Account Wide Titles ruin Titles

spartaxoxo

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

So role playing mean to act as if we are a in universe character, basicly like an actor in movie doe it not?
When was the last time you saw an actor pull out is script while still being in character?

At a table read

So not when actualy playing the character
Did that table read made it to the final cut of the movie?

Also if player can ignore tutoral like the wailing prison acheivement and roleplay as someone else than the vestige in prety sure its also feasable with the dark brotherhood

A table read is them actually playing the character. Sometimes they even get put up on youtube and stuff.You seem to be conflating quality with defintion in that reply. Nobody would argue a McDonald's hamburger is as good as Gordon Ramsay's hamburger, but also they are both clearly hamburgers.

Sure, it's feasible. But it's a significantly lower quality experience because it's less immersive and pulls them out of character.

spartaxoxo

Jazraena wrote: »

Cherry pick? The other definition was a theatrical performer. Neither applies here. Context matters, that was the entire point of that pic. That you then go on and start defining what acting is an acting isn't but accuse me of the same... O-kay.

Which is why I stated that dictionary clearly didn't have the defintion you were looking for, and directed you to one that did. I think you cherry picked one because you picked the only one, that was moreso a vocabulary helper than a dictionary from what I could tell, to make the point that the dictionary definition was nonsensical. When every other dictionary had the same thing "a person playing a role" as it's defintion of roleplayer. And even within the website you were using, putting on a theatrical performance was closer in definition than the one you linked.

But more importantly, you missed the actual point I made at the end: If we assume this be roleplaying, they have already chosen, no, cherry-picked to incorporate OOC Elements into their IC RP.

They haven't. For them it is a prop not an out of character element.

For no reason at all, they now refuse to... do the same again to ignore a handful of achievements? Which they already do, unless you're telling me they really incorporate every single achievement into their IC RP.

They treat the acquired and in progress achievements as an in-character prop and now the parts that they considered out of character are forced to be included in their in-character prop. This breaks their immersion. That is a roleplay issue.

We're back at square one. That's not a roleplay problem. It's a personal problem. Which is what I've been saying this entire time. So stop pretending otherwise.

No, you explicitly tried to tell them they weren't roleplaying and using the term wrong, which is as I said that part earlier the part that I disagreed with you on. I think what they are doing is roleplaying. And that something that pulls them out of character and makes it hard for them to get into character could reasonably be described as a roleplaying issue.

Jazraena wrote: »

There are differences in opinion, and then there's people just misusing the term 'roleplay' for something it's not. It's a very binary question: Is your character aware of game mechanics, or are they not?

Jazraena wrote: »

Stop pretending to roleplay when your character is aware of game mechanics.

Jazraena wrote: »

Your character does not have achievements, much like you, in real life, don't get an achievement popup when turning 20. There is absolutely no, none, zero interpretation of 'roleplaying' in which this fundamental changes and you could still call it roleplaying with a straight face without being a 4th Wall Aware Tamriel Deadpool.

Dislike global achievements if you must, but don't use roleplaying as an excuse to do so. The general reaction in roleplaying communities has been absolutely ecstatic for good reason.

At the end of the day, roleplaying is playing a role. And being forced to do something that mentally blocks or impairs your ability to inhabit that role is a roleplaying issue.

There are different types of roleplaying. I appreciate that much of the roleplaying community in the more traditional sense of the video game term are excited for the change because their titles will match their character. I literally feel the exact same way. But immersion is a purely subjective thing and none of us get to define what is immersion breaking for anyone else. If that person says this change breaks their immersion, that is valid feedback. Personally, it enhances mine so I cannot relate to that. But I do understand it.

KhajiitLivesMatter

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Cherry pick? The other definition was a theatrical performer. Neither applies here. Context matters, that was the entire point of that pic. That you then go on and start defining what acting is an acting isn't but accuse me of the same... O-kay.

