PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Champion Point System

EpicHero

Please don't throw our currently made XP away with the new system, by keeping our CP at the same level.

If you don't want to scale our CP to the new XP levels, then at least bank all the XP that we would now otherwise lose, and add it to our enlightenment.

Then for every XP point we make, we get a little back from what we have already made now...

Rungar

EpicHero wrote: »

Please don't throw our currently made XP away with the new system, by keeping our CP at the same level.

If you don't want to scale our CP to the new XP levels, then at least bank all the XP that we would now otherwise lose, and add it to our enlightenment.

Then for every XP point we make, we get a little back from what we have already made now...

You knew the price when you bought those cp. Now that the price has changed any new cps you buy will have the new price. There's your benefit.

Ellawissa

I feel a little consernd about healers. If I'm not wrong - they aronly one type of group-players who get only active stars and no good passive bonuses that shouldn't be slotted to work from new champion system. With Pale Order and this new champion system it seems like game developers are slowly trying to show that nobody needs healers, even the might one, that are creating it. It's frustrating to see such as the healer - patch after patch we are getting more usless. 99,9% of content is not dyable but easier without healer than with it. Most of HM's are better with high-dps mecanic skip than with healer's love and support of the team. Mayb ou can try to look into passivs for healers one more time and give them a little more love by making some of bonuses passive, like for tanking and damage dealing?

JobooAGS

virtus753 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

This came up in the thread on Templar Jabs, which led me to realize that splitting up the CP stars this way creates three tiers of classes based on what skills are buffed. In short:

-Stam Necros and Stam Wardens: these use Flurry as a spammable and therefore take Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge to buff their spammables and other single-target DoTs twice. All their AoE DoTs are buffed once and their single-target direct damage skills once.

-Stam Nightblades and Stam Sorcs: these use single-target direct damage spammables, so they can buff both their spammables and light attacks with Deadly Aim alone (but only one 10% buff to their spammables, as compared to 20% to Flurry). They then want to take Thaumaturge to buff AoE DoTs once and single-target DoTs twice in all.

Sacrificing Biting Aura in favor of the two crit dam stars is very easy for those classes, since AoEs make up a relatively small part of their total damage. Not so for the last two:

-Stam Templars and Stam DKs: these use AoE direct damage spammables. Deadly Aim and Biting Aura are required to ensure both light attacks and spammables are each buffed once. As no damage component is able to be both single-target and AoE at the same time, it's not possible to buff anything twice without sacrificing the single buff to either light attacks or the spammable. Using all three together (Deadly Aim, Thaumaturge, and Biting Aura) would require sacrificing Fighting Finesse or Backstabber. Testing will need to bear this out, but I don't know that that would be worth it.

Flurry is a clear rulebreaker here in being a single-target DoT spammable, thus the only spammable able to be buffed twice with these stars. But even if it were to stop being considered a DoT, we'd still be left with the two tiers of classes: those who can combine Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge, and those who have to take the weaker combination of Deadly Aim and Biting Aura.

Stamdens have sub assault, which is aoe not single target.

Fennwitty

Five Reasons Treasure Hunter Should Be Passive

From discussion https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561974/five-reasons-treasure-hunter-should-remain-passive#latest, posting here at advice of others it might be more visible.

In patch 6.3.3., Treasure Hunter's cost was reduced in the Craft skill tree but it still requires actively slotting as one of the four CP abilities.

"Increase the quality of items you find in treasure chests." Slotting required, 50 points

Even if the cost rose above 75, below are 5 reasons Treasure Hunter should stay a passive, non-slotted ability.

1. Treasure Hunter impacts the whole group
   Dungeon and trial groups often form to farm set items. If Treasure Hunter can be accidentally unslotted, raid leaders gain a new job: Remind everyone to slot Treasure Hunter before opening chests.
   
   
2. Looting becomes a chore
   Having Treasure Hunter but forgetting to slot it when opening chests will aggravate players. Pausing before opening chests to make sure they have Treasure Hunter slotted will also aggravate players.
   
   
3. It’s not a meaningful gameplay choice
   99% of my time logged into ESO doesn’t involve opening treasure chests. A character slotting Treasure Hunter performs no differently in a fight vs. an identical character without the skill.
   
   At the same time, if a player's worried about missing loot they'll slot Treasure Hunter 100% of the time -- effectively limiting them to 3 active slots.
   
   
4. Worse on servers
   Requiring active slotting is potentially worse for the servers, and counter to the goal of CP 2.0.
   
   Chest calculations are made only when opening an actual chest, nearly always outside combat. By requiring Treasure Hunter to be slotted, you’d add X players per group who will change their CP layout continually to ensure maximum up-time of abilities.
   
   In a trial group of 12 players, times 4 chests, that's 48 hits to the server. Now if some or all players shift their active CP slots when coming to a chest (see point 1) that's 48 hits plus the additional rearranging before and after.
   
   (I make assumptions here on when the checks happen)
   
   
5. We’re used to it being passive
   For current CP on live, it’s 75 points -- set it and forget it. Players spend points on Treasure Hunter and know whenever they open a chest, in the world or in a dungeon, it's got the maximum chance of giving good loot.
   
   The current reduced price of 50 doesn’t outweigh the new hassle. It's still a cost investment, and by requiring slotting means players can spend points on it and (accidentally or not) never gain the benefit.

