Account Wide Titles ruin Titles

Seminolegirl1992

RisenEclipse wrote: »

So I'm seeing a lot of comments about RPers, and I think I need to correct some mistakes about it. There are TWO types of RPers.

One is the guy that plays a nightblade character, give him titles that match, cp points to match, justifies what they do in the game based on their thief character. They might make a backstory in their head for their character. They might avoid certain dungeons, guilds, or areas, because that's not what their character would do.

Then there is the vastly more numerous RPers who play the game like everyone else. Don't put restrictions on their characters in the game. CP points, npc guilds, ect don't matter but for their PvE or PvP goals. They write backstories for their characters, typically post them on forums. They interact with other characters by posting what their character does in chat in a story writing way. They put a separation between what they do in GAME and what they do in RP. You'll see them in taverns mostly in the overworld posting to each other. Think of it as them each helping to write one big story. The best example I can give is DnD. Enemies fought in RP are invisible enemies created for the story, with many guilds having their own way on fighting them (dice rolls for example).

There can also be a mix of the two. But the second one usually separates what they do in game, from what their character is. So this change wouldn't effect their rp at all. They could be playing a necromancer for the PvE build, but in RP he is a farmer, turned knight after his family was brutally murdered by bandits and seeks other like minded people to help cleanse the land of evil. You might not see very many RPers because once housing came along, most of the RP community decided to do their RP in housing now, or a few taverns in the over world, due to insistent trolling against them when they do decide to come out and rp. But there is a large community, with its own website and directory (its TESO RP if you're interested in looking at it).

The second one is me. One of my ESO DnD toons is a magicka necromancer in game, but RP wise he is a ranger with a bow. What I do in game has nothing to do with how I actually roleplay him. I'm one of the RPers with the mindset that account wide titles are slightly problematic. I looove the idea of account wide achievements, and..titles actually. But I would *love* for the ability to distinguish whether a title was earned by that character (like colorizing titles to reflect that). There seem to be a lot of people (myself included) who feel this would cheapen earning difficult titles more than once. There would be less incentive to earn Flawless Conqueror on multiple toons because there's no way to distinguish if that character got it. It hurts the endgame community who look at title earning as one way to motivate them to play. However, it is also nice to have access to all my titles across my 18 toons for rp reasons. I can see both sides because I am both an RPer and endgamer. Coloring the titles or perhaps even adding Flawless Conqueror x2, or x3, x18 etc are both options. Another thing to consider- I love looking at the dates that I completed certain achievements on certain characters, as a means to track my progress. I hope that won't be erased when achievements are merged.

spartaxoxo

Varana wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It wasn't a truce. People who wanted account wide achievements had no achievements that worked the way they wanted it. That some character achievement wanted things to be even more lopsided in their favor doesn't mean that character achievement hasn't reigned supreme as the dominant way the achievement system worked. And after years people gave up hope on this.

A truce implies that people were agreeing with the way things worked, taking silence as consent. It wasn't, it's just when a system in a game works for like 7 years or whatever it is now, nobody expects change and resigns themselves that this is just how it works.

But they did. Not the achievements themselves but most rewards for achievements already worked account-wide. There is so much backlash to titles (looking at it, a rather minor reward) because that, once achievements are account-wide, that is the only thing that would be character-specific. And even now, you don't see achievements in the game w/o linking them in chat. A title is the only in-game visible part of an achievement that is character-specific. Everything else - mounts, dyes, styles, skins, polymorphs, costumes, ... is already account-wide.

Achievements are not the rewards, the primary thing about achievements are the achievements. Which is why so many people who wanted it to be character specific are losing their mind about it. Because they know the vast majority of the satisfaction of an achievement comes from obtaining them.

Presenting a small handful of rewards, many of which most of the playerbase had no meaningful access to because they are locked behind content that literally like .1% of the playerbase has access to, as the same thing as having achievements work the way you want it is just trying to change the reality of the situation that people who wanted account wide achievements were never satisifed and largely did not have what they wanted.

Jaraal

Tandor wrote: »

...and I do wonder if ZOS have thought it through fully or whether it's going to be subject to so many exceptions and exclusions that in the end nobody will much like it at all.

Yeah, the first thing that came to mind when I read that was Fizzbin, from Star Trek. Turn up the second card, but only on Tuesday. And you need a king and a deuce, unless it's night, when you need a queen and a four, etc. Meaning, if some achievements are account wide but others aren't, there will be inherent confusion. And regardless of which ones are or aren't account wide, there will still be complaints about why the remaining ones aren't account wide.

