Why nerf Iceheart?

Ascarl

I would be okay with nerfs as long as it s Not a shameless attempt to promote a new DLC set instead.

Golden_Cat

I feel like I've just dodged a bullet because I don't use Iceheart in my build

SirLeeMinion

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.

Nope. Just adding my voice, "It wasn't necessary." The less drastic nerf that has been proposed is also not necessary.

This is just one more update in a long string of them which will reduce my ability to solo content or even just enjoy a dungeon with a sub-par PUG. My characters are weaker than they were six months ago, they are much weaker than they were a year ago. Vet dungeons that were fun to solo a year and a half ago, I no longer even attempt alone. It's just not fun. Part of the enjoyment of an RPG is seeing your character get stronger, be better able to tackle content. In this respect, ESO has been in retrograde for quite some time. Watching our characters' abilities and strength wither away patch after patch, year after year just isn't enjoyable.

In the past year, I've closed the wallet, stopped reporting bugs on the PTS and in game, stopped hosting guild events, dropped my trials guild, and lately I find I'm ignoring those, "can someone make me training armor?" requests in zone and even guild chat. I know nobody cares, but I also know I'm not alone in this growing apathy.

#WeDissent

WiseSky

I think 6 seconds is to fast 12 is too long make it 9 seconds CD and I will be happy

sonwon.1_ESO

"The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown."

Still unacceptable, PLEASE KEEP ICEHEART THE SAME!!!

I will not be planning to buy this DLC or any future DLC if these changes stay.

Curious_Death

I do not understand this nerf... its clearly nerfing base game to make dlc more attractive...

NoNameNamer

I am sad, this was the final straw for me.

Onigar

Iceheart is a nice niche set for solo player content. For group content there are many other more useful monster sets.

So if you really really need to adjust Iceheart then instead of just doing a complete across the board nerf why not divide the set 2nd bonus into two sections so you get close to what it is now for solo play and adjust it down to what you are suggesting for group play.

In this way you progress your set lines in the direction you want as well as keeping so many of the solo player base who currently use this set happy.

fred4

I watched Nefas' video and apparently I was wrong. I previously called the set "something you grow out of" or in other words "pretty useless". However, according to Nefas, it is a strong and widely used set in trial progression groups. Nonetheless, I don't agree that any nerf was called for. Why? Because it doesn't affect endgame. Here you have this unique thing, a set that helps mid-level players, but is not strong in PvP nor used by top-level endgame PvE players. That's fantastic! That's the holy grail: A set that doesn't have any balancing issues where it's torn between PvP and PvE or that upsets the PvE meta by being unambiguously BIS, yet a set that is still widely used and that people enjoy.

The argument that it allows you to bypass mechanics is also a bogus one, in my opinion. There are lots of ways that can be done. Being a top DPS is a far more egregious way that happens. You only need to look at videos of 600K+ vMA runs for that. I don't know whether such a statement will draw the ire of contributors, here, who worked hard for their DPS, but let me remind you: ZOS once banned a player for first doing a high 500K or 600K run, because they erroneously thought he/she was exploiting. High DPS and clever use of the detonation mechanic can bypass the entire "I'm ascending to my royal cloud" phase and subsequent finale in the last fight. No way that was intended, yet also no way you'll achieve anything remotely like that by wearing Iceheart.

On the opposite end of the spectrum I can think of some dungeon tanking sets that make life a lot easier, but that are not and have never been meta. I won't name them for fear they'll also be nerfed.

What nerfing Iceheart amounts to is taxing the middle class.

P.S.: I don't believe it's got anything to do with wanting to sell people on the new set, which looks even more niche, e.g. templar only. It's IMO all to do with their lack of experience in playing their own game. It caught their eye while they were introducing the other set, that's all.