Fennwitty

CP 2.0 Craft Passive Stars 'Out of Sight,' 'Breakfall' Impact PvP; Recommend Making Active Stars

From https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562025/cp-2-0-craft-passive-stars-out-of-sight-breakfall-impact-pvp-recommend-making-active-stars#latest, posting here at advice of others it might be more visible.

Two of the fully passive stars in the green Craft CP line will actually have noticeable gameplay impact, especially in PvP situations. A character doesn't have to slot these on their 4 active stars to gain the benefit.

PTS 6.3.3

Out of Sight, Non-Slotted
Reduces the radius you can be detected while sneaking by 1 meter per stage. (Max 3 meters, 10 points each).

• Out of Sight will buff the “gank” playstyle in PvP, by offering additional stealth bonuses. Today stealth reduction comes from specific medium armor sets, medium armor passive skill, or the Khajiit racial ability.
• Out of Sight also offsets the new heavy armor penalty to stealth detection radius.
• Because a player that trains Out of Sight will have a ‘perceptible’ advantage in PvP, and also because it allows players to equip different gear or potentially copy a racial ability, I believe it should require active slotting.

Breakfall, Non-Slotted
Reduces your fall damage taken by 7% per stage. (Max 35%, 10 points each)

• Reduced falling damage will be a noticeable help in PvP.
• Jumping off a wall or cliff to evade pursuers in Cyrodiil, or dropping down from above onto another player in Imperial City are common occurrences. The player with this star trained will be better able to survive or attack another player.
• Additionally, any character with 20 points in Breakfall gets 14% fall damage reduction, immediately stronger than the Bosmer racial 10% fall reduction.
• Because this star can directly impact play, and actually exceeds a racial ability, I believe it should require active slotting.

virtus753

JobooAGS wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

This came up in the thread on Templar Jabs, which led me to realize that splitting up the CP stars this way creates three tiers of classes based on what skills are buffed. In short:

-Stam Necros and Stam Wardens: these use Flurry as a spammable and therefore take Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge to buff their spammables and other single-target DoTs twice. All their AoE DoTs are buffed once and their single-target direct damage skills once.

-Stam Nightblades and Stam Sorcs: these use single-target direct damage spammables, so they can buff both their spammables and light attacks with Deadly Aim alone (but only one 10% buff to their spammables, as compared to 20% to Flurry). They then want to take Thaumaturge to buff AoE DoTs once and single-target DoTs twice in all.

Sacrificing Biting Aura in favor of the two crit dam stars is very easy for those classes, since AoEs make up a relatively small part of their total damage. Not so for the last two:

-Stam Templars and Stam DKs: these use AoE direct damage spammables. Deadly Aim and Biting Aura are required to ensure both light attacks and spammables are each buffed once. As no damage component is able to be both single-target and AoE at the same time, it's not possible to buff anything twice without sacrificing the single buff to either light attacks or the spammable. Using all three together (Deadly Aim, Thaumaturge, and Biting Aura) would require sacrificing Fighting Finesse or Backstabber. Testing will need to bear this out, but I don't know that that would be worth it.

Flurry is a clear rulebreaker here in being a single-target DoT spammable, thus the only spammable able to be buffed twice with these stars. But even if it were to stop being considered a DoT, we'd still be left with the two tiers of classes: those who can combine Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge, and those who have to take the weaker combination of Deadly Aim and Biting Aura.

Stamdens have sub assault, which is aoe not single target.

But Sub Assault is not a spammable. It has a 3-second delay and then fires again on another 3-second delay. Spammables need to be, well, spammed. Unless you’re getting a plurality of your damage from that skill (which is possible, with a particular setup), it’s not going to be worth sacrificing Deadly Aim, Thaumaturge, or either of the proc stars to give +10% damage to Sub Assault with Biting Aura.

anadandy

Fennwitty wrote: »

Out of Sight, Non-Slotted
Reduces the radius you can be detected while sneaking by 1 meter per stage. (Max 3 meters, 10 points each).

• Out of Sight will buff the “gank” playstyle in PvP, by offering additional stealth bonuses. Today stealth reduction comes from specific medium armor sets, medium armor passive skill, or the Khajiit racial ability.
• Out of Sight also offsets the new heavy armor penalty to stealth detection radius.
• Because a player that trains Out of Sight will have a ‘perceptible’ advantage in PvP, and also because it allows players to equip different gear or potentially copy a racial ability, I believe it should require active slotting.

This is pretty much the only bone thrown to Bosmer in TWO YEARS since ZOS took away their stealth radius. Getting it back in CP isn't my ideal choice but at least its something. If this is made this a slottable ability, then Bosmer need to get their Steath Radius back in the racials. There is more to stealth than just PVP ganking (see: two entire DLCs revolving around Stealth)

Nebthet78

Now that some changes have been made, I 'd like to see them really open things up so that we have true choice and make it so that we can slot any 12 that we choose, not just 4 from each colour.

That would allow people to slot all blue if they want for Trials and Arenas, and for people like me who have dedicated characters for just crafting and thieving we can use only those points instead.

FinrodMacBeorn

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Now that some changes have been made, I 'd like to see them really open things up so that we have true choice and make it so that we can slot any 12 that we choose, not just 4 from each colour.

