Bad/clueless/unwilling to learn people in dungeons

Raisin

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

A lot of it can be how you talk to them. In close to six years, I’ve quit from a group that refused to listen 3 times, and I’ll pug a lot. If you are friendly, most will listen. I’ve even done quick training classes in dungeons and people left better players. I EXPECT a lot of bad play going in and just try to help.

I strongly disagree with "if you're friendly, most will listen". I know from experience that's not true. Yeah I know someone will say maybe I wasn't nice. I typed a bit of an essay here trying to showcase that I am indeed the sweetest damn thing when giving advice to PUGs, but it made me sound like a *** so I cut it.
Just gotta take my word for it -- a lot of people simply don't want to change their playstyle. It doesn't matter how nice you are, it's just not something they're interested in and explanations and advice aren't welcome. Which is fine, cause it's their choice. Some will also find it patronizing.

Maybe it hasn’t been true for you, but it hasn’t been the horror story you’ve had for me. I’m on PC/NA. If I’m patient and not condescending, it’s been ok.

For those saying that you’ll lose by pugging, I’ve somehow completed many a Vet dungeon while pugging. I haven’t pugged a vet trial though.

Well different experience for everyone. Patience doesn't help for people who just aren't interested. PC/EU here, and I'm only taking into account people who demonstrated speaking English. Although I have also coached groups through mechanics with some bad language barriers, using Google translate and a lot of pointing.

I do agree though that pugging vet DLC is absolutely doable; not if you get a good group, but if you get a group willing to listen and learn. Certainly those groups fail more often to the impatient 810 *** than the willing first-timer. I've pugged vHRC and vSS -- but the latter is damn hard to PUG. You'd be impressed how many people prefer to stand around or wipe continuously for literal hours rather than offer to go into tombs (and this is after explanation so everybody is in the same page).

FakeFox

Hamish999 wrote: »

Not saying they shouldn't know to move out of stupid. But being red/green colour blind I really struggled to see AOEs when I first started playing, until I changed the colour to bright luminous pink 😁
I still can't see the "sparkles" that apparently telegraph interrupts though 😞

If you are on PC you can get addons that gives you center screen messages for that stuff.

RebornV3x

There really should be some advanced optional tutorial that you can do repeatedly almost like A small fight arena setting upon getting the undaunted enclave invite at lvl 45 you have a DPS tutorial, healing, and tanking with a 30sec video giving a general overview of each role... But they could get some popular streamer to do it....
All that's left to do is give a good reward and exp for a 1st completion and even a few in game achievements or challenges tied to doing the advanced tutorial.

FearlessOne_2014

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

A lot of it can be how you talk to them. In close to six years, I’ve quit from a group that refused to listen 3 times, and I’ll pug a lot. If you are friendly, most will listen. I’ve even done quick training classes in dungeons and people left better players. I EXPECT a lot of bad play going in and just try to help.

I strongly disagree with "if you're friendly, most will listen". I know from experience that's not true. Yeah I know someone will say maybe I wasn't nice. I typed a bit of an essay here trying to showcase that I am indeed the sweetest damn thing when giving advice to PUGs, but it made me sound like a *** so I cut it.
Just gotta take my word for it -- a lot of people simply don't want to change their playstyle. It doesn't matter how nice you are, it's just not something they're interested in and explanations and advice aren't welcome. Which is fine, cause it's their choice. Some will also find it patronizing.

Maybe it hasn’t been true for you, but it hasn’t been the horror story you’ve had for me. I’m on PC/NA. If I’m patient and not condescending, it’s been ok.

For those saying that you’ll lose by pugging, I’ve somehow completed many a Vet dungeon while pugging. I haven’t pugged a vet trial though.

What you say is true. However from my experience. It's only true in 10% of my rando PUG cases. Most of my cases when I was PUGing with randos. Most are completely snobby and just don't give a damn about anything or anyone but themselves. I've tried being nice and guiding them through content only to be met with ridicule and resentment.

Also ZOS also enforces the theme of ~If you PUG with randos, you lose!~ They do this by punishing you with a 15 minute timer. For being in group with randos who queue as Fake Tanks and Fake Healers for DLC Vet content. Or DPS that can't be asked to learn or listen to you.

So in ESO's group finder ~If you PUG with randos, you lose!~ So I remedy that by only PUGing with Randos in content that I can Solo by myself. These days if I can complete said content solo or none of my guildies are online to queue with me. Than that content just doesn't get tried. I have fully and completely given up on the situation with trying to suffer PUGing with randos through content I can't solo.

