Account Wide Titles ruin Titles

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I personally was never satisifed by the achievement systems. A lot of people weren't. We just had no choice but to play the way people who prefer character achievement worked.

The character achievement people, at least this one, wasn't either. As I said, it was an uneasy truce.

It wasn't a truce. People who wanted account wide achievements had no achievements that worked the way they wanted it. That some character achievement wanted things to be even more lopsided in their favor doesn't mean that character achievement hasn't reigned supreme as the dominant way the achievement system worked. And after years people gave up hope on this.

A truce implies that people were agreeing with the way things worked, taking silence as consent. It wasn't, it's just when a system in a game works for like 7 years or whatever it is now, nobody expects change and resigns themselves that this is just how it works.

RisenEclipse

So I'm seeing a lot of comments about RPers, and I think I need to correct some mistakes about it. There are TWO types of RPers.

One is the guy that plays a nightblade character, give him titles that match, cp points to match, justifies what they do in the game based on their thief character. They might make a backstory in their head for their character. They might avoid certain dungeons, guilds, or areas, because that's not what their character would do.

Then there is the vastly more numerous RPers who play the game like everyone else. Don't put restrictions on their characters in the game. CP points, npc guilds, ect don't matter but for their PvE or PvP goals. They write backstories for their characters, typically post them on forums. They interact with other characters by posting what their character does in chat in a story writing way. They put a separation between what they do in GAME and what they do in RP. You'll see them in taverns mostly in the overworld posting to each other. Think of it as them each helping to write one big story. The best example I can give is DnD. Enemies fought in RP are invisible enemies created for the story, with many guilds having their own way on fighting them (dice rolls for example).

There can also be a mix of the two. But the second one usually separates what they do in game, from what their character is. So this change wouldn't effect their rp at all. They could be playing a necromancer for the PvE build, but in RP he is a farmer, turned knight after his family was brutally murdered by bandits and seeks other like minded people to help cleanse the land of evil. You might not see very many RPers because once housing came along, most of the RP community decided to do their RP in housing now, or a few taverns in the over world, due to insistent trolling against them when they do decide to come out and rp. But there is a large community, with its own website and directory (its TESO RP if you're interested in looking at it).

spartaxoxo

RisenEclipse wrote: »

So I'm seeing a lot of comments about RPers, and I think I need to correct some mistakes about it. There are TWO types of RPers.

One is the guy that plays a nightblade character, give him titles that match, cp points to match, justifies what they do in the game based on their thief character. They might make a backstory in their head for their character. They might avoid certain dungeons, guilds, or areas, because that's not what their character would do.

Then there is the vastly more numerous RPers who play the game like everyone else. Don't put restrictions on their characters in the game. CP points, npc guilds, ect don't matter but for their PvE or PvP goals. They write backstories for their characters, typically post them on forums. They interact with other characters by posting what their character does in chat in a story writing way. They put a separation between what they do in GAME and what they do in RP. You'll see them in taverns mostly in the overworld posting to each other. Think of it as them each helping to write one big story. The best example I can give is DnD. Enemies fought in RP are invisible enemies created for the story, with many guilds having their own way on fighting them (dice rolls for example).

There can also be a mix of the two. But the second one usually separates what they do in game, from what their character is. So this change wouldn't effect their rp at all. They could be playing a necromancer for the PvE build, but in RP he is a farmer, turned knight after his family was brutally murdered by bandits and seeks other like minded people to help cleanse the land of evil. You might not see very many RPers because once housing came along, most of the RP community decided to do their RP in housing now, or a few taverns in the over world, due to insistent trolling against them when they do decide to come out and rp. But there is a large community, with its own website and directory (its TESO RP if you're interested in looking at it).

I'd argue the ones that come up with a backstory and use titles to make that character work are helped by this change. There's definitely a kind that uses titles to sell a character and always ignores stuff that conflicts with this backstory character.

There's also another type...

They do not write a backstory for their character, but stick to the story of the game. They may or may not ignore any quests based off their choice because they are doing the story the way they think the story ought to unfold, but not in a way that contradicts the game's narrative. If they don't want to ignore a questline, they will come up with stories that justify why their character is doing it. E.g. Someone may say they were brainwashed into joining the Dark Brotherhood but cleansed themselves afterwards on their good character. This daedric taint still haunts them but they have sworn never to join up with them again. Others would skip that quest altogether.

Regardless if they skip or not however, they have a sense of who this character is, and roleplay choices consistently. For example they'll try to only pick the most "good" or "evil" option every time such a choice is present.

They view their character as a collaboration between the developers and themselves, and try to live up to the hype of the potential the devs have created. Thus they become very concerned with things like achievements, even going as far to do activities that they dislike because that is what their character would do and this is their achievement for it.