That would allow people to slot all blue if they want for Trials and Arenas, and for people like me who have dedicated characters for just crafting and thieving we can use only those points instead.

That would be a disaster. Currently, at about 1550 cp, vertical progression für trial dds is mainly ending (except for the ability to switch active stars between trash and bosses). Until about 1800 cp, there are still some slight advantages to be had, but that are more important in arenas.

If you can slot 12 blue actives (assuming that there are so many useful ones), then you need 8x50=400 cp more for the blue section, i.e. trial vertical progression would end only at 1550+1200 = 2750 cp. Also, low cp people would be even more handicapped, as, then, - to avoid power creep - the effects of the blue stars would have to be further reduced.

If, however, we would be allowed to put all instead of one third of our cp into the same section, this would be another story ...

Maggusemm

Vertical progression promised but not given

We need more passives for people with cp above 1500-1800. It is totally demotivating that there is no use for more CP. Please give also high CP players some possibilities to invest their CP into something useful having a slight advantage.

Rungar

Maggusemm wrote: »

Vertical progression promised but not given

We need more passives for people with cp above 1500-1800. It is totally demotivating that there is no use for more CP. Please give also high CP players some possibilities to invest their CP into something useful having a slight advantage.

your advantage is that you have more slott-able options.

Fennwitty

anadandy wrote: »

This is pretty much the only bone thrown to Bosmer in TWO YEARS since ZOS took away their stealth radius. Getting it back in CP isn't my ideal choice but at least its something. If this is made this a slottable ability, then Bosmer need to get their Steath Radius back in the racials. There is more to stealth than just PVP ganking (see: two entire DLCs revolving around Stealth)

It's a bonus available to everybody regardless of race, and actually dilutes the uniqueness of Khajiit because they currently get the 3 meters of stealth radius reduction in their racial. There's no Bosmer or non-Bosmer -- it's just a benefit.

Regarding PvE usage: Yes it helps there, but against NPCs. You essentially solo everything in the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests noncompetitively.

A requirement to slot Out of Sight is for game balance when it involves other players. If the ability impacted only NPCs, I'd think it should still be slotted -- but it wouldn't matter as much.

Ratzkifal

Fennwitty wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

This is pretty much the only bone thrown to Bosmer in TWO YEARS since ZOS took away their stealth radius. Getting it back in CP isn't my ideal choice but at least its something. If this is made this a slottable ability, then Bosmer need to get their Steath Radius back in the racials. There is more to stealth than just PVP ganking (see: two entire DLCs revolving around Stealth)

It's a bonus available to everybody regardless of race, and actually dilutes the uniqueness of Khajiit because they currently get the 3 meters of stealth radius reduction in their racial. There's no Bosmer or non-Bosmer -- it's just a benefit.

Regarding PvE usage: Yes it helps there, but against NPCs. You essentially solo everything in the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests noncompetitively.

A requirement to slot Out of Sight is for game balance when it involves other players. If the ability impacted only NPCs, I'd think it should still be slotted -- but it wouldn't matter as much.

It does not dilute it in the slightest because it stacks. Khajiit benefit from that CP the same way any other race does, but they can reach a greater maximum.

I am against it needing to be slotted because you can argue that for every bonus to stealth in the game. Does sneak movement penalty reduction need to be slotted too? Sneak cost reduction already needs to be slotted. All of these affect your effectiveness compared to other players.
Also where is you suggesting that detection in Fitness requires to be slotted? It's literally there to counter the sneak stat in Craft so as long as both are available you can just invest into that if you are worried about gankers since it doesn't need to be slotted either.

JobooAGS

virtus753 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I would like to see a slottable star for increasing direct damage, like the old Master at Arms. I’ve heard some saying that Deadly Aim is replacing it, but single target damage is not the same thing as Direct Damage. DA is the opposite of Biting Aura, but Thaumaturge does not have a counterpart in the new system. I made a graphic to illustrate this point more clearly.

This came up in the thread on Templar Jabs, which led me to realize that splitting up the CP stars this way creates three tiers of classes based on what skills are buffed. In short:

-Stam Necros and Stam Wardens: these use Flurry as a spammable and therefore take Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge to buff their spammables and other single-target DoTs twice. All their AoE DoTs are buffed once and their single-target direct damage skills once.

-Stam Nightblades and Stam Sorcs: these use single-target direct damage spammables, so they can buff both their spammables and light attacks with Deadly Aim alone (but only one 10% buff to their spammables, as compared to 20% to Flurry). They then want to take Thaumaturge to buff AoE DoTs once and single-target DoTs twice in all.

Sacrificing Biting Aura in favor of the two crit dam stars is very easy for those classes, since AoEs make up a relatively small part of their total damage. Not so for the last two:

-Stam Templars and Stam DKs: these use AoE direct damage spammables. Deadly Aim and Biting Aura are required to ensure both light attacks and spammables are each buffed once. As no damage component is able to be both single-target and AoE at the same time, it's not possible to buff anything twice without sacrificing the single buff to either light attacks or the spammable. Using all three together (Deadly Aim, Thaumaturge, and Biting Aura) would require sacrificing Fighting Finesse or Backstabber. Testing will need to bear this out, but I don't know that that would be worth it.