By decree of ZOS... ~IF YOU PUG WITH RANDOS, YOU LOSE!~

rotaugen454

Raisin wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

A lot of it can be how you talk to them. In close to six years, I’ve quit from a group that refused to listen 3 times, and I’ll pug a lot. If you are friendly, most will listen. I’ve even done quick training classes in dungeons and people left better players. I EXPECT a lot of bad play going in and just try to help.

I strongly disagree with "if you're friendly, most will listen". I know from experience that's not true. Yeah I know someone will say maybe I wasn't nice. I typed a bit of an essay here trying to showcase that I am indeed the sweetest damn thing when giving advice to PUGs, but it made me sound like a *** so I cut it.
Just gotta take my word for it -- a lot of people simply don't want to change their playstyle. It doesn't matter how nice you are, it's just not something they're interested in and explanations and advice aren't welcome. Which is fine, cause it's their choice. Some will also find it patronizing.

Maybe it hasn’t been true for you, but it hasn’t been the horror story you’ve had for me. I’m on PC/NA. If I’m patient and not condescending, it’s been ok.

For those saying that you’ll lose by pugging, I’ve somehow completed many a Vet dungeon while pugging. I haven’t pugged a vet trial though.

Well different experience for everyone. Patience doesn't help for people who just aren't interested. PC/EU here, and I'm only taking into account people who demonstrated speaking English. Although I have also coached groups through mechanics with some bad language barriers, using Google translate and a lot of pointing.

I do agree though that pugging vet DLC is absolutely doable; not if you get a good group, but if you get a group willing to listen and learn. Certainly those groups fail more often to the impatient 810 *** than the willing first-timer. I've pugged vHRC and vSS -- but the latter is damn hard to PUG. You'd be impressed how many people prefer to stand around or wipe continuously for literal hours rather than offer to go into tombs (and this is after explanation so everybody is in the same page).

You’ve pugged vSS? You are a braver person than I. I’d think the problems I anticipate on Vet group dungeons would increase exponentially. I can talk 1-3 people through mechanics but that is probably beyond my ability.

Veinblood1965

You could just get better and carry the group. It's your fault after all for not being able to pull them through the bad sparkly things in the encounters lol.

Odovacar

If your delivery of advice comes politely most will take the tips willfully. If they don't, well...whatever, let them remain clueless. -_o_-

OG_Kaveman

SkerKro wrote: »

The Dunning-Kruger Effect at its finest.

More like negativey bias, people tend to remember and weigh the worst of Things more then the good parts. Like this-



I would be willing to bet real money that the op has had way more good runs the bad ones, with the sort of players he is taking about.

Agenericname

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

A lot of it can be how you talk to them. In close to six years, I’ve quit from a group that refused to listen 3 times, and I’ll pug a lot. If you are friendly, most will listen. I’ve even done quick training classes in dungeons and people left better players. I EXPECT a lot of bad play going in and just try to help.

I strongly disagree with "if you're friendly, most will listen". I know from experience that's not true. Yeah I know someone will say maybe I wasn't nice. I typed a bit of an essay here trying to showcase that I am indeed the sweetest damn thing when giving advice to PUGs, but it made me sound like a *** so I cut it.
Just gotta take my word for it -- a lot of people simply don't want to change their playstyle. It doesn't matter how nice you are, it's just not something they're interested in and explanations and advice aren't welcome. Which is fine, cause it's their choice. Some will also find it patronizing.

Maybe it hasn’t been true for you, but it hasn’t been the horror story you’ve had for me. I’m on PC/NA. If I’m patient and not condescending, it’s been ok.

For those saying that you’ll lose by pugging, I’ve somehow completed many a Vet dungeon while pugging. I haven’t pugged a vet trial though.

What you say is true. However from my experience. It's only true in 10% of my rando PUG cases. Most of my cases when I was PUGing with randos. Most are completely snobby and just don't give a damn about anything or anyone but themselves. I've tried being nice and guiding them through content only to be met with ridicule and resentment.

Also ZOS also enforces the theme of ~If you PUG with randos, you lose!~ They do this by punishing you with a 15 minute timer. For being in group with randos who queue as Fake Tanks and Fake Healers for DLC Vet content. Or DPS that can't be asked to learn or listen to you.