That type is most definitely the kind hurt by this change, as the ones that use achievement hunting to allow themselves to embody the character that zos created rather than creating a largely independent character have achievement hunting as an essential part of their roleplay.

xaraan

N00BxV1 wrote: »

Make the achievements and titles gilded for the characters that have earned them:

- Character_A: "World's Best Player" (earned on another character, not gilded)
- Character_B: "World's Best Player" (earned on this character, gilded)

This is probably the best idea I've seen on this problem.

Making character earned titles gold and shared ones silver or something like that. Gives title availability to all characters, but still gives those who have worked hard to earn it on every character something to show for it.

spartaxoxo

xaraan wrote: »

N00BxV1 wrote: »

Make the achievements and titles gilded for the characters that have earned them:

- Character_A: "World's Best Player" (earned on another character, not gilded)
- Character_B: "World's Best Player" (earned on this character, gilded)

This is probably the best idea I've seen on this problem.

Making character earned titles gold and shared ones silver or something like that. Gives title availability to all characters, but still gives those who have worked hard to earn it on every character something to show for it.

That just allows people to easily gatekeep others through a Scarlet Letter. I think having something like earned on --/---/-- on your achievement list so that you can still track your individual achievements is better.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

tmbrinks wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Participation trophy? A player earns those titles. Your character isn't real. They didn't earn anything. Buying a carry is a participation trophy. Wearing a title that YOU earned is just using your cosmetics that YOU earned as you see fit.

It's not just a cosmetic if a title I earned easily on my Stam DK is unobtainable on my magsorc (for now). But if I learn the build and become good enough to get the achievement with that character, there's a personal satisfaction that I earned it, not just selected from a dropdown menu.

Your personally been more satisifed doesn't mean it's a participation trophy. That title became avaialble because someone earned it and it's just insulting to compare it to something that is given automatically, devalues that the person earned it. I actually understand why you get more personal satisfaction out of earning it a 2nd time but it don't negate this is earning again, not something unearned period. IMO

What is sad to me is that all of these diverse, sometimes mutually exclusive, concepts sort of co-existed in an uneasy truce until Update 33.

Yup.

Previously you had,
Skins account wide so you could show off those dungeon/trial achievements on any character.
Momentos/Mounts/Etc account wide so you show off those on any character
Style Pages being account wide, so you could learn a motif on 1 character and be able to use it to outfit any other.
Gear that is completely sharable between many of your characters (many "other MMOs" use specific gear for specific classes, so it's not shareable!)

You also had,
Individual titles to show on the character that earned it
Individual achievements to show progress for a specific character.
Motifs/Research/Training on each character (the first two tie intricately into master writ drops)

A decent balance of the two, even shifted to the account-wide stuff before.

Now we're shifting the scales even further so they are definitely tipped in one direction, and being told that any compromise we suggest (such as an in-game overall achievement tracker) because we would still like the ability to track achievements on our individual characters isn't a compromise at all, we get accused of having ulterior motives for doing so.

For the tracker to be a compromise it actually need to fill what both party want while both loose a bit of what they want

The tracker would keep the acheivement exactly as it is while not fullfiling what account wide poeple want at all
So no it not a good compromise, not even near it

But thank you for trying tough

tmbrinks

As long as I can track my achievements per character still. Whatever else doesn't matter. We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream. I only hope the language used wasn't accurate and we're not losing most individuality on our characters.

spartaxoxo

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Participation trophy? A player earns those titles. Your character isn't real. They didn't earn anything. Buying a carry is a participation trophy. Wearing a title that YOU earned is just using your cosmetics that YOU earned as you see fit.

It's not just a cosmetic if a title I earned easily on my Stam DK is unobtainable on my magsorc (for now). But if I learn the build and become good enough to get the achievement with that character, there's a personal satisfaction that I earned it, not just selected from a dropdown menu.

Your personally been more satisifed doesn't mean it's a participation trophy. That title became avaialble because someone earned it and it's just insulting to compare it to something that is given automatically, devalues that the person earned it. I actually understand why you get more personal satisfaction out of earning it a 2nd time but it don't negate this is earning again, not something unearned period. IMO

What is sad to me is that all of these diverse, sometimes mutually exclusive, concepts sort of co-existed in an uneasy truce until Update 33.

Yup.

Previously you had,
Skins account wide so you could show off those dungeon/trial achievements on any character.
Momentos/Mounts/Etc account wide so you show off those on any character
Style Pages being account wide, so you could learn a motif on 1 character and be able to use it to outfit any other.
Gear that is completely sharable between many of your characters (many "other MMOs" use specific gear for specific classes, so it's not shareable!)

You also had,
Individual titles to show on the character that earned it
Individual achievements to show progress for a specific character.
Motifs/Research/Training on each character (the first two tie intricately into master writ drops)

A decent balance of the two, even shifted to the account-wide stuff before.

Now we're shifting the scales even further so they are definitely tipped in one direction, and being told that any compromise we suggest (such as an in-game overall achievement tracker) because we would still like the ability to track achievements on our individual characters isn't a compromise at all, we get accused of having ulterior motives for doing so.

