Bad/clueless/unwilling to learn people in dungeons

ThePlayer

You talk about the random normal dungeons, which are definitely easier and even the inexperienced or ignorant players in the basics of the game may end, the problem is that the same kind of players are in the veteran dlc dungeons and usually it's a complete waste of time .
Fortunately, after the 3-5th group (not always) it is possible to find a valid random group or able to finish the dungeons vet dlc.
Many here tell you to go with a group of friends, only that friends don't always play or want to do dungeons in your same hours and the random group is studied exactly for this, ZOS should better study the accessibility to vet dlc content, this for sure.

Goregrinder

Jhalin wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Pug = Public Group. AKA Random group, AKA pick-up group. That would be like showing up to the noon pick-up hockey game at a local ice rink, playing against whoever shoes up, and they heckle me for not using Ovetchkins $300 hockey stick, or skating on Bauers instead of CCMs, or why I never go for slap shots and only for snap shots.

You want professional performance, don't go to a public domain.

More like someone expects you to know which goal to aim for, and then you get mad when someone tells you you’re shooting for the wrong net.

Or expecting you had some idea of how to play hockey, but you’re grabbing the puck and throwing it like a frisbee.

Yup that's what you can expect at pick-up games. Some people played D1, others just started 6 months ago and are still figuring it out. To expect anything else would be illogical.

Being new is expected. Those new players responding with screw off, or “don’t tell me how to play”, or just plain ignoring all advice any time someone tries to give them basic instructions, and ruining the game for everyone on their team, is not expected nor acceptable.

It's not about whether they are new or not, the point is you are playing with complete strangers. You don't know where they are skill wise, or will wise. But to expect every stranger to want to improve like you do, is pushing your own play style on others. No one has to play well in ESO, which is the beauty of it. Obviously we would hope people do, but no one is required to. No one is required to take advice. No one is required to improve their build.

The only way you can ensure your group is going to play EXACTLY how you want, is to find people who are ALREADY playing that way, and form a group with them, and run with them.

MehrunesFlagon

rotaugen454 wrote: »

grkkll wrote: »

I mostly heal vet pledges, the only issue I can't abide is low dps. In the past week I've hit this in BC2 and DsC2 to such an extent that we couldn't finish the dungeon, final boss in BC and the "jellyfish" in DsC. I just leave, there's no way bad dps is going to get better in these scenarios

That had to be horrible DPS in DsC2, as I have siloed it. The toughest boss for me was one the early ones who had a stun and kept summoning adds. The final boss was easy compared to that.

I've never siloed dsc 2.

Dusk_Coven

Goregrinder wrote: »

No one has to play well in ESO, which is the beauty of it.

I think the devs are trying to accommodate this view. That's why they stopped Craglorn style zones. But Group Finder doesn't know that. Once you hit level 45 you qualify for Undaunted and the queue doesn't care if you are ready for DLC content or tougher dungeons or not. So actually the game/devs expects you to get better.
Even to queue at all you need to be level 10, which means you'd have to try really hard not to have gained any progress in your class skill lines and weapon skill lines -- which in turn suggests the devs expect you to have learned to do more than light attack.

Nowadays people get advised on how to power level, get a port to Alik'r, use one of the many XP scrolls the game hands out like water, and zoom to gear cap. That's worse than not doing the tutorial which at least tries to teach you to block and bash.

Right now the only way to choose a definitely easy one with Group Finder is to queue with a lowbie. However if you let people limit their dungeon range voluntarily, those people who are trying to do a specific dungeon are gonna wait even longer than they do now.

Any sort of tweak to the Group Finder is surely going to be exploited so there's no easy answer to how to handle people you think are sub-par relative to whatever yardstick you are using -- which is probably very different from everyone else's.

If someone is the type to be impatient with people, I recommend they queue with a lowbie. That way they'll probably get a very easy dungeon they can solo. Then it won't really matter if the rest of the team is good or not -- because they're uber, right?

LadySinflower

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Not a joke: I've met CP 160+ toons where the player claims it's their first dungeon EVER.

Maybe they power levelled. Maybe they used XP boosts. Maybe they started during a double XP event. Maybe they levelled their alt doing daily writs. Whatever. Point is, something is going on and some people don't step foot in dungeons till way into their mid to late game.

Some of what you wrote though -- sounds like maybe while they were leveling they forgot to level their skill lines <.<

Hey I am CP679 and just did my very first trial a week ago. It was with guildies who had the patience to explain the mechanics before we did everything. Not everyone starts running that type of content at level 10.

