Why nerf Iceheart?

virtus753

that_goat wrote: »

One has to ask themselves if these sorts of changes are done with fun and player experience in mind or if it's just to make the game more frustrating for average players so that convenience is easier to sell. The explanation of "set do not meet our standards" is so nebulous and hand wavey that it likely means the actual reason is something that would have bad optics if it were made public.

It could be covering up for something as well, but I think they do genuinely have a vision of standardization and are trying to corral all the sets and abilities in game to be on at least the same plane of existence, if not a comparable playing field.

I can sympathize with having to standardize a massive data set you’ve inherited (I was once asked to do so for all the time periods used in the database of a major U.S. art museum), but one of the big issues here seems to me that the standards are being redefined per the developers’ views on power budget, comparability, etc., with only a conceptual rather than experiential eye. That certainly compounds the “nebulous and hand wavey” feeling of it all.

This is precisely where the issue of “standards” becomes a problem. Iceheart was a de facto standard in its own right for certain use cases. Neither generally meta nor entirely useless, it filled several niches in game to a tee. It was in a much better (read: balanced) place compared to the vast majority of other sets in game. Yet Iceheart was just deemed “leagues beyond” the currently desired standard. To put it another way, the currently desired standard is leagues behind (relatively) balanced.

So why that new standard, and why does it seem to be aligned to some theoretical rather than experiential sense of the game? When the developers find themselves significantly changing the rare exemplary set like this, as has been said, it is the new standard itself that should be reconsidered. If they want new sets to be in a good place, they should see what sets are currently in a good place and why. Find the exemplary sets — the ones that work in a balanced way — and base the standards on those rather than reconfiguring those functional sets to fit some new standard you hope will work even as you are being told it won’t. And the fact that it won’t work should also have been clear from the drastic degree of divergence from what did work.

Standardization can be a valid approach, but that requires approaching it the right way. Just because something is popular doesn’t mean it’s OP. And it certainly doesn’t mean a comparatively balanced set should be brought down to the level of new content that has balance and use case problems all its own. This most recent “compromise” of trying to equate Iceheart’s and MC’s numbers shows a fundamental lack of understanding that two sets with such different use cases and proc conditions cannot simply be given the same numbers in order to be balanced. That’s equivocation, not equivalence.

ESO_Nightingale

Altyrann wrote: »

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

Gina did say on ESO live there are more changes to Iceheart in the final PTS patch next week,which may or may not pacify the forum anger,but we will see.

Thanks. Missed that so good to hear. Fingers crossed they end up buffing it!

I'm pretty sure they're just reverting the cooldown change. Not the absurd damage nerf.

Dusk_Coven

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Juhasow

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Umm no ? Do You even understand what You've quoted ? My argument is that if "A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score" still despite all of this finds Iceheart to be extremly usefull then it's even more usefull for everyone else who do not have preparation like that. If top DDs finds extra defense sometimes to be more usefull then extra damage then casual players will find that extra defense even more usefull. Also do You know what word "example" means ? Because I gave just an example of pinaccle use of that set. Example that shows how usefull Iceheart is not only in that 1 type of content but everywhere where extra defense is usefull for DD with vBRP being best example of that. But it's not limited to vBRP it's also very usefull in 4 man dungeons , 12 man trials and in vMA. Everywhere where for many different reasons You will need some extra defense on DD that set is beating every other option.

Juhasow

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Iceheart is stronger then bloodspawn or troll king because of many different reasons. Namely because those other sets helps Your health bar when it takes damage when iceheart simply stops the damage from interacting with Your health bar. To proc bloodspan You need to take damage to proc troll king You need to heal Yourself while under 50% health. Comparing bloodspawn or troll king defensive strenghts to iceheart in PvE is laughable. Iceheart leaves both of those sets far behind. Guess which one of those 3 montster sets allows to survive 21k one shot mechanic when You have 20k health ? Iceheart is literally extending Your health bar by 9k. In PvE it can absorb sometimes more then 50% of incoming damage which means that damage will not affect Your health. It's like getting 50% damage mitigation bonus. There is no other monster set that can come close to that in PvE.

You realize that ALL shields do this, right? I'm not sure why you're acting like Iceheart is the only way to do this- Dampen Magicka, for example, caps out at 60% of max health, so if I'm running vMA with 18k health, that's an 11k damage shield. You're talking about this "health bar extension" like it's something unique to Iceheart.

Juhasow wrote: »

And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

Why on earth is this a problem? Do you think that the unworthy lowbs shouldn't have access to this because in your head they're not "worthy" of completing the content without what you deem this "crutch" set? IT'S A GOOD THING that EVERYONE has access to this. Are you happier with this new abomination of a monster set being introduced because it's only going to help templars? I don't get it. The fact that the unworthy are able to also beat vBRP is seemingly somehow not OK with you, and I find that really elitist and weird. I've got Flawless Conqueror both with and without Iceheart and could not possibly care less how other people get the achievement. If someone can do it (themselves, obviously I'm not talking about people who pay others to log into their account and run for them) then good on them- period.

What are requirements for damen magic ? Wasting 1 skill slot , spending resources to use it , spending time to use it. What are requirements for Iceheart ? Changing 1 piece of Your gear. Do You find those requirements comparable ? I dont. Iceheart is clear winner here. it may give slightly smaller shield at the end but shield is granted to You passively withut You spending time or resources to cast it which results with more damage on average to be absorbed by Iceheart then by dampen magic in real content and with more damage dealt by You because You dont have to spend time and resources on casting shield. That is where Iceheart uniqueness comes from.

I am not saying that idea of helping people to survive is bad. I am saying that everything have reasonable limits. And Iceheart as it is on live server is beyond those limits. I am not happy with this new monster set. I just pointed out it may help templars at best and for everyone else it'll be "meh" because of proc conditions. You tend to see objective facts as subjective opinions here. And You're right , You don't get it. You're also perfect example of people not getting that game should not only be balanced inbetween players and their interactions with other players but also inbetween PvE mobs and players. Having PvE too easy is not good for the game. I am not saying people are worthy or unworthy of something. I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios. I dont care of what people can achieve and how. I care about game balance and Iceheart as it is right now on live server is not balanced. And if You would read fully my comments about this subject You would by now know why.

Hurbster

Again, how many times to we have to state that Iceheart sacrifices damage for protection ? That's the point of it. And how come it's taken FOUR YEARS for the devs to not like it ?

I think we all know the answer to that.

Dusk_Coven

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Also do You know what word "example" means ? Because I gave just an example of pinaccle use of that set. Example that shows how usefull Iceheart is not only in that 1 type of content but everywhere where extra defense is usefull for DD with vBRP being best example of that. But it's not limited to vBRP it's also very usefull in 4 man dungeons , 12 man trials and in vMA. Everywhere where for many different reasons You will need some extra defense on DD that set is beating every other option.

Obviously it's useful -- otherwise why would people use it. (Or do people go around picking sets they don't feel is useful?)
And simply being widely useful isn't necessarily cause for nerfing or pointing to it as being overpowered. Might as well nerf every set that is popular then. Go through all the meta builds and systematically nerf every set that's mentioned.
Which would make other sets become popular. Then they'd get nerfed too. Keep going round and round and we might as well take sets out completely.
Popular sets are popular because they are widely useful. (Duh).

Another problem with your example is that there are too many variables. No one thing is so supremely important especially when it's group content -- what your teammates are using is important too. What about other commonalities in that team? And maybe they also deliberately spread the work by deliberately choosing different things. Just wearing Iceheart doesn't win you the game but you pick it out as if it were.
If it were so critical to choose this set, everyone other than roleplayers who insist on a particular power fantasy for their toons would wear it. Maybe there's a reason people don't all wear it all the time?

Finally... "pinnacle use of that set"? If a team deliberately focusses on one activity, optimizes for that one activity... Yeah they're good at that one activity. Which makes it NICHE. And that is hardly a useful comparison when determining whether something needs and adjustment for the game at large. Your example doesn't seem particularly useful at all.

Popularity cannot be the criteria for an adjustment.
Neither can usefulness -- because all sets are supposed to be useful.
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios.