For the tracker to be a compromise it actually need to fill what both party want while both loose a bit of what they want

The tracker would keep the acheivement exactly as it is while not fullfiling what account wide poeple want at all
So no it not a good compromise, not even near it

But thank you for trying tough

This exactly.

I think something like a Character Sync would be a better route.

When you login, you are asked if you would like to Sync your character's achievements to your account. If you say "no," then you can go into your options menu to sync at any time. If you say "yes," your character's achievements are added to your account wide achievements list and vice versa. You can also go your options menu and stop sync'ing manually.

This would allow people who prefer Character Specific Achievements to opt-out of account wide achievements. They retain the ability to use character specific achievements for themselves, but lose the ability to discern if someone else is using account wide achievements.

People who want account wide achievements can sync their characters to their accounts anytime they want, but it will take longer to sync them then if the entire system is automated as they will have to manage their settings for every individual character.

spartaxoxo

tmbrinks wrote: »

As long as I can track my achievements per character still. Whatever else doesn't matter.

I did not get that from your post at all, so thanks for sharing that. I didn't see how that could possibly be considered a compromise before, but now I do. I still don't think it's a good one because it ignores most of what we want, but it is better than the "nothing" I thought we were gaining from that suggestion before. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Jaraal

tmbrinks wrote: »

We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.

They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.

Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.

Dalsinthus

Jaraal wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.

They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.

Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.

Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.

CBixby

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.

They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.

Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.

Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.

That will barely account for players who don't follow social media or twitch streamers.

Twitter, Reddit, and the forums don't account for the community as a whole. I'm sure there are people even submitting tickets that the rest of the community doesn't see.

tomofhyrule

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Participation trophy? A player earns those titles. Your character isn't real. They didn't earn anything. Buying a carry is a participation trophy. Wearing a title that YOU earned is just using your cosmetics that YOU earned as you see fit.

It's not just a cosmetic if a title I earned easily on my Stam DK is unobtainable on my magsorc (for now). But if I learn the build and become good enough to get the achievement with that character, there's a personal satisfaction that I earned it, not just selected from a dropdown menu.

Your personally been more satisifed doesn't mean it's a participation trophy. That title became avaialble because someone earned it and it's just insulting to compare it to something that is given automatically, devalues that the person earned it. I actually understand why you get more personal satisfaction out of earning it a 2nd time but it don't negate this is earning again, not something unearned period. IMO

What is sad to me is that all of these diverse, sometimes mutually exclusive, concepts sort of co-existed in an uneasy truce until Update 33.

Yup.

Previously you had,
Skins account wide so you could show off those dungeon/trial achievements on any character.
Momentos/Mounts/Etc account wide so you show off those on any character
Style Pages being account wide, so you could learn a motif on 1 character and be able to use it to outfit any other.
Gear that is completely sharable between many of your characters (many "other MMOs" use specific gear for specific classes, so it's not shareable!)

You also had,
Individual titles to show on the character that earned it
Individual achievements to show progress for a specific character.
Motifs/Research/Training on each character (the first two tie intricately into master writ drops)

A decent balance of the two, even shifted to the account-wide stuff before.

Now we're shifting the scales even further so they are definitely tipped in one direction, and being told that any compromise we suggest (such as an in-game overall achievement tracker) because we would still like the ability to track achievements on our individual characters isn't a compromise at all, we get accused of having ulterior motives for doing so.

For the tracker to be a compromise it actually need to fill what both party want while both loose a bit of what they want

The tracker would keep the acheivement exactly as it is while not fullfiling what account wide poeple want at all
So no it not a good compromise, not even near it

But thank you for trying tough

Forgive me, but I don't see how simply having two tabs, a character-specific one and an account-wide one is not a good compromise here. Those who want to see their achievements by character would still have a system like the current, and those who want achievements to be account-wide would also be able to link them from the other tab and be able to see the total score across all characters.

I pictured something like motifs: each character has their oven knowledge of crafting styles and can read the motif books and get a "XX style learned" notification. However, all characters have access to the motif style at the outfit station once one character learns it. Similarly, I'd love a system where each character has their own list, but once a character earns an achievement for the first time, it also pops as an account-wide one that can be seen (and linked) from any alt.

I know I'd like some things about account-wide (I'm happy that I can give my werewolf RP character the MoS HM title without having to put in all the work to make a side character endgame ready), and I like some thing about specific achievements (I like to look through and see the dates for achievements and I've avoided certain things on my main because they don't fit his character). If we had both tabs, I could get the best of both worlds.

In this way, people who want (or need) to play a specific class for a raid can do so and still pop the achievement on their account. And others can make sure their paladin isn't popping the murderer achievement even if they have a DB alt character.

