PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

Caelc

raegun wrote: »

After doing several initial parses on the pts i have tentatively concluded that 1) its soooooo hard to test this with the skill dropping bug. I'm getting inconstant numbers because my skills are randomly not firing and therefor have no constant with which to test my numbers. I've been getting a 5k variance between tests with the same rotation. 2) on parses with a low skill drop quotient I have been getting lower dps adding in heavys than with my normal light weaving rotation. My first dummy where i had the lowest number of drops I only dropped 2k dps from live with my normal rotation. where as im loosing around 5k dps adding in two heavys per rotation.

these parses are on a magdk in perfected false gods, elfbane, Zaan, maelstrom fire staff. I didn't think to log but i will be next time i go to test.

a suggestion for another way to fix this issue: optional auto attack set up an auto attacker to do .75 light attacks per second. if you can hit higher than that great! light attack manually if not turn on the auto attacker and get boosted to a decent level of damage. still gives advantage to higher skilled players but boosts up lower skill players significantly.

losing, not loosing. Unless you are a bow/bow build then loosing an arrow would make sense.

snoozy

so you killed werewolves entirely huh

and just now that i had farmed molag kena

DreadDaedroth

No please. This change will push many players out the game plus it doesn't even make any sense on its own. Why are you making everything slower? Changing sets like Molag Kena?

brandonv516

You're putting in too much effort for potentially something nobody wants.

A waste of resources.

FirmamentOfStars

raegun wrote: »

After doing several initial parses on the pts i have tentatively concluded that 1) its soooooo hard to test this with the skill dropping bug. I'm getting inconstant numbers because my skills are randomly not firing and therefor have no constant with which to test my numbers. I've been getting a 5k variance between tests with the same rotation. 2) on parses with a low skill drop quotient I have been getting lower dps adding in heavys than with my normal light weaving rotation. My first dummy where i had the lowest number of drops I only dropped 2k dps from live with my normal rotation. where as im loosing around 5k dps adding in two heavys per rotation.

these parses are on a magdk in perfected false gods, elfbane, Zaan, maelstrom fire staff. I didn't think to log but i will be next time i go to test.

a suggestion for another way to fix this issue: optional auto attack set up an auto attacker to do .75 light attacks per second. if you can hit higher than that great! light attack manually if not turn on the auto attacker and get boosted to a decent level of damage. still gives advantage to higher skilled players but boosts up lower skill players significantly.

I dont like the suggestion, since it may remove the effort and profit of learning the game. New players could be content with decent dps they would push thanks to auto-weaving, meanwhile the effort of the good players would be almost meaningless. Also it would cause quite the raise of "skill" in PvP...which in my opinion is unnecessary.

LadyDestiny

Plasma_Elf wrote: »

How about fix the huge list of bugs before making needless core mechanic changes like this?

I know right? I just want my plus subscription to work at least.

ELawlis

From the other thread (pasting before thread is deleted)

First, There should be a gap between casual players and veteran players, and while it may be too great of a gap right now, bringing the ceiling down instead of adding a step doesn’t make any sense. Buffing Heavy attacks so there’s a middle ground would be fine, but nuking light attacks into the ground and forcing veteran players to slow down combat so casual players don’t feel as bad is too far.

Second, if there isn’t going to be a PTS for console, then the forum response needs to be weighed as well. I’ve spent a year working on my LA weaving and DPS, all to find out that it could be for nothing so the game is more accessible to casual players. You are already adding treasure hunting and a vampire rework so they can RP, producing less and less End game content (I won’t be surprised if there’s no arena or mini trial in Q4 again) and now are considering nuking LA weaving.

To add: the console end-game community is small enough as it is, and making these drastic changes will only decrease that number. As a newer end-game player who has put in work to become proficient at LA weaving, this change to appeal to the expected influx of casual players who want to play “Skyrim Online”, only to find out that it isn’t that, will kill off the player base that has stuck around for years.