Or maybe Iceheart fills a niche for various builds and there needs to be MORE sets like Iceheart. Maybe it's just so innovative and unique that obviously there are no comparable sets -- and maybe there should be more sets like it.

Juhasow

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Also do You know what word "example" means ? Because I gave just an example of pinaccle use of that set. Example that shows how usefull Iceheart is not only in that 1 type of content but everywhere where extra defense is usefull for DD with vBRP being best example of that. But it's not limited to vBRP it's also very usefull in 4 man dungeons , 12 man trials and in vMA. Everywhere where for many different reasons You will need some extra defense on DD that set is beating every other option.

Obviously it's useful -- otherwise why would people use it. (Or do people go around picking sets they don't feel is useful?)
And simply being widely useful isn't necessarily cause for nerfing or pointing to it as being overpowered. Might as well nerf every set that is popular then. Go through all the meta builds and systematically nerf every set that's mentioned.
Which would make other sets become popular. Then they'd get nerfed too. Keep going round and round and we might as well take sets out completely.
Popular sets are popular because they are widely useful. (Duh).

Another problem with your example is that there are too many variables. No one thing is so supremely important especially when it's group content -- what your teammates are using is important too. What about other commonalities in that team? And maybe they also deliberately spread the work by deliberately choosing different things. Just wearing Iceheart doesn't win you the game but you pick it out as if it were.
If it were so critical to choose this set, everyone other than roleplayers who insist on a particular power fantasy for their toons would wear it. Maybe there's a reason people don't all wear it all the time?

Finally... "pinnacle use of that set"? If a team deliberately focusses on one activity, optimizes for that one activity... Yeah they're good at that one activity. Which makes it NICHE. And that is hardly a useful comparison when determining whether something needs and adjustment for the game at large. Your example doesn't seem particularly useful at all.

Popularity cannot be the criteria for an adjustment.
Neither can usefulness -- because all sets are supposed to be useful.
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios.

Or maybe Iceheart fills a niche for various builds and there needs to be MORE sets like Iceheart.

Being usefull is not equal to being balanced. And I am not discussing usefulness of Iceheart but the fact that it's overtuned. It's obvious overtuned set will be usefull. Iceheart is so overtuned that it makes other similar sets both from DLC and base game content look like garbage. People compare it to combat physician and ask why others dont run combat physician for example and answer is simple. Because Iceheart is way better. You can bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use in PvE and Iceheart will literally demolish that set in comparison. You and many others seem to fail to understand that usefulness is not constant term. There can be 2 sets that are both described as usefull but effectiveness of one of them will be way higher then effectiveness of second one. Usefulness have its own levels. Iceheart is beyond those levels at this point. Balance is all about keeping usefulness of sets within certain range , not too weak but also not too strong. Iceheart is too strong. And it's popular because of that.

Variables may differ but Iceheart is strong despite all of them. With certain variables it'll be stronger with other it'll be weaker but in every case it'll outclass sets with similar use. yes I agree Iceheart wont win the game for You. But it'll make it way way easier. Let me show You what I am talking about because it looks like people here on forum have no idea what they're talking about so lets bring some numbers into the table.

Here is the vBRP I did with my team couple of months ago. At that time it was worlds best score. Were were 3 magplars all running with iceheart in most of the rounds. This is how much damage we've taken during our run



This is how much Iceheart absorbed during that run



So on average each one of us took ~1,5M damage on DD and Iceheart on average absorbed ~600k out of that. That is 40% damage mitigation provided by second piece of monster set. 40% ! Can You even find one other set in the game that can increase any aspect of the setup by that much ? I challenge You to name atleast one set defensive or offensive that can come close to that. Relequen for DDs is sometimes called OP by many people and it's responsible for 10-12% DPS and here we have set responsible for 40% of avoided damage. If there would be a set that increases someones DPS by 40% that set would be called OP right away. Yet somehow people are trying to tell that increasing defense by that much with 1 piece of item is fine ? And this is 40% damage mitigation for group made of people that perfectly know that particular content and know how to avoid most of the damage. For less experienced players that value would go up to 60%+. Like are people even aware what does that mean or everyone's knowledge of base math dropped to zero ?

Iceheart is not a niche set. It's commonly used in every type of PvE content solo or group one. So unless You're suggesting PvE is niche in this game Iceheart is not a niche set. And You don't understand my example at all. My example shows that even in pinnacle of content Iceheart can be usefull and that means for everything else it'll be evn more usefull because if more experienced players can find use for that set that means less experienced players will find even bigger use for it. And that makes it set that most of mag DDs already have in their inventory. Something opposite to a niche set.

Sorry but Your arguments are flawed. Popularity is not a criteria for an adjustment. it's rather a proff that something is not useless or weak and because of that there is possibility it can be overtuned. "Can be" not "definietly is" overtuned. Seeing usefulness as one constant term is fundamentally flawed because as I said already usefulness is a range rather then a constant. Range that requires to be monitored. When things are going way under that range they become useless but when they're going too high above that range they become overtuned. Iceheart is above that range currently. People just complain less when things are above that range and everyone benefits from that. But balance still exist. And it demands to keep things in check because overtuned things may be sometimes more dangerous for the health of the game then weak ones.

Altyrann

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Also do You know what word "example" means ? Because I gave just an example of pinaccle use of that set. Example that shows how usefull Iceheart is not only in that 1 type of content but everywhere where extra defense is usefull for DD with vBRP being best example of that. But it's not limited to vBRP it's also very usefull in 4 man dungeons , 12 man trials and in vMA. Everywhere where for many different reasons You will need some extra defense on DD that set is beating every other option.

Obviously it's useful -- otherwise why would people use it. (Or do people go around picking sets they don't feel is useful?)
And simply being widely useful isn't necessarily cause for nerfing or pointing to it as being overpowered. Might as well nerf every set that is popular then. Go through all the meta builds and systematically nerf every set that's mentioned.
Which would make other sets become popular. Then they'd get nerfed too. Keep going round and round and we might as well take sets out completely.
Popular sets are popular because they are widely useful. (Duh).

Another problem with your example is that there are too many variables. No one thing is so supremely important especially when it's group content -- what your teammates are using is important too. What about other commonalities in that team? And maybe they also deliberately spread the work by deliberately choosing different things. Just wearing Iceheart doesn't win you the game but you pick it out as if it were.
If it were so critical to choose this set, everyone other than roleplayers who insist on a particular power fantasy for their toons would wear it. Maybe there's a reason people don't all wear it all the time?

Finally... "pinnacle use of that set"? If a team deliberately focusses on one activity, optimizes for that one activity... Yeah they're good at that one activity. Which makes it NICHE. And that is hardly a useful comparison when determining whether something needs and adjustment for the game at large. Your example doesn't seem particularly useful at all.

Popularity cannot be the criteria for an adjustment.
Neither can usefulness -- because all sets are supposed to be useful.
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios.

Or maybe Iceheart fills a niche for various builds and there needs to be MORE sets like Iceheart.

Being usefull is not equal to being balanced. And I am not discussing usefulness of Iceheart but the fact that it's overtuned. It's obvious overtuned set will be usefull. Iceheart is so overtuned that it makes other similar sets both from DLC and base game content look like garbage. People compare it to combat physician and ask why others dont run combat physician for example and answer is simple. Because Iceheart is way better. You can bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use in PvE and Iceheart will literally demolish that set in comparison. You and many others seem to fail to understand that usefulness is not constant term. There can be 2 sets that are both described as usefull but effectiveness of one of them will be way higher then effectiveness of second one. Usefulness have its own levels. Iceheart is beyond those levels at this point. Balance is all about keeping usefulness of sets within certain range , not too weak but also not too strong. Iceheart is too strong. And it's popular because of that.

Variables may differ but Iceheart is strong despite all of them. With certain variables it'll be stronger with other it'll be weaker but in every case it'll outclass sets with similar use. yes I agree Iceheart wont win the game for You. But it'll make it way way easier. Let me show You what I am talking about because it looks like people here on forum have no idea what they're talking about so lets bring some numbers into the table.

