PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Champion Point System

AmendmentI

Meiox wrote: »

AmendmentI wrote: »

Seems cool to actually have a reason to level again. Sounds like this is getting thrown way out of proportion with people thinking they need to be max level or have thousands of cp to have fun again. Which doesn't seem true so far....

Think we need to stop feeling like if we aren't 3600 or max cp then everything will suddenly be impossible or harder on us. Or that the large difference in cp will put us in such a disadvantageous position. If what they've said is true then it doesn't look like itll matter much to have such a high cp. Or maybe stop feeling like we just absolutely have to be at max and how long itll take to get there. Like its impossible to enjoy the game if we aren't at max cp again.

There is a reason, people choose specific races for a class-build, or hunt for gear sets, or use food/drinks/potions. Its allways about to get the best performance.

Now, what do you think is the difference between a 1200cp and a 3600cp toon?

Is it less than
...choosing the 'wrong' race for your class-build?
...not using any drink/food/potion?
...using no gear with a set bonus?
...using purple gear instead of gold?

According to what's been said by zos, the difference between the 2 shouldn't be as large or as exaggerated as many are making it seem like it will be. At least for pve.

Xebov wrote: »

AmendmentI wrote: »

Seems cool to actually have a reason to level again. Sounds like this is getting thrown way out of proportion with people thinking they need to be max level or have thousands of cp to have fun again. Which doesn't seem true so far....

Think we need to stop feeling like if we aren't 3600 or max cp then everything will suddenly be impossible or harder on us. Or that the large difference in cp will put us in such a disadvantageous position. If what they've said is true then it doesn't look like itll matter much to have such a high cp. Or maybe stop feeling like we just absolutely have to be at max and how long itll take to get there. Like its impossible to enjoy the game if we aren't at max cp again.

Iam CP1350 and a Tank. If i dont do group content i need to get some DD stuff because the game itself is very unfriendly for players with a Tank role.
In the old system i can get my tanking relevant things up and still have some points for DD relevant things so i can profit from the tree while iam doing solo arenas or overland.
In the ne system my 1350 points are not enought to get everyting tanking relevant out of the tree. I need another ~200-400 points for this (best guess). In that case iam still missing the DD relevant things which requires me to get another ~800 CP?
Keep in mind that all bonuses from green went into red and part of the red bonuses went into blue. Which means the rule blue is healing and damage and red is defence is no longer true. Green is now completely unrelated to any combat situations.
This means that iam not only loosing out on bonuses for my role that i previsously had, iam also loosing out on bonuses for other contents i previously had entirely and need to farm as much XP as i already did to get where iam now. If i reach that point iam not even able to use the horizontal progression completely, i barely scratch it.

As it is now, we have a system that is build for vertical and horizotnal progression with such a slow leveling speed that many players will never even get close to max CP, let alone playing until they reach the end of vertical progression.

Having to set aside cp in order to do multiple roles at the same time is a choice. I don't think its unreasonable to think you'd need more cp if you wanted to do both a tank and dps job. But according to you the cp required for a tank is potentially 200-400 more. Again, I don't see having to actually bother leveling up as a bad thing. We've been at 810 for around 2 yearsish at this point. I don't see hitting max cp as a goal worth shooting for but something you're just able to hit over the years as you play the game. Not something required.This is all assuming what they said is true. Which is that you won't see much of a difference between someone still in the 1500 range versus someone at the 2500 range.

Overall there aren't enough players at 2000+ cp to suggest that you absolutely need all of that cp in order to play on the same level as them. The feeling that you need to be at max cp or anywhere near it seems to be stopping many from thinking that they'll be able to enjoy the game for a while. So far though that doesn't seem true. 1500 maybe as a rough number. But 2500 or even 3600? Doesn't seem like we'll actually need that. And the few clips of dungeon runs I've seen make it seem fine minus the issues with penetration.

Nordic__Knights

i dont get how others dont see if i can solo ndsa on my magsorc today at 810cp why should i not be able to do it at 1421 once new system goes live ? this is the issue i have the most with this new CP SYSTEM

AlexWaff

Not sure if I have to mention it here or having a post by itself is sufficient, but anyway:
The Craft constellation having slottable skills at all is not nice, would simply be an extremely tedious chore, and ultimately feels bad. We'll either end up with a lot of automatic swap addons that equip the right Craft slottable skills whenever you do a thing (repair armor, harvest a node, fence goods, etc.), or nobody's going to bother using them - in both cases having all of the crafting constellation be passive, and simply not giving it any slottable slots, a way better approach.