Last, suggesting that you’ll close feedback threads and make it only available via PTS leaves console players without a voice. This is why the change to jump/roll dodge in Scalebreaker had (hopefully?) unintended consequences for console players. Bottom line: We need a PTS.

Vinterskald

Uh... I'll try out on PTS just to be absolutely sure, but that seems... confusing at best?

Coming from someone with high ping and probably not the best reaction time (more key smashing than actual "weaving") this doesn't seem like a decent middle ground at all. I don't even mind the damage changes that much, but the way resource regeneration would work with this change needs some serious reconsideration. If you do want to add resource regeneration for light attacks, why not base the number of regained resources on the length of the attack (i.e. light attacks give back less than 'medium' attacks with give back less than fully charged heavy attacks)?

As a healer main, removing the resource regeneration from heavy attacks entirely doesn't make any sense to me. I hope you're going to keep in mind that, while most players favour dealing damage, tanks and healers still are a thing.

I can't say if that might change something about the current gap in "power" between newer players and veteran players that have mastered light attack weaving - though I do doubt it'd change anything for the better - but the resource regeneration changes are absolutely counterintuitive and would make the game quite a lot more difficult for newer players, while also not benefitting veteran players either.

Turtilla

Weeeeell, this is an ingenious way to solve the ping/stutter/latency and involuntary heavy attacks problem! suddenly it's all intended

In all honesty though, sure, there's a gap between top players and regular players, but this is just bound to widen it. And also to scare half of the top players away. And the rest of stuff that's noticeable at the first glance has probably already been said

Not good, ZOS pls don't

Baumlaus

*reposting from the other thread because i was too stupid to find this one*

"This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.""

The thing what is even more unintuitive in this fast paced combat system is to stand still and charge up a heavy attack for 1+second. As a DD there is nothing more boring and flat out demotivating than feeling slow in a combat system that isn't slow. The one thing this MMO has over so many others is no cast times, no cooldowns and so on and with that you are basically intrudicing cast times.
I get that it's counter intuitive to do HA attacks for ressources but right now you do maybe 1-5 HA per combat to sustain yourself.
With this you'd be doing HA as your main sort of damage, potentially. So for your own argument, dear zos, of it being "unintuitive" to do HA, your solution is to introduce more heavy attacking. Besides the fact that since morrowind you guys have been on a rampage to lower sustain so we have to give a *** about it, only to introduce more sustain now again.

I really hope this change doesn't go through. Combat will just feel boring and slow

ZeroXFF

I've been calling for the removal of LA weaving with AC for a long time, but this change won't functionally change anything in that regard. The fact that LAs restore resources and HAs do more damage is indeed more intuitive and probably a good thing for new players, but it's not the biggest issue with the current system.

The most unintuitive part is that LAs are kind of independent of skills, because you don't have to wait out their animation/cooldown to use a skill, but then again not really, because you can't do LAs after a skill. They should either be made actually independent (and implement WoW-style auto-attacks), or be made exclusive and be treated as just another skill. The way it is now, it's an absolutely unintuitive design where you're effectively not doing LAs and skills, but essentially pressing 2 buttons to use 1 skill. This is not contributing to anything being "fast-paced", it only unnecessarily complicates the controls.

This isn't an actions per minute issue, this is a conceptual issue. If you made the GCD half as long but treated LAs and skills the same, it would result in the same APM, but it would be much more intuitive and it would make it so that every button press is tied to a gameplay decision and is actually meaningful. As it is on live, it's just mechanical clicking of the left mouse button.

This fundamental issue is not being addressed with this change. If I use the PTS implementation as a starting point, the better design would be to reduce the cost of all skills by the amount restored by light attacks, and make heavy attacks increase the cost of the next skill by the same amount... And make LAs share the cooldown with skills. The LAs are effectively just a cost reduction for skills, so why make it this complicated for no reason?

So in essence there is still absolutely no reason not to macro it, because it's still effectively just 2 buttons for 1 action.

