Why nerf Iceheart?

Contaminate

NupidStoob wrote: »

TIL there is a huge amount of players that unironically think current Icehart is totally fine and not overperforming. One of the biggest crutch sets this game has ever seen.

It's mainly used on magicka classes which already have access to shields and are generally safer than stamina due to being ranged. Elsweyr brought us PFG which allows to sustain fine with bistat food which also means that the HP for magicka classes has gone up by 2-3k compared to before that. With Artaeum Pickled Fish Bowl every magicka DD has over 18K HP. Now add ebon and a warden healer to the group and everyone sits above 20K. With expansive frost cloak from warden healer and proper CP allocation you will also have over 20k resistances to the primary damage type of a trial as well as all the other ridiculous amounts of mitigation you get from having 270 points to spend into red CP.

Barrier got buffed to hit 12 people as well.

On top of all this you still want Iceheart which gives you a shield as strong or stronger than a regular magicka shield with autocast every 6-8 seconds as well as dealing half the damage grothdarr does.

All this stuff added together plus the huge amount of dps powercreep has made Immortal Redeemer, Tick Tock Tormentor and Gryphon Heart already total joke achievements. Yet ZoS is still nerfing trials as well regularly.

Despite all this people have the nerve to say that ZoS isn't holding the hands of casual players by bringing a ridiculous set like Iceheart more in line.

God forbid anyone uses defensive sets for defense amiright

Crutching on being shielded? Noob!

Crutching on having a healer? Casual baby!(/s)

Dagoth_Rac

NupidStoob wrote: »

TIL there is a huge amount of players that unironically think current Icehart is totally fine and not overperforming. One of the biggest crutch sets this game has ever seen.

It's mainly used on magicka classes which already have access to shields and are generally safer than stamina due to being ranged. Elsweyr brought us PFG which allows to sustain fine with bistat food which also means that the HP for magicka classes has gone up by 2-3k compared to before that. With Artaeum Pickled Fish Bowl every magicka DD has over 18K HP. Now add ebon and a warden healer to the group and everyone sits above 20K. With expansive frost cloak from warden healer and proper CP allocation you will also have over 20k resistances to the primary damage type of a trial as well as all the other ridiculous amounts of mitigation you get from having 270 points to spend into red CP.

Barrier got buffed to hit 12 people as well.

On top of all this you still want Iceheart which gives you a shield as strong or stronger than a regular magicka shield with autocast every 6-8 seconds as well as dealing half the damage grothdarr does.

All this stuff added together plus the huge amount of dps powercreep has made Immortal Redeemer, Tick Tock Tormentor and Gryphon Heart already total joke achievements. Yet ZoS is still nerfing trials as well regularly.

Despite all this people have the nerve to say that ZoS isn't holding the hands of casual players by bringing a ridiculous set like Iceheart more in line.

The kind of people wearing Iceheart are the kind of people who struggle to clear vMOL, not the kind of people getting high-end achievements. It's a, "maybe I can survive an extra round of adds on the Twins fight" set, not a no-death hard-mode speed-run set.

spartaxoxo

This is the greedist explanation I have ever heard. Instead of bringing the new content into line with Iceheart, you're simply going to merf so that we require the new set to accomplish things that are already so difficult that almost nobody is able to do it anyway.

Nobody complained about this set in either PvE or PvP. Literally nobody. This is just to sell your helmet and that's it. Nobody uses Phoenix because you nerfed it into the ground. Nobody uses your other crap because it's not functional and feels *** awful to use.

Banana

NupidStoob wrote: »

TIL there is a huge amount of players that unironically think current Icehart is totally fine and not overperforming. One of the biggest crutch sets this game has ever seen.

It's mainly used on magicka classes which already have access to shields and are generally safer than stamina due to being ranged. Elsweyr brought us PFG which allows to sustain fine with bistat food which also means that the HP for magicka classes has gone up by 2-3k compared to before that. With Artaeum Pickled Fish Bowl every magicka DD has over 18K HP. Now add ebon and a warden healer to the group and everyone sits above 20K. With expansive frost cloak from warden healer and proper CP allocation you will also have over 20k resistances to the primary damage type of a trial as well as all the other ridiculous amounts of mitigation you get from having 270 points to spend into red CP.

Barrier got buffed to hit 12 people as well.

On top of all this you still want Iceheart which gives you a shield as strong or stronger than a regular magicka shield with autocast every 6-8 seconds as well as dealing half the damage grothdarr does.

All this stuff added together plus the huge amount of dps powercreep has made Immortal Redeemer, Tick Tock Tormentor and Gryphon Heart already total joke achievements. Yet ZoS is still nerfing trials as well regularly.