Here is the vBRP I did with my team couple of months ago. At that time it was worlds best score. Were were 3 magplars all running with iceheart in most of the rounds. This is how much damage we've taken during our run



This is how much Iceheart absorbed during that run



So on average each one of us took ~1,5M damage on DD and Iceheart on average absorbed ~600k out of that. That is 40% damage mitigation provided by second piece of monster set. 40% ! Can You even find one other set in the game that can increase any aspect of the setup by that much ? I challenge You to name atleast one set defensive or offensive that can come close to that. Relequen for DDs is sometimes called OP by many people and it's responsible for 10-12% DPS and here we have set responsible for 40% of avoided damage. If there would be a set that increases someones DPS by 40% that set would be called OP right away. Yet somehow people are trying to tell that increasing defense by that much with 1 piece of item is fine ? And this is 40% damage mitigation for group made of people that perfectly know that particular content and know how to avoid most of the damage. For less experienced players that value would go up to 60%+. Like are people even aware what does that mean or everyone's knowledge of base math dropped to zero ?

Iceheart is not a niche set. It's commonly used in every type of PvE content solo or group one. So unless You're suggesting PvE is niche in this game Iceheart is not a niche set. And You don't understand my example at all. My example shows that even in pinnacle of content Iceheart can be usefull and that means for everything else it'll be evn more usefull because if more experienced players can find use for that set that means less experienced players will find even bigger use for it. And that makes it set that most of mag DDs already have in their inventory. Something opposite to a niche set.

Sorry but Your arguments are flawed. Popularity is not a criteria for an adjustment. it's rather a proff that something is not useless or weak and because of that there is possibility it can be overtuned. "Can be" not "definietly is" overtuned. Seeing usefulness as one constant term is fundamentally flawed because as I said already usefulness is a range rather then a constant. Range that requires to be monitored. When things are going way under that range they become useless but when they're going too high above that range they become overtuned. Iceheart is above that range currently. People just complain less when things are above that range and everyone benefits from that. But balance still exist. And it demands to keep things in check because overtuned things may be sometimes more dangerous for the health of the game then weak ones.

If you have a group that knows the place well and is taking relatively low damage, then yes, the shield which will absorb before there is any impact on your health bar will show a high % impact. The 40% feels like a bit of a red herring without knowing how much of that would have been covered by (over)healing if the shield was not in place and whether that absorb is happening during damage spikes which might otherwise have killed you (somewhat limited by shield size, cooldown and independence from block), or was just padding against low sustained damage. All of that, of course, before considering what swapping to 3 additional 2pc monster set bonuses would allow a group to do in terms of burning things before mechanics, additional healing or mitigation etc.

heaven13

Let's also not forget that the average group of players (even the above average, who are completing harder content but not doing Godslayer or GH or TTT or Unchained) are not running 3dps, especially in places like vBRP. The game cannot and should not be balanced around the top tiny percentage of players completing content.

And one of your templars literally has a name for something that has been complained about far more often than Iceheart.

Stevie6

I would like a response from the devs on this. What other five piece sets and weapons are people using with iceheart while running trials and vma? I would like to know. Who really cares about top score. More power to those individuals that can do that. The question that average joe casual player is going to ask, “what other monster sets are on the chopping block?”

Mighty chundan too strong
Zaans too strong
Illambris too strong
Valkin Skoria too strong

Why run dungeons if monster sets get nerfed? Why not make 7 piece overland or craftable sets? That might be a more viable solution. If you want something like an added booster earned from a dungeon, then add an additional slot above the character for some type of effect, dmg mod, etc. it might make for interesting builds. But to nerf an old set to promote another is just wrong.

Juhasow

Altyrann wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Also do You know what word "example" means ? Because I gave just an example of pinaccle use of that set. Example that shows how usefull Iceheart is not only in that 1 type of content but everywhere where extra defense is usefull for DD with vBRP being best example of that. But it's not limited to vBRP it's also very usefull in 4 man dungeons , 12 man trials and in vMA. Everywhere where for many different reasons You will need some extra defense on DD that set is beating every other option.

Obviously it's useful -- otherwise why would people use it. (Or do people go around picking sets they don't feel is useful?)
And simply being widely useful isn't necessarily cause for nerfing or pointing to it as being overpowered. Might as well nerf every set that is popular then. Go through all the meta builds and systematically nerf every set that's mentioned.
Which would make other sets become popular. Then they'd get nerfed too. Keep going round and round and we might as well take sets out completely.
Popular sets are popular because they are widely useful. (Duh).

Another problem with your example is that there are too many variables. No one thing is so supremely important especially when it's group content -- what your teammates are using is important too. What about other commonalities in that team? And maybe they also deliberately spread the work by deliberately choosing different things. Just wearing Iceheart doesn't win you the game but you pick it out as if it were.
If it were so critical to choose this set, everyone other than roleplayers who insist on a particular power fantasy for their toons would wear it. Maybe there's a reason people don't all wear it all the time?

Finally... "pinnacle use of that set"? If a team deliberately focusses on one activity, optimizes for that one activity... Yeah they're good at that one activity. Which makes it NICHE. And that is hardly a useful comparison when determining whether something needs and adjustment for the game at large. Your example doesn't seem particularly useful at all.

Popularity cannot be the criteria for an adjustment.
Neither can usefulness -- because all sets are supposed to be useful.
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios.

Or maybe Iceheart fills a niche for various builds and there needs to be MORE sets like Iceheart.

Being usefull is not equal to being balanced. And I am not discussing usefulness of Iceheart but the fact that it's overtuned. It's obvious overtuned set will be usefull. Iceheart is so overtuned that it makes other similar sets both from DLC and base game content look like garbage. People compare it to combat physician and ask why others dont run combat physician for example and answer is simple. Because Iceheart is way better. You can bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use in PvE and Iceheart will literally demolish that set in comparison. You and many others seem to fail to understand that usefulness is not constant term. There can be 2 sets that are both described as usefull but effectiveness of one of them will be way higher then effectiveness of second one. Usefulness have its own levels. Iceheart is beyond those levels at this point. Balance is all about keeping usefulness of sets within certain range , not too weak but also not too strong. Iceheart is too strong. And it's popular because of that.

Variables may differ but Iceheart is strong despite all of them. With certain variables it'll be stronger with other it'll be weaker but in every case it'll outclass sets with similar use. yes I agree Iceheart wont win the game for You. But it'll make it way way easier. Let me show You what I am talking about because it looks like people here on forum have no idea what they're talking about so lets bring some numbers into the table.

Here is the vBRP I did with my team couple of months ago. At that time it was worlds best score. Were were 3 magplars all running with iceheart in most of the rounds. This is how much damage we've taken during our run



This is how much Iceheart absorbed during that run



So on average each one of us took ~1,5M damage on DD and Iceheart on average absorbed ~600k out of that. That is 40% damage mitigation provided by second piece of monster set. 40% ! Can You even find one other set in the game that can increase any aspect of the setup by that much ? I challenge You to name atleast one set defensive or offensive that can come close to that. Relequen for DDs is sometimes called OP by many people and it's responsible for 10-12% DPS and here we have set responsible for 40% of avoided damage. If there would be a set that increases someones DPS by 40% that set would be called OP right away. Yet somehow people are trying to tell that increasing defense by that much with 1 piece of item is fine ? And this is 40% damage mitigation for group made of people that perfectly know that particular content and know how to avoid most of the damage. For less experienced players that value would go up to 60%+. Like are people even aware what does that mean or everyone's knowledge of base math dropped to zero ?

Iceheart is not a niche set. It's commonly used in every type of PvE content solo or group one. So unless You're suggesting PvE is niche in this game Iceheart is not a niche set. And You don't understand my example at all. My example shows that even in pinnacle of content Iceheart can be usefull and that means for everything else it'll be evn more usefull because if more experienced players can find use for that set that means less experienced players will find even bigger use for it. And that makes it set that most of mag DDs already have in their inventory. Something opposite to a niche set.