DreadDaedroth

Wasting time and resources on a change that will push players off the game, make everything slower again and plus why make players if your game waste time learning a new system? Many people put time in learning how to play better, farming and grinding for sets and everything is thrown out?

Universe

Actually the light, medium & heavy attacks changes are interesting.
I will check the changes in PTS.
I suggest to not judge until testing them.

Also, it may help to bridge the gap between players who have high latency to players with lower latency.
For example, my country's long distance from PC EU server makes my average latency quite high.
My lowest latency is never below 110 in open world and in Cyrodiil/Battlegrounds/Dungeons usually 250-550 lately.
This change can actually make combat more balanced when I fight players with 50 latency

ESO performance used to be better but now the latency is even worse so this can help remediate the performance gaps different players are experiencing.

olsborg

At first glance, these patch notes look fun and solid, will be interesting to test

xaraan

Here is my feedback:

I like the concept/reasons behind the change, but not the all of the changes themselves.

1. This does nothing to change the need to LA weave for casual players. In fact b/c they tend to have more trouble managing resources, it will make it more necessary. And make it necessary for support builds like tanks and healers (this is ok to me, but again doesn't change the need to LA weave and makes it actually apply more)

2. I think some will see this as whoa, a lot of resources for LA'ing. When we know the numbers will be adjusted to make us hungry for resources. It's happened every year for years now as soon as resources start feeling good, numbers are changed to make us thirsty. So any judging on the PTS IMO will be dishonest if people like it and then the numbers are changed next patch to dampen the resource return.

3. Heavy Attack meta was super boring last time it was a thing and that was more for certain classes and builds, if it becomes the meta for every class and build dps wise (because of how much damage it can do without using any resources) then I can't imagine how boring the game will become. This also applies to lowering the skill cap - you do it too much and things become boring b/c there is no challenge in the game. (And you can lower the baskets in BBall so anyone can dunk but NBA players are skill going to whoop you at the game)

4. The Heavy Armor passive change is frankly bad. So when tanking I can risk my life squeezing in a heavy attack (yes a HA is impossible in some content, barely in others, and not a big deal in a lot of non-dlc stuff) to get a whole 300 capped resource return back? This is barely worth the risk currently on live in some situations to bother with a heavy attack unless you are desperate for resources. Now you can just weave LA for resources, which is easier of course, but why would you ever need to heavy attack? Not for damage on a support build. So this passive needs completely reworked if this whole LA/HA thing goes live. Otherwise the passive is worthless and we've already had constitution nerfed several patches ago, had one passive split in half into two while you cut another passive entirely - so giving heavy armor yet another passive that might as well not exist is a bit much. But with these changes: why in the world would you EVER heavy attack for resources to benefit from this passive instead of just a LA?

edit: also, when have you guys put something on the PTS and not rolled it out in some fashion?

Edit 2: I guess if I'm going to talk about what's bad, I should mention ideas for changing the bad:

LA should not return any resources with a single attack. I would let them return resources if you make three in a row (maybe as much as a heavy attack currently on live returns), but not for single attacks weaved in between skills. MAYBE for two in a row I'd do a return worth about a 1/3 of doing the three attacks (not 2/3's) to make doing three in a row the goal for real return. I also wouldn't cut the damage on LA's by quite as much.

HA should not return resources as suggested, keep the stuns for off balance and all that, but I would either not bring the damage up much for a HA or have it cost resources. That extra power has to come from somewhere. But adding resource drain to LA/HA might not be easy coding wise and might ask for more bugs, so I just would probably just not increase the damage of a HA by much. Add some other benefits, like several seconds Minor Fracture or Minor Breach depending on weapon type when you heavy attack.

This would also have a side benefit of making the HA passive not completely worthless as you might do a HA as support to put breach on a boss, but at least get a little resource return from doing it, though the number should still be higher IMO. Make it a flat return period, not based on damage if you want to keep it from helping HA wearers doing DD build in Cyro and not make it worthless scaling off damage for actually PvE tanks to use. You could even have it add a second or two to the duration of the HA debuff used. (Also if worried about heavy armor meta in cyrodiil, add Crit resistance passive to medium armor, would make it more desirable in PvP and without effecting PvE).

iaminc

Since my light attacks don’t *** fire half the time anyways it doesn’t bother me.