The only thing that would not be able to happen would be things like Monster trophies being collected on several different characters... which was never made clear in the first place. We won't know until Monday if 'account-wide achievements' does mean "do 10 Jee-Lar dailies a day on 15 characters" or "get at least one character to do 150 days worth of Jee-Lar dailies." And it seems like a lot of people are assuming it will work one way or another - and that may even change some peoples' minds if it's not going to increment the way they think it will. Maybe they even mean that some achievemtns will increment over the whole account (like 'place furnishings in a house') and others by character (as it is now).

...and yes, I'll agree that monster trophies should 100% be account wide since they're incredibly rare RNG drops so it's hard to ensure one character gets all of them. But 'Complete dungeon XYZ' isn't something that needs to increment, and having it character-based actually makes it easy to see which characters haven't done a certain dungeon (read: gotten the skill point) yet.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Participation trophy? A player earns those titles. Your character isn't real. They didn't earn anything. Buying a carry is a participation trophy. Wearing a title that YOU earned is just using your cosmetics that YOU earned as you see fit.

It's not just a cosmetic if a title I earned easily on my Stam DK is unobtainable on my magsorc (for now). But if I learn the build and become good enough to get the achievement with that character, there's a personal satisfaction that I earned it, not just selected from a dropdown menu.

Your personally been more satisifed doesn't mean it's a participation trophy. That title became avaialble because someone earned it and it's just insulting to compare it to something that is given automatically, devalues that the person earned it. I actually understand why you get more personal satisfaction out of earning it a 2nd time but it don't negate this is earning again, not something unearned period. IMO

What is sad to me is that all of these diverse, sometimes mutually exclusive, concepts sort of co-existed in an uneasy truce until Update 33.

Yup.

Previously you had,
Skins account wide so you could show off those dungeon/trial achievements on any character.
Momentos/Mounts/Etc account wide so you show off those on any character
Style Pages being account wide, so you could learn a motif on 1 character and be able to use it to outfit any other.
Gear that is completely sharable between many of your characters (many "other MMOs" use specific gear for specific classes, so it's not shareable!)

You also had,
Individual titles to show on the character that earned it
Individual achievements to show progress for a specific character.
Motifs/Research/Training on each character (the first two tie intricately into master writ drops)

A decent balance of the two, even shifted to the account-wide stuff before.

Now we're shifting the scales even further so they are definitely tipped in one direction, and being told that any compromise we suggest (such as an in-game overall achievement tracker) because we would still like the ability to track achievements on our individual characters isn't a compromise at all, we get accused of having ulterior motives for doing so.

For the tracker to be a compromise it actually need to fill what both party want while both loose a bit of what they want

The tracker would keep the acheivement exactly as it is while not fullfiling what account wide poeple want at all
So no it not a good compromise, not even near it

But thank you for trying tough

Forgive me, but I don't see how simply having two tabs, a character-specific one and an account-wide one is not a good compromise here. Those who want to see their achievements by character would still have a system like the current, and those who want achievements to be account-wide would also be able to link them from the other tab and be able to see the total score across all characters.

I pictured something like motifs: each character has their oven knowledge of crafting styles and can read the motif books and get a "XX style learned" notification. However, all characters have access to the motif style at the outfit station once one character learns it. Similarly, I'd love a system where each character has their own list, but once a character earns an achievement for the first time, it also pops as an account-wide one that can be seen (and linked) from any alt.

I know I'd like some things about account-wide (I'm happy that I can give my werewolf RP character the MoS HM title without having to put in all the work to make a side character endgame ready), and I like some thing about specific achievements (I like to look through and see the dates for achievements and I've avoided certain things on my main because they don't fit his character). If we had both tabs, I could get the best of both worlds.

In this way, people who want (or need) to play a specific class for a raid can do so and still pop the achievement on their account. And others can make sure their paladin isn't popping the murderer achievement even if they have a DB alt character.

The only thing that would not be able to happen would be things like Monster trophies being collected on several different characters... which was never made clear in the first place. We won't know until Monday if 'account-wide achievements' does mean "do 10 Jee-Lar dailies a day on 15 characters" or "get at least one character to do 150 days worth of Jee-Lar dailies." And it seems like a lot of people are assuming it will work one way or another - and that may even change some peoples' minds if it's not going to increment the way they think it will. Maybe they even mean that some achievemtns will increment over the whole account (like 'place furnishings in a house') and others by character (as it is now).

...and yes, I'll agree that monster trophies should 100% be account wide since they're incredibly rare RNG drops so it's hard to ensure one character gets all of them. But 'Complete dungeon XYZ' isn't something that needs to increment, and having it character-based actually makes it easy to see which characters haven't done a certain dungeon (read: gotten the skill point) yet.

Being abe to see and link them is completly different to having them unlock

Ankahet

karekiz wrote: »

This new system ruins character development. How can we trust people know what they are doing now?

It doesn't ruin character development at all, a title does nothing for character development so that's a pretty weak argument.

You can never really be sure anyone knows what they are doing with or without titles due to paid carries, so, again, not a strong argument.

tomofhyrule

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Participation trophy? A player earns those titles. Your character isn't real. They didn't earn anything. Buying a carry is a participation trophy. Wearing a title that YOU earned is just using your cosmetics that YOU earned as you see fit.