ProfessorKittyhawk

PUGging is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

For the most part the pugs I've had have been fine. But the bad ones always tend to stand out.

The "healer" whose only healing ability was the psijic ability mend wounds. No resto staff or anything. In normal Scalecaller.

Me trying to learn tanking a bit with my max level tank only to get out in a group of level 13s or 14s. Taking trash mobs and bosses took forever. In Darkshade Caverns. One of the basic of the basic dungeons.

Then just today, running as a healer for a daily random. Arx Corinium. Bit of a longer trial but not hard. First boss, I notice 2 of the pugs standing in the snakes circle while it regenerates health. Tell them not to stand in circle or it heals. One person listened. The other just Leroy Jenkins'ed the hell out of it. His damage not doing nearly enough to out do the snakes healing. I kept trying to tell them to stand out of it but must had chat closed or completely ignoring me. We were all about even leveled mid to high 20s. This guy was 19. Made the fight take way longer than it had any right to, almost making contemplate dropping out. Way to waste my xp dude.

Ysbriel

I miss those glorius days when I also was clueless pug.

Glurin

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

No one has to play well in ESO, which is the beauty of it.

I think the devs are trying to accommodate this view. That's why they stopped Craglorn style zones.

Well, that and Craglorn style zones end up as ghost towns 99% of the time because nobody likes having to look for a group to do zone quests. Nor do people particularly like dropping everything they are doing to join groups for said quests after they've already managed to complete them.

witchdoctor

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

grkkll wrote: »

I mostly heal vet pledges, the only issue I can't abide is low dps. In the past week I've hit this in BC2 and DsC2 to such an extent that we couldn't finish the dungeon, final boss in BC and the "jellyfish" in DsC. I just leave, there's no way bad dps is going to get better in these scenarios

That had to be horrible DPS in DsC2, as I have siloed it. The toughest boss for me was one the early ones who had a stun and kept summoning adds. The final boss was easy compared to that.

I've never siloed dsc 2.

But apparently many torpedo it.

*Ba ching!*

FierceSam

Jhalin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Shievarei wrote: »

I wonder if the people who act smart and tell others to not use the Group Finder know that they are basically supporting OP's point.

It's difficult.

Hey Shievarei

If encouraging OP not to use the group finder saves even 3 players from being grouped with them I will consider that a total victory..

And you are right, helping people can be difficult. It’s not always successful. But when it’s done right and it does work, it can be incredibly rewarding.

I’m almost certain OP would be a better group mate than you

If I tried to tell people stop standing in red, or to use more abilities than snipe, you get upset about me “not talking to them right”

Well, when I was younger (like CP 45P) and stupiderer and doing my first dungeons and I did stand in red, I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by guildies who helped me improve.

It’s all about context, if your view is that going ‘don’t stand in the f-ing red idiotboy ‘ is a productive way of distributing your deep inner knowledge, or that that is even remotely productive, then we’ll have to agree to differ.

SeaGtGruff

daedalusAI wrote: »

CP from 1 to 810 who just refuse to move out of big red telegraphed effects

BuildMan wrote: »

Tank : taunt and stand still.

One of these things is not like the other.

Jhalin

FierceSam wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Shievarei wrote: »

I wonder if the people who act smart and tell others to not use the Group Finder know that they are basically supporting OP's point.

It's difficult.

Hey Shievarei

If encouraging OP not to use the group finder saves even 3 players from being grouped with them I will consider that a total victory..

And you are right, helping people can be difficult. It’s not always successful. But when it’s done right and it does work, it can be incredibly rewarding.

I’m almost certain OP would be a better group mate than you

If I tried to tell people stop standing in red, or to use more abilities than snipe, you get upset about me “not talking to them right”

Well, when I was younger (like CP 45P) and stupiderer and doing my first dungeons and I did stand in red, I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by guildies who helped me improve.

It’s all about context, if your view is that going ‘don’t stand in the f-ing red idiotboy ‘ is a productive way of distributing your deep inner knowledge, or that that is even remotely productive, then we’ll have to agree to differ.

What part of “don’t stand in red” makes you imagine I’m calling people idiots? Seriously, some people just plain do not want to get better. Many of them become hostile the second you offer them advice, (and yes, before you go off on a tangent, it’s neutral toned advice) that is if they even acknowledge it

Dusk_Coven

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

CP from 1 to 810 who just refuse to move out of big red telegraphed effects

BuildMan wrote: »

Tank : taunt and stand still.

One of these things is not like the other.