All current skills in the crafting constellation are quality of life and mostly things we already get to have for free, permanently. Having to swap between then constantly to use them would all of a sudden would be bad. More so, having all of them active at once doesn't create any kind of "power creep", since they're all affecting different non-cobat things - you'd simply be removing a tedious micromanagement you'd have to do before every node, repair, craft, cupboard looting, etc.

(That is, as opposed to the other 2 combat related constellations, where if you had everything active at once there would be a noticable power creep, as well as removing any interactivity of making a build. That's great as is, maybe with just a little fewer generic "stat increase" slottables that are better off as passives in favour of more interesting ones. The Crafting ones should just all be passive, they're quality of life, not build-related.)

Firstmep

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

Careful % modifiers don't stack additevly, but multiplicatively.
These comparisons can be very misleading if you assume 10% and 10% from different sources equate to a 20% increase.
And this doesn't even account for other % increases outside of cp like berserk, class passives etc.

This also doesnt account for the massive increase we are seeing in base stats(while this doesnt affect sets like selene, relequen etc, its still important).

To see the difference these extra stats provide youd have to use the same charcather on live and pts as benchmark and remove all cps.

I want to do some quick math here to demonstrate:

Now these numbers are made up ofc, but for clarity's sake lets just roll with it.

Lets you on live you have a skills which does 1000 damage, and has a cp star affecting it giving it an additional 25% increased damage.

Again for clarity, we are going to ignore all other modifiers for now, and assume this brings its total damage to 1250. Thats a 25% increase.

Now on pts(again made up number) due to the 1000 extra wpd/spd and extra mag/stam this skill does, lets say 1200 dmg at base without any cp now(not a super far stretch as some skills have very generous scaling and on stamina side we can stack a lot % wpd modifiers).
The cp 2.0 equivalent gives it a 10% boost, bringing its damage to 1320.

A far cry from a huge drop in damage.

As for Thaumathurge not having a counterpart, im assuming this is beacuse they split master at arms to aoe and single target, to force more choices. I know this means that some skills benefit from multiple stars, while some dont, frankly they could just remove thaum then or add back master at arms.

Xebov

AmendmentI wrote: »

Having to set aside cp in order to do multiple roles at the same time is a choice.

Its not a choice, its a workaround. The system supports players in having enought CP to fully have several roles. Its designed around that idea and its advertised with that idea. The only thing that prevents this from happening is the horrendous XP requirement. To get around this you can either budget the CP and gimp yourself or you can shift the points around the tree. Which turns both options into workarounds for bad design choices.

Rungar

Its pretty obvious that the new cp system is superior to the old one in every way.

Xebov wrote: »

AmendmentI wrote: »

Having to set aside cp in order to do multiple roles at the same time is a choice.

Its not a choice, its a workaround. The system supports players in having enought CP to fully have several roles. Its designed around that idea and its advertised with that idea. The only thing that prevents this from happening is the horrendous XP requirement. To get around this you can either budget the CP and gimp yourself or you can shift the points around the tree. Which turns both options into workarounds for bad design choices.

This isn't really an argument. Because of the account nature cp its quite easy to bring up a new dedicated character in a short amount of time. Seems to be more work to keep switching the same guy around all the time.

I would Zos to fulfill their Destiny and merge cp and achievements. Its a perfect synergy with no downsides just like one Tamriel.

for instance vet players now, should they be merged, would see a net increase from what they had while new players (who gain achievements very quickly) would come online much faster than before since they can start accumulating points from level 1 and in more ways than before.

I would wager that most players have between 15-30k achievement points and 600-1200 cp. Then transform it into the other point metric we can have a whole cp achievement section that adds enough achievement points such that you can become combat maxed ( i.e 1500 cp) with experience only though it would not be the most efficient way.

There are a number of other impacts as well.