Flurry is a clear rulebreaker here in being a single-target DoT spammable, thus the only spammable able to be buffed twice with these stars. But even if it were to stop being considered a DoT, we'd still be left with the two tiers of classes: those who can combine Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge, and those who have to take the weaker combination of Deadly Aim and Biting Aura.

Stamdens have sub assault, which is aoe not single target.

But Sub Assault is not a spammable. It has a 3-second delay and then fires again on another 3-second delay. Spammables need to be, well, spammed. Unless you’re getting a plurality of your damage from that skill (which is possible, with a particular setup), it’s not going to be worth sacrificing Deadly Aim, Thaumaturge, or either of the proc stars to give +10% damage to Sub Assault with Biting Aura.

Never said it was a spammable, only saying that it is a significant source of damage which cannot be ignored.

Soul_Demon

Rungar wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

Vertical progression promised but not given

We need more passives for people with cp above 1500-1800. It is totally demotivating that there is no use for more CP. Please give also high CP players some possibilities to invest their CP into something useful having a slight advantage.

your advantage is that you have more slott-able options.

Well, and you can work a bit more for more champ points, right? Pretty easy solution that doesn't require others work to be ignored.

lillybit

Fennwitty wrote: »

CP 2.0 Craft Passive Stars 'Out of Sight,' 'Breakfall' Impact PvP; Recommend Making Active Stars

From https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562025/cp-2-0-craft-passive-stars-out-of-sight-breakfall-impact-pvp-recommend-making-active-stars#latest, posting here at advice of others it might be more visible.

Two of the fully passive stars in the green Craft CP line will actually have noticeable gameplay impact, especially in PvP situations. A character doesn't have to slot these on their 4 active stars to gain the benefit.

PTS 6.3.3

Out of Sight, Non-Slotted
Reduces the radius you can be detected while sneaking by 1 meter per stage. (Max 3 meters, 10 points each).

• Out of Sight will buff the “gank” playstyle in PvP, by offering additional stealth bonuses. Today stealth reduction comes from specific medium armor sets, medium armor passive skill, or the Khajiit racial ability.
• Out of Sight also offsets the new heavy armor penalty to stealth detection radius.
• Because a player that trains Out of Sight will have a ‘perceptible’ advantage in PvP, and also because it allows players to equip different gear or potentially copy a racial ability, I believe it should require active slotting.

Breakfall, Non-Slotted
Reduces your fall damage taken by 7% per stage. (Max 35%, 10 points each)

• Reduced falling damage will be a noticeable help in PvP.
• Jumping off a wall or cliff to evade pursuers in Cyrodiil, or dropping down from above onto another player in Imperial City are common occurrences. The player with this star trained will be better able to survive or attack another player.
• Additionally, any character with 20 points in Breakfall gets 14% fall damage reduction, immediately stronger than the Bosmer racial 10% fall reduction.
• Because this star can directly impact play, and actually exceeds a racial ability, I believe it should require active slotting.

Just no. There are passives in the other two colours that aid combat so no reason to remove them from green. There are more than enough slottable options here that will reduce QoL as it is without adding in more that we have to slot for combat.

Faylestar

Placements of Green nodes seems awful.

There is almost always going to be wasted points (between 25 and 65) early in the tree if you want Master Gatherer (or any fishing related node) and dont craft. You're either picking up Inspiration (which is completely useless if you're capped at 50), wanderer and steadfast, or another slottable node that may or may not be good.


Is there a reason green doesnt have forks like "stealthy stuff", "crafty stuff" and "gather stuff" the way blue forks into healing, tanking and damage? It would at least make sense having to pick up certain nodes that way, as opposed to having to figure out which path takes the fewest wasted points to get to the things you want.

ExistingRug61

lillybit wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

CP 2.0 Craft Passive Stars 'Out of Sight,' 'Breakfall' Impact PvP; Recommend Making Active Stars

From https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562025/cp-2-0-craft-passive-stars-out-of-sight-breakfall-impact-pvp-recommend-making-active-stars#latest, posting here at advice of others it might be more visible.

Two of the fully passive stars in the green Craft CP line will actually have noticeable gameplay impact, especially in PvP situations. A character doesn't have to slot these on their 4 active stars to gain the benefit.

PTS 6.3.3

Out of Sight, Non-Slotted
Reduces the radius you can be detected while sneaking by 1 meter per stage. (Max 3 meters, 10 points each).

• Out of Sight will buff the “gank” playstyle in PvP, by offering additional stealth bonuses. Today stealth reduction comes from specific medium armor sets, medium armor passive skill, or the Khajiit racial ability.
• Out of Sight also offsets the new heavy armor penalty to stealth detection radius.
• Because a player that trains Out of Sight will have a ‘perceptible’ advantage in PvP, and also because it allows players to equip different gear or potentially copy a racial ability, I believe it should require active slotting.

Breakfall, Non-Slotted
Reduces your fall damage taken by 7% per stage. (Max 35%, 10 points each)

• Reduced falling damage will be a noticeable help in PvP.
• Jumping off a wall or cliff to evade pursuers in Cyrodiil, or dropping down from above onto another player in Imperial City are common occurrences. The player with this star trained will be better able to survive or attack another player.
• Additionally, any character with 20 points in Breakfall gets 14% fall damage reduction, immediately stronger than the Bosmer racial 10% fall reduction.
• Because this star can directly impact play, and actually exceeds a racial ability, I believe it should require active slotting.