Despite all this people have the nerve to say that ZoS isn't holding the hands of casual players by bringing a ridiculous set like Iceheart more in line.

Not everyone plays in a group.

mazeikeen

Just throwing my voice in here.

This nerf is completely uncalled for and the reasoning makes me absolutely sick. It didn't need a nerf, no one asked for this. In fact, it could have used a buff if anything. Who cares how in line it is with other sets if the people paying for the game aren't having fun with it? There's not even a decent alternative because the new monster set is garbage from a toilet.

Perhaps if ZOS employees keep talking about how strong Iceheart is they'll actually believe it, but no one else is fooled. Getting sick and tired of this "standardization."

TheUndeadAmulet

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.

That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.

First of all, thank you for actually responding to the thread, which is a lot more than you guys give other threads.

[Snip]

Iceheart was not a strong set, it was a useful set with a niche. Nobody was complaining about this set being strong. Maybe on the power spreadsheet it looked strong, but that was not the case. As many people have said already, this set was not used in any content as THE set you had to use. It wasn't even a viable alternative, with most monster sets that dealt real damage being used over it in PvE. In PvP, the proc conditions were too unreliable and the benefits too small for it be a reliable defensive option. The damage attached to it is so low, it's only really there for flavor.

But people still used the set, because these people had trouble staying alive and chose to change out their damage for survivability.

It was a niche set that nobody complained about that had stayed the same for years, and from the PoV of us players, the ZOS combat balance team NERFED the set, simply because a new monster set was worse. That looks like you guys are trying to coerce players to buy the new DLC by creating a problem (iceheart is bad) and offering a solution behind a paywall.

Mother Ciannait is still a bad set as well, no one will use it as the shield is too weak and requires using a channeled ability, which no class consistently uses except templars.

I honestly don't understand why the mother ciannait wasn't made into something useful, or even buffed. There is no good reason to nerf Iceheart, simple as that. All that has been offered are excuses.

EDIT: And no, offering small re-buffs is no way to the handle this. The set will still be worthless. Revert the nerf completely, and buff mother ciannait to the same level as iceheart on live.

[Edited for rude commentary]

tennyoelf

If they want to promote Greymoor and its new monster set, nerfing Iceheart is probably one of the worst ways to do it.

I'm the average player*. I don't do Vet DLC dungeons (I might do them once in a blue moon or for dye colors) nor do I do vet trials, but I do DLC dungeons and Trials on normal. I don't do meta builds because they aren't fun for me. Do I make sure to make the best build I can? Yeah, but it has to match my playstyle and be fun. I mean, I still use Mage's Wrath on my MagSorc because it vibes with my playstyle and it's fun for me. And I still do decent damage.

Do you know why I will be getting Greymoor? For the overland stuff, for the zone quests, to explore the new areas, and for the smallish/fun achievements. For Lyris! Not to grind for gear. If anything, nerfing Iceheart, which is something casual average player like me would use (but haven't yet, I'd plan to use it to try to...play more of the game, you know, keep playing the game), makes me feel less likely to buy Greymoor. It makes me less enthused overall about Greymoor.

Playstyles greatly vary from person to person, so why nerf Iceheart at all? Why not make the new monster set similar but different enough for different playstyles? Have the new set be a different version of Iceheart by making it just as good, but different enough for a different group of players to prefer one over the other, some like the new set, others the old? It provides more variety. It would make me, a non vet DLC dungeon player, curious enough to want to play the vet dungeon (once at least lol).

This honestly doesn't make sense to me, it's bad PR and makes players unnecessarily bitter. Just up the new set to be similar to Iceheart without touching it or touching it very little. I mean, leave the shield and proc time the same, get rid of the damage and instead have enemies chilled or something. Have the new set do the same as Iceheart except instead of chilling enemies have it restore mag or stam or something while it procs. One then becames a mini CC and the other good for sustain, it's use then depends on playstyle and character. It's an idea, I'm just throwing it out there as a example (not meant to be taken seriously).

*YMMV

James-Wayne

I HATE how they do this to SOLO players. Biggest pain point I have with the game is nerfing sets to force solo players into grinding for new solo sets in group content.

The new set is only for magicka players anyway where as Iceheart could at least be used for Stamina. Now Stamina has no defensive monster set with a shield at all.

Sad sad sad day.... will watch for next week but not expecting much.

SidraWillowsky

NupidStoob wrote: »

TIL there is a huge amount of players that unironically think current Icehart is totally fine and not overperforming. One of the biggest crutch sets this game has ever seen.