1) People will put more effort into getting achievements.
2) People will put more effort into diversifying their characters activities since achievements are widespread.
3) Resolves the Achievement "main" problem.
4) Completely changes the scale in players eyes.
5) Achievements are added with every update.

If its impossible to merge all characters because of issues with the database they can still bite the bullet and use the highest achievement character instead and wipe all the others and repaste the highest one. Not ideal but from that point on they have account wide achievements so worth it for most I would guess.

I can understand a database merge like this might be scary for zos but totally worth it if you ask me.

stefj68

no one feel bad that 1/3rd of our champions points we earn goest toward craft passive, which have no impact on our survability / dps?

still think it should be 3 constellation (tanking, dps, and healing/recovery) and a separate champion pools for the crafting perks that they could add all kind of fun stuffs.

with vertical like they did, no way we could be good at tanking, good at healing, or good at dpsing, withouth respeccing everything each time... if they want us to respect, well make us 3 profiles that could be selected when we choose our roles... but otherwise to be able to do all 3 roles we need about 2000k cp, what a hell of a grind...

i think they should delay cp2.0 till update 30.

a lots of great idea, they should have consulted the fans/players before going with such drastic changes

lillybit

Rungar wrote: »

Its pretty obvious that the new cp system is superior to the old one in every way.

Xebov wrote: »

AmendmentI wrote: »

Having to set aside cp in order to do multiple roles at the same time is a choice.

Its not a choice, its a workaround. The system supports players in having enought CP to fully have several roles. Its designed around that idea and its advertised with that idea. The only thing that prevents this from happening is the horrendous XP requirement. To get around this you can either budget the CP and gimp yourself or you can shift the points around the tree. Which turns both options into workarounds for bad design choices.

This isn't really an argument. Because of the account nature cp its quite easy to bring up a new dedicated character in a short amount of time. Seems to be more work to keep switching the same guy around all the time.

I would Zos to fulfill their Destiny and merge cp and achievements. Its a perfect synergy with no downsides just like one Tamriel.

for instance vet players now, should they be merged, would see a net increase from what they had while new players (who gain achievements very quickly) would come online much faster than before since they can start accumulating points from level 1 and in more ways than before.

I would wager that most players have between 15-30k achievement points and 600-1200 cp. Then transform it into the other point metric we can have a whole cp achievement section that adds enough achievement points such that you can become combat maxed ( i.e 1500 cp) with experience only though it would not be the most efficient way.

There are a number of other impacts as well.

1) People will put more effort into getting achievements.
2) People will put more effort into diversifying their characters activities since achievements are widespread.
3) Resolves the Achievement "main" problem.
4) Completely changes the scale in players eyes.
5) Achievements are added with every update.

If its impossible to merge all characters because of issues with the database they can still bite the bullet and use the highest achievement character instead and wipe all the others and repaste the highest one. Not ideal but from that point on they have account wide achievements so worth it for most I would guess.

I can understand a database merge like this might be scary for zos but totally worth it if you ask me.

If I'm understanding you right, you're saying CP shouldn't be earned with XP but achievement points?

I can see a number of problems with that. Primarily it would be horrible for progression. If someone gets the 'easy' achievements done and is still off of optimum CP for the content they want to do, what do they do? It's not a case of 'working harder' if they aren't capable of doing the content at their level and no way of levelling any more to be able to do the content. How would PvP players manage with the tiny percentage of achievements available to them? XP gain is slow enough for them as it is but you want to take even that away.

On the other end of the scale would be the people who constantly create new characters (who as you say gain achievements very quickly) to rush through and gain loads of CP, then delete them - new characters as the new zombie grind!

How would it even work for new players? Currently you don't earn CP until you reach 50 but an achievement is a once only deal. You can't say they don't count before 50 because they can't be redone. Otherwise new players will get to 50 and find because they've done the quest and cleared zones as they've levelled they're permanently locked out of progression.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of achievement points being useful, but straight up linking them to CP gain wouldn't work.

Possibly what would work is if XP only contributed towards blue/red CP gain and level progression (so someone at 200CP would have 100 of each), then your achievements gave you the green points to spend. Actually, I like that idea a lot!

Rungar

That is a neat idea though I didnt think it was fair to force people to do achievements. It has to be done both ways.