Streega

I have two characters which I play only for fun: a Master Thief, with three niche "sneaky" sets, and an Ice Warden, with, you guessed it, Iceheart set and another frost related set I don't recall the name rn.
I use my Ice Warden to pug dungeons. I didn't even care about exact Iceheart stats, all I saw was "oh, an ICE shield with little bit of AoE, good for soft taunting, great!". It was pure joy to lead a group of noobs, drop in the middle of trash mob pile like a little angry blizzard and watching my little cubs pew-pew them and learn Everybody was having fun. Mind you, this was good for normal dungeons and non-DLC vet dungeons, but I wouldn't try that in vet DLCs.
This is the second time you are destroying my Ice Warden build, the first time being Arctic Wind nerf - which was slightly fixed, but the question is, why did you have to do this in the first place?
I'm a middle-aged, casual player, with poor eyesight, crappy keyboard and mouse and big love for TES. ESO was my dream come true in the gaming world. But I'm growing tired, not of the game itself, but of those constant changes and nerfs. Every time I manage to achieve decent level of skill and confidence with my chosen build, you destroy it. I stopped playing a werewolf, I can't watch how what should be a powerful, fierce beast turned into toothless puppy. Now my Ice Warden, which was FUN build, I repeat: FUN, not OVER POWERED build, is melting again. Oh, and my fierce, sneaky Bosmer marksman girl is growing a beer-belly falling into depression in the Salty Tavern, because she is useless now too.
This Iceheart triple-nerf won't hit the good players from the leaderboards, because they don't use it, or can easily adapt. It hits the casuals, trying to have fun and survive.
I won't buy the DLC, and the Greymoore chapter will be the first one I won't pre-order. I have also cancelled my ESO+, and I'm not sure if I will renew it. Tell Mother Cianide I won't be visiting her unless I get my Iceheart back.

Counter_point

The reasoning for this nerf makes no sense. "Well above our standards..." What ARE the standards? Don't change Iceheart. It's not like it's so overpowered that people won't die wearing it anyway. It's simply a preventative measure. Just because someone wears Iceheart doesn't guarantee anything, but you seem to think it does. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why there's a new set coming out that's very similar? Why? Create something else. Why nerf ALL three aspects of Iceheart? The shield wasn't that big, the dmg wasn't great anyway, and the radius was small. I agree with everyone here, you've rendered it useless now. The new set isn't any better. No one will use either.

Please reconsider these changes. Come up with better ideas.

Runefang

Feels like the issue is actually with the standards they are using.

It’s damage only occurs when the shield is up, but it’s only worn in content where the shield is often taken down quickly (otherwise why wear it?) so the potential and actual damage is quite far apart.

It’s also obviously geared for Magicka users but the damage has a really small radius meaning it’s often not hitting anything because the users are at range.

But the standard isn’t considering any of that.

Compare that with new set which has a guaranteed proc with narrow conditions that mean most classes simply can’t use it. So if it’s even worth slotting army all it’s going to actually create imbalance in favour of the classes which can use it. But these standards won’t consider that because they seem to lack the concept of context.

mareeelb16_ESO

It's so disappointing to see these planned changes to a set that has a very specific use to a group of players who could never be described as overpowered or threatening to balance.

As so many people have said, Iceheart is not a strong set.

It has however provided an opportunity for a number of people, myself included, to participate and enjoy content that I'd otherwise find very hard to access.

I have MS which severely affects my dexterity and this set has helped me to continue to enjoy a game that I love very much. Nobody uses it for its cursory damage. For me it is an issue of accessibility.

Please, please listen to the many voices and reconsider the changes that would put even more of the game out of reach for people like myself.

logarifmik

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.

With the damage nerfed to the ground? Yeah, sure, makes perfect sense. Besides, why do I need a magical shield, which I should try to preserve from enemies attacks? How? By applying another shield? Why? I really don't understand the logic. It seems flawed to me.

Bexy

mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »

It's so disappointing to see these planned changes to a set that has a very specific use to a group of players who could never be described as overpowered or threatening to balance.

As so many people have said, Iceheart is not a strong set.

It has however provided an opportunity for a number of people, myself included, to participate and enjoy content that I'd otherwise find very hard to access.

I have MS which severely affects my dexterity and this set has helped me to continue to enjoy a game that I love very much. Nobody uses it for its cursory damage. For me it is an issue of accessibility.

Please, please listen to the many voices and reconsider the changes that would put even more of the game out of reach for people like myself.

^ This. These changes kill the fun and ruin the accessibility of some parts of the game for solo players and people with health issues. I have nerve damage in my hands so my reaction times are slower, Iceheart keeps me safe. This monster set doesn't hurt endgame players in any way but helps some of us. Please do NOT nerf Iceheart!

Ezhh

Just adding my drop to the ocean:

Iceheart never felt overpowered to me, and I find that as I get better at the game I use it less and less. It felt like a nice tool to help me learn things, but never that it's help was too overpowered, and it's use always caused me to sacrifice a fair amount of damage. That's the kind of trade off that makes sense to me.

I'd say just remove the damage and leave the rest alone if it must be nerfed, but there are also so few options for frost damage that I know this would upset many players.

And really, this whole change was obviously going to happen. It was predicted the moment the pathetic stats of the new set were seen. Why not add new sets that do new things, instead of try to replace/reinvent one of the limited number of base game ones that is actually useful?