So in ESO's group finder ~If you PUG with randos, you lose!~ So I remedy that by only PUGing with Randos in content that I can Solo by myself. These days if I can complete said content solo or none of my guildies are online to queue with me. Than that content just doesn't get tried. I have fully and completely given up on the situation with trying to suffer PUGing with randos through content I can't solo.

By decree of ZOS... ~IF YOU PUG WITH RANDOS, YOU LOSE!~

I PUG almost every day, at least one. Its normally the vet DLC. The span of time between cases where we could not clear a dungeon can be measured in weeks. That's non-HM. HM vet DLCs are a little different. It's more common to give HM a few tries then agree that non-HM is the way to go.

Most people just want the clear and don't want to be a failure or appear to be a failure. There have, of course, been some exceptions, but that's been the norm for me.

Non-DLC vets have less communication in my experience, but still, hardly ever a scenario where we don't complete it in a timely manner.

magictucktuck

I know it would never happen and most of the population would never go for it, but for veteran dungeons I would love if you have to teleport to a solo instance and go to a room with a boss with minimal mechanics and does not move out of center of room, maybe just a big aoe that grows from him and a few "bombs" that drop on you so you have to move in order to unlock veteran dungeons. You have to kill him with minimum 20k dps. if you fail it gives you a detailed description of a rotation for you class and explains you WILL GET 20k dps if you put 4 dots on something and spam him with your class/weapon spammable/ then repeat!

life would be better for everyone

Raisin

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

A lot of it can be how you talk to them. In close to six years, I’ve quit from a group that refused to listen 3 times, and I’ll pug a lot. If you are friendly, most will listen. I’ve even done quick training classes in dungeons and people left better players. I EXPECT a lot of bad play going in and just try to help.

I strongly disagree with "if you're friendly, most will listen". I know from experience that's not true. Yeah I know someone will say maybe I wasn't nice. I typed a bit of an essay here trying to showcase that I am indeed the sweetest damn thing when giving advice to PUGs, but it made me sound like a *** so I cut it.
Just gotta take my word for it -- a lot of people simply don't want to change their playstyle. It doesn't matter how nice you are, it's just not something they're interested in and explanations and advice aren't welcome. Which is fine, cause it's their choice. Some will also find it patronizing.

Maybe it hasn’t been true for you, but it hasn’t been the horror story you’ve had for me. I’m on PC/NA. If I’m patient and not condescending, it’s been ok.

For those saying that you’ll lose by pugging, I’ve somehow completed many a Vet dungeon while pugging. I haven’t pugged a vet trial though.

Well different experience for everyone. Patience doesn't help for people who just aren't interested. PC/EU here, and I'm only taking into account people who demonstrated speaking English. Although I have also coached groups through mechanics with some bad language barriers, using Google translate and a lot of pointing.

I do agree though that pugging vet DLC is absolutely doable; not if you get a good group, but if you get a group willing to listen and learn. Certainly those groups fail more often to the impatient 810 *** than the willing first-timer. I've pugged vHRC and vSS -- but the latter is damn hard to PUG. You'd be impressed how many people prefer to stand around or wipe continuously for literal hours rather than offer to go into tombs (and this is after explanation so everybody is in the same page).

You’ve pugged vSS? You are a braver person than I. I’d think the problems I anticipate on Vet group dungeons would increase exponentially. I can talk 1-3 people through mechanics but that is probably beyond my ability.

I've attempted it many times. Often I end up a little too involved, trying to make things work... Unfortunately the group leader of such activities often ends up to be either clueless or at the least too meek. And you need to (politely) light some fire under people's asses to make things work. That said, the most success I had (actually finishing the full thing with more or less the same group) featured one or maybe even both tanks from the same guild and a DD also from that guild. So we had a good base. As I said, the lokke tombs really are where most of them fail. It's such a silly thing to fail at too; but on EU there are always people who don't understand your explanation... And are too afraid to speak up. Apparently nSS doesn't have tombs, so folks THINK they're prepared.
Anyway, there's a lot to say on the topic as you can tell. xD The key to pugging any trial is to understand that you WILL replace half the group throughout the course of making it, and you need to expect those extra hours of work. But it's very rewarding if you manage, and you will make some great connections in the process!

FearlessOne_2014

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

The Dunning-Kruger Effect at its finest.

More like negativey bias, people tend to remember and weigh the worst of Things more then the good parts. Like this-



I would be willing to bet real money that the op has had way more good runs the bad ones, with the sort of players he is taking about.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if OP hasn't. More so with the current "I play how I want to" randos populating GF these days.