I would of made an achievement category called champions legacy. That achievement is where your exp would be tallied up and translated into achievement points( instead of cp). Same as any other achievement except you could get enough there alone to become combat ready ( enough to max out warfare active/passives and a little bit extra aka cp 2000). So instead of getting cp points directly from levels, instead you will get achievement points

The achievement points in turn would yield you the points for the cp system. This way you can earn points for any activity which yields either achievements or experience but your not bound to either one.

Alternately they could start allocating exp for achievements at the proper weight which would give all existing players a good boost when the patch drops and also allow new players to progress much faster than before. That would be a simpler way to do it though achievement consolidation is still needed and would speed up the 1-50 for new characters instead of applying to the cp initially.

all it really does is let you earn points how you want while synergizing your points since for most activities you can do both things at the same time especially if your a new player. In the same theme as play how you want. It would help conceal the grind a little bit and incentivize a more general playstyle among players.

many vet players would get an instant boost as well as their contributions into the cp came online which i imagine would be well received.

A bonus objective would be to merge achievements on characters since maybe a million people have asked for that.

Ringod123

CP Conversion

First thing's first CP simply HAS to be converted across to the new system based on total XP earned given that CP points will require less XP going forward.
Contrary to some opinions this is indeed a different scenario to the Arena Weapons debacle, in that case nothing was taken away from the players, their weapons just weren't upgraded to reflect what they had already achieved.
The only alternative to a total XP earned conversion however is a straight CP conversion, which would obviously have to mean players have their total XP earned lowered in the new system to the new value that awards the same CP as we have in the current system (as it will take less XP per CP level in the new system).
Removing XP we have already earned and forcing us to earn it again is simply unacceptable in my opinion and the total XP conversion with lower XP per level is already enough to help new players catch up quicker.
If it does end up being a 1 to 1 CP conversion with anything like the current "soft cap" necessary to not be at a disadvantage in my home Cyro campaign it'll be the last straw for me after years of declining performance and a year of performance which yielded 0 performance gains.


Bastardized Colour Identities

Ask anyone who has played ESO for even a couple of hours what the Colours Red, Blue and Green symbolize to them in terms of game lore/mechanics. I'm pretty sure you will get very similar answers from the vast majority of people with things along the lines of:

Red:
Health
Health regen
Physical Resistances
Fire damage
Bleed damage
Blocking
Heavy Armor

Green:
Stamina
Stamina regen
Posion/Disease resistances
Poison/disease damage
sprinting
roll dodging
Medium Armor

Blue:
Magicka
Magicka regen
Ice/Lightning/magicka resistances
ice/lightning/magicka damage
Light Armor

Even as recently as the new Vateshran Hollows with the 3 different wings these indentities are re-enforced, but with this new CP system, that's all out of the window in order to force heavy restrictions on us under the guise of "player choice". Now renamed to Warfare, Fitness and Craft, without seeing a picture I would have no clue which colour belongs to which constellation as none of the new names or "themes" bare any resemblance to the original color indentities the game has reinforced for the past 7-8 years.

On top of this I have to say I feel of the CP constellations are now cluttered and overwhelming as well as overly confusing considering the stars don't even have the names of their abilities like in the current system, leading to a lot of needless searching.


Player Anti-Choice

It seems the reason the 3 colours have been bastardized into this new format is to force certain things into the same constellations that would have previously been in completely different colours. Almost all elements of Damage dealing and damage mitigation (penetration, crit, extra damage, max stam, max magicka, tons of damage reduction buffs, healing buffs etc etc)have been grouped together under a single constellation meaning you now have 1/3rd of the of the CP to spend on these buffs than you do in the current system where they are all spread out over the 3 colours, why? This obviously means that end-game content players such as PvP'ers and Hardcore Trial runners etc have been left with 1/3rd of their CP being useless, with the green constellation adding absolutely nothing to those types of players.

Secondly, going from a system where we can put points into any star as long as we have a free point in that colour, to a system that forces you to follow "paths" by putting points into stuff you do not want or even need in order to get the stuff you do, is not giving us MORE choice, it's the exact opposite, you are completely stifling diversity and forcing a meta of having to follow the least expensive paths to get the stuff that's of use, this obviously also means we have less points available to put into the stuff we want until we have played what, 10K+ hours now to get to the current PTS soft cap of 1950-2100? It will also obviously mean people now have to gain many CP levels before seeing any kind of useful gain in some situations, exacerbated by earning a single point for any given colour only every 3rd CP level.