5cript

Universe wrote: »

Also, it may help to bridge the gap between players who have high latency to players with lower latency.

Then just buff heavy attack damage and not this atrocity.

Appo

I like the changes, yes its different, yes it will take time to adjust and find new meta builds/rotations etc but it makes sense, a heavy attk shouldnt hit less than a light attk.

HA's do however require a significant buff in order to make it worthwhile to do, pvp especialy its risk vs reward.

If HA's are not worth while dmg wise people will just stick to LA weaving with infinate resources as animation wise a LA is completely free, a HA is not.

To add a new dynamic perhaps consider making the HA channel voulnerable to interupt (if they are buffed significantly) will add a new dimension of skill to pvp especially, in essence u cant just go around HAing for huge burst vs gd players, u have to land the stun etc 1st.

colossalvoids

So devs are actually wasting their and OUR time, resources and our money for this abomination of a "improvement"? It was fun years until it lasted, gg zos and good luck.

snoozy

HEAVY ATTACKS ARE SLOW, BORING AND NOT FUN AT ALL PLS DON'T GO THROUGH WITH THIS

Universe

5cript wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Also, it may help to bridge the gap between players who have high latency to players with lower latency.

Then just buff heavy attack damage and not this atrocity.

It won't be as beneficial as lowering the dps for light attacks.
Light attack is almost always the favorite for fast paced PVP combat or a challenging PVE content.

*No one in his right mind will use a fully charged heavy attack in PVP unless it is ganking/zerging someone(I don't encourage either).

Kittytravel

Pros and Cons of the changes.
Pros: Heavy and Light Attack weaving becomes more ingrained into the game forcing people to time their rotations in a more spaced out manner. This only occurs IF heavy attack damage is strong enough to merit even using.
The slower paced combat lowers the skill cap of a player theoretically; but I don't think it will actually do so since ESO's combat type between flipping bars and keeping up a perfect rotation while weaving in both light and heavy attacks is just a skill you develop over time and it becomes harder for players to do the more they have to be aware of mechanics in any given fight.

Cons: These changes likely make heavy attacks obsolete as we enter a meta where resource sustain is once again not even an issue; you just skill spam. There is no need to to use heavy attacks when you can simply use an ability instead and weave in light attacks to keep resources at maximum. Heavy attacks would have to be made to do a significant amount of worthy damage to even care about them. (To clarify; because of the time it takes for fully charge a heavy attack it would essentially have to be stronger than Snipe currently is... which I don't see being very healthy for the game as then heavy attacks would outweigh almost every other damage ability in the game with very few exceptions).
In PvP this slower paced combat means heavy attacks due to their massive predictability just won't be worth it as the opponent will dodge; things like templars Biting Jabs becomes more prominent in its advantages over the weaker spammables.

I would also like to touch on a very specific part of the post.
"Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options."

Couldn't the same argument be made that the reason there is less room for playstyle diversity is ZOS's reluctance to buff sets that are currently considered unusable or bad? It'd make more sense to buff old unused sets such as Ysgramor's Birthright or Medusa before trying to turn the game on its head with these changes. I'm not against the changes; I just believe there were several dozen steps to take before considering this option.

Veuth

This...
This is a colossal, TITANIC mistake. REVERT!

pma_pacifier

I'm a noob. Please don't blame me for dying to vet dungeon mechanic because I had to hold heavy attack please. Can we have some damage mitigation too while holding it down to heavy attack? Should be more newbie friendly.

stpdmonkey

This is what zos wastes resources on instead of fixing a broken game. My groups who could easily clear content 4 patches ago now struggle to clear content due to broken skills or mechanics. Like block falling off. Making everyone completely relearn how to run a rotation is absolutely messed up. Every person I know who has read this has stated if it goes into affect they will be quitting. Making people waste years of our lives playing just to completely destroy a game and focus on changing everything is wrong. I feel like devoting my time to what I once considered a great game with a few bugs has been completely wasted.