It's mainly used on magicka classes which already have access to shields and are generally safer than stamina due to being ranged. Elsweyr brought us PFG which allows to sustain fine with bistat food which also means that the HP for magicka classes has gone up by 2-3k compared to before that. With Artaeum Pickled Fish Bowl every magicka DD has over 18K HP. Now add ebon and a warden healer to the group and everyone sits above 20K. With expansive frost cloak from warden healer and proper CP allocation you will also have over 20k resistances to the primary damage type of a trial as well as all the other ridiculous amounts of mitigation you get from having 270 points to spend into red CP.

Barrier got buffed to hit 12 people as well.

On top of all this you still want Iceheart which gives you a shield as strong or stronger than a regular magicka shield with autocast every 6-8 seconds as well as dealing half the damage grothdarr does.

All this stuff added together plus the huge amount of dps powercreep has made Immortal Redeemer, Tick Tock Tormentor and Gryphon Heart already total joke achievements. Yet ZoS is still nerfing trials as well regularly.

Despite all this people have the nerve to say that ZoS isn't holding the hands of casual players by bringing a ridiculous set like Iceheart more in line.

TIL that there are a bunch of video game snobs who act like we're trying out for the Olympics. Thank god you're here to be the arbiter of what does and does not make a "legit" achievement.

And no, the players that are causing the power creep aren't the ones using Iceheart, not even close. It's comical that you think that power creep can be attributed to Iceheart. Come tell me how you're doing on your stam DDs when the precious Lokke + Rele combo gets nerfed and then we'll talk.

Ashfen

The answer given by ZoS is very disappointing. It looks like they didn't read the feedbacks or they don't care, idk, but in all the cases they didn't understand at all the problem.

Why would they do a nerf impacting so badly solo players on a set no one complains about ?
If the reason is really to force us to use the new set, it's stupid, i won't buy a DLC to get a set i can't even use on my warden. -_-'

I really don't understand this decision.

I don't often complain about the game but here i'm really upset.

Lumenn

I don't get it. They "looked at data" to nerf it so it's not better than the new set they want to sell us. Then they "looked at data" AND the uproar from the community, say tough cookies, and ok we'll do something different and drop it sometime next week so you won't get to test it much and be quiet about it until then? I KNOW I'm an EXTREMELY cynical old man so reaching out here for someone to explain it better because SURELY a company that deals with a community that's relies SO much on word of mouth, streamers, youtubers etc wouldn't be so OPENLY shady. I figure it's just my cynical aging brain after a bad day making me see the worst in things.

Dracane

I am surprised what a dramatic animation Mother Cyanide was given. It looks as though you were in god-form, although the only thing you gained was a meager 5k shield.

I fail to understand why defensive sets must be so weak and limited always. What is the harm in buffing Mother Cyanide while leaving Frostheart alone? One sacrifices alot of damage for dedication 2 gear pieces for a petty defensive set. Please take Bloodspawn as a baseline and get defensive monsters sets to the same level.

Frost</3

Imza

I believe that this is to "encourage" people to run the dlc dungeons. I see many people advertising that they want to do dungeons but NOT the dlc dungeons....

dmvab

I just want to say that I also really hate this nerf and it doesn't make any sense!
We do not need Mother Ciannait set, delete that and leave Iceheart alone!
What's the point creating a bad a new gear if you have to kill the best one?
Leave Iceheart the way it is!

Dojohoda

It's kind of like when they gutted the nightblade class and they did not realize that cloak had a one second duration for lowbie nightblades. My point is their lack of thoroughness when making these radical "adjustments"

Israel1948

Nobody:

Absolutely Nobody:

ZOS: "Wait, we have a monster set... that does a tiny amount of... *gulp* frost damage? NERF! NERF! NERF!"

SidraWillowsky

Imza wrote: »

I believe that this is to "encourage" people to run the dlc dungeons. I see many people advertising that they want to do dungeons but NOT the dlc dungeons....

And this is another issue! If you see that players aren't wanting to run the new dungeons you put out, I feel like the response should be "maybe we should work harder to create content that people actually enjoy and find at least semi-fun" vs. "let's make sure that the strongest sets come from this content so people will HAVE to run it if they want the BiS setup". It seems so backwards- the way they're doing things, people will run the content until they get what they need and never touch it again because it's such a drag to get through.

thadjarvis

@NupidStoob

In dungeon/arena it tends to get 1-2% DPS. A second Crit piece would give 2.5-3.5%. So, loosing 1-2% DPS for ~40-80% shield uptime. If it prevents a death once every 10-20min then it's worth it. Moreover, if mag and die more than a couple times an hour IH is likely the best option.