Just no. There are passives in the other two colours that aid combat so no reason to remove them from green. There are more than enough slottable options here that will reduce QoL as it is without adding in more that we have to slot for combat.

They didn't mention it here, but I believe in the linked thread it was suggested that some of those currently slottable QoL stars in green you mention could be made passive instead of these.

I would gladly have things like the out of sight and breakfall be slottable if it meant other things like treasure hunter or the resource harvesting one were made passive instead.

And also yeah, if out of sight was made slottable then it would also make sense for the detection star in fitness to be slottable, for the same reasons outlined.

Fennwitty

lillybit wrote: »

There are passives in the other two colours that aid combat so no reason to remove them from green. There are more than enough slottable options here that will reduce QoL as it is without adding in more that we have to slot for combat.

100% agree with you: There's too many slottable QoL in Green. It will be a huge pain to swap around CP just to pick up a resource node or open a chest.

I focused on these two non-slottable ones in Craft, because things we slot should have some impact. Slotted abilities shouldn't be busywork or use once a day like most of the currently slottable Craft skills are.

These two legitimately do something worthwhile for combat, and I'd much rather they be slotted as a gameplay choice as opposed to QoL ones like Treasure Hunter or Meticulous Disassembly, which I feel strongly should not have to be slotted in the first place.

But many, many people have already raised the issue about too many slottables. I support that, and offer that skills like Breakfall and Out of Sight would be *better* slottables, because they do something noticeable.

Regarding Red and Blue: You're right, there are passives that directly influence combat. But just about everything in Red and Blue influence combat. That's their focus.

I have thoughts on several of the current passive/active slots there but started with Green.

lillybit

Fennwitty wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

There are passives in the other two colours that aid combat so no reason to remove them from green. There are more than enough slottable options here that will reduce QoL as it is without adding in more that we have to slot for combat.

100% agree with you: There's too many slottable QoL in Green. It will be a huge pain to swap around CP just to pick up a resource node or open a chest.

I focused on these two non-slottable ones in Craft, because things we slot should have some impact. Slotted abilities shouldn't be busywork or use once a day like most of the currently slottable Craft skills are.

These two legitimately do something worthwhile for combat, and I'd much rather they be slotted as a gameplay choice as opposed to QoL ones like Treasure Hunter or Meticulous Disassembly, which I feel strongly should not have to be slotted in the first place.

But many, many people have already raised the issue about too many slottables. I support that, and offer that skills like Breakfall and Out of Sight would be *better* slottables, because they do something noticeable.

Regarding Red and Blue: You're right, there are passives that directly influence combat. But just about everything in Red and Blue influence combat. That's their focus.

I have thoughts on several of the current passive/active slots there but started with Green.

Fair enough

I would be very happy if the green slottables were only combat related ones. I don't mind setting things up for combat, like changing CP and skills for trials. I'm just dreading having to micro-manage every other part of the game now too and know I'll very quickly not bother. It'll definitely impact my enjoyment a lot

Fennwitty

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Also where is you suggesting that detection in Fitness requires to be slotted? It's literally there to counter the sneak stat in Craft so as long as both are available you can just invest into that if you are worried about gankers since it doesn't need to be slotted either.

Excellent and yes. Piercing Gaze in the Fitness line should require slotting.

Take this example:

• Player A puts 30 points into "Out of Sight"
• Player B puts 30 points into "Piercing Gaze"

The result? Both players have spent 30 points each completely nullifying each other's choices 100% of the time.

The decision to make both 'always on,' very cheap, and mirror images of each other is disappointing design.

Now what would requiring slotting do? It means if Player A wants to be better at hiding regardless of level or race or class, they choose to slot "Out of Sight" over something else. If Player B wants to be better at spotting stealth, they choose to slot Piercing Gaze over something else.

They now respectively have chosen a specific advantage, and it's now much more likely to matter. Not everyone will slot these skills. Not everyone will train them passively. But tons of players will train up the skills to max if they're entirely passive. 30 is a small investment.

By requiring slotting players aren't canceling each other 100% of the time passively.

renne

AlexWaff wrote: »

Not sure if I have to mention it here or having a post by itself is sufficient, but anyway:
The Craft constellation having slottable skills at all is not nice, would simply be an extremely tedious chore, and ultimately feels bad. We'll either end up with a lot of automatic swap addons that equip the right Craft slottable skills whenever you do a thing (repair armor, harvest a node, fence goods, etc.), or nobody's going to bother using them - in both cases having all of the crafting constellation be passive, and simply not giving it any slottable slots, a way better approach.

All current skills in the crafting constellation are quality of life and mostly things we already get to have for free, permanently. Having to swap between then constantly to use them would all of a sudden would be bad. More so, having all of them active at once doesn't create any kind of "power creep", since they're all affecting different non-cobat things - you'd simply be removing a tedious micromanagement you'd have to do before every node, repair, craft, cupboard looting, etc.

Imagine how much it's going to suck for those of us on console who don't have addons to do everything for us and will have to manually change these slotted green skills every single time.