In nAA I can recall at least two instances where EVERYONE stands in red -- rushing past the bridge to stand on the rock, and stacking for heals against Storm Atronach boss.
Context is important. Presumably by the time someone is doing trials they understand this.
That said, I can see some arrogant people who think they have enough defenses or procced heals or whatever will just stand in red in a normal dungeon and just parse the boss as if it were a training dummy.

SeaGtGruff

TLDR:

You're not supposed to stand in a red circle except when you're supposed to stand in a red circle, and the person shouting at you knows better than you do when that is.

O_LYKOS

There's no telling some people in dungeons. They just dont want to listen.

I've been levelling a character and doing my daily random. Got another 2 low levels and a cp 300+ (dps).
He kept running ahead of the group and dying to mobs, then complaining we're taking too long and need to speed up.
After asking him to be patient and wait for the group he continued to run ahead and die numerous times lol

daedalusAI

Raideen wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

It's just infuriating how bad/clueless the large majority of players are, and then they just refuse to listen to anything you're telling them:

• CP 320 DK with bow/DW, but his only AoE is spamming Noxious Breath
• Level 45 sorc whose sole goal in life is to spam Crystal Shards until the end of time, no matter what you're telling him
• CP 450 who thinks food is for the weak and runs around with 10k HP; but there seems to be a general aversion to using food in dungeons, or at all for that matter
• CP from 1 to 810 who just refuse to move out of big red telegraphed effects and die as a result, but then get irritated if you point them towards that fact

I'm far from a really good player, but some things like moving out of big red telegraphed effects, slotting at least 1 AoE and listening to feedback from players who just might know more than you are things I have to expect.

Your post only serves to incite hate and harassment towards casual players and they are not the issue, the game design is.

1. The way ESO classes and abilities are created allows for almost incalculable builds and most of them are going to be bad. Not everyone follows the meta FOTM build, some people play because they like abilities that are fun but that do not necessarily contribute to solid DPS. There is no tutorial in game on how to build an effective dungeon class.
2. The 4 man party design for dungeons is also a huge fail. It means that everyone in the party has to pull their equal weight, which in and of itself is not bad, but when you combine it with the class ability design system it's set up as a huge fail. The 4 man party would be better served in WOW where classes are actually classes and people use a relatively specific rotations for each class. There ARE NO specific rotations in ESO unless you copy a build from a streamer/you tuber. This game should have been made with a 5 man group with 3 DPS to allow for a greater variety of players to enter the dungeon that would allow for some misgivings on builds.
3. I play with someone who lives across the world, but they are on the NA servers. I am in skype with them every time we play together and I CONSTANTLY see them standing in red circles. That is WHAT I SEE. On their end, they are moving out of them ASAP. You are pointing fingers at the player when AGAIN, its ZOS fault for bad net code, and no ones fault for general latency which is simply a fact everyone has to deal with.

Get one of your friends, get in a chat program, foot race or mount race them from a point you designate to a destination you designate ( a short race). Ask each other who is in the lead and who is in second place. I bet you 99x out of 100 you think you are ahead of them, and they think they are ahead of you.

What you see happening in game and what another person sees happening in game ESPECIALLY IN REGARDS to red circles are two different things. I have been in red circles, CLEARLY dodged out of it while the circle was still forming/growing and still been one shot. I am in Dallas, the NA server is in Dallas. I run fiber 100 up down with an SSD and a 9900k and RTX 2080 and even a better connection and hardware than 95% of the population in ESO I still get die from seemingly nothing. No red, no mob on me, I just die. It happens DAILY. The combat in ESO is simply badly designed.


So bottom line is, while I COMPLETELY agree that it sucks to be in a run when you are pulling 80% of the DPS because you are partied with someone who has a bad build, or who is simply new, don't blame the player. Blame the game. I see many 810 players who do not even touch dungeons (traders who play more for housing). Just because someone has a high cp does not mean they know how combat works and as I stated, due to the way builds work in this game and due to the fact there is little hand holding, you simply need to adapt because the issue is not the folks you are running with, and ZOS is never going to fix combat in this game (its broken by its literal design). Your only option is to take charge and run with friends/guildies and not pug.

