Bad/clueless/unwilling to learn people in dungeons

Dusk_Coven

Tigerseye wrote: »

If you want to try to teach people, that is fine (to an extent), but you should't get angry with random people if they don't want to (or can't) listen to you.

Should(n't) is a tricky word most of the time.

Sure, people have the right to not listen or maybe they just can't learn.
But the rest of the team also has the right to not be forced to carry when they didn't volunteer to do so -- and I think that's part of what's irritating when people for example queue as fake tank or fake heal.
They are expecting to be carried.
They are expecting that the threat of losing time re-queueing is enough for the rest of the team to just roll along with the fact that they cheated by cutting ahead of the line of all the other dps legitimately queuing.
They are hoping that the rest of the team will be so over-competent that the group doesn't need a tank or heal.
And probably they are also hoping that there isn't someone else faking a role too because that would mean four dps and a higher possibility of just wiping even to a basic mob in the dungeon.

Same with elitist dps -- If someone is upset because the team can't burn through mechanics and just bails on them, they've wasted everyone's time, including their own, having to requeue or wait for a replacement. It's not always the lowest dps that is the problem. It's not even knowing/not knowing mechanics per se. It's a general lack of consideration. (And that said, everyone has different tolerance levels -- some people don't mind carrying so they don't care what the rest of the team is like).

Sure, the rest of the team can be EMPATHETIC and understand the player's situation. But they are NOT OBLIGED to be SYMpathetic either.
And being forced to waste time -- the most precious resource, one which can't be bought or refunded -- is unfair.

FearlessOne_2014

Easy moral of this thread is.... ~Don't queue with random PUGs if you demand a win!~ Pretty simple actually.

Rungar

the only sound way to make improvements is to change the dungeon model to something that is a little less dps-centric and a little more teamwork oriented. It can be done in eso .

since horns of the reach the game made the dungeons more like trials which feature heavy mechanics with a focus on dps and they have been an total failure that no one can defend No one likes them and few do them. Its because they dont work with the groupfinder which in eso is the primary mode of getting groups.

a different model is possible in eso that doesnt rely on overly mechanical boss fights but instead has global mechanics that players can work through to the best of their ability.

perhaps rather than the succeed or hard fail/ replacement cycle until you succeed the model lets you do your best and be rewarded based on that.

it would actually be a harder system to master because you cant just throw yourself at it until your fingers remember the routine. Thats really the only difference between a skilled player and a potato in eso. The dps system is a muscle memory system and the boss fights are the same.

you want to move away from that.

MattT1988

Rungar wrote: »

the only sound way to make improvements is to change the dungeon model to something that is a little less dps-centric and a little more teamwork oriented. It can be done in eso .

since horns of the reach the game made the dungeons more like trials which feature heavy mechanics with a focus on dps and they have been an total failure that no one can defend No one likes them and few do them. Its because they dont work with the groupfinder which in eso is the primary mode of getting groups.

a different model is possible in eso that doesnt rely on overly mechanical boss fights but instead has global mechanics that players can work through to the best of their ability.

perhaps rather than the succeed or hard fail/ replacement cycle until you succeed the model lets you do your best and be rewarded based on that.

it would actually be a harder system to master because you cant just throw yourself at it until your fingers remember the routine. Thats really the only difference between a skilled player and a potato in eso. The dps system is a muscle memory system and the boss fights are the same.

you want to move away from that.

Incorrect. There are plenty of people who like and enjoy the dungeon DLC’s. Myself included.

Don’t you dare ever speak for me.

Rungar

MattT1988 wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

the only sound way to make improvements is to change the dungeon model to something that is a little less dps-centric and a little more teamwork oriented. It can be done in eso .

since horns of the reach the game made the dungeons more like trials which feature heavy mechanics with a focus on dps and they have been an total failure that no one can defend No one likes them and few do them. Its because they dont work with the groupfinder which in eso is the primary mode of getting groups.

a different model is possible in eso that doesnt rely on overly mechanical boss fights but instead has global mechanics that players can work through to the best of their ability.

perhaps rather than the succeed or hard fail/ replacement cycle until you succeed the model lets you do your best and be rewarded based on that.

it would actually be a harder system to master because you cant just throw yourself at it until your fingers remember the routine. Thats really the only difference between a skilled player and a potato in eso. The dps system is a muscle memory system and the boss fights are the same.

you want to move away from that.

Incorrect. There are plenty of people who like and enjoy the dungeon DLC’s. Myself included.

Don’t you dare ever speak for me.

define plenty? Are they more popular than the base game dungeons or not. If they were on the right track they would be more popular but you cannot win this argument.

ii dont speak for you. I thought that was obvious.

witchdoctor

Rungar wrote: »

define plenty? Are they more popular than the base game dungeons or not. If they were on the right track they would be more popular but you cannot win this argument.

None of us have any numbers, clearly.

But can we agree that ZOS, as any business, is driven by its profit margin?

Considering then, they keep making the DLC dungeons, they are then popular.

Just because you and your echo chamber don't like them, doesn't mean they aren't popular.

I, too, enjoy them alot.

DLM

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Easy moral of this thread is.... ~Don't queue with random PUGs if you demand a win!~ Pretty simple actually.