I can tell you nearly 100 plus guildmates in my guild agree. PUGing with randos is setting yourself up for big failure. Either PUG with guildies or not at all.

OG_Kaveman

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

The Dunning-Kruger Effect at its finest.

More like negativey bias, people tend to remember and weigh the worst of Things more then the good parts. Like this-



I would be willing to bet real money that the op has had way more good runs the bad ones, with the sort of players he is taking about.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if OP hasn't. More so with the current "I play how I want to" randos populating GF these days.

I can tell you nearly 100 plus guildmates in my guild agree. PUGing with randos is setting yourself up for big failure. Either PUG with guildies or not at all.

I almost exclusively pug and have for almost 5 years, thousands of dungeons. 95% of the time, it is fine. There is no "play as you want group" you are describing, players are as good/bad as they always have been. Trust me, you really need to guard against negativity bias, it really warps your perception and memory.

SquawkTheMajestic

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Weesacs wrote: »

Then dont pug?

This is the only way. Matter of fact since you can't find good friends or guildies. Maybe OP and people like OP might be better off playing better single player games.

In ESO's group finder. ~You PUG with randos, you lose!~ It's as simple as that. You don't want to lose? Then find pre mades group to get clears. Again... ~If you PUG with randos, you lose!~

Man I disagree with this wholeheartedly. I'm telling OP not to pug because he clearly doesn't have any patience or tolerance for people who don't play the way he wants them to. I'm NOT saying "as a general rule, people shouldn't pug". Sure, you get some annoying people. Sure, you get duo queues who can't be kicked so they act however they want. Sure, you get fake tanks. But I also leveled 1-50 by doing random dungeons and had plenty of high-CP characters who helped me do lightning fast dungeon runs. I treated them like free XP bursts. I've pugged Vet DLC dungeons before (it's an interesting challenge).

Finding a group in your guild is usually the best route to go. But pugging is a perfectly good option and most people are decent. The ones who aren't just have a way of sticking in our minds.

FierceSam

Jhalin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

“Elitist w***er blames others for own failings” shocker

You’re bothered by the way others play?

1. Don’t play with others, or

2. Set up guild with express purpose of helping others improve

3. Stop whining about it to others, you sound like a sad spoilt child

People like you are exactly why others give up on teaching newbies. You, clearly, have no desire to learn how to be a team player.

That’s fine, until you start trying to force other players to put it up with you while you cry “elitist” the moment someone tells you how to get better at the game

Hey dude,

There are many different ways to encourage others to learn. Personally, I don’t think any of them begin by having the attitude that the OP does. You can’t be starting with an attitude simply because someone doesn’t know something or isn’t as experienced as you are... I mean imagine how that would work in kindergarten, where almost none of the children know anything.

Belittlement, superiority and abuse are rarely effective teaching tools

It may seem a little petty, but you don’t tell people to get better, you help them.

I quite clearly said, “tell them how to get better”. That IS helping them.

Imagine thinking it’s “superiority” that makes someone think standing in red is stupid

Hmm you still haven’t appreciated the distinction between telling someone (which implies speaking condescendingly from a position of superiority) and helping them (implies a sympathetic attitude and speaking to them like an equal). I know which one I best respond to.

We’ve all, hopefully, experienced that special teacher who inspired us while teaching us. Just as we’ve probably, sadly, all had that teacher who patronises us, treats us like idiots and expects us to learn from them. Again I know which teacher I respond best to.

Let’s all try to be the first teacher when we’re helping others.

And to reiterate, if you don’t like the people you are playing with, don’t join PUG groups. Make your own groups and have your fun that way. Can’t find 3 friends?? Think what that might say about you..

SidraWillowsky

daedalusAI wrote: »

It's just infuriating how bad/clueless the large majority of players are, and then they just refuse to listen to anything you're telling them:

• CP 320 DK with bow/DW, but his only AoE is spamming Noxious Breath
• Level 45 sorc whose sole goal in life is to spam Crystal Shards until the end of time, no matter what you're telling him
• CP 450 who thinks food is for the weak and runs around with 10k HP; but there seems to be a general aversion to using food in dungeons, or at all for that matter
• CP from 1 to 810 who just refuse to move out of big red telegraphed effects and die as a result, but then get irritated if you point them towards that fact

I'm far from a really good player, but some things like moving out of big red telegraphed effects, slotting at least 1 AoE and listening to feedback from players who just might know more than you are things I have to expect.