Sorry but Your arguments are flawed. Popularity is not a criteria for an adjustment. it's rather a proff that something is not useless or weak and because of that there is possibility it can be overtuned. "Can be" not "definietly is" overtuned. Seeing usefulness as one constant term is fundamentally flawed because as I said already usefulness is a range rather then a constant. Range that requires to be monitored. When things are going way under that range they become useless but when they're going too high above that range they become overtuned. Iceheart is above that range currently. People just complain less when things are above that range and everyone benefits from that. But balance still exist. And it demands to keep things in check because overtuned things may be sometimes more dangerous for the health of the game then weak ones.

If you have a group that knows the place well and is taking relatively low damage, then yes, the shield which will absorb before there is any impact on your health bar will show a high % impact. The 40% feels like a bit of a red herring without knowing how much of that would have been covered by (over)healing if the shield was not in place and whether that absorb is happening during damage spikes which might otherwise have killed you (somewhat limited by shield size, cooldown and independence from block), or was just padding against low sustained damage. All of that, of course, before considering what swapping to 3 additional 2pc monster set bonuses would allow a group to do in terms of burning things before mechanics, additional healing or mitigation etc.

As I've said already group that is less experienced would find Iceheart even more usefull and it would absord even more damage plus would save them way often from damage spikes and would reach like 60% of absorbed damage. For us Iceheart was just helping to improve the score. For less experienced groups Iceheart can be a difference between completing and not completing arena because of how powerfull it is. And even if You would shave half of the damage Iceheart absorbed due to potential overhealing etc it would be still stronger then any other set because it starts so high. Fact that there is low impact on Your health bar helps a lot and allows for maximizing DPS in situations where there is no healer or weak healer. Do You think that groups going for high scores would use Iceheart over offensive sets if offensive sets would give more DPS ? But ironically Iceheart is used partially as offensive set. There are situations where Iceheart can give You more DPS then other offensive sets simply because You do not have to care and spend time to survive mechanics so You can go with full nuke mode ignoring lots of mechanics and focusing purely on damage. Without Iceheart it would be way harder to achieve.

Juhasow

heaven13 wrote: »

Let's also not forget that the average group of players (even the above average, who are completing harder content but not doing Godslayer or GH or TTT or Unchained) are not running 3dps, especially in places like vBRP. The game cannot and should not be balanced around the top tiny percentage of players completing content.

And one of your templars literally has a name for something that has been complained about far more often than Iceheart.

Vet BRP with 3DD is just an example. But it's not the only place where Iceheart is used. It's used commonly even in groups that have healers if healers are not experienced enough yet. Personally for example when I am going to help in some pug run vet trial I am using Iceheart because it's way better then anything else.

Joy_Division

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Also do You know what word "example" means ? Because I gave just an example of pinaccle use of that set. Example that shows how usefull Iceheart is not only in that 1 type of content but everywhere where extra defense is usefull for DD with vBRP being best example of that. But it's not limited to vBRP it's also very usefull in 4 man dungeons , 12 man trials and in vMA. Everywhere where for many different reasons You will need some extra defense on DD that set is beating every other option.

Obviously it's useful -- otherwise why would people use it. (Or do people go around picking sets they don't feel is useful?)
And simply being widely useful isn't necessarily cause for nerfing or pointing to it as being overpowered. Might as well nerf every set that is popular then. Go through all the meta builds and systematically nerf every set that's mentioned.
Which would make other sets become popular. Then they'd get nerfed too. Keep going round and round and we might as well take sets out completely.
Popular sets are popular because they are widely useful. (Duh).

Another problem with your example is that there are too many variables. No one thing is so supremely important especially when it's group content -- what your teammates are using is important too. What about other commonalities in that team? And maybe they also deliberately spread the work by deliberately choosing different things. Just wearing Iceheart doesn't win you the game but you pick it out as if it were.
If it were so critical to choose this set, everyone other than roleplayers who insist on a particular power fantasy for their toons would wear it. Maybe there's a reason people don't all wear it all the time?

Finally... "pinnacle use of that set"? If a team deliberately focusses on one activity, optimizes for that one activity... Yeah they're good at that one activity. Which makes it NICHE. And that is hardly a useful comparison when determining whether something needs and adjustment for the game at large. Your example doesn't seem particularly useful at all.

Popularity cannot be the criteria for an adjustment.
Neither can usefulness -- because all sets are supposed to be useful.
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios.

Or maybe Iceheart fills a niche for various builds and there needs to be MORE sets like Iceheart.

Being usefull is not equal to being balanced. And I am not discussing usefulness of Iceheart but the fact that it's overtuned. It's obvious overtuned set will be usefull. Iceheart is so overtuned that it makes other similar sets both from DLC and base game content look like garbage. People compare it to combat physician and ask why others dont run combat physician for example and answer is simple. Because Iceheart is way better. You can bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use in PvE and Iceheart will literally demolish that set in comparison. You and many others seem to fail to understand that usefulness is not constant term. There can be 2 sets that are both described as usefull but effectiveness of one of them will be way higher then effectiveness of second one. Usefulness have its own levels. Iceheart is beyond those levels at this point. Balance is all about keeping usefulness of sets within certain range , not too weak but also not too strong. Iceheart is too strong. And it's popular because of that.

Variables may differ but Iceheart is strong despite all of them. With certain variables it'll be stronger with other it'll be weaker but in every case it'll outclass sets with similar use. yes I agree Iceheart wont win the game for You. But it'll make it way way easier. Let me show You what I am talking about because it looks like people here on forum have no idea what they're talking about so lets bring some numbers into the table.

Here is the vBRP I did with my team couple of months ago. At that time it was worlds best score. Were were 3 magplars all running with iceheart in most of the rounds. This is how much damage we've taken during our run



This is how much Iceheart absorbed during that run



So on average each one of us took ~1,5M damage on DD and Iceheart on average absorbed ~600k out of that. That is 40% damage mitigation provided by second piece of monster set. 40% ! Can You even find one other set in the game that can increase any aspect of the setup by that much ? I challenge You to name atleast one set defensive or offensive that can come close to that. Relequen for DDs is sometimes called OP by many people and it's responsible for 10-12% DPS and here we have set responsible for 40% of avoided damage. If there would be a set that increases someones DPS by 40% that set would be called OP right away. Yet somehow people are trying to tell that increasing defense by that much with 1 piece of item is fine ? And this is 40% damage mitigation for group made of people that perfectly know that particular content and know how to avoid most of the damage. For less experienced players that value would go up to 60%+. Like are people even aware what does that mean or everyone's knowledge of base math dropped to zero ?

Iceheart is not a niche set. It's commonly used in every type of PvE content solo or group one. So unless You're suggesting PvE is niche in this game Iceheart is not a niche set. And You don't understand my example at all. My example shows that even in pinnacle of content Iceheart can be usefull and that means for everything else it'll be evn more usefull because if more experienced players can find use for that set that means less experienced players will find even bigger use for it. And that makes it set that most of mag DDs already have in their inventory. Something opposite to a niche set.

Sorry but Your arguments are flawed. Popularity is not a criteria for an adjustment. it's rather a proff that something is not useless or weak and because of that there is possibility it can be overtuned. "Can be" not "definietly is" overtuned. Seeing usefulness as one constant term is fundamentally flawed because as I said already usefulness is a range rather then a constant. Range that requires to be monitored. When things are going way under that range they become useless but when they're going too high above that range they become overtuned. Iceheart is above that range currently. People just complain less when things are above that range and everyone benefits from that. But balance still exist. And it demands to keep things in check because overtuned things may be sometimes more dangerous for the health of the game then weak ones.

Not all damage is the same.

What tends to kill most people in the more difficult PvE content is not the constant ambient damage, but because they didn't follow the mechanics, stayed in red, didn;t do enough DPS and get overwhelmed by adds, or took a one-shot. Ice-Heart does help with the first or second or fourth, and is ambiguous on the third. This set is mitigating damage that isn't very threatening to a decent player/group who will have HoTs up. If this set was as OP as is being suggested, it would be all over PvP. I've tried in there. While it is useful to help shrug off some damage against some PuGs, the most dangerous opponents are akin to PvE bosses and will kill you by burst, something this set isn't very good at handling. It's why bloodspwan is the go to set because we live through that ambient damage anyway. Not all damage is the same.