Which is why I stated that dictionary clearly didn't have the defintion you were looking for, and directed you to one that did. I think you cherry picked one because you picked the only one, that was moreso a vocabulary helper than a dictionary from what I could tell, to make the point that the dictionary definition was nonsensical. When every other dictionary had the same thing "a person playing a role" as it's defintion of roleplayer. And even within the website you were using, putting on a theatrical performance was closer in definition than the one you linked.

But more importantly, you missed the actual point I made at the end: If we assume this be roleplaying, they have already chosen, no, cherry-picked to incorporate OOC Elements into their IC RP.

They haven't. For them it is a prop not an out of character element.

For no reason at all, they now refuse to... do the same again to ignore a handful of achievements? Which they already do, unless you're telling me they really incorporate every single achievement into their IC RP.

They treat the acquired and in progress achievements as an in-character prop and now the parts that they considered out of character are forced to be included in their in-character prop. This breaks their immersion. That is a roleplay issue.

We're back at square one. That's not a roleplay problem. It's a personal problem. Which is what I've been saying this entire time. So stop pretending otherwise.

No, you explicitly tried to tell them they were roleplaying incorrectly and using the term wrong. You are trying to force them to use roleplay in only the way you define it to dismiss "character breaking, immersion ruining thinga are being forced on me" as a not a roleplaying issue, because what they do doesn't qualify as roleplaying.

everything can break the immersion if u want to - but for some unimportant things which help other players i think they should accept it

(other examples what could be immersion breaking)
-charcter not deletet after death
-no ultra mega realistic virtual reality mode
-any kind of interface
-having like 100+horses/outfit/persons(banker,..)/pets in ur pocket
-no need to sleep/eat/***
-being able to carry tons of crafting materials which would weight an very high amount
-achievments at all - like rly just a floating message cause u killed 10 trolls ? didnt see that happen in real life so far
just to name a few....


so where to make the cut between useless mimimi and acutally woring lvls of immersion breaking ?

spartaxoxo

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Cherry pick? The other definition was a theatrical performer. Neither applies here. Context matters, that was the entire point of that pic. That you then go on and start defining what acting is an acting isn't but accuse me of the same... O-kay.

Which is why I stated that dictionary clearly didn't have the defintion you were looking for, and directed you to one that did. I think you cherry picked one because you picked the only one, that was moreso a vocabulary helper than a dictionary from what I could tell, to make the point that the dictionary definition was nonsensical. When every other dictionary had the same thing "a person playing a role" as it's defintion of roleplayer. And even within the website you were using, putting on a theatrical performance was closer in definition than the one you linked.

But more importantly, you missed the actual point I made at the end: If we assume this be roleplaying, they have already chosen, no, cherry-picked to incorporate OOC Elements into their IC RP.

They haven't. For them it is a prop not an out of character element.

For no reason at all, they now refuse to... do the same again to ignore a handful of achievements? Which they already do, unless you're telling me they really incorporate every single achievement into their IC RP.

They treat the acquired and in progress achievements as an in-character prop and now the parts that they considered out of character are forced to be included in their in-character prop. This breaks their immersion. That is a roleplay issue.

We're back at square one. That's not a roleplay problem. It's a personal problem. Which is what I've been saying this entire time. So stop pretending otherwise.

No, you explicitly tried to tell them they were roleplaying incorrectly and using the term wrong. You are trying to force them to use roleplay in only the way you define it to dismiss "character breaking, immersion ruining thinga are being forced on me" as a not a roleplaying issue, because what they do doesn't qualify as roleplaying.

everything can break the immersion if u want to - but for some unimportant things which help other players i think they should accept it

(other examples what could be immersion breaking)
-charcter not deletet after death
-no ultra mega realistic virtual reality mode
-any kind of interface
-having like 100+horses/outfit/persons(banker,..)/pets in ur pocket
-no need to sleep/eat/***
-being able to carry tons of crafting materials which would weight an very high amount
-achievments at all - like rly just a floating message cause u killed 10 trolls ? didnt see that happen in real life so far
just to name a few....


so where to make the cut between useless mimimi and acutally woring lvls of immersion breaking ?

