reason some of us want account-wide achievements.

    I don't care about meaningless achievement boxes being ticked off, I mostly just want to use the appropriate title on the appropriate character without redoing stuff for the 12th time.
  • tmbrinks
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    I've long stated that there should be an overall account achievement view (as the add-on does on PC) I run the add-on (even though my main character has everything any other character has, it hasn't always been that way).Then those that view the account can have that as their "achievement score" and those that play the character can look at each character as our "achievement score". I don't see how this has a single negative for anybody.

    I've given up the fight on titles. I don't think they should be account wide, but it doesn't matter. Full stop.

    You aren't getting account wide:
    mount training
    motifs
    trait knowledge
    research
    skill lines

    they've already been excluded (likely because they're able to be monetized)

    So, once again. How does me asking to still be able to track my individual characters achievements take anything away from what you think you're getting with this change? Why are there a half-dozen people jumping down the throats of a few of us who are just trying to make sure that we can still play the game we want without affecting you at all?
    Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
    The Unchained - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger
    65,385 achievement points
  • SerafinaWaterstar
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    Jazraena wrote: »
    It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.
    Tavore1138 wrote: »
    Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - [...]

    [snip] repeating such does not make it any less false. Achievements have no bearing on roleplaying or character individuality. It's an out of character achievement tracker, not a list of actual in-character actions.

    If you can distance yourself enough to act in character, distancing yourself from an out of character list should be feasible.

    Again, dislike as you will, but stop hiding behind roleplaying or character individuality. It's not affected by account-wide achievements, you simply don't like it, and it's tiring for the rest of us roleplayers that we're held up as an excuse.

    Um, yes, the achievement list is a record of in-character actions.

    It shows what that character has done.

    For example, my main character has done all of Morrowind, including all the little side quests like finding all Vivec’s sermons. So, if account-wide, I would have that achievement on all characters. Including those who have not set foot in Vvardenfell or done any if the story. That seems - stupid?

    And I have never said this is about role playing or anything like that. Playing through on a different separate character is about experiencing the game on that character - not rp-ing - using different classes & skills etc. And the achievements are a good way to monitor that character’s progress whilst enjoying playing the game.

    Is that really so hard to understand? 🙂

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on January 30, 2022 6:41PM
  • Jazraena
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    I'm not even sure you won't be able to track it, tbh. We know nothing yet about the implementation.

    We will tomorrow though.
  • tmbrinks
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    Jazraena wrote: »
    Titles are the primary reason some of us want account-wide achievements.

    I don't care about meaningless achievement boxes being ticked off, I mostly just want to use the appropriate title on the appropriate character without redoing stuff for the 12th time.

    You're going to get those, that's a given from the stream. I am not arguing otherwise, I think that fight is over. And it's not even what most of us are talking about.

    Some of us want those achievement boxes to be able to tick off, it's how we play the game.
    Edited by tmbrinks on January 30, 2022 3:45PM
    Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
    The Unchained - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger
    65,385 achievement points
  • tmbrinks
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    Jazraena wrote: »
    I'm not even sure you won't be able to track it, tbh. We know nothing yet about the implementation.

    We will tomorrow though.

    You're right, we don't. But the words Gina used were "when you get that achievement on one character it's going to show as complete on all characters"

    I hope beyond all hope that those words were a misrepresentation of the implementation. But I know (as somebody who has to speak in front of people everyday) that I would have picked my words very carefully and made sure I understood what I was saying before I did, and to pick the appropriate wording. It sure sounds like they're just going to smash them all together.

    So, now I feel like I have to fight like hell to try and let the powers that be know that some of us don't want this change. We have to make it known early enough because if they implement it for U33 and then back down on it, it won't be reversible once they've collapsed the data. (We've seem them very hesitant to do a roll-back of any sorts even when an update breaks core mechanics, I don't expect them to keep the database data in a condition that any new data can be merged with it later)
    Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
    The Unchained - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger
    65,385 achievement points
  • Tavore1138
    Tavore1138
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Jazraena wrote: »
    It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.
    Tavore1138 wrote: »
    Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - [...]

    [snip] repeating such does not make it any less false. Achievements have no bearing on roleplaying or character individuality. It's an out of character achievement tracker, not a list of actual in-character actions.

    If you can distance yourself enough to act in character, distancing yourself from an out of character list should be feasible.

    Again, dislike as you will, but stop hiding behind roleplaying or character individuality. It's not affected by account-wide achievements, you simply don't like it, and it's tiring for the rest of us roleplayers that we're held up as an excuse.

    As tiring us this is for those of us who are expected to swallow your personal definition of what you feel makes character individuality. Why is your take on this more valid?