Then there is the whole 12 slot champion bar, I can see the reason behind it, it should help with performance by limiting our buffs, but then why are there so many passives, some that have the exact same ability that a slottable has? There are still almost, if not the same amount of buffs available to a player through CP1.0 as there is CP2.0 when taking passives and slottables into account, so where will the performance gain come from?

Considering your design spec was to make choices matter while improving performance and lowering Vertical progression, i'd have to say so far it's a pretty big fail as you have hugely restricted us compared to what we already had and taken a lot of our choices away from us as well as clearly increasing vertical progression. If you wanted to promote player choice and NOT make 1/3rd of a lot of characters CP useless then you need to remove the colour restrictions on earned CP so it can be spent in any constellation, and allow ANY 12 slottables to be slotted, not limit it to 4 of each colour, after all, surely a PvP specced char should be dealing more damage than a crafter/gatherer, why shouldn't they be able to slot more combat based buffs and the gatherer more crafting buffs, THAT would be promoting choice and sideways progression, as for example, at CP1000 your PvP char has already maxed out his PvP buffs instead of needing CP2400 just to get the 700 blue CP needed to do so.





Increased Vertical Progression???

Can you please explain how needing double, if not triple the amount of CP to be able to compete with another person in CP PvP on an equal footing in CP2.0 compared to CP1.0 achieves lowered vertical progression, as I now need at least 1950-2100CP to be on an equal footing with someone in CP PvP compared to the previous hard cap of 810 (it still takes 650-700CP just in the blue constellation to max out the useful passives and have 4 slottables). You have literally widened the gap between low CP and High CP by miles in terms of playtime and XP needed. Even with the changes made in the last PTS patch, the bar for Vertical progression is literally WAY higher than in the previous system. With a remit of limiting/lowering vertical progression, how on earth have you so blatantly achieved the opposite?

Overall it honestly feels like we're missing a part of the plan here, we need the CP conversion confirmed on how it's going to work, because as it stands if 810CP doesn't convert across to at least 1700-2000CP in the new system you guys have massively messed up, unless more huge changes get made before this goes live.

WrathOfInnos

Firstmep wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

Careful % modifiers don't stack additevly, but multiplicatively.
These comparisons can be very misleading if you assume 10% and 10% from different sources equate to a 20% increase.
And this doesn't even account for other % increases outside of cp like berserk, class passives etc.

This also doesnt account for the massive increase we are seeing in base stats(while this doesnt affect sets like selene, relequen etc, its still important).

To see the difference these extra stats provide youd have to use the same charcather on live and pts as benchmark and remove all cps.

I want to do some quick math here to demonstrate:

Now these numbers are made up ofc, but for clarity's sake lets just roll with it.

Lets you on live you have a skills which does 1000 damage, and has a cp star affecting it giving it an additional 25% increased damage.

Again for clarity, we are going to ignore all other modifiers for now, and assume this brings its total damage to 1250. Thats a 25% increase.

Now on pts(again made up number) due to the 1000 extra wpd/spd and extra mag/stam this skill does, lets say 1200 dmg at base without any cp now(not a super far stretch as some skills have very generous scaling and on stamina side we can stack a lot % wpd modifiers).
The cp 2.0 equivalent gives it a 10% boost, bringing its damage to 1320.

A far cry from a huge drop in damage.

As for Thaumathurge not having a counterpart, im assuming this is beacuse they split master at arms to aoe and single target, to force more choices. I know this means that some skills benefit from multiple stars, while some dont, frankly they could just remove thaum then or add back master at arms.

All % damage done increases are additive, so x+10%+10%=x+20%, just x can be more complicated to find given buffs like Berserk, weapon skills and class passives. They are only multiplicative with other terms (% damage taken, crits, etc.).

I’m not trying to make any overall comparison of damage before and after the patch, it seems to have decreased by more than 10%, but hard to pinpoint an exact number with the armor bugs on PTS. My point is just that the CPs for various damage types are not balanced, and I’m not sure if this was an oversight or an intentional move to make direct damage builds weaker then DoT builds.