That's true. But this is actually a pretty easy fix. Just let players make a choice whether or not to sync their character's achievements to their account. Accomodating this doesn't have to take away from what account wide lovers want to have. That's why I can support that suggestion even though I don't agree with it being immersion breaking, but don't support different colored titles.

I think a good place to start thinking about cutting is when a change would have a negative impact on the game they want to present.

I can't see how allowing people to continue to use a system they had work that way for years violates that idea. Nor I do see how just adding a little info on your achievement screen about your individual character would break the system for those who prefer account wide. Therefore it seems a reasonable one to accommodate.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After review, it would seem the thread is beginning to derail. Let's get back to the original discussion at hand please.

Thanks,
-Greg-

Amottica

The only thing missing from this change is the ability to continue to track individual character achievements alongside account-wide achievements. It would easily be handled with a toggle to show the account-wide or the character achievements.

If we asked for this in a unified voice I would expect Zenimax would hear us.

Elsonso

.

Amottica wrote: »

The only thing missing from this change is the ability to continue to track individual character achievements alongside account-wide achievements. It would easily be handled with a toggle to show the account-wide or the character achievements.

If we asked for this in a unified voice I would expect Zenimax would hear us.

Actually, i am pretty sure they have. We are currently waiting for them to tell us what they will be doing.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

The only thing missing from this change is the ability to continue to track individual character achievements alongside account-wide achievements. It would easily be handled with a toggle to show the account-wide or the character achievements.

If we asked for this in a unified voice I would expect Zenimax would hear us.

Yeah. I agree. They should either give you an option to opt out of sync'ing your character's achievements account wide, or at the very least give you some indication in your own journal of your character's progress.

What they should not do however is revert this change, IMO. You can't really achieve the same thing the other way around with just informing you that another character has an achievement, because we're all already well aware of that.

I also think the little celebratory bells and whistles when a character gets an achievement should remain, even though the account already has the achievement.

I don't personally think they should create different colored titles though, because at that point it's just about judging or gatekeeping how other people use their titles and not just something to keep them interesting for your own personal satisfaction. IMO

Folkb

I uhm..read titles as a different word...😳
.

Jaraal

Amottica wrote: »

If we asked for this in a unified voice I would expect Zenimax would hear us.

When Zenimax retconned the Bosmer lore and took away their stealth and replaced it with a PvP only racial passive that nobody asked for or wanted, we made a 78 page thread (and several others) protesting the unwelcome change. They heard us alright.... and closed the thread and put us on ignore.

Just because ZOS hears us is no guarantee of anything.

HertoginJanneke

karekiz wrote: »

This new system ruins character development. How can we trust people know what they are doing now?

You can not trust titles anyway, because many titles are bought.

Lucozade85

Perhaps a little icon that you and everyone can see next to the title / achievement to show if it was earned on that character or not?

I play on Xbox EU which is the least populated server, probably by quite a margin. The endgame community on this server maybe has a couple of hundred or so active players. If people end up getting all the titles on all of their characters then what else do they have to play for? As soon as I have all my titles then there's no need to play (Elden Ring in a few weeks!) but maybe I'll come back when the next trial / dungeons come in.

Although I'm on the least populated server, this may have a bigger impact on the more populated ones.

Kesstryl

BahometZ wrote: »

I don't understand why there can't just be a global achievement score tracker. Does that not do what people want?
Who actually wanted titles shared across characters who didn't do the achievements associated with them?
How is it worthwhile to undermine a considerable part of the game, which has had considerable development effort put into it, to please people who don't engage with that content.

Titles matter in the endgame community, and I would honestly hope for anyone who enjoys the personal satisfaction of achievement. If you wanted Dawnbringer on your sorc you had to earn it, now you just.... don't need to. Why would anyone bother going back into that content. For fun?? You think people enjoy no-deathing the chickens in vHoF?
People progging Godslayer on multiple teams may as well drop down to one and put all their time into that.