Pearly

I'm someone who has been spending a lot of time getting more deeply involved in harder veteran trial content. I have spent a ton of time working on my rotations, my gear, my LA weaving, and my overall skill to be able to do this content. There is such a strong sense of satisfaction that comes from performing well in a combat system that is currently fast-paced and action-oriented. When I look at these changes and imagine them coming into live, it feels like the game would slow down to such a boring pace.

Adapting a rotation to accommodate new balance changes and such, that's no problem. Adapting the way you have to play the game because of core combat principles being changed to make it require less skill to perform at a mediocre level? That's where I lose interest. I don't really want to just stand there and heavy attack to probably be less efficient than before.

I'm hesitant to even go on the PTS to test this because just looking at the numbers, I know I'm going to do less DPS with the damage reduction to LAs. My sustain isn't a problem, so effectively I will just do less damage. That feels bad for me. And I don't want to invest time in trying new gear sets and new rotations to perform as well as I am in live. It shouldn't be my job to justify that making all these changes will still keep everything the same DPS-wise. You are asking for feedback from your player base, and it seems like a lot of them are not excited for this. I hope you listen.

The fast-paced combat that rewards skill and ability is what excited me most about this game. If I become bored, I will probably leave, which means I stop buying Crowns and ESO+.

siddique

Here is my feedback. Stop killing the game by making such drastic changes every few months. This is an absolutely unnecessary change. Do you know you have a maelstrom arena? What's the purpose of that staff?

Why 78 percent? What's the thought process behind it? I would really like to know more about that.

Why remove resource gain "completely" from heavy attacks? What brainwave was behind that? At this time I'm interested in knowing the reason behind these nonsensical changes more than how stupid they are.

Your reasoning of apm and lowering skill ceiling are unsatisfactory.

SosRuvaak

snoozy wrote: »

so you killed werewolves entirely huh

and just now that i had farmed molag kena

they HATE

let me say that again...

they H A T E werewolves.

check the werewolf feedback thread, count how many replies since the last patch that people have complained its lacking healing or is too focused on DoT. zenimax doesnt care, they make the face of their DLC a wolf and tarnish the werewolf class more and more.

this game is becoming more and more a shadow of what zenimax used to be good at.


and idk what this molag kena change is for, its absolutely redundant and truly out of the blue.

who wants less damage and more resources... thats SOO backwards..... you use LESS resources the more damage your abilities do. If the enemy is dead, you dont have to use as many resources plain and simple. more damage, takes out more HP. of course theres a blance, but what is this change to molag kena going to do but make people stop using the set.

theres soo much evidence that zenimax doesnt know their own game.
i dont believe they play the game the same as everyone, they have their streams... but they cant even think the same as a regular player. its impossible. i experienced this as a server owner for minecraft, i couldn't experience the server the same as a player. thats why theres beta testing phases.
they truly dont understand their player base, these changes are just further proof.
soo unprofessional, i wouldn't hire any of zenimax employees under my company.

SosRuvaak

colossalvoids wrote: »

So devs are actually wasting their and OUR time, resources and our money for this abomination of a "improvement"? It was fun years until it lasted, gg zos and good luck.

youd think they would be putting time and thought into things like...
like.....like..

like literally all the feedback they get in the forums daily saying x is wrong, this needs fixing, or x is cool thanks do more of x.

Etrella

I can't freaking believe this why the damn PTS was down for an entire week. I really can't believe it. I am here thinking that they are working their asses off on improving the lag, the skills not firing, the crashes, the desyncs. I thought to myself, ok it seems that they are testing some major improvements to the performance of the game. I was really excited to finally dps test/play this game I enjoy without problems

AND THIS IS THE BULL *** THAT GETS THROWN AT US. ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!

This just shows us ALL how much you care about this game and your players. The truth finally came out. YOU JUST DONT CARE