PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Champion Point System

Ancalag

I was waiting for this pts update with impatience and when I read the patch notes I was a little disappointed. Your going in the right way, but your changes are too reserved about the vertical progression and at the same time you nerf the global power even if everyone complaining about the fact there is already a great gap with the CP1.0 system.

Let's go back to the base of what you (developers ) and us (players) are looking for in the CP2.0 system :

- More horizontal gameplay. This is the main point of this new system, the creation of active stars and the limitation of 4 slots per constellation is a really good way to achieve that. With a standardization at 50cp, it's easy to have a real progression and swap fast abilities. I thing the cost could be 25cp for weaker (or less useful) stars and 100cp for the strongest, but no other weird cost if we want to keep it as friendly-user as possible.

- Limited vertical gameplay. This part is the more problematic one actually. You first said that the vertical gameplay ends at cp1200, but in the first version of the CP2.0 it was at cp2640 in Warfare and cp3414 in Fitness. In the last version we reach the power cap at cp1890 in Warfare and cp2361 in Fitness, it's way better but not enough to pretend to be around cp1200. For that you have to really reduce the cost of passives stars and/or reduce their number.
Because my post will be too long, I created a new discussion with the details of all the star's modifications I suggest :
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561480/champion-points-2-0-how-to-improve#latest

- Make the changes seamless. This is the harder part to achieved. Veteran players want to be able to continue to run all the vet trials, this means you will have to reduce the difficulty because you nerfed global power by a lot. New players don't want to have to grind forever to be able to enjoy the complete game, that means the new cp cap should not need more xp than to reach the actual cp810 and make the levelling easier than actually after this point, or we will never see anyone reach cp3600. And finally, the player that just reach cp810 should not have too much grinding to reach the new power cap.


I really thing cp1200 is not a too high cap and enough high to have a good vertical progression, but you have to make it true !

Myrddin1357

It's not even live and I already hate meticulous disassembly! Things like treasure hunter are particularly useful to lower level (under CP400) players in farming gear. The new system is going is to lock these away from the players that need them the most.

Farming gearing is already annoying in this game. It's doesn't help anyone to make the process harder.

Overall the new system is definitely promising but some significant tweaks should be considered so players don't feel like they are much worse off.

silvereyes

Ancalag wrote: »

You first said that the vertical gameplay ends at cp1200, but in the first version of the CP2.0 it was at cp2640 in Warfare and cp3414 in Fitness. In the last version we reach the power cap at cp1890 in Warfare and cp2361 in Fitness, it's way better but not enough to pretend to be around cp1200. For that you have to really reduce the cost of passives stars and/or reduce their number.

Ancalag wrote: »

I really thing [sic] cp1200 is not a too high cap and enough high to have a good vertical progression, but you have to make it true !

QFT

silvereyes

Myrddin1357 wrote: »

It's not even live and I already hate meticulous disassembly! Things like treasure hunter are particularly useful to lower level (under CP400) players in farming gear. The new system is going is to lock these away from the players that need them the most.

Meticulous Disassembly doesn't lock away Treasure Hunter, but you aren't the first person to think that it does. It really needs to be moved out of the middle, and the lines between stars on the right and left need to be made brighter.

Start on the right and unlock:

• Breakfall
• Wanderer
• Steadfast Enchantment
• Treasure Hunter

Going that route, it unlocks at or around CP 375. Not as good as CP 225 on live, but not awful.

Myrddin1357

silvereyes wrote: »

Myrddin1357 wrote: »

It's not even live and I already hate meticulous disassembly! Things like treasure hunter are particularly useful to lower level (under CP400) players in farming gear. The new system is going is to lock these away from the players that need them the most.

Meticulous Disassembly doesn't lock away Treasure Hunter, but you aren't the first person to think that it does. It really needs to be moved out of the middle, and the lines between stars on the right and left need to be made brighter.

Start on the right and unlock:

• Breakfall
• Wanderer
• Steadfast Enchantment
• Treasure Hunter

Going that route, it unlocks at or around CP 375. Not as good as CP 225 on live, but not awful.

Thanks! That is good to hear. 375 is not bad at all. I was thinking it will CP600+.

The UI could be a little clearer. I was struggling to even identify which stars were passive and which were active. There didn't seem to any obvious visual cue. Tooltip did not indicate it either.

silvereyes

Myrddin1357 wrote: »

The UI could be a little clearer. I was struggling to even identify which stars were passive and which were active. There didn't seem to any obvious visual cue. Tooltip did not indicate it either.