It's not just a cosmetic if a title I earned easily on my Stam DK is unobtainable on my magsorc (for now). But if I learn the build and become good enough to get the achievement with that character, there's a personal satisfaction that I earned it, not just selected from a dropdown menu.

Your personally been more satisifed doesn't mean it's a participation trophy. That title became avaialble because someone earned it and it's just insulting to compare it to something that is given automatically, devalues that the person earned it. I actually understand why you get more personal satisfaction out of earning it a 2nd time but it don't negate this is earning again, not something unearned period. IMO

What is sad to me is that all of these diverse, sometimes mutually exclusive, concepts sort of co-existed in an uneasy truce until Update 33.

Yup.

Previously you had,
Skins account wide so you could show off those dungeon/trial achievements on any character.
Momentos/Mounts/Etc account wide so you show off those on any character
Style Pages being account wide, so you could learn a motif on 1 character and be able to use it to outfit any other.
Gear that is completely sharable between many of your characters (many "other MMOs" use specific gear for specific classes, so it's not shareable!)

You also had,
Individual titles to show on the character that earned it
Individual achievements to show progress for a specific character.
Motifs/Research/Training on each character (the first two tie intricately into master writ drops)

A decent balance of the two, even shifted to the account-wide stuff before.

Now we're shifting the scales even further so they are definitely tipped in one direction, and being told that any compromise we suggest (such as an in-game overall achievement tracker) because we would still like the ability to track achievements on our individual characters isn't a compromise at all, we get accused of having ulterior motives for doing so.

For the tracker to be a compromise it actually need to fill what both party want while both loose a bit of what they want

The tracker would keep the acheivement exactly as it is while not fullfiling what account wide poeple want at all
So no it not a good compromise, not even near it

But thank you for trying tough

Forgive me, but I don't see how simply having two tabs, a character-specific one and an account-wide one is not a good compromise here. Those who want to see their achievements by character would still have a system like the current, and those who want achievements to be account-wide would also be able to link them from the other tab and be able to see the total score across all characters.

I pictured something like motifs: each character has their oven knowledge of crafting styles and can read the motif books and get a "XX style learned" notification. However, all characters have access to the motif style at the outfit station once one character learns it. Similarly, I'd love a system where each character has their own list, but once a character earns an achievement for the first time, it also pops as an account-wide one that can be seen (and linked) from any alt.

I know I'd like some things about account-wide (I'm happy that I can give my werewolf RP character the MoS HM title without having to put in all the work to make a side character endgame ready), and I like some thing about specific achievements (I like to look through and see the dates for achievements and I've avoided certain things on my main because they don't fit his character). If we had both tabs, I could get the best of both worlds.

In this way, people who want (or need) to play a specific class for a raid can do so and still pop the achievement on their account. And others can make sure their paladin isn't popping the murderer achievement even if they have a DB alt character.

The only thing that would not be able to happen would be things like Monster trophies being collected on several different characters... which was never made clear in the first place. We won't know until Monday if 'account-wide achievements' does mean "do 10 Jee-Lar dailies a day on 15 characters" or "get at least one character to do 150 days worth of Jee-Lar dailies." And it seems like a lot of people are assuming it will work one way or another - and that may even change some peoples' minds if it's not going to increment the way they think it will. Maybe they even mean that some achievemtns will increment over the whole account (like 'place furnishings in a house') and others by character (as it is now).

...and yes, I'll agree that monster trophies should 100% be account wide since they're incredibly rare RNG drops so it's hard to ensure one character gets all of them. But 'Complete dungeon XYZ' isn't something that needs to increment, and having it character-based actually makes it easy to see which characters haven't done a certain dungeon (read: gotten the skill point) yet.

Being abe to see and link them is completly different to having them unlock

...but... that's what this hybrid system allows...?

For example: what if there were a system where we had two characters and five achievements worth 20 points apiece. Let's assume that character 1 has achieves A, B, and C, and character 2 has A and D.

In the current system, on the achievement page for Character 1, we see:

• Score: 60 points
• Achievements: A, B, C

In this hybrid model, the achievement page would have 'Character' and 'Account,' much like how looking at currency in the inventory has 'Character' (gold, writ vouchers, etc.) and 'Account' (Crowns, gems, etc.)
So we'd see on the character tab:

• Score: 60 points
• Achievements: A, B, C

And on the account tab:

• Score: 80 points
• Achievements: A, B, C, D

And it could even allow you to hover and see which characters earned which achievement or link it in chat or whatever. Heck, make the 'account' the default tab and you have to click over to the character tab, that's great too.