Though I'm not convinced that those players are doing the highest level achieves. They are mostly soloists, RPers, players just trying to straight clear a vDLC.

So, yes I agree that in a sense it is OP in mid-level gameplay. However, it is essentially one of the gateway drugs players can consume to get started in End-Game PvE. There's natural end-game player attrition. In order for ZoS to justify maintaining content difficulty (or slowing nerf-rate/power-progression) they have to have a customer base that will buy it. So, if IH helps more players to willingly into vDLC's

out less and if more of the playerbase doesn't get into end-game PvP and PvE, ZoS will respond by sharper reductions of content difficulty so that their customers will buy it.

It's a double-edged sword.

Totally with you on sustain. I think I loose a braincell when I hear about sustain issues. All I can think of is SK, SoB, FG, Hollow, Negative group cost orbs,....

Hymzir

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.

That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.

It's still a nonsense move. Parity between two sets cannot be expressed in numbers alone. There are always ephemeral considerations to take into account.

Comparing Ice Heart to the upcoming Mother Ciannait is pointless. They have different activation procedures, which in turn support different playstyles and classes. It is reckless to casually nerf Ice Heart to fit the numbers prerogative of some numinous arbitrary standards, without actually seeing how things play out.

Ice Heart was fine as it is. Its particular qualities make it an attractive choice in certain specific situations, and it is not causing any real or meaningful harm to anyone playing the game. It actually enriches the game by providing enjoyment, and an alternative option to the pursuit of ever larger DPS numbers.

The only people, seeing an issue with Ice Heart, are those, who just blindly stare at the numbers, without seeing the bigger picture. Nerfing it will not improve the gameplay experience to anyone, and all your blind dedication to faceless numbers is bringing about, is ruining the fun for some of your customers.

In fact, all this talk about power budgets, standardisation, and bringing stuff in line, reminds me of "Understanding Poetry" scene from Dead Poets Society.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjHORRHXtyI

The sensible thing to do, would've been to introduce the new set. Take note of the feedback provided, that its original incarnation was not strong enough, and tweak it a little. Leave Ice Heart well enough alone and let people play the game the way they want.

It takes a big heart for one to admit when one screws up, and the real question here is, do you at ZOS have that strength of character?

But as thigns stand out right now, I am not hearing much calls of "Oh Captain, my captain" directed towards the devs at ZOS.

Wa2p

This may have been posted before in this thread, and I missed it but:

I don't do vet dlc dungeons. I hardly do normal dlc dungeons. Neutering decent monster sets for the sake of dlc ales, not only makes me not want to buy them. But also, it means I'm playing less. I use Iceheart on two builds, two characters I play now. And if it gets wrecked? They get shelved. So I'm not going to be playing them, I'm not going to be farming sets for them. I'm not going to do anything, because why try new things when I'm going the shelve them for maybe two years if not forever? Neither of them could use the new monster set -- neither are Templars. So even waiting endlessly for it to show up in the Golden is useless.

In your post, if the purpose of this new set (that I don't care about, and wouldn't. i don't even know the last years DLC monster sets -- because I won't ever get them! Even if I wanted them? I wouldn't pay attention because I can't get them.) is to maximize breaking the shield, give it the 3000 points shield treatment, that way it's popping all over the place. Since one class can reliably use it, they can get the regen benefit. While us other people, who don't need that regen, don't want to figure out some random channeled ability, or just want a nice survivable shield. Can continue using our monster set. This isn't a matter of a "strong set" finally getting the axe -- this is the matter of a niche set being pillaged to cobble together another even more niche set.

So congrats on shelving two more of my characters. If I wasn't just doing a lot of fishing, my main would be retired as well, given how mad you all have destroyed magblades. If I count him I'm practically playing 3/17 characters?? I still haven't leveled a necro all the way because i don't know if it has a point? I can adapt, I can deal with changes -- but really this rotating door of shrugs and "y not?" from all of you is tiring, depressing, and frustrating. Even for a causal player who is cool doing the same quests over and over again, and is cool to do stick to normal dungeons. Its just depressing how happy you all seem to be with ostracizing players. At a certain point they'll give up and stop spending money, and the waves of new players will fade with time. What you're doing is not sustainable, and you have a chance now to fix it before it gets worse.

But you wont, because the now money is better than the sustainable money.

Xvorg

Tannus15 wrote: »

What will make Ciannait good? Your build has a channelled spammable. In a nut shell, you're a jabsplar. jabs with this is an aoe cone that heals and shields you.
Apart from that maybe a rapid strikes stam build might run this over ice heart for a vMA flawless.