The difference is very subtle. Passives have a yellowish halo and a + shaped starburst. Actives have a halo the color of their constellation (green, blue, red).

There is an indicator of active abilities in the tooltip, but they are similarly muted.

PaddyVu

so it make us weaker in CP 2.0, but how about companion? It will increase our dps or tank or heal for us, so cp 2.0 will balance thing? Cp 1.0 = CP 2.0 + companion. But with companion u have a lot of choice so i think CP 2.0 is fine, nothing wrong with it

LtClungeX

I've seen this mentioned before and I believe there has been a poll on it and people are massively in favor for this idea.

If you remove the color coded CP and allow people to dump them in to any constellation, here are the positives.

- Vet players gaining CP don't feel that there is no progression like a capped cp1.0 system
The horizontal progression is the green tree for Vet players.

-New players won't feel they HAVE to grind to 1200-1600 to be competitive as at 500-600 CP they can fully utilize the Blue tree to have the same DPS and healing, the red tree for tankyness, maybe they would need slightly more but Its a hell of alot less daunting than 1200-1600.

-Newer players and won't be shunned by Vet players for things like trials or even new dungeons for not having 1000-1600Cp.

-Your newer dungeons will be more accessible to newer players at an earlier stage also, so money for you right?

-Solo, casual, roll players will be able to enjoy the entirety of the green tree first.

- Theoretically you're keeping the power creep at the 810cp cap but you've then added a load of horizontal progression by removing the color coded CP's.

It's honestly a win-win and I don't believe you would see any complaining about the new CP system from either end, Infact it would be practically perfect!

1 more thing you really need to buff the overworld Adds, as they are laughably easy and with the buff to lower level players people will just leave when they start, as it will just feel like an easy add killing simulation time sink with no progression at all except skill morphs, until they reach endgame NOT FUN.

LtClungeX

Xebov wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

I would be happy if ZOS will return to the drawing board and delay the Champion System 2.0 until Update 30(June 2021) at the least.
There are far too many issues and 3 weeks isn't enough time to improve the situation.

I think they just have to decide what they want. They created a system that required a moderate to fast leveling speed and they gave it slow to super slow level speed.

They created a system that is half vertical and half horizontal progression.
Naturally players will want to fill their vertical part first. To do this they need ~2.5 -3.0 times the XP they require with the old system. So maxing out the potential takes longer.
The horizontal progression will likely see investment after vertical is complete. At that point however players will need even more XP to use the choice feature of the new system. Most will never reach it at this point.

The main turn down on the system will be the pure time requirement and the feeling that you dont progress unless you farm explicitely and even then it will be slow.

Besides some adjustments to stars what they need to do is this: CP1-CP1800 should take as long as CP1-CP810 currently takes. Thats a reasonable amount of time, especially when considering that enw players have to catch up and that progression inside the stars is now linear instead of diminishing returns. CP1801-CP3600 should take twice as long as CP1-CP1800. This would mean a reasonable amount of work is needed, but there is also progress to make use of the horizontal progression and the choice system.

This is why they should remove the color code to the CP system to be able to fill the vertical part first!!!

Rungar

They really really really should of combined cp and achievement points. You have to take into account that people have been grinding "cp" forever and if for no other reason combining cp points and achievement points gives a new optic with new ways to get the points. That would allow the point gathering in literally any activity be it grinding to housing.

Also take into consideration that new players get achievements at a much faster rate than veteran players, achievement points can be earned at any level ( unlike cp), and it gives the idea of something new. In zos traditional fashion this opens up the game, brings people together and puts a little weight behind all those achievements.

telling people they have ( we know they dont have to) grind to 3600 is the worst optic ever and a huge barrier to new players.

You want to hide that as much as possible. How long have people been asking for universal achievements.

WrathOfInnos

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

ApostateHobo

Universe wrote: »

I would be happy if ZOS will return to the drawing board and delay the Champion System 2.0 until Update 30(June 2021) at the least.
There are far too many issues and 3 weeks isn't enough time to improve the situation.

Agree this definitely needs to be delayed because there's no way they'll be able to fix everything, and take all our feedback into consideration in just 3 weeks.

Also agree with everyone saying we should be allowed to allocate our cp freely instead of being forced to dump it into stars we have no use for. This would help a lot since there's so many stars and so little cp to go around. Would also make sense to make all the green stars passives because most of them are so situational they'll be slotted for 5 minutes then swapped out again. Would make much more sense having 6 blue and 6 red instead of 4 of each, especially since you guys decided to shove so dang much into the blue tree.