If you are getting the world' highest score, the primary reason you aren't dying is because you have the mechanics memorized, you use add-ons telling you exactly when everything spawns and when mobs use their snipes, your DPS is the envy of 95% of the community and thus never are getting overwhelmed, and you're just really good at the game. I've had a guildmate who ran this set all the time and somehow they are the one were always needs a rez. It's not nearly the life-safer as being made out here because constant ambient damage is not very dangerous with how ZOS designs its PVE content.

At the end of the day, I couldn;t care less what ZOS does with this set because I don;t think it will make one iota of difference: good players who wore this still won't die and bad players who wore this still will die.

What does bother me, however, is the methodology ZOS is using to "balance" things. They are paying way too much attention to their spreadsheets and mathematical calculations and ignoring the context in which skills, sets, and abilities are being used and how they impact the game. All this mindset has done is homogenize the game, made it more boring, and make our abilities and the things we do have a less tangible impact on gameplay. And this set has been in the game for years - years! - and now all of a sudden they are going to nerf just when they release a monster set that attempts (terribly I might add) to replicate the same function. That's something I'd expect from a used car salesmen.

The_Lex

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Also do You know what word "example" means ? Because I gave just an example of pinaccle use of that set. Example that shows how usefull Iceheart is not only in that 1 type of content but everywhere where extra defense is usefull for DD with vBRP being best example of that. But it's not limited to vBRP it's also very usefull in 4 man dungeons , 12 man trials and in vMA. Everywhere where for many different reasons You will need some extra defense on DD that set is beating every other option.

Obviously it's useful -- otherwise why would people use it. (Or do people go around picking sets they don't feel is useful?)
And simply being widely useful isn't necessarily cause for nerfing or pointing to it as being overpowered. Might as well nerf every set that is popular then. Go through all the meta builds and systematically nerf every set that's mentioned.
Which would make other sets become popular. Then they'd get nerfed too. Keep going round and round and we might as well take sets out completely.
Popular sets are popular because they are widely useful. (Duh).

Another problem with your example is that there are too many variables. No one thing is so supremely important especially when it's group content -- what your teammates are using is important too. What about other commonalities in that team? And maybe they also deliberately spread the work by deliberately choosing different things. Just wearing Iceheart doesn't win you the game but you pick it out as if it were.
If it were so critical to choose this set, everyone other than roleplayers who insist on a particular power fantasy for their toons would wear it. Maybe there's a reason people don't all wear it all the time?

Finally... "pinnacle use of that set"? If a team deliberately focusses on one activity, optimizes for that one activity... Yeah they're good at that one activity. Which makes it NICHE. And that is hardly a useful comparison when determining whether something needs and adjustment for the game at large. Your example doesn't seem particularly useful at all.

Popularity cannot be the criteria for an adjustment.
Neither can usefulness -- because all sets are supposed to be useful.
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios.

Or maybe Iceheart fills a niche for various builds and there needs to be MORE sets like Iceheart.

Being usefull is not equal to being balanced. And I am not discussing usefulness of Iceheart but the fact that it's overtuned. It's obvious overtuned set will be usefull. Iceheart is so overtuned that it makes other similar sets both from DLC and base game content look like garbage. People compare it to combat physician and ask why others dont run combat physician for example and answer is simple. Because Iceheart is way better. You can bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use in PvE and Iceheart will literally demolish that set in comparison. You and many others seem to fail to understand that usefulness is not constant term. There can be 2 sets that are both described as usefull but effectiveness of one of them will be way higher then effectiveness of second one. Usefulness have its own levels. Iceheart is beyond those levels at this point. Balance is all about keeping usefulness of sets within certain range , not too weak but also not too strong. Iceheart is too strong. And it's popular because of that.

Variables may differ but Iceheart is strong despite all of them. With certain variables it'll be stronger with other it'll be weaker but in every case it'll outclass sets with similar use. yes I agree Iceheart wont win the game for You. But it'll make it way way easier. Let me show You what I am talking about because it looks like people here on forum have no idea what they're talking about so lets bring some numbers into the table.

Here is the vBRP I did with my team couple of months ago. At that time it was worlds best score. Were were 3 magplars all running with iceheart in most of the rounds. This is how much damage we've taken during our run



This is how much Iceheart absorbed during that run



So on average each one of us took ~1,5M damage on DD and Iceheart on average absorbed ~600k out of that. That is 40% damage mitigation provided by second piece of monster set. 40% ! Can You even find one other set in the game that can increase any aspect of the setup by that much ? I challenge You to name atleast one set defensive or offensive that can come close to that. Relequen for DDs is sometimes called OP by many people and it's responsible for 10-12% DPS and here we have set responsible for 40% of avoided damage. If there would be a set that increases someones DPS by 40% that set would be called OP right away. Yet somehow people are trying to tell that increasing defense by that much with 1 piece of item is fine ? And this is 40% damage mitigation for group made of people that perfectly know that particular content and know how to avoid most of the damage. For less experienced players that value would go up to 60%+. Like are people even aware what does that mean or everyone's knowledge of base math dropped to zero ?

Iceheart is not a niche set. It's commonly used in every type of PvE content solo or group one. So unless You're suggesting PvE is niche in this game Iceheart is not a niche set. And You don't understand my example at all. My example shows that even in pinnacle of content Iceheart can be usefull and that means for everything else it'll be evn more usefull because if more experienced players can find use for that set that means less experienced players will find even bigger use for it. And that makes it set that most of mag DDs already have in their inventory. Something opposite to a niche set.

Sorry but Your arguments are flawed. Popularity is not a criteria for an adjustment. it's rather a proff that something is not useless or weak and because of that there is possibility it can be overtuned. "Can be" not "definietly is" overtuned. Seeing usefulness as one constant term is fundamentally flawed because as I said already usefulness is a range rather then a constant. Range that requires to be monitored. When things are going way under that range they become useless but when they're going too high above that range they become overtuned. Iceheart is above that range currently. People just complain less when things are above that range and everyone benefits from that. But balance still exist. And it demands to keep things in check because overtuned things may be sometimes more dangerous for the health of the game then weak ones.

What does bother me, however, is the methodology ZOS is using to "balance" things. They are paying way too much attention to their spreadsheets and mathematical calculations and ignoring the context in which skills, sets, and abilities are being used and how they impact the game. All this mindset has done is homogenize the game, made it more boring, and make our abilities and the things we do have a less tangible impact on gameplay. And this set has been in the game for years - years! - and now all of a sudden they are going to nerf just when they release a monster set that attempts (terribly I might add) to replicate the same function. That's something I'd expect from a used car salesmen.

This could not be said any better! Thank you!

Dusk_Coven

Juhasow wrote: »

Vet BRP with 3DD is just an example. But it's not the only place where Iceheart is used. It's used commonly even in groups that have healers if healers are not experienced enough yet. Personally for example when I am going to help in some pug run vet trial I am using Iceheart because it's way better then anything else.

As DD I always have something defensive in my back pocket, even if it's a Shield skill because you just don't know if the healer is any good or if the tank is any good. So many times I'm the last one standing -- the other teammates were lousy, stood in red, etcetera.
But if they both did their roles well and I had a defensive set, then I'm the one who didn't do their job well because I could have output more damage.
So again Iceheart is great for NICHE builds and especially for people going SOLO in group content, but not "proper" builds nor the way the game is intended. That's why a lot of people DON'T wear Iceheart.

Dusk_Coven

Juhasow wrote: »

Being usefull is not equal to being balanced. And I am not discussing usefulness of Iceheart but the fact that it's overtuned. It's obvious overtuned set will be usefull. Iceheart is so overtuned that it makes other similar sets both from DLC and base game content look like garbage. People compare it to combat physician and ask why others dont run combat physician for example and answer is simple. Because Iceheart is way better. You can bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use in PvE and Iceheart will literally demolish that set in comparison.

Just because a set is good and popular doesn't automatically mean it's overtuned. That's a false assumption.
"bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use" -- also a vague argument. That's a NICHE requirement. Maybe because it's a NICHE requirement, there aren't a lot of choices?
When there aren't a lot of choices, obviously the ones remaining will be "the best". But that still doesn't point to them being overtuned.