I really don't know what do to or think about your kind:

• I stated facts how people behaved in the groups I played, and now you frame me to "incite hate and harassment towards casual players" by stating those facts? You lost all credibility and integrity you ever had in this thread by saying something like that - but I'm intrigued nevertheless: do you also frame your boss/coworker/relatives to "incite hate and harassment towards other people" if they tell their opinions based on facts?
• The game design is the issue, because the game actually forces people to stand in bad, locks their toolbars which prevents them to use food and prevents them from using any AoE, right? Or do you mean it as in "the game design is the issue because it's no mobile game with an auto-play function, so the player actually has to think to some degree"? You got to be kidding me. That's the most pathetic excuse I've heard in a long time

daedalusAI

Orjix wrote: »

People want to play this game as a single player game because its an Elder Scrolls game, they don't (understandably) want people telling them how to play their Elder Scrolls game, and they want to be able to see/do everything in the game (again understandably, because it's an Elder Scrolls game). Some people are here for Elder Scrolls and are going to want to see and do everything like usual, multiplayer and group content be damned, its an Elder Scrolls game

That's nothing but an excuse.

You can play ESO how you like when you're running around solo, but going into group content with complete disregard of proper contribution to the group only gets you my contempt: if you really want to see everything there is, but don't want to invest time into learning/listening, you have 0 right to be there.

Rungar

the design is bad because it doesnt really engage players. Everyone who runs dungeons wants to get it over with as soon as possible to get the keys or helm.

theres no time to do the quests, barely enough time to talk to another player lest you get left in the dust.
if a player isnt working out more often they are kicked and replaced until someone does work out.

many of these problems are not really player related. Players will always be a mixed bag with the groupfinder.

the problem is the linear design and over reliance on boss fights/boss fight mechanics to make the content.

its a lazy design. Why expect more from players? Is not the whole point of high dps to avoid the mechanics?

its not just the lower end players.

Kelces

Occasionally I encounter inexperienced players in vet dungeons. Besides lacking sufficient damage to even beat a boss, which I have grown accustomed to, there is something else that irritates me in all this: The disinterest in offers to craft them some proper gear for free, since they use heavy armor quite often.

Seems like they don't want any help...

Waynerx8

daedalusAI wrote: »

It's just infuriating how bad/clueless the large majority of players are, and then they just refuse to listen to anything you're telling them:

• CP 320 DK with bow/DW, but his only AoE is spamming Noxious Breath
• Level 45 sorc whose sole goal in life is to spam Crystal Shards until the end of time, no matter what you're telling him
• CP 450 who thinks food is for the weak and runs around with 10k HP; but there seems to be a general aversion to using food in dungeons, or at all for that matter
• CP from 1 to 810 who just refuse to move out of big red telegraphed effects and die as a result, but then get irritated if you point them towards that fact

I'm far from a really good player, but some things like moving out of big red telegraphed effects, slotting at least 1 AoE and listening to feedback from players who just might know more than you are things I have to expect.

They paid for the game also, some might find these types of people annoying, some might find complaining little princesses annoying.

daedalusAI

Waynerx8 wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

It's just infuriating how bad/clueless the large majority of players are, and then they just refuse to listen to anything you're telling them:

• CP 320 DK with bow/DW, but his only AoE is spamming Noxious Breath
• Level 45 sorc whose sole goal in life is to spam Crystal Shards until the end of time, no matter what you're telling him
• CP 450 who thinks food is for the weak and runs around with 10k HP; but there seems to be a general aversion to using food in dungeons, or at all for that matter
• CP from 1 to 810 who just refuse to move out of big red telegraphed effects and die as a result, but then get irritated if you point them towards that fact

I'm far from a really good player, but some things like moving out of big red telegraphed effects, slotting at least 1 AoE and listening to feedback from players who just might know more than you are things I have to expect.

They paid for the game also, some might find these types of people annoying, some might find complaining little princesses annoying.

They paid for access to the game, but not to be carried through group content.

Some might question why a certain kind of person feels compelled to immediately degrade another while offering almost nothing worth of substance.

Cirantille

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Cirantille wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Yuffie91 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Not a joke: I've met CP 160+ toons where the player claims it's their first dungeon EVER.

Maybe they power levelled. Maybe they used XP boosts. Maybe they started during a double XP event. Maybe they levelled their alt doing daily writs. Whatever. Point is, something is going on and some people don't step foot in dungeons till way into their mid to late game.

Some of what you wrote though -- sounds like maybe while they were leveling they forgot to level their skill lines <.<

Or maybe they decide they want to explore the world and quest first?

But the dungeons ARE in the game world. It's like ZOS put them there so you can walk in (you know, maybe because some Undaunted dude in a tavern challenged you to go inside) but whoa! You can't solo it at level 10 or whatever while you're wandering around the game world.
Seems like the design is a bit weird.

In FFXIV and SWL if you try to walk into a dungeon, you get the Group Finder.

Im CP 271, still didn't do any undaunted.
I can join because everyday my guild invites people but I am just not interested in the skill line or the monster sets.