Yes this is just a game about collecting pixels and having a good time doing it, and it's filled by people with different motivations and goals; I enjoy many aspects of the game. But this one move is undermining the time spent by highly motivated people and will alienate them from the game. I know many people who already have difficult titles on several toons who are still keen to go in and get it done on others.

Say I've got 18 toons designed for different content, why would I want trial based achievements unlocked on some PvP bosmer stamblade, why would anyone want to roll around in the sewers with a title earned on a necro tank?

I also see a lot of people saying titles are no guarantee of a players ability, and yeah some people can be carried to some titles, but those people get found out, its just that this is going to make it even more of a chore than it was to weed out bad and duplicitous players from disrupting raid teams. I'm disappointed that Zenimax don't see how detrimental this is to the end-game raiding community.

It's yet another indication that they do not care for players who operate outside of the mainstream roleplaying community. If you pursue PvP and veteran content your time and effort is apparently of little concern.

Wrong, RPers don't like this either, we only want titles on characters who went through that content and earned it story-wise. We use the achievement tracker kind of like a character journal since there is no equivalent feature. We are losing out on this just like you. This is not what RPers want.

Elsonso

HertoginJanneke wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

This new system ruins character development. How can we trust people know what they are doing now?

You can not trust titles anyway, because many titles are bought.

Right. Titles are just fluff. They don't mean anything. Even if the player earned it legitimately, the title does not mean that the player is still able to do the content. It just means that at one time, back in the glory days, possibly deliberately or perhaps through a fluke, they managed to do a thing that they may never be able to do again.

It is like winning some sports award in high school.

(edit... and, of course, I am talking about the 'elite' achievements that award special titles, not "Magnanimous" and the others that come from events and completing zone stories)

Massive_Stain

account wide titles and achievements are fine. as one of the people said in the beginning of this thread - it is still the same person doing it, and tbh, you are going to find out REEAL quick who the carry was.

zaria

Elsonso wrote: »

.

Amottica wrote: »

The only thing missing from this change is the ability to continue to track individual character achievements alongside account-wide achievements. It would easily be handled with a toggle to show the account-wide or the character achievements.

If we asked for this in a unified voice I would expect Zenimax would hear us.

Actually, i am pretty sure they have. We are currently waiting for them to tell us what they will be doing.

Agree, I assume achievements are used for a lot in the game like who skyshards you have collected and dungeons you have cleared, this is obviously character based and has real effects like skill points and leveling undaunted.
The things who is shared is more like titles, pretty sure you will not get master angler doing all but Cyrodil on your main and Cyrodil on your PvP character.

tmbrinks

I don't know why we're obsessed with carries.

Most carries are for

1. Gear.
2. Cosmetics/Skins/Etc.
3. A specific title (usually for character feel, like "Bringer of Light" for a Templar)
4. ...
5. ...
.
.
.
100.? Getting a title to fake your way into a group you shouldn't be in?

Odovacar

tmbrinks wrote: »

I don't know why we're obsessed with carries.


100.? Getting a title to fake your way into a group you shouldn't be in?

As someone who's coordinated many carries ...we always remember who (unless as of a few years ago they can change their PSN but their changed name still shows in messages). Everything remains discreet as to be respectful for those who fork over millions for their carry. I have to say too most just want the gear, and cosmetics. Many want return runs for a bit of a discount which is nice ...but again for the gear. We've even had some who just wanted people to actually play with and want to learn mechs, etc...paying of course.

Title flexing to get into a group would be hilarious and they would be exposed real quick as the end game community is quite small.. especially on PSN. A TRIAL title means nothing to me and many others or skins tbh.

svendf

gronoxvx wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I fail to see how this ruins titles. If they actually earned it then they do know what they are doing.

How do you know they have not paid for a clear as things stand now? That means account-wide titles are not that big of an issue.