If "good and popular" meant that, then we'd nerf all the good and popular sets. Then players would choose the next best option, then that'd get nerfed too. It's an utterly ridiculous criteria.

The ultimate criteria as to whether a set should be changed is the impact on the game. All the talk and numbers don't compare to 4 years in the system and no one complaining about it being suddenly overtuned or underpowered even with all the new sets that have been released after it debuted.

And being such a niche set for a play pattern that people are obviously interested in -- maybe it's time to introduce more sets for niche builds.

Lumenn

Whatever data they're using its just getting too much, especially in the last year. Nerfing, or "balancing" by king of the hill is bad and gets things no one cared about for YEARS nerfed simply because what was garbage is now the best. Nerfing, or "balancing" sets because you have to take away something to sell a trash set is even worse. Why run dungeons now? Why spend time on any toon? Zo$ keeps showing us they will destroy what works so you have to spend more time and hopefully $. Iceheart wasn't OP, but at this point I don't care if it was Godmode. It's getting old.

SidraWillowsky

Juhasow wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Iceheart is stronger then bloodspawn or troll king because of many different reasons. Namely because those other sets helps Your health bar when it takes damage when iceheart simply stops the damage from interacting with Your health bar. To proc bloodspan You need to take damage to proc troll king You need to heal Yourself while under 50% health. Comparing bloodspawn or troll king defensive strenghts to iceheart in PvE is laughable. Iceheart leaves both of those sets far behind. Guess which one of those 3 montster sets allows to survive 21k one shot mechanic when You have 20k health ? Iceheart is literally extending Your health bar by 9k. In PvE it can absorb sometimes more then 50% of incoming damage which means that damage will not affect Your health. It's like getting 50% damage mitigation bonus. There is no other monster set that can come close to that in PvE.

You realize that ALL shields do this, right? I'm not sure why you're acting like Iceheart is the only way to do this- Dampen Magicka, for example, caps out at 60% of max health, so if I'm running vMA with 18k health, that's an 11k damage shield. You're talking about this "health bar extension" like it's something unique to Iceheart.

Juhasow wrote: »

And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

Why on earth is this a problem? Do you think that the unworthy lowbs shouldn't have access to this because in your head they're not "worthy" of completing the content without what you deem this "crutch" set? IT'S A GOOD THING that EVERYONE has access to this. Are you happier with this new abomination of a monster set being introduced because it's only going to help templars? I don't get it. The fact that the unworthy are able to also beat vBRP is seemingly somehow not OK with you, and I find that really elitist and weird. I've got Flawless Conqueror both with and without Iceheart and could not possibly care less how other people get the achievement. If someone can do it (themselves, obviously I'm not talking about people who pay others to log into their account and run for them) then good on them- period.

What are requirements for damen magic ? Wasting 1 skill slot , spending resources to use it , spending time to use it. What are requirements for Iceheart ? Changing 1 piece of Your gear. Do You find those requirements comparable ? I dont. Iceheart is clear winner here. it may give slightly smaller shield at the end but shield is granted to You passively withut You spending time or resources to cast it which results with more damage on average to be absorbed by Iceheart then by dampen magic in real content and with more damage dealt by You because You dont have to spend time and resources on casting shield. That is where Iceheart uniqueness comes from.

I am not saying that idea of helping people to survive is bad. I am saying that everything have reasonable limits. And Iceheart as it is on live server is beyond those limits. I am not happy with this new monster set. I just pointed out it may help templars at best and for everyone else it'll be "meh" because of proc conditions. You tend to see objective facts as subjective opinions here. And You're right , You don't get it. You're also perfect example of people not getting that game should not only be balanced inbetween players and their interactions with other players but also inbetween PvE mobs and players. Having PvE too easy is not good for the game. I am not saying people are worthy or unworthy of something. I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios. I dont care of what people can achieve and how. I care about game balance and Iceheart as it is right now on live server is not balanced. And if You would read fully my comments about this subject You would by now know why.

The drop in DPS when I use Iceheart over another monster set is fairly steep. I do not have room on my bars for Dampen, so slotting that would mean having to remove a skill that I need on my bar. I DO think they're comparable in that there's tradeoff involved with each one.

And I feel like you're the one not getting it. World-best score runs with three magplar DDs is so far beyond what 99% of the player base does. You seem to be asking for balance based on that the tip top percentage of players can do. I'm not much of a PvPer, so I don't give a flying f*ck how sets affect a player's interaction with another player- I am talking 100% PvE here, which is of course player vs. mob.

Out of (genuine, not snarky) curiosity, how are you gauging the difficulty of PvE and drawing the conclusion that it's too easy?

Shantu

Joy_Division wrote: »

What does bother me, however, is the methodology ZOS is using to "balance" things. They are paying way too much attention to their spreadsheets and mathematical calculations and ignoring the context in which skills, sets, and abilities are being used and how they impact the game. All this mindset has done is homogenize the game, made it more boring, and make our abilities and the things we do have a less tangible impact on gameplay. And this set has been in the game for years - years! - and now all of a sudden they are going to nerf just when they release a monster set that attempts (terribly I might add) to replicate the same function. That's something I'd expect from a used car salesmen.

Boom! There you have the crux of the issue. I've been saying pretty much the same thing since they gutted shields. They don't seem to understand that "enjoyment" is not something that can be mathematically calculated and balanced on a spreadsheet.

Leave IceHeart alone. It hurts no one. It has no deleterious affect on the game. Let the people who use and enjoy it have their fun. What is so frigging hard about that to understand?

And if you don't care what your users enjoy and are just nerfing it to sell a new product? Well...that's a business model that will eventually come back to bite you.

Hurbster

I'll repeat. I have never raided. I have never done a trial or even pugged a 4 man dungeon. I have only PvP'd to get caltrops. I just want to play the way I have since beta. Experiencing the story content and exploring dungeons/killing world bosses at my pace.

I first got my Iceheart shoulders after One Tamriel dropped, and got the head piece as soon as it appeared on the Golden, since then it's been passed from character to character.

Please don't kill off the way I want to play because one of your DLC sets compares poorly to it. Or to use the official excuse, because about 0.001% of the player population uses it in a raid. And somehow sacrificing DPS for survivability seems to be likened to cheating.

Juhasow

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

That is why most of the top score teams running vBRP with 3DD have mag users wearing it. And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

A bunch of people who probably have vBRP memorized, know every mob that's coming, who probably optimized their class, skill, and gear loadout to get a high score... and you pick on ONE element of it and claim it's overpowered everywhere in the game.
Hmm...

Also do You know what word "example" means ? Because I gave just an example of pinaccle use of that set. Example that shows how usefull Iceheart is not only in that 1 type of content but everywhere where extra defense is usefull for DD with vBRP being best example of that. But it's not limited to vBRP it's also very usefull in 4 man dungeons , 12 man trials and in vMA. Everywhere where for many different reasons You will need some extra defense on DD that set is beating every other option.

Obviously it's useful -- otherwise why would people use it. (Or do people go around picking sets they don't feel is useful?)
And simply being widely useful isn't necessarily cause for nerfing or pointing to it as being overpowered. Might as well nerf every set that is popular then. Go through all the meta builds and systematically nerf every set that's mentioned.
Which would make other sets become popular. Then they'd get nerfed too. Keep going round and round and we might as well take sets out completely.
Popular sets are popular because they are widely useful. (Duh).

Another problem with your example is that there are too many variables. No one thing is so supremely important especially when it's group content -- what your teammates are using is important too. What about other commonalities in that team? And maybe they also deliberately spread the work by deliberately choosing different things. Just wearing Iceheart doesn't win you the game but you pick it out as if it were.
If it were so critical to choose this set, everyone other than roleplayers who insist on a particular power fantasy for their toons would wear it. Maybe there's a reason people don't all wear it all the time?

Finally... "pinnacle use of that set"? If a team deliberately focusses on one activity, optimizes for that one activity... Yeah they're good at that one activity. Which makes it NICHE. And that is hardly a useful comparison when determining whether something needs and adjustment for the game at large. Your example doesn't seem particularly useful at all.