    For me it includes each of my characters being individually trackable by what quests they have done, where they have been, which quest lines they have completed and what titles they have unlocked.

    I see people stating that anyone can 'buy a carry' to get titles to get into Trials groups and so on, which may be true if people want to unlock some trial title, but try buying a 'carry' for Master Angler or any other many titles/achievements that simply require you to spend time playing and enjoying the game BUT in no way force you to do them unless you care about that specific colour or title. The pleasure is in playing each time in a way that seems right at the time not rushing to the end as fast as possible just to have another fully levelled and geared 'toon' to rinse and repeat high end content - or at least that's my preferred style.

    To me - and it is my opinion which I am entitled to have - this removes something from the game which is of value to me and reduces the value of what I have done and what I might yet do.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on January 30, 2022 6:42PM
    GM - Malazan
    Raid Leader - Hungry Wolves
    Legio Mortuum
  • Serenez
    Serenez
    ✭✭✭
    Some people want this and some people don't. That is quite clear. How much representation is on each view point? That is not clear at all regardless of what random polls say.

    Regardless of who the streamer is, typically those that watch a favorite streamer, tend to be likeminded and why they like watching who they watch. Taking a sampling from a likeminded group is going to give bias results.

    Social media and ESO forum polls are also not going to give an accurate finding of who is the 'majority'. We simply do not know as these polls are not an accurate demographic sampling to give a clear outcome of results.

    The only clear way for the Development team to fully understand the impact of this both positive and negative is to reach out via email and/or in game poll with an incentive to fill it out. There would however be a situation where someone has more than one account which would need to be taken into consideration for accuracy.

    The other way is simply to let it go live and increased/decreased sales/cancellations, subs etc, customer service/feedback after the fact both positive and negative, will also be the clear indicator.

    At the end of the day there are people who role play a specific way and they are entitled to play that way. No one should dictate what is the 'right' or 'wrong' way to play. Role play has a diverse meaning depending on the style of role playing. People enjoy tracking achievements individually as it gives them a goal and a purpose to play. Do others need to understand this? No they don't. Acknowledging however that this is a style of play whether people like it or understand it, would go a long way of respecting other people's gameplay styles, even if it vastly differs from what they consider to be streamlined role playing.

    What role playing means to one person is not the same as it is for others.

    There is no clear 'majority' on either side and these polls only give an extremely small sampling of millions of players worldwide. Some want this and some don't. That is the only clarity we see here at this point until more detailed polling takes place, if that is even a consideration.
  • peacenote
    peacenote
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Troodon80 wrote: »
    Im mad because I wanted to -earn- those on each toon as my own personal goal.

    Now I dont have a goal. I was looking forward to working through each toon, to get them all respectively. Now theres gonna be no damn point.
    If it's a personal goal, how has the goal changed? It's personal to you. Regardless of the fact that the achievement is unlocked, you can still make it your primary goal to do it on said character to prove to yourself that you can. For personal satisfaction.

    But now we won't be able to track it or in some cases be even sure if it was accomplished, as the achievement popping is the only way we know right now.

    Say I start a new character and I want to try getting some no death dungeons. How will I know for sure if I accomplished this if the achievement doesn't pop?

    All the achievements that have numbers to do something x times?

    Seriously, I would really like to know how we would know if the other characters successfully did the activity without the achievement being triggered and logged.

    Literally removes a whole dimension of the game.. trying to get achievements with a different class or in a different situation.
    Dalsinthus wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    tmbrinks wrote: »
    We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.

    They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.

    Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.

    Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.

    With the information we have as of this moment, I'm against this change, and I haven't voted in those polls because I'm not on those platforms.. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. In particular I always stay away from Twitter; I really dislike it.

    With that said, I believe almost every poll about this is misleading. Not intentionally by the people who set up the polls, but because they often don't properly capture people who would be happy with a hybrid solution or WHY people want a certain thing. And this makes a really big difference.

    For example:

    Pro-Account-Wide

    -People who want account-wide achievements because they feel like they "have" to do achievements on every character, and this keeps them from trying/enjoying alts.
    -People who have experienced toxicity in end game because of policing of titles and achievements, and believe the game would be better off if there was no way to differentiate which toon did which accomplishment. (By the way, I believe this is why Nefas is in support of the change; he made a comment about how it would be helpful for the console end game culture somewhere.)
    -People who had one "main" character for a while, but have a desire to switch to due being in a raid that needs a different class or because they are disenchanted with changes to their class, but don't want to "start over" on another character.
    -People who believe EVERYTHING in the game should be account-wide, and therefore support this change as going in this direction. These folks typically tend to be the ones that will be unhappy with motifs and other things being left out of the upcoming change.