I already know I will just slot the ones that seem to provide the general best benefit for all the things I do in game and forget about the rest. Ain't nobody got time to be stopping and swapping out skills that were all previously passive, much less trying to REMEMBER that now we have to do it because these skills were all previously passive.

lillybit

renne wrote: »

AlexWaff wrote: »

Not sure if I have to mention it here or having a post by itself is sufficient, but anyway:
The Craft constellation having slottable skills at all is not nice, would simply be an extremely tedious chore, and ultimately feels bad. We'll either end up with a lot of automatic swap addons that equip the right Craft slottable skills whenever you do a thing (repair armor, harvest a node, fence goods, etc.), or nobody's going to bother using them - in both cases having all of the crafting constellation be passive, and simply not giving it any slottable slots, a way better approach.

All current skills in the crafting constellation are quality of life and mostly things we already get to have for free, permanently. Having to swap between then constantly to use them would all of a sudden would be bad. More so, having all of them active at once doesn't create any kind of "power creep", since they're all affecting different non-cobat things - you'd simply be removing a tedious micromanagement you'd have to do before every node, repair, craft, cupboard looting, etc.

Imagine how much it's going to suck for those of us on console who don't have addons to do everything for us and will have to manually change these slotted green skills every single time.

I already know I will just slot the ones that seem to provide the general best benefit for all the things I do in game and forget about the rest. Ain't nobody got time to be stopping and swapping out skills that were all previously passive, much less trying to REMEMBER that now we have to do it because these skills were all previously passive.

Agree x1000000!

Ratzkifal

Fennwitty wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Also where is you suggesting that detection in Fitness requires to be slotted? It's literally there to counter the sneak stat in Craft so as long as both are available you can just invest into that if you are worried about gankers since it doesn't need to be slotted either.

Excellent and yes. Piercing Gaze in the Fitness line should require slotting.

Take this example:

• Player A puts 30 points into "Out of Sight"
• Player B puts 30 points into "Piercing Gaze"

The result? Both players have spent 30 points each completely nullifying each other's choices 100% of the time.

The decision to make both 'always on,' very cheap, and mirror images of each other is disappointing design.

Now what would requiring slotting do? It means if Player A wants to be better at hiding regardless of level or race or class, they choose to slot "Out of Sight" over something else. If Player B wants to be better at spotting stealth, they choose to slot Piercing Gaze over something else.

They now respectively have chosen a specific advantage, and it's now much more likely to matter. Not everyone will slot these skills. Not everyone will train them passively. But tons of players will train up the skills to max if they're entirely passive. 30 is a small investment.

By requiring slotting players aren't canceling each other 100% of the time passively.

The only difference being that you don't have to give up much in PvP to slot Out of Sight, but quite a bit to slot Piercing Gaze. Detection has far fewer uses than Stealth does. You cannot really justify slotting Piercing Gaze over anything else in Fitness. Stealth on the otherhand, to the people interested in it, is so good that it becomes mandatory and any mandatory CP restricts choice rather than opening it up. If Piercing Gaze became slottable (or rather required to be slotted), then nobody would be taking it. And if nobody is taking it, then nobody will put points into it either, making it a useless CP.

Out of Sight and Piercing Gaze work well in their current state because the cost of obtaining them is similar. People interested in them can get them, people who aren't probably won't. Choices are being made already when working with a budget, which the majority of players has to, and that is especially true if future extensions to CP don't come with a CP cap raise beyond 3600.

And outside of PvP slotting Out of Sight becomes extremely annoying because you already have so many things you want to be slotting but Out of Sight is forcing you to only be able to pick 3 instead of 4 of the slottables you like, because it would be mandatory. Mandatory CP for reduce choice instead of increasing it and any player engaging in justice interactions a lot will see Out of Sight as mandatory.

Fennwitty

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The only difference being that you don't have to give up much in PvP to slot Out of Sight, but quite a bit to slot Piercing Gaze. Detection has far fewer uses than Stealth does. You cannot really justify slotting Piercing Gaze over anything else in Fitness.


Stealth on the otherhand, to the people interested in it, is so good that it becomes mandatory and any mandatory CP restricts choice rather than opening it up. If Piercing Gaze became slottable (or rather required to be slotted), then nobody would be taking it. And if nobody is taking it, then nobody will put points into it either, making it a useless CP.

This is the right direction for argument. What do we gain or lose by giving a character +detection vs. +stealth.

Passively ... nobody seems to gain or lose anything in PvP. They cancel each other completely. For stealth PvPers Out of Sight is mandatory. For both stealth and non-stealth PvPers Piercing Gaze is mandatory because stealthers exist.

If I'm going into Imperial City and you tell me "for 30 points you can prevent people sneaking up on you permanently within 3 meters" I have to take it. If I'm a stealth character and you tell me "for 30 points you can cancel out everybody's stealth detection permanently within 3 meters" I also have to take it. Net result: Nobody gains or loses.

In reality more PvP players will train Piercing Gaze (at least partly) than Out of Sight. Making Out of Sight even more mandatory for stealthers simply to return to the same level. It's a no-brainer permanent defense applicable no matter what I do.


I disagree having to slot Piercing Gaze would be in any way a waste. It becomes a real choice based on your expectations and playstyle.

If I'm going in alone to IC, or want to solo capture resources in Cyrodiil -- Do I want to make myself more resistant against gankers, or do I want to increase my magicka restore with Siphoning Spells? Do I want to increase resistance against gankers, or take 10% less damage from everything when I break out of crowd control (which I will be doing constantly whether against players or NPCs)? These are factors we should consider when slotting one star over another.