How's your delivery here tho? IMO when people in dungeons offer unsolicited advice it's often -almost always, now that I think about it- in a rude or unfriendly manner. They'll berate specific players and/or the entire group and it generally makes things highly unpleasant for everyone. People aren't going to respond well to that. I dunno... but in the few cases where I've done it, I generally

• Bring up how I didn't know it for a long time and how it gave me grief "In case you didn't know <insert mechanic>. I didn't know at first and it gave me a lot of trouble." Throwing in a little self-deprecation tends to help in these cases.
• If asking about food consumption due to low HP, I always offer them food when I ask if they're using it.
• If they're using their skills in an egregiously wrong manner that's detrimental to the group's success, I'll again use the self-deprecation thing.... in this case, it's also true; I used nothing but Ambush and Acid Spray on my stamblade for a long time. I feel like in general people respond to relatability. Just a "hey, I've been there too; here's what I learned" vs. preaching to them from your position on high

Not saying you've done anything wrong personally, OP. But a lot of people approach these situations from an angle that's just going to *** others off.

And yeah, as others have said, I think it's generally just best to NOT offer unsolicited advice unless it's about mechanics. All you can really do is be the best that you can be. I'm a min-maxxer so I have fun working to get my DPS as high as i can, and as a result I can carry bad DPS through most content. And I'm happy to do so without offering advice that they may not want, and even happier to provide advice to those who ask for it.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

pdblake wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Not a joke: I've met CP 160+ toons where the player claims it's their first dungeon EVER.

Maybe they power levelled. Maybe they used XP boosts. Maybe they started during a double XP event. Maybe they levelled their alt doing daily writs. Whatever. Point is, something is going on and some people don't step foot in dungeons till way into their mid to late game.

Some of what you wrote though -- sounds like maybe while they were leveling they forgot to level their skill lines <.<

Maybe, like me, they've taken time to enjoy the rest of the game playing solo, only doing the dungeon and group stuff when they get around to it.

I'm CP450+ (forget how much exactly), and have only done few dungeons ages ago. My current main hasn't been inside a group dungeon at all, but can solo every public dungeon he's come across. I'm only now toying with the idea of pugging a dungeon. Still not been to Cyrodill.

As for Cyrodil you really should go visit. When you pop in you can get the quest to do the Seige Weapon training or skip it. I suggest not skipping it. It's easy, quick and fun. Once you do that you get two Skill points. Then you can go to the nearby location on another quest which you get at the Seige training site and go to the nearby scroll location and get a skyshard there as well as read some books.

There are a few more NPCs to talk to and once done with everything you will be at least level 2 in Assault and Support. I think you have already unlocked Rapids by getting AP from the Daily Login rewards but if not you can now.

Oh, you also can do the Volundrung weapon training as well which is pretty neat the first time.

yRaven

True, ppl mostly of the time don't even get in to the trouble of reading the group chat, and i know that some ppl play for fun and all, but if you're putting yourself in a group content... THEN PLAY LIKE YOU'RE IN A GROUP

But also... if like me you don't have friends that play ESO maybe because they're playing something better, but noooo Gabriel like ESO and play mostly in PUG, you can't do nothing than just endure that

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Lot of low DPS players in the game. Even some with over 1100 CP have a problem hitting 10K DPS. I know a few players like this personally. Who are they? Two older ladies in their 70's that just want to have fun with Guildies. I don't think they have done a single Veteran dungeon but they have done all the dungeons in Normal.

In the guild, we take them through the dungeons so they can complete them for their Achievements and have fun.

As for PUGGING I have run into exactly what you have posted. It is a bit of a pain but it is what it is. Sometimes the players will take advice if offered nicely but often they never respond to Group chat. Just the way it is. LOL, the 10K Health player I see quite a bit. Many times I have offered food to the player and it has been accepted and I get thanked for it. Some players just have no crafting or not enough gold to buy food or just plain don't know all the benefits to various foods and drinks.

One of the best ways I have found to help others is to ask if they are in a guild and would like to join a guild I am in. If they do join, most of the time the Guildies have been able to bring them up to speed once in a VOIP program and can talk builds and dungeon mechanics as well as gear sets, etc.

But yeah, I hear ya. It's just something we have to deal with and not get angry about it.