And for character 2's character tab:

• Score: 40 points
• Achievements: A, D

And on the account tab:

• Score: 80 points
• Achievements: A, B, C, D

Now let's assume that I play character 2 and get achievement B. It pops up like normal and I look at my achievement page. On character 2's character tab:

• Score: 60 points
• Achievements: A, B, D

And on the account tab:

• Score: 80 points
• Achievements: A, B, C, D

And then I get achievement E on character 2. Again, it pops up as before and I now see on the character tab:

• Score: 80 points
• Achievements: A, B, D, E

And on the account tab:

• Score: 100 points
• Achievements: A, B, C, D, E

And if I go back to character 1, the character tab will show:

• Score: 60 points
• Achievements: A, B, C

And on the account tab:

• Score: 100 points
• Achievements: A, B, C, D, E

In any case, you've now got 100/100 achievement points on your account across both characters. Both got achievements A, B, and D; only character 1 got C; and only character 2 got E. You got all five achievements and they all popped to give you the full score, so it doesn't matter which character you got them with. But we can go in on each character and see what date they got theirs, and which individual ones they don't have. Anyone who likes to go achievement-hunting with alts can still feel like they're making progress unlocking achievements even if another character already has them.

So overall, I've got a system that allows me to see each individual character achievement and the achievements over the whole account. I can earn achievements on any character and it'll go to the account, but it also will show on a specific character. People who want to get an overview of their entire account progress get to do so and unlock anything on any character. People who want to keep characters separate have the ability to play for or avoid certain achievements on those characters.

I'm sorry, I'm just really trying to understand how unlocking the achievements but just keeping the character-specific data viewable is not the same as unlocking the achievements. Of course, it's a moot point in the first place since this system is coming to PTS on Monday so it's unlikely that they'd change it, so we may just need to see what's in store, but I would prefer if they add something that it only adds functionality (like the ability to collect achievement points across all characters and use titles like any other cosmetic) without removing any functionality (like the ability to see a history of what a single character has done)

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Love account wide achievements. This make me really happy.

Do not like account wide titles. Leave something for your individual character to earn. I know a fair amount of people that chase trifectas and that sort of thing on multiple toons. I am worried if they lose incentive, it hurts the end game community as a whole. 1-2 experienced players are really nice in a trifecta group with mostly first timers.

tomofhyrule

Again, I'll point out that we still have no clue if 'Account-wide' achievements means it increments over the whole account or only awards points over the whole account. We do know that there will still be some character-specific things, like the rune translations they talked about.

But does this mean that Anchor Devastator will credit every dolmen you destroy on every character? Or will it only ping when any one character gets to 250? Or we could get the worst of both worlds - it only pings when one character gets 250, but then it doesn't even have the courtesy to tell you who it was and when.

I know I wouldn't mind some achievements account-incrementing, namely those monster trophies. Those are totally RNG, it's not even like a grind for 30 daily quests where you have the end in sight. The housing- and champion-achievements are also basically account bound already, all you need to do is log onto an alt and you get it. But there are other achievements (like the dungeon or exploration ones) that I'd prefer to be character bound. I know there are a lot of endgame players who find fun in getting achievements on alts, and this is basically leaving them with nothing left to do.

And if they wanted to have an 'account' set of achievements, they could even do that: 'Get Godslayer with each class,' for example. They did something like that for the Frostvault HM where you have to run it as a tank/DPS/healer, and with account achieves they could do it along classes.

So there is a lot they could add without taking anything away from the people who want to see character-specific achievements. And I doubt there's more than 5 players who think that character-specific Monster trophies is the best way to do that.

And evidently I'm in the titles thread, so re: titles - who cares. I always saw titles as just another cosmetic like costumes and skins, so I'm all for making those account wide. I know very few people who judge others based on their titles (most don't even know what title goes with what), and many of the elite players I know don't even use flashy titles (I have a guildie who got to CP3600 already and they take the standard 'Lord' from housing, and I know another guildie who's got all dungeon trifectas and a bunch of trial trifectas who sticks 'Explorer' on every character). And even if I saw a Lv.3 Godslayer, I'd know that that person at least did get through vSS trifecta on some character so props to them.
...as long as they give us a better way to search through and find them to put on...

Wolfshead

personally, I like the idea I have to play many MMOs in my days some of them have everything account wide and I honestly don't see the problem with it.

I don't want to do the same grinding over and over again to get the same title on all my char we already have account-wide thing already so what is the problem.

If I see someone with titles it just means they made with account and should be proud so what the did made with there char on who care.

IronWooshu

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

We've already "lost" once they made this decision, as they aren't going to go back on something they announced on stream.

They've gone back on plenty of announced and implemented stuff before (Two person mounts, performance improvements, cross healing, Dark Convergence fixes, etc). It's not a 100% done deal until it makes it to the live servers. Hopefully they will come to their senses and take a closer look at how this affects the player base overall.

Like was mentioned before, all ZOS ever heard was the complaining about "why aren't achievements account based." They never heard from the people who were doing fine with the game as it was originally intended, because there was never an official threat to turn the system upside down, until recently. Now those people are speaking up.