    Summary: Concerns over end-game toxicity and a belief that character-specific achievements make the game too grindy (although this is somewhat a self-inflicted belief) have been at the core of all the pro-account wide folks I've seen.



    Pro-Character-Specific


    -People who enjoy getting the feedback of an achievement when accomplishing something on an alt.
    -People who enjoy having a record of what each character did when.
    -People who level alts by hunting achievements for the XP
    -People who specifically keep characters from earning some titles or achievements as part of how they maintain character identity.
    -People who are extremely proud of the titles they earn on a specific character and want to work on earning them on their other characters.
    -People who use titles/achievements as a way to gauge experience when setting up an end game group, knowing it isn't a foolproof method but that it can increase the odds of obtaining players who at least somewhat know what they are doing.

    Summary: A belief that using titles and achievements is a helpful way to vet end game players, folks who carefully craft each character to have unique identities and accomplishments, people who enjoy the satisfaction of getting an achievement when repeating content on an alt, and people who enjoy more information about what they've done in the game are the primary reasons I've seen for wanting to keep character-specific achievements.

    Some groups in each camp would be perfectly happy with a small compromise, and honestly the title thing is its own separate debate. Clearly, because of the way we get collectibles and dyes, it would be an easy change for ZOS to make titles account-wide without changing achievements. It is almost a red herring.

    It matters why folks are in support of one or the other, too, because the reasons can show how game-breaking or game-enhancing it will be for each concern.

    What makes this even more complex is that this is not a brand new game. This is a game that had character-specific achievements since 2014, which means the change is taking something significant away from the people who enjoyed it. In my opinion, that should be an important part of the conversation. No one loses anything if they add an account-wide view, but ZOS is significantly disrupting the way all of the people who are pro-character-specific play if that option is removed.

    This means it should also matter WHY ZOS wants to do this. The answer should not be just "because people asked for it." They should understand the reasons behind why the people are asking, and assess if account-wide achievements is the best way to solve the issue. Blindly implementing something because it's a popular idea right now is a mistake. Hopefully ZOS is aware of all the reasons in the pro and con camp and did their best to make a solution that meets the needs of as many people as possible.

    Finally, something ZOS should really consider is that people who like character-specific achievements may be more likely to spend crowns on an item just to make their character unique. They are probably more willing to buy outfit slots, and houses, and costumes, etc. (These folks are ALSO the ones who go through the community being willing to help others get achievements the first time, because they always have another character who needs it too!) Having all of those folks leave the game or support it much less will affect the bottom line, and everyone stands to lose. I don't think anyone's quitting over NOT having account-wide achievements, but there are people who have been building many characters for years and years who may quit if they lose their character-specific achievements. Even if they aren't in the majority (because yes, "anti-grind" is very "in" right now), it would impact the game if they all got frustrated and left.
    Edited by peacenote on January 30, 2022 6:02PM
    My #1 wish for ESO Today: Decouple achievements from character progress and tracking.
    • Advocate for this HERE.
    • Want the history of this issue? It's HERE.
  • SerafinaWaterstar
    SerafinaWaterstar
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @peacenote

    Bloody excellent post. Thank you.
  • Seminolegirl1992
    Seminolegirl1992
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    Somebody else’s suggestion but…

    On character that earned the title it’s golded

    On other characters it’s not colorized.

    That way it shows you have done it but just not on this character.

    I've seen this mentioned by many other people so I want to keep promoting this. This is a good idea and doesn't cheapen earning difficult titles on multiple characters.
    @Seminolegirl1992 PC/NA CP 2400+ PVE, PVP, RP, Housing: Tel Galen, Fair Winds, Moon Sugar, Grand Psijic, Forsaken, HOTLC, Bastion, Ravenhurst, Gardner, Alinor, Hakkvild's, Gorinir, Kragenhome, Hundings, & more- feel free to come see! Wish list
    Former Empress | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planesbreaker | Godslayer | Gryphon Heart | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Dro-m'athra Destroyer | Dawnbringer
  • Serenez
    Serenez
    ✭✭✭
    peacenote wrote: »
    Troodon80 wrote: »
    Im mad because I wanted to -earn- those on each toon as my own personal goal.

    Now I dont have a goal. I was looking forward to working through each toon, to get them all respectively. Now theres gonna be no damn point.
    If it's a personal goal, how has the goal changed? It's personal to you. Regardless of the fact that the achievement is unlocked, you can still make it your primary goal to do it on said character to prove to yourself that you can. For personal satisfaction.