KMarble

I started playing ESO on a 10+ years old laptop. The concept of using WASD and the mouse at the same time was new to me and something I had to work on. On top of that I also had a very slow internet connection.

I changed to a desktop that is better less than a year ago, and upgraded the internet a few weeks ago. Until then I could not see anything on the ground due to all the AoE effects. Until I upgraded to the desktop, doing a dolmen meant I could only see silhouettes of other players and flashes of light. I knew visual clues existed because I heard and read about them, but had never seen them before.

After upgrading to the desktop the visuals became a little better, but I noticed my char moved very slow when trying to get out of red - everyone I've seen play moved much faster. I lost count how many times I died trying to get out of red. It wasn't until I got the internet upgrade that I found out that it wasn't a L2P issue.

I got to level 810 a few days ago, have done all the quests in the game, most of the public dungeons, a good amount of group dungeons, a handful of trials, gone to Cyro and even killed a couple of players in IC (with help).

I never used an xp scroll and the only xp boosts I got so far have been the ones from the anniversary cake and witch's cauldron because I didn't know you could turn those off. I started playing during the last week of the anniversary last year.

El_Borracho

You assume the risk while pugging, however, what fool is running around with no food? Come on. I'd think I was being trolled

kylewwefan

See, it’s not just me. Everyone has to deal with Tamriel’s finest

I did start doing something the other day; may continue.

Zone: I’m going to solo the dailies on normal. Anyone wants to tag along I’ll carry you.

Instantly Got a few whispers and tag alongs. Ok, not everyone can do that, and I would get more keys doing vet, but heck with it. I got 12 toons to work with.

Jeremy

daedalusAI wrote: »

Weesacs wrote: »

Then dont pug?

What is that supposed to even mean:

• You play with people you know and are fine with them not knowing anything even with a high CP number
• You expect basic things like what I described in my OP, but then the question is why you expect those things of the people you play with, and not the general player population

Expecting people to dodge telegraphed moves or slot area of attack abilities is probably not a realistic expectation when using the activity finder.... especially if those players are new or unfamiliar with the dungeon. This game's landscape is so pitifully easy players can easily progress through this game without ever having to bother with either.

You should probably view pugs formed through the Activity Finder as training grounds for players to learn how to play their characters. If you are uncomfortable with that reality it's probably best not to pug because you are going to end up disappointed or frustrated otherwise.

rotaugen454

If I have a group of newer/unknowing people that are willing to learn, I actually have more fun with them than three other maxed out/experienced players. There is a sense of accomplishment, with people cheering the victory. When it’s 4 of me, we sprint through the dungeon, finish, and immediately disband, with maybe a “gg” said.

daedalusAI

FierceSam wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

“Elitist w***er blames others for own failings” shocker

You’re bothered by the way others play?

1. Don’t play with others, or

2. Set up guild with express purpose of helping others improve

3. Stop whining about it to others, you sound like a sad spoilt child

People like you are exactly why others give up on teaching newbies. You, clearly, have no desire to learn how to be a team player.

That’s fine, until you start trying to force other players to put it up with you while you cry “elitist” the moment someone tells you how to get better at the game

Hey dude,

There are many different ways to encourage others to learn. Personally, I don’t think any of them begin by having the attitude that the OP does. You can’t be starting with an attitude simply because someone doesn’t know something or isn’t as experienced as you are... I mean imagine how that would work in kindergarten, where almost none of the children know anything.

Belittlement, superiority and abuse are rarely effective teaching tools

It may seem a little petty, but you don’t tell people to get better, you help them.

I quite clearly said, “tell them how to get better”. That IS helping them.

Imagine thinking it’s “superiority” that makes someone think standing in red is stupid

Hmm you still haven’t appreciated the distinction between telling someone (which implies speaking condescendingly from a position of superiority) and helping them (implies a sympathetic attitude and speaking to them like an equal). I know which one I best respond to.

We’ve all, hopefully, experienced that special teacher who inspired us while teaching us. Just as we’ve probably, sadly, all had that teacher who patronises us, treats us like idiots and expects us to learn from them. Again I know which teacher I respond best to.

Let’s all try to be the first teacher when we’re helping others.

And to reiterate, if you don’t like the people you are playing with, don’t join PUG groups. Make your own groups and have your fun that way. Can’t find 3 friends?? Think what that might say about you..

If I tell you that you run around with no food in a vet dungeon that's "condescending from a position of superiority", and not simply stating a fact that you overlooked to do?