Any changes to the system is a lose/lose proposition, in my opinion.

Jaraal

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Somebody else’s suggestion but…

On character that earned the title it’s golded

On other characters it’s not colorized.

That way it shows you have done it but just not on this character.

I've seen this mentioned by many other people so I want to keep promoting this. This is a good idea and doesn't cheapen earning difficult titles on multiple characters.

But golded/non-golded goes against the very reason people want account wide titles in the first place. They don't want you to know that they failed to get the title on the current character. And that's exactly the impression the (non) coloring would give.

deleted221106-002999

I have no objection to account wide achievements as a separate progress indicator or journal tab but NOT at the expense of losing individual character achievement progression as currently exists.

As for titles: I don't care. If someone wants to stick a title on their new character, that's entirely their choice.

But please do NOT take away individual character achievements as currently deployed in game. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

spartaxoxo

Someone mentioned that in WoW, the achievements are account-wide but you still get some kind of festive achievement notice when you get it again on an individual character.

I think that would be good. In your character menu it could also look something like this, with --/--/-- where the date would be, since you haven't gotten it yet on that character but did get it on the account.



This way an individual player can know when their specific character got the achievement. I also think they should still give you the celebratory pop-up when the individual character has the achievement. That way people know when their character got it and not just the account. Your points are still account wide and it still shows up unlocked account wide, but there is the space for an individual player to know whether or not they got it. The title would also still be rewarded and not in a scarlet format either.

xclassgaming

No it doesn't.

blktauna

Jaraal wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Somebody else’s suggestion but…

On character that earned the title it’s golded

On other characters it’s not colorized.

That way it shows you have done it but just not on this character.

I've seen this mentioned by many other people so I want to keep promoting this. This is a good idea and doesn't cheapen earning difficult titles on multiple characters.

But golded/non-golded goes against the very reason people want account wide titles in the first place. They don't want you to know that they failed to get the title on the current character. And that's exactly the impression the (non) coloring would give.

um no... titles are a. cosmetic and prove nothing even if you have one and b. some of us use them for comedy value if and when we remember to use them at all. I've never had anyone ask to see a title in 4 years. Who does that? I'm assuming there's some reason but people get carried on big achievements all the time. Titles are basically meaningless.

Varana

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Someone mentioned that in WoW, the achievements are account-wide but you still get some kind of festive achievement notice when you get it again on an individual character.

I think that would be good. In your character menu it could also look something like this, with --/--/-- where the date would be, since you haven't gotten it yet on that character but did get it on the account.

Those two things are really important for me.

Achievements are a really good record of the character. As in the screenshot I linked above - I wanted to check when I did a certain quest line on that character, and there's the achievement documenting that. (Five years had gone by, so good luck remembering that detail...)

Or this week - one of the weekly Endeavours was seven Public Dungeon group events. So I took a character that hadn't done all of them and needed a few skill points - but how do you find out which of these you've done or not? Easy - check the achievements on that character.

And various other practical or "emotional" uses for having some form of documentation of what a character did when.

All of that would vanish if they just collapsed all achievements into one. And, together with other reasons, I think that would be a really, really bad idea.

spartaxoxo

Varana wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Someone mentioned that in WoW, the achievements are account-wide but you still get some kind of festive achievement notice when you get it again on an individual character.

I think that would be good. In your character menu it could also look something like this, with --/--/-- where the date would be, since you haven't gotten it yet on that character but did get it on the account.

Those two things are really important for me.

Achievements are a really good record of the character. As in the screenshot I linked above - I wanted to check when I did a certain quest line on that character, and there's the achievement documenting that. (Five years had gone by, so good luck remembering that detail...)

Or this week - one of the weekly Endeavours was seven Public Dungeon group events. So I took a character that hadn't done all of them and needed a few skill points - but how do you find out which of these you've done or not? Easy - check the achievements on that character.

And various other practical or "emotional" uses for having some form of documentation of what a character did when.

All of that would vanish if they just collapsed all achievements into one. And, together with other reasons, I think that would be a really, really bad idea.

I think it's an important aspect for a lot of us. I don't want that part to be lost due to account wide achievements. I just want to end the annoyance that comes with switching characters or worse, changing your main. To me it's by far the most important aspect of the system and drastically outweighs anything else in importance. And that part can be both account wide and character specific pretty easily.

Jazraena

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - [...]

[snip] repeating such does not make it any less false. Achievements have no bearing on roleplaying or character individuality. It's an out of character achievement tracker, not a list of actual in-character actions.