Contrary to this thread, the polls that people like Nefas have conducted suggest that this is a very popular change, with over 60% of respondents fully supportive. Nefas had hundreds of responses over both Twitter and YouTube with nearly identical results.

I don't follow Nefas and had no idea of the poll, im sure there are plenty more like me.

alsonotan0rc

I would very much like to see achievements like the trophy collection ones (Undead Hoarder, I'm looking at you) go to being account-wide credit for picking up a trophy collectible. I can't tell you how many collectibles I've picked up on the wrong character.
Since the trophies were made non-bankable, and the drop rate (or in some cases, mob populations and spawn rate) is absurdly low for some trophies, it's an exercise in frustration to try to get those achievements. Will the new account-wide system address this head-scratcher of a design choice? Or will I be forever short one Crypt Jar on the right character?

Jazraena

spartaxoxo wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

So I'm seeing a lot of comments about RPers, and I think I need to correct some mistakes about it. There are TWO types of RPers.

One is the guy that plays a nightblade character, give him titles that match, cp points to match, justifies what they do in the game based on their thief character. They might make a backstory in their head for their character. They might avoid certain dungeons, guilds, or areas, because that's not what their character would do.

Then there is the vastly more numerous RPers who play the game like everyone else. Don't put restrictions on their characters in the game. CP points, npc guilds, ect don't matter but for their PvE or PvP goals. They write backstories for their characters, typically post them on forums. They interact with other characters by posting what their character does in chat in a story writing way. They put a separation between what they do in GAME and what they do in RP. You'll see them in taverns mostly in the overworld posting to each other. Think of it as them each helping to write one big story. The best example I can give is DnD. Enemies fought in RP are invisible enemies created for the story, with many guilds having their own way on fighting them (dice rolls for example).

There can also be a mix of the two. But the second one usually separates what they do in game, from what their character is. So this change wouldn't effect their rp at all. They could be playing a necromancer for the PvE build, but in RP he is a farmer, turned knight after his family was brutally murdered by bandits and seeks other like minded people to help cleanse the land of evil. You might not see very many RPers because once housing came along, most of the RP community decided to do their RP in housing now, or a few taverns in the over world, due to insistent trolling against them when they do decide to come out and rp. But there is a large community, with its own website and directory (its TESO RP if you're interested in looking at it).

I'd argue the ones that come up with a backstory and use titles to make that character work are helped by this change. There's definitely a kind that uses titles to sell a character and always ignores stuff that conflicts with this backstory character.

There's also another type...

They do not write a backstory for their character, but stick to the story of the game. They may or may not ignore any quests based off their choice because they are doing the story the way they think the story ought to unfold, but not in a way that contradicts the game's narrative. If they don't want to ignore a questline, they will come up with stories that justify why their character is doing it. E.g. Someone may say they were brainwashed into joining the Dark Brotherhood but cleansed themselves afterwards on their good character. This daedric taint still haunts them but they have sworn never to join up with them again. Others would skip that quest altogether.

Regardless if they skip or not however, they have a sense of who this character is, and roleplay choices consistently. For example they'll try to only pick the most "good" or "evil" option every time such a choice is present.

They view their character as a collaboration between the developers and themselves, and try to live up to the hype of the potential the devs have created. Thus they become very concerned with things like achievements, even going as far to do activities that they dislike because that is what their character would do and this is their achievement for it.

That type is most definitely the kind hurt by this change, as the ones that use achievement hunting to allow themselves to embody the character that zos created rather than creating a largely independent character have achievement hunting as an essential part of their roleplay.

Irrespective of which type (or mix of types, really) of roleplayer you are, the very moment an account-wide achievement of something your character never actually did interferes with your roleplaying, it stops being roleplaying because you are breaking the Fourth Wall.

Achievements are a game mechanic that only you, the player but not your character have access to. You can't in-character hunt for achievements by definition. Words have meaning, and this is far away from the meaning of roleplaying. At best, you're playing the game as normal but with a theme, but roleplaying you are not, and it's incredibly tiresome when people hold up the word for so many things it just doesn't apply to.

Roleplayers don't have issues with account-wide achievements aside for their own personal reasons. Stop holding the term up as a shield and be at least honest about why you don't like it.

Brrrofski

RIP to those 18 time Master Anglers.

Our thoughts are with you.

Varana

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It wasn't a truce. People who wanted account wide achievements had no achievements that worked the way they wanted it. That some character achievement wanted things to be even more lopsided in their favor doesn't mean that character achievement hasn't reigned supreme as the dominant way the achievement system worked. And after years people gave up hope on this.

A truce implies that people were agreeing with the way things worked, taking silence as consent. It wasn't, it's just when a system in a game works for like 7 years or whatever it is now, nobody expects change and resigns themselves that this is just how it works.