You can tell within the first few mins of starting an instance that someone paid for their title. Either through them not following mechanics specific to the content or even testing their knowledge of mechanics before the instance begins.

We have new dungeons coming and some try to learn the mechs on PTS before going live. Those mechs can change before going live and people getting wacked. It´s all about learning without short cuts.

Titles are earned by doing instance once. So according to you a player with a title, who go down by mechs have payed for title or don´t follow certain mechs, must have payed.

Congrats sir, with that statement we have alot of ESO players, who have payed for their titles. A player, who have earned a title and done "that" content once will be a bit rusty. Do you agree ?

It´s about learning and doing it over and over again, until it is getting comfy. You could even been away from some content and forget.

Im not against account wide system as a host find it positive people join as long you don´t fake your role

Cheers

rbfrgsp

I don't think I have ever read anyone's title.

Remathilis

You know what's annoying? Every one of my characters has "recruit" as a title despite never PvPing or ever leaving base camp. They had to get it to get vigor and continuous assault, and most got it by talking to the quest giver, skipping the tutorial, and getting AP at the end of the month from daily logins.

If every one of my characters has recruit, even the ones who actively have avoided the War, your templar can ignore the silencer your other toon got.

Tandor

Amottica wrote: »

The only thing missing from this change is the ability to continue to track individual character achievements alongside account-wide achievements. It would easily be handled with a toggle to show the account-wide or the character achievements.

If we asked for this in a unified voice I would expect Zenimax would hear us.

Please make sure you have requested it in the Feedback thread for account-wide achievements on the PTS forum, that is the thread ZOS have confirmed they are watching closely.

Sarannah

Personally I do not see an issue with accountwide titles. Players earned those titles on their account, so they should be able to use those titles on any characters.

Karivaa

So if we get all the skyshard hunting titles do we get the sky shards too?

colossalvoids

Karivaa wrote: »

So if we get all the skyshard hunting titles do we get the sky shards too?

We don't, obviously.

Jazraena

Kesstryl wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

I don't understand why there can't just be a global achievement score tracker. Does that not do what people want?
Who actually wanted titles shared across characters who didn't do the achievements associated with them?
How is it worthwhile to undermine a considerable part of the game, which has had considerable development effort put into it, to please people who don't engage with that content.

Titles matter in the endgame community, and I would honestly hope for anyone who enjoys the personal satisfaction of achievement. If you wanted Dawnbringer on your sorc you had to earn it, now you just.... don't need to. Why would anyone bother going back into that content. For fun?? You think people enjoy no-deathing the chickens in vHoF?
People progging Godslayer on multiple teams may as well drop down to one and put all their time into that.

Yes this is just a game about collecting pixels and having a good time doing it, and it's filled by people with different motivations and goals; I enjoy many aspects of the game. But this one move is undermining the time spent by highly motivated people and will alienate them from the game. I know many people who already have difficult titles on several toons who are still keen to go in and get it done on others.

Say I've got 18 toons designed for different content, why would I want trial based achievements unlocked on some PvP bosmer stamblade, why would anyone want to roll around in the sewers with a title earned on a necro tank?

I also see a lot of people saying titles are no guarantee of a players ability, and yeah some people can be carried to some titles, but those people get found out, its just that this is going to make it even more of a chore than it was to weed out bad and duplicitous players from disrupting raid teams. I'm disappointed that Zenimax don't see how detrimental this is to the end-game raiding community.

It's yet another indication that they do not care for players who operate outside of the mainstream roleplaying community. If you pursue PvP and veteran content your time and effort is apparently of little concern.

Wrong, RPers don't like this either, we only want titles on characters who went through that content and earned it story-wise. We use the achievement tracker kind of like a character journal since there is no equivalent feature. We are losing out on this just like you. This is not what RPers want.

We just spent several pages discussing RPers and what they want. With respect to the derailing observation above, lets not get into it again, but please refrain from speaking for all RPers, because the RP community at large is looking forward to this pretty hard.