Rather condescending how you try to label me a certain way.

daedalusAI

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

It's just infuriating how bad/clueless the large majority of players are, and then they just refuse to listen to anything you're telling them:

• CP 320 DK with bow/DW, but his only AoE is spamming Noxious Breath
• Level 45 sorc whose sole goal in life is to spam Crystal Shards until the end of time, no matter what you're telling him
• CP 450 who thinks food is for the weak and runs around with 10k HP; but there seems to be a general aversion to using food in dungeons, or at all for that matter
• CP from 1 to 810 who just refuse to move out of big red telegraphed effects and die as a result, but then get irritated if you point them towards that fact

I'm far from a really good player, but some things like moving out of big red telegraphed effects, slotting at least 1 AoE and listening to feedback from players who just might know more than you are things I have to expect.

How's your delivery here tho? IMO when people in dungeons offer unsolicited advice it's often -almost always, now that I think about it- in a rude or unfriendly manner. They'll berate specific players and/or the entire group and it generally makes things highly unpleasant for everyone. People aren't going to respond well to that. I dunno... but in the few cases where I've done it, I generally

• Bring up how I didn't know it for a long time and how it gave me grief "In case you didn't know <insert mechanic>. I didn't know at first and it gave me a lot of trouble." Throwing in a little self-deprecation tends to help in these cases.
• If asking about food consumption due to low HP, I always offer them food when I ask if they're using it.
• If they're using their skills in an egregiously wrong manner that's detrimental to the group's success, I'll again use the self-deprecation thing.... in this case, it's also true; I used nothing but Ambush and Acid Spray on my stamblade for a long time. I feel like in general people respond to relatability. Just a "hey, I've been there too; here's what I learned" vs. preaching to them from your position on high

Not saying you've done anything wrong personally, OP. But a lot of people approach these situations from an angle that's just going to *** others off.

And yeah, as others have said, I think it's generally just best to NOT offer unsolicited advice unless it's about mechanics. All you can really do is be the best that you can be. I'm a min-maxxer so I have fun working to get my DPS as high as i can, and as a result I can carry bad DPS through most content. And I'm happy to do so without offering advice that they may not want, and even happier to provide advice to those who ask for it.

Delivery: stating facts like "You have no food active" or "Why aren't you using any AoE?" or "Move out of red telegraphed effects", the kind of feedback a lot of people really don't like.

Let me get this straight: you honestly think that in a game with a chat while doing group content, which requires 4 people to do their job to varying degrees, it's "best to not offer unsolicited advice unless it's about mechanics"?

Using that as a base: if you get a fake tank, a light-attack spamming DPS and another DPS that just spams 1 single-target ability you say nothing and do what, just leave?

VaranisArano

I dunno. Seems to me there's some basic advice that's always appropriate in PUG dungeons, normal and vet.

1. "Did your food buff run out?"
2. "Does everyone know how to do X mechanic?" (Particularly after a wipe or you've watched someone fail the mechanic.)

There's nothing elitist about politely offering good advice when its demonstrably needed.

Dusk_Coven

OP is frustrated by what they consider to be basic things people are overlooking and a situation they feel is not commonplace enough that it is frustrating and surprising when it happens.

A lot of posters are providing reasons why the situation exists. Fine. But OP is still entitled to their frustration and I think we gotta stop bashing the OP. Bashing was never required while pointing out that they are proceeding on hidden assumptions.

Raisin

J2JMC wrote: »

@daedalusAI
@SipofMaim
@Jhalin
@Naftal
@InvictusApollo
@Raisin
@FearlessOne_2014
@RebornV3x
@magictucktuck

Since all of you hate PUGS why don't you just form a guild so you never have to worry about PUGS again? Shoot, ya'll could make a trial team at this point.

This whole thread has a full conversation where I talk about positive PUG experiences and how much I love them...
If you don't like reading, why not leave the forum and start a picture book club?

rotaugen454

VaranisArano wrote: »

I dunno. Seems to me there's some basic advice that's always appropriate in PUG dungeons, normal and vet.

1. "Did your food buff run out?"
2. "Does everyone know how to do X mechanic?" (Particularly after a wipe or you've watched someone fail the mechanic.)

There's nothing elitist about politely offering good advice when its demonstrably needed.

I always ask at the start “Does everyone know the mechanics? It’s ok if you don’t. I’ve run this many times and can give some quick tips at the start of each area if you would like”. I’ve never had anyone get snotty with me when phrased like that.