Popularity cannot be the criteria for an adjustment.
Neither can usefulness -- because all sets are supposed to be useful.
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

Juhasow wrote: »

I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios.

Or maybe Iceheart fills a niche for various builds and there needs to be MORE sets like Iceheart.

Being usefull is not equal to being balanced. And I am not discussing usefulness of Iceheart but the fact that it's overtuned. It's obvious overtuned set will be usefull. Iceheart is so overtuned that it makes other similar sets both from DLC and base game content look like garbage. People compare it to combat physician and ask why others dont run combat physician for example and answer is simple. Because Iceheart is way better. You can bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use in PvE and Iceheart will literally demolish that set in comparison. You and many others seem to fail to understand that usefulness is not constant term. There can be 2 sets that are both described as usefull but effectiveness of one of them will be way higher then effectiveness of second one. Usefulness have its own levels. Iceheart is beyond those levels at this point. Balance is all about keeping usefulness of sets within certain range , not too weak but also not too strong. Iceheart is too strong. And it's popular because of that.

Variables may differ but Iceheart is strong despite all of them. With certain variables it'll be stronger with other it'll be weaker but in every case it'll outclass sets with similar use. yes I agree Iceheart wont win the game for You. But it'll make it way way easier. Let me show You what I am talking about because it looks like people here on forum have no idea what they're talking about so lets bring some numbers into the table.

Here is the vBRP I did with my team couple of months ago. At that time it was worlds best score. Were were 3 magplars all running with iceheart in most of the rounds. This is how much damage we've taken during our run



This is how much Iceheart absorbed during that run



So on average each one of us took ~1,5M damage on DD and Iceheart on average absorbed ~600k out of that. That is 40% damage mitigation provided by second piece of monster set. 40% ! Can You even find one other set in the game that can increase any aspect of the setup by that much ? I challenge You to name atleast one set defensive or offensive that can come close to that. Relequen for DDs is sometimes called OP by many people and it's responsible for 10-12% DPS and here we have set responsible for 40% of avoided damage. If there would be a set that increases someones DPS by 40% that set would be called OP right away. Yet somehow people are trying to tell that increasing defense by that much with 1 piece of item is fine ? And this is 40% damage mitigation for group made of people that perfectly know that particular content and know how to avoid most of the damage. For less experienced players that value would go up to 60%+. Like are people even aware what does that mean or everyone's knowledge of base math dropped to zero ?

Iceheart is not a niche set. It's commonly used in every type of PvE content solo or group one. So unless You're suggesting PvE is niche in this game Iceheart is not a niche set. And You don't understand my example at all. My example shows that even in pinnacle of content Iceheart can be usefull and that means for everything else it'll be evn more usefull because if more experienced players can find use for that set that means less experienced players will find even bigger use for it. And that makes it set that most of mag DDs already have in their inventory. Something opposite to a niche set.

Sorry but Your arguments are flawed. Popularity is not a criteria for an adjustment. it's rather a proff that something is not useless or weak and because of that there is possibility it can be overtuned. "Can be" not "definietly is" overtuned. Seeing usefulness as one constant term is fundamentally flawed because as I said already usefulness is a range rather then a constant. Range that requires to be monitored. When things are going way under that range they become useless but when they're going too high above that range they become overtuned. Iceheart is above that range currently. People just complain less when things are above that range and everyone benefits from that. But balance still exist. And it demands to keep things in check because overtuned things may be sometimes more dangerous for the health of the game then weak ones.

Not all damage is the same.

What tends to kill most people in the more difficult PvE content is not the constant ambient damage, but because they didn't follow the mechanics, stayed in red, didn;t do enough DPS and get overwhelmed by adds, or took a one-shot. Ice-Heart does help with the first or second or fourth, and is ambiguous on the third. This set is mitigating damage that isn't very threatening to a decent player/group who will have HoTs up. If this set was as OP as is being suggested, it would be all over PvP. I've tried in there. While it is useful to help shrug off some damage against some PuGs, the most dangerous opponents are akin to PvE bosses and will kill you by burst, something this set isn't very good at handling. It's why bloodspwan is the go to set because we live through that ambient damage anyway. Not all damage is the same.

If you are getting the world' highest score, the primary reason you aren't dying is because you have the mechanics memorized, you use add-ons telling you exactly when everything spawns and when mobs use their snipes, your DPS is the envy of 95% of the community and thus never are getting overwhelmed, and you're just really good at the game. I've had a guildmate who ran this set all the time and somehow they are the one were always needs a rez. It's not nearly the life-safer as being made out here because constant ambient damage is not very dangerous with how ZOS designs its PVE content.

At the end of the day, I couldn;t care less what ZOS does with this set because I don;t think it will make one iota of difference: good players who wore this still won't die and bad players who wore this still will die.

What does bother me, however, is the methodology ZOS is using to "balance" things. They are paying way too much attention to their spreadsheets and mathematical calculations and ignoring the context in which skills, sets, and abilities are being used and how they impact the game. All this mindset has done is homogenize the game, made it more boring, and make our abilities and the things we do have a less tangible impact on gameplay. And this set has been in the game for years - years! - and now all of a sudden they are going to nerf just when they release a monster set that attempts (terribly I might add) to replicate the same function. That's something I'd expect from a used car salesmen.

Lot of things You've said I already mentioned about in my previous comments. I also agree with many of Your point but have few objections.

Iceheart is not usefull in PvP because it's getting 50% cut in effectiveness there which is a big deal. PvP also lowers it's proc ratio due to different nature of dealing dmg in PvP and on average way lower crit chance on average PvP setup. In PvP when You're in defense You're unlikely dealing enough critical ticks of damage to proc iceheart reliably and when You're in offense then 4k shield will not change that much against enemy damage. There are also CPs and sets that increase dmg against targets with shield active. Bloodspawn on the other hand is as usefull or even more usefull in PvP then in PvE because in PvP there is no resistance cap and You'll take damage more often when in fight then in PvE so You have increased chance to proc it. I do agree that most of the deaths happens because of one shot mechanics or few mechanics dealing high damage in very short period of time. And iceheart help surviving lot of those encounters. It's not coincidence sometimes people trying to get achievemts like Immortal redeemer or similar ones choose to run with iceheart because it increases the chance that this 1 mistake made by that 1 person wont doom the whole run. I've seen for example vAS runs with decent players where Iceheart saved people from one shot mechanics where they would die otherwise.

Yes I do agree that people being able to get top scores at anything are simply better at most of things when it comes to participating in content but my point is if Iceheart helps even that group of people it can be even more usefull for less experienced players. And in mentioned by me vBRP example yes I could not die simply by knowing mechanics well and avoiding everything but Iceheart gives me freedom to ignore some of them and simply focus on doing damage , something I wouldn't be able to do without Iceheart or it would be way way harder and I would risk with death way more.

Personally I think set needed a nerf but 1sat iteration was too harsh. I am supporting balancing things but not gutting them.

Yes I do agree that ZoS's mindset of balancing things is mostly bad but I do think the sheer idea to tune down Iceheart was ok but how they managed to do it was wrong. It pretty much describes perfectly the issue ZoS have with balancing in general. They may have decent ideas and target right issues but their execution and how they change things is out of place.

Juhasow

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Being usefull is not equal to being balanced. And I am not discussing usefulness of Iceheart but the fact that it's overtuned. It's obvious overtuned set will be usefull. Iceheart is so overtuned that it makes other similar sets both from DLC and base game content look like garbage. People compare it to combat physician and ask why others dont run combat physician for example and answer is simple. Because Iceheart is way better. You can bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use in PvE and Iceheart will literally demolish that set in comparison.

Just because a set is good and popular doesn't automatically mean it's overtuned. That's a false assumption.
"bring any defensive set to the table that DD could use" -- also a vague argument. That's a NICHE requirement. Maybe because it's a NICHE requirement, there aren't a lot of choices?
When there aren't a lot of choices, obviously the ones remaining will be "the best". But that still doesn't point to them being overtuned.