Dexter411

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

For account wide archivements just mark what character got it.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

If you have any questions or concerns about account wide achievements, please let us know. We can circle back with the dev team for feedback and get back to you.

This! Add something to know if this is account achievement or was done on specific character.

This will be really annoying to filter out if you can not find solid group for some trials.

I did, lets say, vSS on dd, multiple times, I have good understanding of mechanics but as DD. If I would switch to tank, I have no idea what to do, same as healer. And that is the main reason people want to link achievements.

zaria

Dexter411 wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

For account wide archivements just mark what character got it.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

If you have any questions or concerns about account wide achievements, please let us know. We can circle back with the dev team for feedback and get back to you.

This! Add something to know if this is account achievement or was done on specific character.

This will be really annoying to filter out if you can not find solid group for some trials.

I did, lets say, vSS on dd, multiple times, I have good understanding of mechanics but as DD. If I would switch to tank, I have no idea what to do, same as healer. And that is the main reason people want to link achievements.

As the achievement might be many years old on an build who was rebuild or just outdated, or you might got carried on an guild run who needed one more.
Well if you join for an pug vSS on an weak support build not up for normal you are wasting your time and you know that or the dunning kruger effect is very alive.

FrancisCrawford

Amottica wrote: »

The only thing missing from this change is the ability to continue to track individual character achievements alongside account-wide achievements. It would easily be handled with a toggle to show the account-wide or the character achievements.

If we asked for this in a unified voice I would expect Zenimax would hear us.

Directionally, you're right:

• There's substantial gameplay benefit to character-specific achievements, for example in Undaunted progress.
• There's major QOL benefit to character-specific accomplishment tracking, for example in skyshards or delve clears.

Taking either or both of those away would be horrific.

Separately, people are arguing about whether vanity titles should be earned on character-by-character basis, as is now the case, or account-wide. Each choice has advantages and drawbacks.

Tandor

Jazraena wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

I don't understand why there can't just be a global achievement score tracker. Does that not do what people want?
Who actually wanted titles shared across characters who didn't do the achievements associated with them?
How is it worthwhile to undermine a considerable part of the game, which has had considerable development effort put into it, to please people who don't engage with that content.

Titles matter in the endgame community, and I would honestly hope for anyone who enjoys the personal satisfaction of achievement. If you wanted Dawnbringer on your sorc you had to earn it, now you just.... don't need to. Why would anyone bother going back into that content. For fun?? You think people enjoy no-deathing the chickens in vHoF?
People progging Godslayer on multiple teams may as well drop down to one and put all their time into that.

Yes this is just a game about collecting pixels and having a good time doing it, and it's filled by people with different motivations and goals; I enjoy many aspects of the game. But this one move is undermining the time spent by highly motivated people and will alienate them from the game. I know many people who already have difficult titles on several toons who are still keen to go in and get it done on others.

Say I've got 18 toons designed for different content, why would I want trial based achievements unlocked on some PvP bosmer stamblade, why would anyone want to roll around in the sewers with a title earned on a necro tank?

I also see a lot of people saying titles are no guarantee of a players ability, and yeah some people can be carried to some titles, but those people get found out, its just that this is going to make it even more of a chore than it was to weed out bad and duplicitous players from disrupting raid teams. I'm disappointed that Zenimax don't see how detrimental this is to the end-game raiding community.

It's yet another indication that they do not care for players who operate outside of the mainstream roleplaying community. If you pursue PvP and veteran content your time and effort is apparently of little concern.

Wrong, RPers don't like this either, we only want titles on characters who went through that content and earned it story-wise. We use the achievement tracker kind of like a character journal since there is no equivalent feature. We are losing out on this just like you. This is not what RPers want.

We just spent several pages discussing RPers and what they want. With respect to the derailing observation above, lets not get into it again, but please refrain from speaking for all RPers, because the RP community at large is looking forward to this pretty hard.

Out of interest, what's the difference between one person generalising about RPers and another person talking about the RP community at large?