If I'm running with a group and other people have Revealing Flare or Expert Hunter slotted ... maybe I don't need Piercing Gaze active. If I'm a healer, maybe I skip Piercing Gaze because I trust I can outheal most sneak attacks and it's more important for me to resurrect allies by 33% faster.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

And outside of PvP slotting Out of Sight becomes extremely annoying because you already have so many things you want to be slotting but Out of Sight is forcing you to only be able to pick 3 instead of 4 of the slottables you like, because it would be mandatory. Mandatory CP for reduce choice instead of increasing it and any player engaging in justice interactions a lot will see Out of Sight as mandatory.

This comes back to the problem of Craft having way too many meaningless slottables for PvE.

Imagine if you didn't have to slot Infamous, or Treasure Hunter or Cutpurse's Art actively. But you did have to slot Out of Sight.

What are you giving up? You'd be trading away Food duration. Free potions and poisons. Faster riding speed. I'd take a slotted Out of Sight most of the time over those perks, because it gives me something tangible. But then again, maybe it's just NPCs I plan on murdering anyway, in my stealth reduction medium armor and I'm stealing because I want the money. Less food/potions etc. is a profit, besides potentially having combat applications.

Kurat

Rungar wrote: »

Maggusemm wrote: »

Vertical progression promised but not given

We need more passives for people with cp above 1500-1800. It is totally demotivating that there is no use for more CP. Please give also high CP players some possibilities to invest their CP into something useful having a slight advantage.

your advantage is that you have more slott-able options.

The difference between slottables is only 1-2k dps

Ratzkifal

Fennwitty wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The only difference being that you don't have to give up much in PvP to slot Out of Sight, but quite a bit to slot Piercing Gaze. Detection has far fewer uses than Stealth does. You cannot really justify slotting Piercing Gaze over anything else in Fitness.


Stealth on the otherhand, to the people interested in it, is so good that it becomes mandatory and any mandatory CP restricts choice rather than opening it up. If Piercing Gaze became slottable (or rather required to be slotted), then nobody would be taking it. And if nobody is taking it, then nobody will put points into it either, making it a useless CP.

This is the right direction for argument. What do we gain or lose by giving a character +detection vs. +stealth.

Passively ... nobody seems to gain or lose anything in PvP. They cancel each other completely. For stealth PvPers Out of Sight is mandatory. For both stealth and non-stealth PvPers Piercing Gaze is mandatory because stealthers exist.

If I'm going into Imperial City and you tell me "for 30 points you can prevent people sneaking up on you permanently within 3 meters" I have to take it. If I'm a stealth character and you tell me "for 30 points you can cancel out everybody's stealth detection permanently within 3 meters" I also have to take it. Net result: Nobody gains or loses.

In reality more PvP players will train Piercing Gaze (at least partly) than Out of Sight. Making Out of Sight even more mandatory for stealthers simply to return to the same level. It's a no-brainer permanent defense applicable no matter what I do.


I disagree having to slot Piercing Gaze would be in any way a waste. It becomes a real choice based on your expectations and playstyle.

If I'm going in alone to IC, or want to solo capture resources in Cyrodiil -- Do I want to make myself more resistant against gankers, or do I want to increase my magicka restore with Siphoning Spells? Do I want to increase resistance against gankers, or take 10% less damage from everything when I break out of crowd control (which I will be doing constantly whether against players or NPCs)? These are factors we should consider when slotting one star over another.

If I'm running with a group and other people have Revealing Flare or Expert Hunter slotted ... maybe I don't need Piercing Gaze active. If I'm a healer, maybe I skip Piercing Gaze because I trust I can outheal most sneak attacks and it's more important for me to resurrect allies by 33% faster.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

And outside of PvP slotting Out of Sight becomes extremely annoying because you already have so many things you want to be slotting but Out of Sight is forcing you to only be able to pick 3 instead of 4 of the slottables you like, because it would be mandatory. Mandatory CP for reduce choice instead of increasing it and any player engaging in justice interactions a lot will see Out of Sight as mandatory.

This comes back to the problem of Craft having way too many meaningless slottables for PvE.

Imagine if you didn't have to slot Infamous, or Treasure Hunter or Cutpurse's Art actively. But you did have to slot Out of Sight.

What are you giving up? You'd be trading away Food duration. Free potions and poisons. Faster riding speed. I'd take a slotted Out of Sight most of the time over those perks, because it gives me something tangible. But then again, maybe it's just NPCs I plan on murdering anyway, in my stealth reduction medium armor and I'm stealing because I want the money. Less food/potions etc. is a profit, besides potentially having combat applications.