I suspect that even with the further changes to Iceheart that have been promised, I will now be carrying one less monster set with me. I've been holding back on pre-ordering the new chapter, and this may have made up my mind for me...

jecks33

Golden_Cat wrote: »

I feel like I've just dodged a bullet because I don't use Iceheart in my build

don't worry, next patch they will nerf one of your favourite monster sets

VaxtinTheWolf

Is that "Mother Ciannait" magicka specific? since it only restores magicka? Why not split the value like you did with Sentinel to restore both resources but at a lower amount. My stamina templar tank would appreciate that instead if I ever managed to acquire that set one day.

Shaloknir

Ezhh wrote: »

Just adding my drop to the ocean:

Iceheart never felt overpowered to me, and I find that as I get better at the game I use it less and less. It felt like a nice tool to help me learn things, but never that it's help was too overpowered, and it's use always caused me to sacrifice a fair amount of damage. That's the kind of trade off that makes sense to me.

I'd say just remove the damage and leave the rest alone if it must be nerfed, but there are also so few options for frost damage that I know this would upset many players.

And really, this whole change was obviously going to happen. It was predicted the moment the pathetic stats of the new set were seen. Why not add new sets that do new things, instead of try to replace/reinvent one of the limited number of base game ones that is actually useful?

I suspect that even with the further changes to Iceheart that have been promised, I will now be carrying one less monster set with me. I've been holding back on pre-ordering the new chapter, and this may have made up my mind for me...

I totally agree! With everything you said.

heaven13

Runefang wrote: »

Feels like the issue is actually with the standards they are using.

It’s damage only occurs when the shield is up, but it’s only worn in content where the shield is often taken down quickly (otherwise why wear it?) so the potential and actual damage is quite far apart.

It’s also obviously geared for Magicka users but the damage has a really small radius meaning it’s often not hitting anything because the users are at range.

But the standard isn’t considering any of that.

Compare that with new set which has a guaranteed proc with narrow conditions that mean most classes simply can’t use it. So if it’s even worth slotting army all it’s going to actually create imbalance in favour of the classes which can use it. But these standards won’t consider that because they seem to lack the concept of context.

Exactly this.

dimensional

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.

That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.

@ZOS_GinaBruno maybe consider not nerfing it at all because it really isn't one of the stronger sets around by any measure, and those of us who do still use it would like it to be... usable and not *completely* trash?

rainfeatherpearl

Can I just repeat this statement already said by a number of people? IT IS NOT A STRONG SET!

Olauron

Iceheart is not a strong set. If it is higher than your standards then fix your standards.

mazeikeen

Runefang wrote: »

Feels like the issue is actually with the standards they are using.

Exactly this. Bringing a niche, situationally useful set in line with other garbage sets in the name of a standard is fine if you want your standard to be garbage.

Darkstorne

Runefang wrote: »

Feels like the issue is actually with the standards they are using.

It’s damage only occurs when the shield is up, but it’s only worn in content where the shield is often taken down quickly (otherwise why wear it?) so the potential and actual damage is quite far apart.

It’s also obviously geared for Magicka users but the damage has a really small radius meaning it’s often not hitting anything because the users are at range.

But the standard isn’t considering any of that.

Compare that with new set which has a guaranteed proc with narrow conditions that mean most classes simply can’t use it. So if it’s even worth slotting army all it’s going to actually create imbalance in favour of the classes which can use it. But these standards won’t consider that because they seem to lack the concept of context.

Exactly. It's less damage than Grothdarr, in a much smaller AOE, and the damage is cancelled as soon as the shield is lost. Nerfing the damage and the shield strength is a double-nerf to damage, which this set was never great at anyway. Their "standards" aren't factoring in any of these use-case factors. A Google search for "best ESO monster set" will rarely ever find Iceheart being mentioned. It's always been a fun and unique set for the players that enjoy off-meta builds rather than chasing a glass cannon meta build. They should be encouraging its use, not hitting it with the nerf bat just because their Excel spreadsheet tells them to.

But we already know how ZOS will respond to all this feedback:

Gengulfus

This is not about balance, set strength, standards, or any of the other misdirection thrown into the mix.

It is about profit.

Contrary to an earlier contributor my suspicion is that despite the great launch and excellent cinematic trailer, presales may have been disappointing.

The result is the hasty and ill considered destruction of a set widely used by average players purely aiming to have fun, particularly those who exclusively play solo, such as myself.