Ashtaris

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

I would be happy if ZOS will return to the drawing board and delay the Champion System 2.0 until Update 30(June 2021) at the least.
There are far too many issues and 3 weeks isn't enough time to improve the situation.

Agree this definitely needs to be delayed because there's no way they'll be able to fix everything, and take all our feedback into consideration in just 3 weeks.

Also agree with everyone saying we should be allowed to allocate our cp freely instead of being forced to dump it into stars we have no use for. This would help a lot since there's so many stars and so little cp to go around. Would also make sense to make all the green stars passives because most of them are so situational they'll be slotted for 5 minutes then swapped out again. Would make much more sense having 6 blue and 6 red instead of 4 of each, especially since you guys decided to shove so dang much into the blue tree.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to happen. There is not enough time to just remove the new CP 2.0 and put the 1.0 version back in it's place. About the only thing they could do is complete delay update 29 until they get it right.

Syrpynt

Looks like I'll stop playing after this next update unless they delay/fix the CP system as it stands now...

it seems only the voices of the hardcore players was heard when making these decisions. Casuals/N00bies can pound sand.

Ashfordd

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

I would be happy if ZOS will return to the drawing board and delay the Champion System 2.0 until Update 30(June 2021) at the least.
There are far too many issues and 3 weeks isn't enough time to improve the situation.

Agree this definitely needs to be delayed because there's no way they'll be able to fix everything, and take all our feedback into consideration in just 3 weeks.

Also agree with everyone saying we should be allowed to allocate our cp freely instead of being forced to dump it into stars we have no use for. This would help a lot since there's so many stars and so little cp to go around. Would also make sense to make all the green stars passives because most of them are so situational they'll be slotted for 5 minutes then swapped out again. Would make much more sense having 6 blue and 6 red instead of 4 of each, especially since you guys decided to shove so dang much into the blue tree.

Another option, which would keep the number of slottable skills at 12 and still add more flexibility into possible builds, is to reduce the number of slots per constellation to three and to add three generic slots, which could be filled by perks from any constellation. Or if all craft perks were made passives, still having 4+4+4(generic) slots available would be better than having 6+6 slots for the two remaining constellations.

And indeed, possibility to allocate all our CPs freely would be most appreciated!

rrimöykk

Syrpynt wrote: »

Looks like I'll stop playing after this next update unless they delay/fix the CP system as it stands now...

it seems only the voices of the hardcore players was heard when making these decisions. Casuals/N00bies can pound sand.

If you saw the Discord channels where hardcore players (both pve and pvp) discuss these changes, you'd be surprised how wrong your reply is.

No one, literally no one, wants to grind thousands of cps and most of the feedback those pro players have to devs got totally ignored as usual.

Xebov

Syrpynt wrote: »

Looks like I'll stop playing after this next update unless they delay/fix the CP system as it stands now...

it seems only the voices of the hardcore players was heard when making these decisions. Casuals/N00bies can pound sand.

I have the feeling that what they planned is not fitting together with the reality.
From the looks of it they planned that players go vertically and horizontally at the same time, improving their character and taking sidegrades to switch around, both with only the first levels and then progress over time.
The reality however is that players want to reach the vertical progression cap first which turns the horizontal part useless as noone can reach it.

Ashtaris wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

I would be happy if ZOS will return to the drawing board and delay the Champion System 2.0 until Update 30(June 2021) at the least.
There are far too many issues and 3 weeks isn't enough time to improve the situation.

Agree this definitely needs to be delayed because there's no way they'll be able to fix everything, and take all our feedback into consideration in just 3 weeks.

Also agree with everyone saying we should be allowed to allocate our cp freely instead of being forced to dump it into stars we have no use for. This would help a lot since there's so many stars and so little cp to go around. Would also make sense to make all the green stars passives because most of them are so situational they'll be slotted for 5 minutes then swapped out again. Would make much more sense having 6 blue and 6 red instead of 4 of each, especially since you guys decided to shove so dang much into the blue tree.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to happen. There is not enough time to just remove the new CP 2.0 and put the 1.0 version back in it's place. About the only thing they could do is complete delay update 29 until they get it right.

I think it would be good enought for now to dump the 1.5x XP penalty and reduce the required XP per CP by 50-75% so players can reach the cap in a reasonable amount of time. Given that they plan to add more stars in the future (and can raise the cap) this is the best they can do.