Onigar

Removed - Qu. not needed.

MrZeDark

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

Careful % modifiers don't stack additevly, but multiplicatively.
These comparisons can be very misleading if you assume 10% and 10% from different sources equate to a 20% increase.
And this doesn't even account for other % increases outside of cp like berserk, class passives etc.

This also doesnt account for the massive increase we are seeing in base stats(while this doesnt affect sets like selene, relequen etc, its still important).

To see the difference these extra stats provide youd have to use the same charcather on live and pts as benchmark and remove all cps.

I want to do some quick math here to demonstrate:

Now these numbers are made up ofc, but for clarity's sake lets just roll with it.

Lets you on live you have a skills which does 1000 damage, and has a cp star affecting it giving it an additional 25% increased damage.

Again for clarity, we are going to ignore all other modifiers for now, and assume this brings its total damage to 1250. Thats a 25% increase.

Now on pts(again made up number) due to the 1000 extra wpd/spd and extra mag/stam this skill does, lets say 1200 dmg at base without any cp now(not a super far stretch as some skills have very generous scaling and on stamina side we can stack a lot % wpd modifiers).
The cp 2.0 equivalent gives it a 10% boost, bringing its damage to 1320.

A far cry from a huge drop in damage.

As for Thaumathurge not having a counterpart, im assuming this is beacuse they split master at arms to aoe and single target, to force more choices. I know this means that some skills benefit from multiple stars, while some dont, frankly they could just remove thaum then or add back master at arms.

All % damage done increases are additive, so x+10%+10%=x+20%, just x can be more complicated to find given buffs like Berserk, weapon skills and class passives. They are only multiplicative with other terms (% damage taken, crits, etc.).

I’m not trying to make any overall comparison of damage before and after the patch, it seems to have decreased by more than 10%, but hard to pinpoint an exact number with the armor bugs on PTS. My point is just that the CPs for various damage types are not balanced, and I’m not sure if this was an oversight or an intentional move to make direct damage builds weaker then DoT builds.

It’s multiplicative. Has been for a long time.. in fact there are entire threads discussing the behind the scenes math.

MrZeDark

MrZeDark wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

Careful % modifiers don't stack additevly, but multiplicatively.
These comparisons can be very misleading if you assume 10% and 10% from different sources equate to a 20% increase.
And this doesn't even account for other % increases outside of cp like berserk, class passives etc.

This also doesnt account for the massive increase we are seeing in base stats(while this doesnt affect sets like selene, relequen etc, its still important).

To see the difference these extra stats provide youd have to use the same charcather on live and pts as benchmark and remove all cps.

I want to do some quick math here to demonstrate:

Now these numbers are made up ofc, but for clarity's sake lets just roll with it.

Lets you on live you have a skills which does 1000 damage, and has a cp star affecting it giving it an additional 25% increased damage.

Again for clarity, we are going to ignore all other modifiers for now, and assume this brings its total damage to 1250. Thats a 25% increase.

Now on pts(again made up number) due to the 1000 extra wpd/spd and extra mag/stam this skill does, lets say 1200 dmg at base without any cp now(not a super far stretch as some skills have very generous scaling and on stamina side we can stack a lot % wpd modifiers).
The cp 2.0 equivalent gives it a 10% boost, bringing its damage to 1320.

A far cry from a huge drop in damage.

As for Thaumathurge not having a counterpart, im assuming this is beacuse they split master at arms to aoe and single target, to force more choices. I know this means that some skills benefit from multiple stars, while some dont, frankly they could just remove thaum then or add back master at arms.

All % damage done increases are additive, so x+10%+10%=x+20%, just x can be more complicated to find given buffs like Berserk, weapon skills and class passives. They are only multiplicative with other terms (% damage taken, crits, etc.).

I’m not trying to make any overall comparison of damage before and after the patch, it seems to have decreased by more than 10%, but hard to pinpoint an exact number with the armor bugs on PTS. My point is just that the CPs for various damage types are not balanced, and I’m not sure if this was an oversight or an intentional move to make direct damage builds weaker then DoT builds.

It’s multiplicative. Has been for a long time.. in fact there are entire threads discussing the behind the scenes math.