With a tangible slice of existing content being closed off to me now, I see absolutely no reason for ZOS to profit from my loss, so I will save the 60 bucks I was about to splash on this chapter and wait for the sales next year or a lucky win in a stream giveaway.

It is such a shame that for so many people this will really take the shine off what should have been a mouthwatering prospect.

thadjarvis

fred4 wrote: »

The argument that it allows you to bypass mechanics is also a bogus one, in my opinion. There are lots of ways that can be done. Being a top DPS is a far more egregious way that happens. You only need to look at videos of 600K+ vMA runs for that. I don't know whether such a statement will draw the ire of contributors, here, who worked hard for their DPS, but let me remind you: ZOS once banned a player for first doing a high 500K or 600K run, because they erroneously thought he/she was exploiting. High DPS and clever use of the detonation mechanic can bypass the entire "I'm ascending to my royal cloud" phase and subsequent finale in the last fight. No way that was intended, yet also no way you'll achieve anything remotely like that by wearing Iceheart.


On point. It makes it more feasible for newer vDLC players/groups to get more extended learning reps with the mechanics that they are unable to avoid due to lower DPS. It is removed once the mechanics are learned.

The_Lex

fred4 wrote: »

I watched Nefas' video and apparently I was wrong. I previously called the set "something you grow out of" or in other words "pretty useless". However, according to Nefas, it is a strong and widely used set in trial progression groups. Nonetheless, I don't agree that any nerf was called for. Why? Because it doesn't affect endgame. Here you have this unique thing, a set that helps mid-level players, but is not strong in PvP nor used by top-level endgame PvE players. That's fantastic! That's the holy grail: A set that doesn't have any balancing issues where it's torn between PvP and PvE or that upsets the PvE meta by being unambiguously BIS, yet a set that is still widely used and that people enjoy.

The argument that it allows you to bypass mechanics is also a bogus one, in my opinion. There are lots of ways that can be done. Being a top DPS is a far more egregious way that happens. You only need to look at videos of 600K+ vMA runs for that. I don't know whether such a statement will draw the ire of contributors, here, who worked hard for their DPS, but let me remind you: ZOS once banned a player for first doing a high 500K or 600K run, because they erroneously thought he/she was exploiting. High DPS and clever use of the detonation mechanic can bypass the entire "I'm ascending to my royal cloud" phase and subsequent finale in the last fight. No way that was intended, yet also no way you'll achieve anything remotely like that by wearing Iceheart.

On the opposite end of the spectrum I can think of some dungeon tanking sets that make life a lot easier, but that are not and have never been meta. I won't name them for fear they'll also be nerfed.

What nerfing Iceheart amounts to is taxing the middle class.

P.S.: I don't believe it's got anything to do with wanting to sell people on the new set, which looks even more niche, e.g. templar only. It's IMO all to do with their lack of experience in playing their own game. It caught their eye while they were introducing the other set, that's all.

Very well said.

I hope ZOS changes it back to the way it was. I'd even be happy with a little tweak to the CD, but we all know that ZOS tweaks things with a sledge hammer.

TmanFoody

karekiz wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

What else can we Nerf?

Slimecraw - Perma Minor Berserk with no healer or Restro staff requirement. This allows Tank + 3 DPS to effectively cheat out having a pseudo healing with 100% effectiveness on Combat Prayers, while the tank delivers orbs (Or DPS) to the team. This undermines appropriate group composition and reduces the need for healers to play a role in a group.

New Change:
Slimecraw -
1 piece - Crit
2 piece - Whenever you deal light attack damage from the Back grant yourself Minor Resolve for 2 seconds.

Fixed. This new set still uses the old idea in new ways!

New DLC New new set:

DLC The Red Herring:
1 piece - Stamina/Magica
2 piece - Whenever you light attack a monster grant yourself Minor Berserk for 2 seconds.

I disagree. People have played this game without healers in 4 man content before slimecraw was a thing, and even when it came out people have ran without healers and without slimecraw. Slimecraw is used in places like vcr where a healer can’t provide it for you. It’s technically not as much Dps as you could have because you lose the extra damage upstairs from not having a different monster set and minor berserk. Slimecraw didn’t make healers obsolete in 4 man content. Also how does slimecraw cheat groups out of healing? It doesn’t provide any heals. If you made it necessary to have a healer in 4 man content, then slimecraw wouldn’t be useful in 4 man content.

thadjarvis

@TmanFoody
I believe the post you quoted was mostly tongue in cheek to illustrate nerfing an old set to sell a new one.

@karekiz ’s mistake was leaving out a camo hunter nerf