If you can distance yourself enough to act in character, distancing yourself from an out of character list should be feasible.

Again, dislike as you will, but stop hiding behind roleplaying or character individuality. It's not affected by account-wide achievements, you simply don't like it, and it's tiring for the rest of us roleplayers that we're held up as an excuse.

As tiring us this is for those of us who are expected to swallow your personal definition of what you feel makes character individuality. Why is your take on this more valid?

For me it includes each of my characters being individually trackable by what quests they have done, where they have been, which quest lines they have completed and what titles they have unlocked.

I see people stating that anyone can 'buy a carry' to get titles to get into Trials groups and so on, which may be true if people want to unlock some trial title, but try buying a 'carry' for Master Angler or any other many titles/achievements that simply require you to spend time playing and enjoying the game BUT in no way force you to do them unless you care about that specific colour or title. The pleasure is in playing each time in a way that seems right at the time not rushing to the end as fast as possible just to have another fully levelled and geared 'toon' to rinse and repeat high end content - or at least that's my preferred style.

To me - and it is my opinion which I am entitled to have - this removes something from the game which is of value to me and reduces the value of what I have done and what I might yet do.

[edited to remove quote]

[snip]

Roleplaying means playing a role. That means your character cannot intrinsically be aware of an achievement tab. I certainly wouldn't mind if each achievement listed precisely when each character achieved it, it's a legit additional function.

But it's not roleplay-related. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

spartaxoxo

Jazraena wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

It seems as if there are players out there who just can’t understand that for other players, their different characters are separate individuals.

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Sadly the people who believe this is an Account Playing Game have won the final battle against those of us who thought it was a Role Playing Game - [...]

[snip] repeating such does not make it any less false. Achievements have no bearing on roleplaying or character individuality. It's an out of character achievement tracker, not a list of actual in-character actions.

If you can distance yourself enough to act in character, distancing yourself from an out of character list should be feasible.

Again, dislike as you will, but stop hiding behind roleplaying or character individuality. It's not affected by account-wide achievements, you simply don't like it, and it's tiring for the rest of us roleplayers that we're held up as an excuse.

As tiring us this is for those of us who are expected to swallow your personal definition of what you feel makes character individuality. Why is your take on this more valid?

For me it includes each of my characters being individually trackable by what quests they have done, where they have been, which quest lines they have completed and what titles they have unlocked.

I see people stating that anyone can 'buy a carry' to get titles to get into Trials groups and so on, which may be true if people want to unlock some trial title, but try buying a 'carry' for Master Angler or any other many titles/achievements that simply require you to spend time playing and enjoying the game BUT in no way force you to do them unless you care about that specific colour or title. The pleasure is in playing each time in a way that seems right at the time not rushing to the end as fast as possible just to have another fully levelled and geared 'toon' to rinse and repeat high end content - or at least that's my preferred style.

To me - and it is my opinion which I am entitled to have - this removes something from the game which is of value to me and reduces the value of what I have done and what I might yet do.

[edited to remove quote]

[snip]

Roleplaying means playing a role. That means your character cannot intrinsically be aware of an achievement tab. I certainly wouldn't mind if each achievement listed precisely when each character achieved it, it's a legit additional function.

But it's not roleplay-related. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Playing a role doesn't exclude 4th-wall breaking.

Jazraena

Maybe not in a Space Balls or similarly non-serious comedic setting. TES isn't it.

spartaxoxo

Jazraena wrote: »

Maybe not in a Space Balls or similarly non-serious comedic setting. TES isn't it.

ESO itself 4th wall breaks and has plenty of comedy, actually.

Tan9oSuccka

I like the change. Overall, a positive for the community.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

BahometZ

I can get behind account wide achievements, just not account wide titles.

I get some people don't really regard titles very much, but a lot of people do. The argument that titles can be bought so they don't mean anything is pretty specious, as most titles are earned.

I will say it is interesting that they have plans for this given how many people seem uncomfortable with it. I think all of the posts in the past that asked for this to happen didn't get much push back because people who are satisfied with the status quo don't go on forums to complain about stuff.

If as someone suggested achievement points may be tied to rewards and collectibles that would be interesting, but then would they be retroactive?

And if titles are going to be shared then what novel and worthwhile rewards will there be for repeated achievements. What more could we possible want? More body markings, more pets?

Arrodisia

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

1) people use and notice titles?

2) I thought achievements as a gauge of "can they do this hardmode" were already "useless" due to paid carry runs.