Hotdog_23

Do we have any hope of adding multiple slotted bars we can setup and able to name so if will be easier for console players?

I am sure PC will fix this deficiency with add-ons but console once again getting half-baked idea.

Please please give us multiple bars we can set up.

Stay safe


PS. While I am at it when are we getting skills timers for the skill bars and improved buff timers.

Starlight_Whisper

Standard set vs new healing passive that purges needs balance. Stender needs something more now

Nordic__Knights

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

when doing an bow bow build under new system your locked out of slots for everything with only having 4 slots, so i dont see how adding in another would help much but i do see its needed and its been over locked for some builds as badly as the 4 slots per tree should have open slots for 12 so that pvp can x out all gree tree and pve could x out all red tree if not tank and we would still be limited on power, heal, and tankieness . making us use choice dd , healer , tank , pve, pvp , bgs, cp, none cp, but not being has able to have all 3 to the point we have now , even making it so we can move 1 sloted skill into each different trees slots it be easy to open an few builds new system is real bad for bow/bow being one thats not OP even under 1.0 system i see no reason it should take an hard hit like it is going to under 2.0 system

Rungar

would it be possible that every 4th point the player can choose the color ( red, green, blue)

so your first point is green, next blue, next red, next player choice, then back to green.

That might give players a little bit of freedom to max out combat ( or whatever they choose) a little bit earlier if they choose, while maintaining the overall idea of the separation and horizontal growth of the different trees.

LtClungeX

Rungar wrote: »

would it be possible that every 4th point the player can choose the color ( red, green, blue)

so your first point is green, next blue, next red, next player choice, then back to green.

That might give players a little bit of freedom to max out combat ( or whatever they choose) a little bit earlier if they choose, while maintaining the overall idea of the separation and horizontal growth of the different trees.

good idea!

But totally removing the color code actually gives us and the devs what they wanted from the revised system , horizontal progression.
Locking it at all makes it have a more vertical aspect which isn't their goal or so they say.

Eso will be so much more accessible to newer players this way, yet vets still get progression too, it would be perfect

The_Lex

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

I would be happy if ZOS will return to the drawing board and delay the Champion System 2.0 until Update 30(June 2021) at the least.
There are far too many issues and 3 weeks isn't enough time to improve the situation.

Agree this definitely needs to be delayed because there's no way they'll be able to fix everything, and take all our feedback into consideration in just 3 weeks.

What if I told you that it was never the plan "to fix everything" and certainly not "to take our feedback consideration."

silvereyes

Please consider adding more of a CP boost for more levels. As it is, the “catch up” multiplier ends (CP 1200) before vertical progression even ends (CP 1800-2400).

I understand that it’s desirable to draw out the horizontal progression part of the curve as long as possible to avoid ending players’ sense of reward, but CP 1200 feels too stifling to be the place where we hang out.

Perhaps the boost could be adjusted to taper off? For example, a 4x boost from CP 10-1200, and a 2x boost from CP 1200-2400?

majulook

So to swap out active stars you have to open the CP interface? Does it not have a "favorites" type of settings that allows for quick slots to between a few setups?

Hotdog_23

majulook wrote: »

So to swap out active stars you have to open the CP interface? Does it not have a "favorites" type of settings that allows for quick slots to between a few setups?

Nope, it’s not because we have not been asking for it. Just ignored so far.

Honestly this needs to happen by release. With the old CP system, you got everything passively and it did not matter. Now you must choose and switch out skills. Which is fine but it will limit console players a lot because I am sure the PC community will have add-ons that fix the problem for them.

After all we only have 12 slots and 99 stars of which 60 are slottable skills.

I know I will want different skills slotted for general questing/farming but when either a dungeon or BG pop up in the queue, I am going to have to change my slotted skills to be optimized for said content. Having several bars, I could set up would be super helpful for times like these. It would also be super helpful If we could also name the bars for quicker selecting the bars, we need for said content.

Please ZOS don’t give us another mini game to play in order to play the game. I don’t want to have to go thru all 99 stars to pick only 12 I need every time I change content.

Stay safe and have fun

AmendmentI

Seems cool to actually have a reason to level again. Sounds like this is getting thrown way out of proportion with people thinking they need to be max level or have thousands of cp to have fun again. Which doesn't seem true so far....