If "good and popular" meant that, then we'd nerf all the good and popular sets. Then players would choose the next best option, then that'd get nerfed too. It's an utterly ridiculous criteria.

The ultimate criteria as to whether a set should be changed is the impact on the game. All the talk and numbers don't compare to 4 years in the system and no one complaining about it being suddenly overtuned or underpowered even with all the new sets that have been released after it debuted.

And being such a niche set for a play pattern that people are obviously interested in -- maybe it's time to introduce more sets for niche builds.

Do You ever read what I write or You just cherry pick pieces of it out of context to make Your arguments sound better ? I've already responded to all You claims in that post in my previous post when saying this

Popularity is not a criteria for an adjustment. it's rather a proff that something is not useless or weak and because of that there is possibility it can be overtuned. "Can be" not "definietly is" overtuned. Seeing usefulness as one constant term is fundamentally flawed because as I said already usefulness is a range rather then a constant. Range that requires to be monitored. When things are going way under that range they become useless but when they're going too high above that range they become overtuned. Iceheart is above that range currently. People just complain less when things are above that range and everyone benefits from that. But balance still exist. And it demands to keep things in check because overtuned things may be sometimes more dangerous for the health of the game then weak ones.

It looks like You still dont get that things are not just black or white and sets are not just good or bad. Good sets can be better or worse within the group called "good sets" and iceheart currently is at the top of that group.

Juhasow

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Iceheart is stronger then bloodspawn or troll king because of many different reasons. Namely because those other sets helps Your health bar when it takes damage when iceheart simply stops the damage from interacting with Your health bar. To proc bloodspan You need to take damage to proc troll king You need to heal Yourself while under 50% health. Comparing bloodspawn or troll king defensive strenghts to iceheart in PvE is laughable. Iceheart leaves both of those sets far behind. Guess which one of those 3 montster sets allows to survive 21k one shot mechanic when You have 20k health ? Iceheart is literally extending Your health bar by 9k. In PvE it can absorb sometimes more then 50% of incoming damage which means that damage will not affect Your health. It's like getting 50% damage mitigation bonus. There is no other monster set that can come close to that in PvE.

You realize that ALL shields do this, right? I'm not sure why you're acting like Iceheart is the only way to do this- Dampen Magicka, for example, caps out at 60% of max health, so if I'm running vMA with 18k health, that's an 11k damage shield. You're talking about this "health bar extension" like it's something unique to Iceheart.

Juhasow wrote: »

And if top players that perfectly knows their rotations and mechanics still choose that set it means it's even stronger for unexperienced players that are learning the game. That menas it's not only very strong but unlike many other sets it's very strong for everyone.

Why on earth is this a problem? Do you think that the unworthy lowbs shouldn't have access to this because in your head they're not "worthy" of completing the content without what you deem this "crutch" set? IT'S A GOOD THING that EVERYONE has access to this. Are you happier with this new abomination of a monster set being introduced because it's only going to help templars? I don't get it. The fact that the unworthy are able to also beat vBRP is seemingly somehow not OK with you, and I find that really elitist and weird. I've got Flawless Conqueror both with and without Iceheart and could not possibly care less how other people get the achievement. If someone can do it (themselves, obviously I'm not talking about people who pay others to log into their account and run for them) then good on them- period.

What are requirements for damen magic ? Wasting 1 skill slot , spending resources to use it , spending time to use it. What are requirements for Iceheart ? Changing 1 piece of Your gear. Do You find those requirements comparable ? I dont. Iceheart is clear winner here. it may give slightly smaller shield at the end but shield is granted to You passively withut You spending time or resources to cast it which results with more damage on average to be absorbed by Iceheart then by dampen magic in real content and with more damage dealt by You because You dont have to spend time and resources on casting shield. That is where Iceheart uniqueness comes from.

I am not saying that idea of helping people to survive is bad. I am saying that everything have reasonable limits. And Iceheart as it is on live server is beyond those limits. I am not happy with this new monster set. I just pointed out it may help templars at best and for everyone else it'll be "meh" because of proc conditions. You tend to see objective facts as subjective opinions here. And You're right , You don't get it. You're also perfect example of people not getting that game should not only be balanced inbetween players and their interactions with other players but also inbetween PvE mobs and players. Having PvE too easy is not good for the game. I am not saying people are worthy or unworthy of something. I am stating that Iceheart gives too much when compared to everything else used with similar purpose in similar scenarios. I dont care of what people can achieve and how. I care about game balance and Iceheart as it is right now on live server is not balanced. And if You would read fully my comments about this subject You would by now know why.

The drop in DPS when I use Iceheart over another monster set is fairly steep. I do not have room on my bars for Dampen, so slotting that would mean having to remove a skill that I need on my bar. I DO think they're comparable in that there's tradeoff involved with each one.

And I feel like you're the one not getting it. World-best score runs with three magplar DDs is so far beyond what 99% of the player base does. You seem to be asking for balance based on that the tip top percentage of players can do. I'm not much of a PvPer, so I don't give a flying f*ck how sets affect a player's interaction with another player- I am talking 100% PvE here, which is of course player vs. mob.

Out of (genuine, not snarky) curiosity, how are you gauging the difficulty of PvE and drawing the conclusion that it's too easy?

Tradeoff for wearing Iceheart is barely existant. Especially if Your goal is to not die in 1st place.

How many times I need to repeat. That vBRP run was just an example. it's like people dont know what "example" means. Do I need to now bring 20 more logs from different types of content made with different types of players just to prove my point ? And guess what all those logs will show similar results , low drop or even gain in DPS while getting high increase in defense. I am not asking for balance based on small percentage of the population. I am showing that Iceheart is usefull even for that small percentage that do not struggle with deaths that much so it's obvious it'll be even more usefull for everyone else. So usefull that is outclasses every other set in that category by a mile. Every set , base game or DLC one.

I never said in my comments that I find PvE in general being too easy. I've said that Iceheart is making surviving in PvE too easy. That's a big difference.

Olupajmibanan

Juhasow must have been paid royally for this Well earned!

Juhasow

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Juhasow must have been paid royally for this Well earned!

How did You know I was hired by unvaccinated aliens living on the bottom of flat earth ?

satanio

Juhasow wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Juhasow must have been paid royally for this Well earned!

How did You know I was hired by unvaccinated aliens living on the bottom of flat earth ?

Your commitment and your zeal about Icehearth is ‘too much’. Either you want to persuade others that what they think is wrong or either you won’t accept that what you think is wrong. Either way it starts to look like spam.

Let’s all wait for tomorrow patch. At this point, this discussion is a little bit pointless. Changes have been already made.

Olauron

Juhasow wrote: »

It looks like You still dont get that things are not just black or white and sets are not just good or bad. Good sets can be better or worse within the group called "good sets" and iceheart currently is at the top of that group.

If Iceheart is in a group of good sets but not in a group of best sets then it needs buffing. Nerfing a set because it is good and not even in the best group is absurd.

pklemming

@Juhasow

I am not sure what level of interaction you have with new players, but judging by your posts it seems to be quite low. We invite new people to our guild and try to help them get in to the game. There is a lot of content now, and far too many outdated guides.

As part of getting them in to the game, once they reach cp 160, we usually help them get some of the easier monster helms, one of which is Iceheart. This allows them to actually stay alive(a little more) while introducing them to different content and getting them used to game mechanics. They often still die, a lot, but this helps.

Just because you consider PVE content too easy, does not mean everyone considers or finds it easy. Changes to this, imo, hurts newer players more than anything else. ZoS should be doing everything possible to encourage these people to stay and spend money on the game. Their early experience to the game should not be the helm they use to help stay alive being nerfed.

In addition to that there are a lot of older players in this game and quite a lot with disabilities. This, again, helps them participate and attempt content they may not otherwise be able to do.

All ways around, I find this a stupid change, especially since it should have been the new helm changed to be more attractive, not the old helm neredf to make the new one desirable by contrast.

Woodoochill

Not happy about this change either - It took me months to find proper enjoyable PVP non-cp build with balanced survivability, sustain and dmg on magcro. I cant see this having effect on any other class except frostdens so why not nerf some other sets for stam users or magdks like bloodspawn.