This is why when I add 1 harmony my GY was 133k above my 105k avg, but if I add 2 harmony my GY only does 145k. Instead of 166k

Mahabahabtha

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

i dont get how others dont see if i can solo ndsa on my magsorc today at 810cp why should i not be able to do it at 1421 once new system goes live ? this is the issue i have the most with this new CP SYSTEM

My thoughts, too...

For me, the plan they´ll roll out is:
Nerf all Players around 20% in March...
Give them 20% Bonusdamage from Companions in June for 40 Bucks....

nice Job, we all get ZOSd.......


And what about the People who do NOT buy your expansion ?
Pay to win, Large Scale, i would call this....

silvereyes

Mahabahabtha wrote: »

Give them 20% Bonusdamage from Companions in June for 40 Bucks.....

From my understanding of what ZOS has said on the matter, Companions count as players in group content. So you can do a 4 person dungeon with 2 players and 2 companions, but not 4 players and 4 companions.

I know you just pulled +20% out of thin air, but a +20% bonus damage is a giant nerf compared to having another competent player along that can do more or less +100% extra damage, all else being equal.

silvereyes

Ringod123 wrote: »

CP Conversion

First thing's first CP simply HAS to be converted across to the new system based on total XP earned given that CP points will require less XP going forward.
[snip]
Removing XP we have already earned and forcing us to earn it again is simply unacceptable in my opinion

I agree that converting CP to the new curve would be the best for what's fair. But don't hold your breath.

Running a data computation on every single account's state for hundreds of millions of accounts is a risk. They never know how long it's going to take. Depending on their architecture, if anything goes wrong, it may take hours or even days to accurately resolve, during a marketing push that has everyone hitting the servers and developing opinions of their business.

I don't agree with it, but I can see how it would be much safer to just tell people to earn back their missing XP, especially when these changes are being made right before the back-to-back double XP events of the Jester's Festival and Anniversary Celebration.

tmbrinks

Curve is now scaled to 1800, which is a full 56% reduction of the amount of XP needed to get CP3600

CyberOnEso

I would just like to thank ZOS for listening to feedback regarding vertical progression.
I think the system that is on the current PTS is in a much better place for the game as a whole.

It is important that players feel like they are on an even playing field and success is derived from skill. Rather than just CP, I think vertical progression ending much sooner than originally planned is a good thing and adjusting the XP curve to allow all players to get to that point sooner is a good thing.

stefj68

i really feel bad that they put all the good cp into blue tree, each time i will earn a blue or red champion point it will go il a less desirable tree...

they put all the good eggs for survability into the blue tree, defensive, offensive and healing...

they need to rebalance good skills into 3 tree skills, and maybe make a new "talents or persk" pools for the crafting itself..

i feel that was rushed, and should be postpone to january

all the green tree should be passive, slotting / swapping skills each time you want to do something is painfull, i will pass 20% of my playtime swapping skills for day to day exploration...

i like the new perks and the linear approach, i like lots of perks they make... this is just my feedback as it is right now

CyberOnEso

Two points on cosmetic 'improvements'

The lines do not need to show on this screen, it just makes the UI look worse. It would be best in my opinion if they faded in when you zoomed in on a particular tree.

When you click on a purple star and then press alt you will immediately get thrown out of the CP screen.
You need to wait for the entire animation to play out and then press alt to return to the regular CP screen.

In my opinion, it would be best if you just pressed alt and then were moved back to the regular CP screen without having to wait for the entire animation to play out.

Luke_Flamesword

Thank you for adjustments of crafting tree in new patch - now it's so much better than before

Duplomancer

tmbrinks wrote: »

Curve is now scaled to 1800, which is a full 56% reduction of the amount of XP needed to get CP3600

Good to see it. I still don't like a curve for this kind of thing, but at least this change makes it less daunting.

silvereyes

I would just like to say, "thank you," to ZOS for all of the following:

• adjusting the catch-up CP boost to CP 1800
• the changes to the crafting tree to make it better for lower CP levels
• last week's changes to the warfare tree to lower the power of passives
• granting Major Gallop passively at Alliance Rank 3

It's not often that I see such direct actions in response to player feedback. I wanted to call it out when it happens. I know it's not what everyone wanted, but they are all fantastic improvements in my view. Great job!