Not only a shield, but a shield with minor protection

Sometimes I think ZoS wants to turn templars into the most hated class in this game

snoozy

Israel1948 wrote: »

Nobody:

Absolutely Nobody:

ZOS: "Wait, we have a monster set... that does a tiny amount of... *gulp* frost damage? NERF! NERF! NERF!"

they really do hate frost damage for whatever reason

*cries in magden frost tank*

Tannus15

Xvorg wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

What will make Ciannait good? Your build has a channelled spammable. In a nut shell, you're a jabsplar. jabs with this is an aoe cone that heals and shields you.
Apart from that maybe a rapid strikes stam build might run this over ice heart for a vMA flawless.

Not only a shield, but a shield with minor protection

Sometimes I think ZoS wants to turn templars into the most hated class in this game

I hate to say it, but this set really feels like someone who mains a jabsplar in PvP got to make up their dream monster set for themselves.

on another note:

Can we all agree at this point that if they just changed Kjalnar’s Nightmare to do ice damage instead of magic damage all the people sad about no frost themed damage monster sets would be instantly happier?
Suddenly this very average new monster set would become the frost damage monster set and a whole niche of people would suddenly give a *** about it?

snoozy

i love how this thread has now more views than the actual patch notes
and way more replies than all the other threads

goes to show zos you can't just *** over a large part of your playerbase without getting some backlash.

sometimes my faith in these forums is restored

OtarTheMad

snoozy wrote: »

Israel1948 wrote: »

Nobody:

Absolutely Nobody:

ZOS: "Wait, we have a monster set... that does a tiny amount of... *gulp* frost damage? NERF! NERF! NERF!"

they really do hate frost damage for whatever reason

*cries in magden frost tank*

Yeah, they have, I believe, 3 sets that do frost damage. Winterborn, Frozen Watcher and Icy Conjurer (last two both in DLC dungeons, Winterborn only available via Maelstrom Arena). Also can you really count Iceheart as frost damage? It's like 300 damage... I'm not counting it. I am also only counting sets that do some sort of extra frost damage as an effect, not ones that boost frost damage already in game.

Wish we had more frost sets.

iaminc

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.

That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.

I’m sorry but this is this just supposed to make us forget you guys are forcing a DLC set on those who like to run IH or the blatant financial reasons for doing it?

I appreciate the response which is a lot more than we usually get but the set wasn’t overpowered in any way and is simply being nerfed to be under preforming vs a paid dlc set plain and simple , it not in need of any attention from the Devs , there are so many issues that are plaguing ESO at present , maybe the team should focus on those things first before messing up things that don’t need attention.


Revert IH back and if you want to take anything away from the set then remove the damage from it to make it a 100% defence only set.

Sedrethi

Over the years I've read so many balance changes based on their "numbers" that were supposedly meant to allow more accessibility to content for all, broaden options, and allow you to play how you want, despite said changes very often doing the exact opposite: taking away or limiting options, shoehorning everyone into what is left to work with until that is inevitably nerfed for a new DLC/Chapter to sell to us.

I'm hardly even surprised anymore. This is definitely up there with some of the worst, shamelessly harmful balance changes they've done, and certainly one of the most unwarranted. Any more that I want to say has been summed up by the community here already.

Tannus15

@snoozy I want a frost version of skoria that drops a ice tornado like in sunspire. That would be an awesome frost monster set.

snoozy

OtarTheMad wrote: »

snoozy wrote: »

Israel1948 wrote: »

Nobody:

Absolutely Nobody:

ZOS: "Wait, we have a monster set... that does a tiny amount of... *gulp* frost damage? NERF! NERF! NERF!"

they really do hate frost damage for whatever reason

*cries in magden frost tank*

Yeah, they have, I believe, 3 sets that do frost damage. Winterborn, Frozen Watcher and Icy Conjurer (last two both in DLC dungeons, Winterborn only available via Maelstrom Arena). Also can you really count Iceheart as frost damage? It's like 300 damage... I'm not counting it. I am also only counting sets that do some sort of extra frost damage as an effect, not ones that boost frost damage already in game.

Wish we had more frost sets.

yep i don't count iceheart. i slot ysgramor.
but we do need more frost sets that are actually viable.
and don't have to be farmed in frostvault

Sanguinor2

Tannus15 wrote: »

I hate to say it, but this set really feels like someone who mains a jabsplar in PvP got to make up their dream monster set for themselves.

I dont think it will be stronger than a certain defensive set (that shall not be named to avoid nerfs) Mitigation wise.