People are seriously over-exaggerating the fail of PUGs. Even regarding vet DLC, more often that not everything goes fine with no wipe. I have unlocked all my no death runs (including vet DLC again) in PUGs and it wasn't a one time occurence.

Sure there are bad days where the PUG roulette gives you incompetent people over and over again but in general things get done. I think the time zone also weighs in... I usually play in the early morning or afernoon, the Australian game time, and runs are usually pretty smooth, whenever I have to play in the evening which I am being forced lately due to my schedule, things get a little hokey.

VaranisArano

Rungar wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

the only sound way to make improvements is to change the dungeon model to something that is a little less dps-centric and a little more teamwork oriented. It can be done in eso .

since horns of the reach the game made the dungeons more like trials which feature heavy mechanics with a focus on dps and they have been an total failure that no one can defend No one likes them and few do them. Its because they dont work with the groupfinder which in eso is the primary mode of getting groups.

a different model is possible in eso that doesnt rely on overly mechanical boss fights but instead has global mechanics that players can work through to the best of their ability.

perhaps rather than the succeed or hard fail/ replacement cycle until you succeed the model lets you do your best and be rewarded based on that.

it would actually be a harder system to master because you cant just throw yourself at it until your fingers remember the routine. Thats really the only difference between a skilled player and a potato in eso. The dps system is a muscle memory system and the boss fights are the same.

you want to move away from that.

Incorrect. There are plenty of people who like and enjoy the dungeon DLC’s. Myself included.

Don’t you dare ever speak for me.

define plenty? Are they more popular than the base game dungeons or not. If they were on the right track they would be more popular but you cannot win this argument.

ii dont speak for you. I thought that was obvious.

Well, there's a challenge we can't win.

It's obvious that DLC dungeons, which require people to pay or subscribe for them arent going to be as "popular" as the base game dungeons. That's just not going to happen. Duh. Sheer difference of numbers of who owns what.

So unfortunately, that statement doesn't prove what you think it does. Moreover, "Popular" doesnt mean as much as you think.

Fungal Grotto 1 is the most popular dungeon. Given a choice to exploit random dungeon rewards, that's the one players gravitate to. Its easy. Its fast because you can skip half the dungeon. It's simple stack 'n burn fights. It's the lowest effort for the greatest reward.


That's what "popular" means in terms of dungeons. Players, when given the choice of all rewards being equal, gravitate to the easiest, least challenging, quickest dungeon.

That doesn't mean that ZOS needs to embrace that and create new Fungal Grotto 1 style dungeons. Those would be "popular", but for all the wrong reasons.

The DLC dungeons are engaging, challenging, and offer multiple routes to completion - high DPS or teamwork - and ZOS keeps an eye on them and adjust fights they feel are too much of a roadblock for PUGs who struggle with both of those. Naturally, they are less popular than dungeons where players can put in less effort and get their random dungeon rewards easier.

Popularity is NOT always an effective measure of what's good dungeon design.

tahol10069

OP: I understand you point 100%. I understand it so well I don't do any group content in any game anymore after learning to avoid it like a plague in my first MMO.

I was a healer. I had enough of stupid for the rest of my life. I also had enough of being abused by people who clearly had some kind of personality disorder, because even children are not that bad. Dead by one hit? "*** healer why didn't you heal me?" Tell them kindly to avoid red spots? Get trolled now for the rest of the run because peoples fragile egos can't take any reminder of them not being perfect and omnipotent. People not letting tank to take agro and running around like headless chicken. You tell them kindly to not run so you can keep them alive? No one cares. My first words after teleporting in the instance "Hello and wait for buffs", every single time, and still there were people who had to start the instance without any buffs and not waiting for me. Die yourself because DPS didn't kill adds chasing after you, as they should? Tank wants to kick me now. Who is so stupid they want to take something like that in a hobby?

I 100% believe that there are people who don't use food just from sheer stubborness. Or just to spite others. I've seen enough of how people act in MMO's. They simply attract a certain demographic of people.While there is a good majority of people who are decent human beings, you will meet in MMO's a very large minority who are far from decent. I have no understanding for those people. They also like to blaim others for their shortcomings and failures. Also the defense of "I would have listened if you would have said it in another way!" is straight out of narcissistic peoples toolbox. It is total BS. No one needs to have their behind licked to get the message through. With these people there IS NO WAY to say the thing so that it wouldn't offend them. In best case they just wont care, in worst case you will be abused for the rest of the run or trolled in some other way until they have decided that they have revenged your audacity in a satisfactory way.

The responses OP has gotten has just proved me the decision to avoid group content has been right. It seems the attitude of "I play just for fun I don't care about others"-crowd has just gotten worse.

When I was first time a DPS in an instance I was told to not stand in stupid by the healer. I said I'm sorry and I will try to avoid them from now. And then we went on. I've been told to not take aggro from tank. I said I'm sorry and I will try to avoid it from now on. And then we continued like nothing had happened. Unfortunately I never got the same courtesy back when I had to tell people to suck at least a little less.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed a handful of combative and nonconstructive comments. Since this thread has derailed and is no longer civil, we've decided to close it.