MrZeDark

silvereyes wrote: »

I would just like to say, "thank you," to ZOS for all of the following:

• adjusting the catch-up CP boost to CP 1800
• the changes to the crafting tree to make it better for lower CP levels
• last week's changes to the warrior tree to lower the power of passives
• granting Major Gallop at Alliance Rank 3

It's not often that I see such direct actions in response to player feedback. I wanted to call it out when it happens. I know it's not what everyone wanted, but they are all fantastic improvements in my view. Great job!

AGREE AGREE AGREE

Ancalag

Yes, a great thanks to ZOS for their work on the green tree and for the exp boost !

If I wanted to be really picky I will ask for 3 things :
- go back to 100% for Plentiful Harvest, 50% is already good, but 100% will be a real QoL improvement.
- Wanderer is always too expensive. It's a totally useless skill because people can port from wayshrine or on other people for free. Or move it out of the way of more useful skills.
- set Soul Reservoir price at 30 instead of 33, because my brain prefer round numbers

virtus753

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

This came up in the thread on Templar Jabs, which led me to realize that splitting up the CP stars this way creates three tiers of classes based on what skills are buffed. In short:

-Stam Necros and Stam Wardens: these use Flurry as a spammable and therefore take Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge to buff their spammables and other single-target DoTs twice. All their AoE DoTs are buffed once and their single-target direct damage skills once.

-Stam Nightblades and Stam Sorcs: these use single-target direct damage spammables, so they can buff both their spammables and light attacks with Deadly Aim alone (but only one 10% buff to their spammables, as compared to 20% to Flurry). They then want to take Thaumaturge to buff AoE DoTs once and single-target DoTs twice in all.

Sacrificing Biting Aura in favor of the two crit dam stars is very easy for those classes, since AoEs make up a relatively small part of their total damage. Not so for the last two:

-Stam Templars and Stam DKs: these use AoE direct damage spammables. Deadly Aim and Biting Aura are required to ensure both light attacks and spammables are each buffed once. As no damage component is able to be both single-target and AoE at the same time, it's not possible to buff anything twice without sacrificing the single buff to either light attacks or the spammable. Using all three together (Deadly Aim, Thaumaturge, and Biting Aura) would require sacrificing Fighting Finesse or Backstabber. Testing will need to bear this out, but I don't know that that would be worth it.

Flurry is a clear rulebreaker here in being a single-target DoT spammable, thus the only spammable able to be buffed twice with these stars. But even if it were to stop being considered a DoT, we'd still be left with the two tiers of classes: those who can combine Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge, and those who have to take the weaker combination of Deadly Aim and Biting Aura.

master_vanargand

virtus753 wrote: »

Flurry is a clear rulebreaker here in being a single-target DoT spammable, thus the only spammable able to be buffed twice with these stars.

Is Flurry a DoT?
If I remember correctly, Flurry was changed to channel skill of direct damage in the update.

virtus753

master_vanargand wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Flurry is a clear rulebreaker here in being a single-target DoT spammable, thus the only spammable able to be buffed twice with these stars.

Is Flurry a DoT?
If I remember correctly, Flurry was changed to channel skill of direct damage in the update.

Well, depends who you ask. Thaumaturge says yes (last I checked), Azureblight says no.

ETA: if I remember right, its tooltip still says “Instant,” rather than having a channel time. But I’m probably misremembering from live.

And either way, we’ve still got at least two tiers of classes because of the other issue.

ApoAlaia

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

i dont get how others dont see if i can solo ndsa on my magsorc today at 810cp why should i not be able to do it at 1421 once new system goes live ? this is the issue i have the most with this new CP SYSTEM

I'm dreading this. I have stayed out of the PTS as to delay the inevitable realisation for as long as is humanly possible.

I do a lot of stuff that was not conceived to 'solo' on my own because as time goes by it gets more and more difficult to get people on board for certain activities.

Not that 'let's go farm X' was ever an easy sale but as long as people needed or wanted 'X' you could twist someone's arm however the pool of people needing 'X' (where X is not 'vCR+3, 90k+ DPS only') seems to have shrunk to non-existence.

tl;dr: I am dreading not being able to solo the stuff I am currently able to solo.