This exactly.

Jaraal

Brrrofski wrote: »

RIP to those 18 time Master Anglers.

Our thoughts are with you.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Coloring the titles or perhaps even adding Flawless Conqueror x2, or x3, x18 etc are both options.

If this account wide thing actually makes it to live, this would be the best compromise I could see. "8 Time Emperor", "18 Time Master Angler", "12 Time Flawless Conquerer", etcetera for the number of characters the player has actually gotten the achievement on. Then somebody could go roleplay their title on an alt, while the people who put in the work on multiple toons would still have something to take pride in publicly. And it would actually make people want to grind more, so they can keep augmenting their title. And as far as gatekeeping goes, who's going to question "5 Time Tick-Tock Tormentor"? Surely you wouldn't expect that someone paid for five carries?

Varana

Jazraena wrote: »

Maybe not in a Space Balls or similarly non-serious comedic setting. TES isn't it.

Look, I've been in quite a few communities around actual role-playing (as in, pen-and-paper around a table), and that form of gatekeeping, determining that people have "BAD WRONG FUN (TM)" and they're not "real roleplayers", is usually, for good reasons, let's say ... frowned upon.

How people choose to play their role, which information they choose to include, how they interpret the game interface, what parts of the game they choose to engage with and how they include that into their characters (or not) - that is their choice, and doesn't make it "inferior".

The achievement tab in this game functions as a combined character journal and medal count. Both can, at least for quite a number of achievements, very well be seen as in-game information available to the character. Dismissing that is a really weird stance - from a roleplaying point of view.

Ankahet

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

What zos needs to consider, IMHO, is how each change will impact their player numbers.

There is absolutely a population that will play less if this change goes through. I have been gearing up a toon to go chase a trifecta on a different role specifically because I wanted the title on THAT specific toon. I rerolled a pvp toon specifically to go get a dungeon title for her, and I was looking forward doing the same for another pvp toon.
This change has knocked the wind out of my sails. It seems pointless now. I already have those titles. Sure, nothing is stopping me from ignoring the change when it goes through and going anyway, but.... it completely removes my incentive.
On every trial trifecta team I've been on there is at least one person (sometimes it's me!) going for the title on another toon. For some people, getting these trifectas on their alts is what they have left to do in the game, and yes this change will remove their incentive to continue.

Basically, no one is going to play more because of this change, and it seems like a poor choice from a business standpoint imho.

If you play less, or, refuse to play because of something that does not affect character gearing, physical rewards or actual progression, then you are choosing to allow something very minor to attract you too much. By your logic, each character should be made to join the same guild over and over and not be a part of the ones joined. Or to get mail entirely separately from any other character. Not share bank space. It's a bit rediculous.

Jazraena

Varana wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Maybe not in a Space Balls or similarly non-serious comedic setting. TES isn't it.

Look, I've been in quite a few communities around actual role-playing (as in, pen-and-paper around a table), and that form of gatekeeping, determining that people have "BAD WRONG FUN (TM)" and they're not "real roleplayers", is usually, for good reasons, let's say ... frowned upon.

How people choose to play their role, which information they choose to include, how they interpret the game interface, what parts of the game they choose to engage with and how they include that into their characters (or not) - that is their choice, and doesn't make it "inferior".

The achievement tab in this game functions as a combined character journal and medal count. Both can, at least for quite a number of achievements, very well be seen as in-game information available to the character. Dismissing that is a really weird stance - from a roleplaying point of view.

I have not even once suggested people are not allowed to have their own kind of fun, nor am I 'gatekeeping', thank you very much. I'm saying people are misusing the term 'roleplaying'. If we want to talk P&P, it's the same as people playing D&D but not bothering with actual in-character play - they're playing the game (and it can be great fun that way!) but they're not roleplaying.

Much like you can't press J and open your quest journal and achievement list IRL, your character can't do so in Tamriel, and your D&D character can't read your character sheet. To suggest otherwise is precisely the sort of 4th Wall Breaking into game mechanics that's well outside the scope of roleplaying; in the same vein of your character not really being capable of carrying 210 different cuirasses.

Roleplaying does not intrinsically conflict with any change to achievements you could possibly think of.

spartaxoxo

4th wall breaking is not inherently against role-playing, and suggesting it is, is gate keeping as it is NOT part of the definition.

Jazraena

spartaxoxo wrote: »

4th wall breaking is not inherently against role-playing, and suggesting it is, is gate keeping as it is NOT part of the definition.