Think we need to stop feeling like if we aren't 3600 or max cp then everything will suddenly be impossible or harder on us. Or that the large difference in cp will put us in such a disadvantageous position. If what they've said is true then it doesn't look like itll matter much to have such a high cp. Or maybe stop feeling like we just absolutely have to be at max and how long itll take to get there. Like its impossible to enjoy the game if we aren't at max cp again.

Meiox

AmendmentI wrote: »

Seems cool to actually have a reason to level again. Sounds like this is getting thrown way out of proportion with people thinking they need to be max level or have thousands of cp to have fun again. Which doesn't seem true so far....

Think we need to stop feeling like if we aren't 3600 or max cp then everything will suddenly be impossible or harder on us. Or that the large difference in cp will put us in such a disadvantageous position. If what they've said is true then it doesn't look like itll matter much to have such a high cp. Or maybe stop feeling like we just absolutely have to be at max and how long itll take to get there. Like its impossible to enjoy the game if we aren't at max cp again.

There is a reason, people choose specific races for a class-build, or hunt for gear sets, or use food/drinks/potions. Its allways about to get the best performance.

Now, what do you think is the difference between a 1200cp and a 3600cp toon?

Is it less than
...choosing the 'wrong' race for your class-build?
...not using any drink/food/potion?
...using no gear with a set bonus?
...using purple gear instead of gold?

Xebov

AmendmentI wrote: »

Seems cool to actually have a reason to level again. Sounds like this is getting thrown way out of proportion with people thinking they need to be max level or have thousands of cp to have fun again. Which doesn't seem true so far....

Think we need to stop feeling like if we aren't 3600 or max cp then everything will suddenly be impossible or harder on us. Or that the large difference in cp will put us in such a disadvantageous position. If what they've said is true then it doesn't look like itll matter much to have such a high cp. Or maybe stop feeling like we just absolutely have to be at max and how long itll take to get there. Like its impossible to enjoy the game if we aren't at max cp again.

Iam CP1350 and a Tank. If i dont do group content i need to get some DD stuff because the game itself is very unfriendly for players with a Tank role.
In the old system i can get my tanking relevant things up and still have some points for DD relevant things so i can profit from the tree while iam doing solo arenas or overland.
In the ne system my 1350 points are not enought to get everyting tanking relevant out of the tree. I need another ~200-400 points for this (best guess). In that case iam still missing the DD relevant things which requires me to get another ~800 CP?
Keep in mind that all bonuses from green went into red and part of the red bonuses went into blue. Which means the rule blue is healing and damage and red is defence is no longer true. Green is now completely unrelated to any combat situations.
This means that iam not only loosing out on bonuses for my role that i previsously had, iam also loosing out on bonuses for other contents i previously had entirely and need to farm as much XP as i already did to get where iam now. If i reach that point iam not even able to use the horizontal progression completely, i barely scratch it.

As it is now, we have a system that is build for vertical and horizotnal progression with such a slow leveling speed that many players will never even get close to max CP, let alone playing until they reach the end of vertical progression.

FinrodMacBeorn

Meiox wrote: »

There is a reason, people choose specific races for a class-build, or hunt for gear sets, or use food/drinks/potions. Its allways about to get the best performance.

Now, what do you think is the difference between a 1200cp and a 3600cp toon?

Is it less than
...choosing the 'wrong' race for your class-build?
...not using any drink/food/potion?
...using no gear with a set bonus?
...using purple gear instead of gold?

That's rather easy to answer. You can slot only 4 actives (costing 200 cp alltogether), so that's not the problem. For the blue passives, most cost 40 cp and provide you with one standard set bonus: 1040 mag or stam/ +4% healing / +640 crit (the new standard) etc. There is one exception (preparation, giving you 10% damage reduction from npcs) which in pve seemingly is stronger as I don't know a set with a similar bonus.

So, the difference between the roughly current cap of cp 840 (taking 4 actives, 2 passives) and cp 1560 (taking 4 actives, 8 passives) roughly corresponds to replacing a full set of armour by 5 non-set pieces (I've counted the 5th set bonus as 2 standard bonusses, i.e. 2 passives, here, as it's stronger than a standard bonus).

From cp 1560 onwards, horizontal progression sets more or less in (for dds), as the passives you additionally would choose are useful mainly in specific content: solo arenas pve, score runs, triple achievements, cp-pvp.

Between cp 1200 and cp 3600 (effectively vertical until at 1540 you can afford 8 passive, 4 actives), the difference corresponds to about 3 set bonusses if you are not into the above mentioned activities (where cp 3600 has a few more advantages).