But they did. Not the achievements themselves but most rewards for achievements already worked account-wide. There is so much backlash to titles (looking at it, a rather minor reward) because that, once achievements are account-wide, that is the only thing that would be character-specific. And even now, you don't see achievements in the game w/o linking them in chat. A title is the only in-game visible part of an achievement that is character-specific. Everything else - mounts, dyes, styles, skins, polymorphs, costumes, ... is already account-wide.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

old_scopie1945

Tandor wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

If you have any questions or concerns about account wide achievements, please let us know. We can circle back with the dev team for feedback and get back to you.

Will it be optional please? Many of us have multiple characters who are played fully through the game as equal individuals, not as a main plus alts. Often they have different approaches and playstyles - for example, my Paladin-style Templar doesn't want to be saddled with my Assassin-style Nightblade's Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood achievements.

There's never overwhelming support for account-wide achievements when they come up for discussion, especially when you consider that those in favour are often against it including titles which they argue should be tied to a character's personal achievements.

How will this be implemented? If, for example, there's an achievement for killing 100 crabs, will they all have to be killed by one character to earn the achievement for all the characters, or if you have 10 characters can they each kill 10 crabs? Or will the achievement now require 1000 crabs to be killed across the account?

This change has been dropped on us with no information at all as to how it will work, but I assume you all know the answers to these sorts of questions if it's going on the PTS next week. It's a massive change that is thrilling some players and devastating others, yet it was casually dropped into the post reveal show as if it was a trivial bit of news. It isn't.

I agree totally. I play this game as an RPG, and for me my characters are all individuals in their own right. The title that they display is one they have earned. EG: all of my characters would never join the Dark Brotherhood and only a few would join the Thieves Guild. It just feels wrong to me, so I had to start an evil character to perform these tasks. Therefore please ZOS when account wide achievements are implemented, please supply the option to turn account wide titles off. I think that more than just a few of us would like this. Otherwise how could we track which titles each character has achieved.

FantasticFreddie

What zos needs to consider, IMHO, is how each change will impact their player numbers.

There is absolutely a population that will play less if this change goes through. I have been gearing up a toon to go chase a trifecta on a different role specifically because I wanted the title on THAT specific toon. I rerolled a pvp toon specifically to go get a dungeon title for her, and I was looking forward doing the same for another pvp toon.
This change has knocked the wind out of my sails. It seems pointless now. I already have those titles. Sure, nothing is stopping me from ignoring the change when it goes through and going anyway, but.... it completely removes my incentive.
On every trial trifecta team I've been on there is at least one person (sometimes it's me!) going for the title on another toon. For some people, getting these trifectas on their alts is what they have left to do in the game, and yes this change will remove their incentive to continue.

Basically, no one is going to play more because of this change, and it seems like a poor choice from a business standpoint imho.

BronzeCaiman

xAKlMB0xSLlCEx wrote: »

Weper wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

It's still the same person doing it.

Finally someone who understands it.
I don't get it why are some people mad about this. Haven't they played other MMOs? In other MMOs titles and achievements are also account-wide. It's like they would say that account-wide skins/pets/mounts are a bad thing "because you earned it with only 1 characters". Sheesh.

I'm personally happy about this update.

For the few people who have everything/most of everything... getting the titles/achievements on multiple toons is the main reason to continue playing.

It's fine for games that have different rewards for endgame, but when titles are pretty much all you get in ESO for endgame achievements, it ruins the fun/replayability for those that have it all.

They have leaderboards for replayability in endgame, if its not for them who is it for, the casuals?

Jaraal

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

What zos needs to consider, IMHO, is how each change will impact their player numbers.

There is absolutely a population that will play less if this change goes through. I have been gearing up a toon to go chase a trifecta on a different role specifically because I wanted the title on THAT specific toon. I rerolled a pvp toon specifically to go get a dungeon title for her, and I was looking forward doing the same for another pvp toon.
This change has knocked the wind out of my sails. It seems pointless now. I already have those titles. Sure, nothing is stopping me from ignoring the change when it goes through and going anyway, but.... it completely removes my incentive.
On every trial trifecta team I've been on there is at least one person (sometimes it's me!) going for the title on another toon. For some people, getting these trifectas on their alts is what they have left to do in the game, and yes this change will remove their incentive to continue.

Basically, no one is going to play more because of this change, and it seems like a poor choice from a business standpoint imho.

Exactly.

Nobody was going to play less if achievements had remained the same as they have been from the beginning. And nobody was going to play more, because if they already had the title/achievement, all they had to do was select if from a dropdown for the character that didn't actually earn it. But the new change will most certainly make some people play less, as it removes the motivation to grind for the same achievement for multiple characters.

Curious business strategy, indeed.

old_scopie1945

Hamiltonmath wrote: »

Theros wrote: »

Skyshards will be acount shared?
Mages guild?
Fighters guild?
Psijic Order?
Thiefs guild?

None of those will

Not when they can be sold in the Crown Store.

Lady_Galadhiel

I actually got a question, what stuff or achievements/titles are excluded from it?
I remember Gina said Skyshards, Mages Guild and Fighters Guild.
What else was it?