Again, sure - if you play Space Balls. Or Deadpool. Or... you get the vibe.

Otherwise, opening the actual game interface is sort of hard to classify as in-character.

spartaxoxo

Jazraena wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

4th wall breaking is not inherently against role-playing, and suggesting it is, is gate keeping as it is NOT part of the definition.

Again, sure - if you play Space Balls. Or Deadpool. Or... you get the vibe.

Otherwise, opening the actual game interface is sort of hard to classify as in-character.

Again, this game literally has 4th wall breaking as part of it's established universe (Sotha Sil, Vivec, and M'aiq the Liar). And this game also has plenty of comedic elements. Regardless, "only comedies are allowed to 4th wall break," is not a part of the definition of role-playing, it's a gate you put up and are presenting as objective truth.

Besides who is to say that someone isn't role-playing Deadpool getting sucked into the ESO universe and becoming the Vestige?

Jazraena

Humorous takes are not the same as Space Balls, and none of the three characters mentioned are inherently 4th Wall breaking.

And please, 'But I am really Deadpool!' really isn't helping your argument.

spartaxoxo

Jazraena wrote: »

Humorous takes are not the same as Space Balls, and none of the three characters mentioned are inherently 4th Wall breaking.

And please, 'But I am really Deadpool!' really isn't helping your argument.

No, they are

M'aiq's father was Qia'm, from a long line of Qia'ms. But M'aiq does not believe this. His father was a known liar.

M'aiq says this line because even though you've met a M'aiq before, this game is set backwards in time.

In Morrowind he will literally talk to you about multiplayer.

multiplayer: "M'Aiq does not know this word. You wish others to help you in your quest? Coward! If you must, search for the Argonian Im-Leet, or perhaps the big Nord, Rolf the Uber. They will certainly wish to join you."

The game intentionally breaks the 4th wall while also plausibly not breaking it, if you don't want it too.

And the Deadpool argument WOULD help if you weren't going by arbitrary gatekeeping.

You claim that it can only happen with Deadpool and now you say that me literally acting out Deadpool also doesn't count.

Why? Because you're trying to define role-playing in eso as serious, and therefore stuff like 4th wall breaking inappropriate.

You can define role-playing eso properly any way you feel like for your groups. But, there is nothing in the defintion of roleplay about it needing to be treated differently for serious games. Just like 4th wall breaking isn't inherently against role-playing, with Deadpool merely being a famous example.

Role-playing is defined simply as taking on a role. It's the opposite of being yourself. How you inhabit that role, the tone you take, the things that are acceptable or not to do while playing that role are subjective.

If someone feels their achievements are part of their character, or even if they just want to do something stupid like pretend to be Deadpool, that is still role-playing because they are inhabiting a role outside of themselves.

Jazraena

Again, if you have to go 'I am Deadpool but in Tamriel' to justify opening the game interface in-character and thus call yourself a roleplayer, and thus justifying some sort of intrinsic incompatibility between account-wide achievements and roleplaying you are really not helping your argument, and you're definitely not gaining sympathy for your position.

Just let it rest. It's okay to dislike changes for personal reasons without dragging RP in front as a shield.

spartaxoxo

Pretending to be Deadpool is the literal defintion of Role-playing. That you won't even concede something is role-playing by it's most strict defintion I think perfectly illustrates this isn't you trying to keep the definition used properly. This is you trying to gatekeep who is a role-player and how they have to roleplay.

Meanwhile the actual definition is just this:



That's Oxford by the way, the world's leading authority on the English language. You'll notice there are no restrictions on tone, 4th wall breaking, or any other entirely arbitrary restriction you have come up with to pass off your subjective definition as objective.

And I am not someone who favors character specific achievements. I actually favor account wide ones and am happy with the change. It will actually enhance the way I roleplay. I am only saying something because words mean things. And nobody here should go around thinking they are role-playing this game the wrong way.

Are the things they are doing things they think their character would do? Are they happy with it? Are they hurting anyone else? Then they are role-playing. Yay for them.

There is no tone you have to take to roleplay.

Jazraena

Mate, I'm well aware of the usage of the word 'roleplaying' outside of an Elder Scrolls CRPG context, especially on the psychological and educational side of the equation. I certainly don't need context-free Oxford lecturing on it that evidently even fails on basic proofreading of it's definitions.

But context is key, and we're not sitting in a classroom roleplaying through an instructor training session.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

So role playing mean to act as if we are a in universe character, basicly like an actor in movie doe it not?
When was the last time you saw an actor pull out is script while still being in character?