    But now we won't be able to track it or in some cases be even sure if it was accomplished, as the achievement popping is the only way we know right now.

    Say I start a new character and I want to try getting some no death dungeons. How will I know for sure if I accomplished this if the achievement doesn't pop?

    All the achievements that have numbers to do something x times?

    Seriously, I would really like to know how we would know if the other characters successfully did the activity without the achievement being triggered and logged.

    Literally removes a whole dimension of the game.. trying to get achievements with a different class or in a different situation.
    Dalsinthus wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    tmbrinks wrote: »
    We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.

    They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.

    Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.

    Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.

    With the information we have as of this moment, I'm against this change, and I haven't voted in those polls because I'm not on those platforms.. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. In particular I always stay away from Twitter; I really dislike it.

    With that said, I believe almost every poll about this is misleading. Not intentionally by the people who set up the polls, but because they often don't properly capture people who would be happy with a hybrid solution or WHY people want a certain thing. And this makes a really big difference.

    For example:

    Pro-Account-Wide

    -People who want account-wide achievements because they feel like they "have" to do achievements on every character, and this keeps them from trying/enjoying alts.
    -People who have experienced toxicity in end game because of policing of titles and achievements, and believe the game would be better off if there was no way to differentiate which toon did which accomplishment. (By the way, I believe this is why Nefas is in support of the change; he made a comment about how it would be helpful for the console end game culture somewhere.)
    -People who had one "main" character for a while, but have a desire to switch to due being in a raid that needs a different class or because they are disenchanted with changes to their class, but don't want to "start over" on another character.
    -People who believe EVERYTHING in the game should be account-wide, and therefore support this change as going in this direction. These folks typically tend to be the ones that will be unhappy with motifs and other things being left out of the upcoming change.

    Summary: Concerns over end-game toxicity and a belief that character-specific achievements make the game too grindy (although this is somewhat a self-inflicted belief) have been at the core of all the pro-account wide folks I've seen.



    Pro-Character-Specific


    -People who enjoy getting the feedback of an achievement when accomplishing something on an alt.
    -People who enjoy having a record of what each character did when.
    -People who level alts by hunting achievements for the XP
    -People who specifically keep characters from earning some titles or achievements as part of how they maintain character identity.
    -People who are extremely proud of the titles they earn on a specific character and want to work on earning them on their other characters.
    -People who use titles/achievements as a way to gauge experience when setting up an end game group, knowing it isn't a foolproof method but that it can increase the odds of obtaining players who at least somewhat know what they are doing.

    Summary: A belief that using titles and achievements is a helpful way to vet end game players, folks who carefully craft each character to have unique identities and accomplishments, people who enjoy the satisfaction of getting an achievement when repeating content on an alt, and people who enjoy more information about what they've done in the game are the primary reasons I've seen for wanting to keep character-specific achievements.

    Some groups in each camp would be perfectly happy with a small compromise, and honestly the title thing is its own separate debate. Clearly, because of the way we get collectibles and dyes, it would be an easy change for ZOS to make titles account-wide without changing achievements. It is almost a red herring.

    It matters why folks are in support of one or the other, too, because the reasons can show how game-breaking or game-enhancing it will be for each concern.

    What makes this even more complex is that this is not a brand new game. This is a game that had character-specific achievements since 2014, which means the change is taking something significant away from the people who enjoyed it. In my opinion, that should be an important part of the conversation. No one loses anything if they add an account-wide view, but ZOS is significantly disrupting the way all of the people who are pro-character-specific play if that option is removed.

    This means it should also matter WHY ZOS wants to do this. The answer should not be just "because people asked for it." They should understand the reasons behind why the people are asking, and assess if account-wide achievements is the best way to solve the issue. Blindly implementing something because it's a popular idea right now is a mistake. Hopefully ZOS is aware of all the reasons in the pro and con camp and did their best to make a solution that meets the needs of as many people as possible.

    Finally, something ZOS should really consider is that people who like character-specific achievements may be more likely to spend crowns on an item just to make their character unique. They are probably more willing to buy outfit slots, and houses, and costumes, etc. (These folks are ALSO the ones who go through the community being willing to help others get achievements the first time, because they always have another character who needs it too!) Having all of those folks leave the game or support it much less will affect the bottom line, and everyone stands to lose. I don't think anyone's quitting over NOT having account-wide achievements, but there are people who have been building many characters for years and years who may quit if they lose their character-specific achievements. Even if they aren't in the majority (because yes, "anti-grind" is very "in" right now), it would impact the game if they all got frustrated and left.

    @ZOS_Kevin This is an excellent summary by @peacenote .
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