I would never touch Piercing Gaze on a stealth character. Having a greater detection radius is detrimental for your own stealth because it gives stealthed enemies a headsup sooner than necessary. An enemy will see the eye indicator go from "hidden" to "danger" which is from closed to half-open when they are about to be revealed. If that happens later then they won't be alerted of my presence and they have less time to react because I already got closer. With a smaller radius it's also easier for me to slip by another player completely undetected. Good PvP players will pop a detection potion when they notice someone is about to reveal them and they are game for that fight (IC sewer base campers for example).
And then there is the issue that detection doesn't work in a circle but a cone, so you are still vulnerable from behind and the other issue that most people initiate their gank with a gap closer or snipe if you aren't currently sneaking yourself to capture a point or something, which your pittiful 9m of detection won't help you since an enemy is still outside of your detection range. At that point you might as well just have your regular 6m. Those 6m are enough in the tight corners of IC sewers anyway and in Cyrodiil out in the open field or even inside your keep there is enough space to avoid people looking for you, unless you are heading straight for them in which case 6m would again be enough.
So yeah no. Piercing Gaze is not obligatory ever, even at higher CP. Some people might still want it, but I sure won't. And that's without it needing to be slotted. If people had to slot it, then you need to ask yourself what will happen once you've detected/got ambushed by a player in stealth who has picked a different Fitness slottable than Piercing Gaze. One will have 3 defensive and sustain boni plus detection, the other has 4 defensive and sustain boni. In the case you presented, when you play alone, having to slot detection will put you at a disadvantage against any player who picked something else than Piercing Gaze. That's what I mean when I say it will never be worth slotting.

When I look at the CP in Fitness I am only considering Piercing Gaze to get to Tempered Soul faster if I don't care about Bastion or Shieldmaster or to get Survival Instincts without going over Mystic Tenacity since that negatively affects Survival Instincts. That's the greatest worth of the Detection CP in my opinion, because when you can pop a detect potion to gain 20m of stealth detection, you don't need that CP at all.

Out of Sight can be easily ignored by most people because Gilded Fingers is a much better starting point for anyone who doesn't do justice interactions, since you would have to get Friends in Low Places for 25 on top of Out of Sight and since Friends in Low Places is a slottable and not everyone is looking to get that, many people will avoid wasting those 25 points, especially when they are not all that into justice interactions and the inspiration boost only costs 15 per stage and Meticulous Disassembly is one of those must-haves with it being so profitable and right next to Treasure Hunter. Since these are also quite costly many people with a limited budget won't even think about Out of Sight unless they are actively looking to be stealthy. So it's not like everyone will start to become stealthy gankers now because of it. Which means the case that everyone is just gonna mindlessly get it because it's there is probably not going to happen.
But then again, if the next Alcast build says "get Out of Sight and Piercing Gaze", then they might I suppose, but making them slottable is not going to solve that anyway.

If I didn't have to slot Cutpurse's Art, Infamous or Treasure Hunter, I would slot Fade Away, Friends in Low Places, Sustaining Shadows, Shadowstrike or Steed's Blessing and that is still not letting me get the crafting material related CP or Homemaker (because you never know when the RNG gods smile upon you). And you want to introduce another slottable into this?
But I get the point you are trying to make. If there was actually enough space to get Out of Sight, then it could be a slottable. But that isn't the case and probably never will be so I am glad for everything in there that I don't have to slot. I also don't think it's powerful enough to even warrant that.
The fall damage one - sure, I guess, so jumping off a keep doesn't become a viable strategy to avoid death.

silvereyes

So, in CP 1.0, we had this:

The star representing the CP of what I imagine the mean or average player may have. Many have more, many less, but let's use CP 1000 to make things easy.

Now, in the current iteration of CP 2.0, we theoretically have this:


Which is much better than it was in PTS 6.3.0 (thank you again!), but it still suffers from two major problems:

• Vertical progression takes way too long. For a system that was supposed to minimize the affect of vertical progression, the fact that there are still combat advantages to be had up to CP 1800 is kind of ridiculous. That's 223% the XP of the old cap!
• The goal post has moved too far. For new and veteran players alike, the combat power per CP has been cut significantly. Wherever we thought we were on the spectrum (1/3 of the way, 2/3 of the way, at cap, whatever), we are now at a fraction of that. It has people feeling disrespected - like they have had something stolen from them.

I would propose that, however you implement it from a constellation perspective, the vertical progression should end much sooner:


This has several advantages:

• Raises the floor on DPS even further, allowing more people to participate and feel effective.
• Respects the existing player base by not taking away power they feel they've already earned.
• Gives newer players an achievable goal that leads them to strive to meet it, rather than feeling hopeless and leaving.
• Frees up more of the XP curve for horizontal progression that players don't race through, leading to a steadier feeling of achievement and more engagement.

Thank you for considering.

P.S. To be clear, when discussing the line between vertical and horizontal progression, I'm not talking about the "soft cap" inflection point where the rate of XP required per level of CP changes by 1.5x and the steepness of the XP leveling curve is determined. I think it is in a great spot right where it is.

Rather, I am talking about the point at which accumulating CP no longer gives any net advantage from a combat perspective, and all of the advantages shift to the convenience of being able to swap between active stars without a redistribution fee, or other non-combat perks.

Xebov

Rungar wrote: »

EpicHero wrote: »

Please don't throw our currently made XP away with the new system, by keeping our CP at the same level.

If you don't want to scale our CP to the new XP levels, then at least bank all the XP that we would now otherwise lose, and add it to our enlightenment.

Then for every XP point we make, we get a little back from what we have already made now...

You knew the price when you bought those cp. Now that the price has changed any new cps you buy will have the new price. There's your benefit.

That argument is not entirely right. CP was not bought, it was granted on the way. Buying it would imply that you had a choice whether or not you wanted to spend your XP on it. There was no such choice, XP was automatically used for this.