How can you not be interested in extra stats?Undaunted mettle is a pretty good passive.

I mean they are nice additions but not a must, I know I need to grind for them because they are kinda rng.
But I can still gank people without it so I am waiting for the will to get into that :P

Huyen

The biggest issue is that new players are only taught one thing the past few years: MOAR DPS! All they see is people running ahead in normal dungeons, soloing everything. They dont learn about tactics, rotations and such anymore, because the minor group of players (usally the 10% that wants a quick clear) doesnt got the patience to teach the new people.

Long story short: Its an infinite loop of the people creating an issue, that they in the end hate.

VaranisArano

Rungar wrote: »

the design is bad because it doesnt really engage players. Everyone who runs dungeons wants to get it over with as soon as possible to get the keys or helm.

theres no time to do the quests, barely enough time to talk to another player lest you get left in the dust.
if a player isnt working out more often they are kicked and replaced until someone does work out.

many of these problems are not really player related. Players will always be a mixed bag with the groupfinder.

the problem is the linear design and over reliance on boss fights/boss fight mechanics to make the content.

its a lazy design. Why expect more from players? Is not the whole point of high dps to avoid the mechanics?

its not just the lower end players.

Dungeon Design is fine. Boss fights are fun, mechanics interesting, and they don't usually require super high DPS to complete.

It's just that when a large portion of plauers in random dungeons are doing the dungeon for tenth time or more, yeah, you get a nunber of antisocial behaviors cropping up along the lines of "God, I just wanna get this done as soon as possible!" Its worse when its the higher leveled players going "I can solo this thing, keep up!"

Thing is, that's not really a problem with the dungeon design. That's a player problem.

For those of us who played Skyrim, Bleak Falls Barrow was amazing the first time! Second time through, still pretty cool. By the tenth time I knew every enemy placement and trap and was bored out of my skull.

The design of the dungeon didn't change. I just found it a lot less interesting.

Orjix

daedalusAI wrote: »

Orjix wrote: »

People want to play this game as a single player game because its an Elder Scrolls game, they don't (understandably) want people telling them how to play their Elder Scrolls game, and they want to be able to see/do everything in the game (again understandably, because it's an Elder Scrolls game). Some people are here for Elder Scrolls and are going to want to see and do everything like usual, multiplayer and group content be damned, its an Elder Scrolls game

That's nothing but an excuse.

You can play ESO how you like when you're running around solo, but going into group content with complete disregard of proper contribution to the group only gets you my contempt: if you really want to see everything there is, but don't want to invest time into learning/listening, you have 0 right to be there.

sorry but I'm just going to have to disagree, and the only thing I have to stand on is what I have already said. people "starved" for more Elder Scrolls content got the game, and are going to play it as such. IMO there is no reason to invest time in learning anything, people didn't have to learn rotations, not stand in red, and deal with armor sets in the other Elder Scrolls games, so they don't want to in this game. they just want to smack things in the head with a warhammer, and why shouldn't they? they paid for the game, are they not allowed to play how they see fit? The only reason they play group content is because the only way to see that content is in a group. No, I'm not one of the people I'm describing, but I have a few IRL friends who are, so i feel for them.

FearlessOne_2014

Orjix wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Orjix wrote: »

People want to play this game as a single player game because its an Elder Scrolls game, they don't (understandably) want people telling them how to play their Elder Scrolls game, and they want to be able to see/do everything in the game (again understandably, because it's an Elder Scrolls game). Some people are here for Elder Scrolls and are going to want to see and do everything like usual, multiplayer and group content be damned, its an Elder Scrolls game

That's nothing but an excuse.

You can play ESO how you like when you're running around solo, but going into group content with complete disregard of proper contribution to the group only gets you my contempt: if you really want to see everything there is, but don't want to invest time into learning/listening, you have 0 right to be there.

sorry but I'm just going to have to disagree, and the only thing I have to stand on is what I have already said. people "starved" for more Elder Scrolls content got the game, and are going to play it as such. IMO there is no reason to invest time in learning anything, people didn't have to learn rotations, not stand in red, and deal with armor sets in the other Elder Scrolls games, so they don't want to in this game. they just want to smack things in the head with a warhammer, and why shouldn't they? they paid for the game, are they not allowed to play how they see fit? The only reason they play group content is because the only way to see that content is in a group. No, I'm not one of the people I'm describing, but I have a few IRL friends who are, so i feel for them.

Those types of players who don't feel like they should be useful in a group setting. Should just go back to single player games where they don't have to be. The simple fact that they feel entitled to ruin other players experience to have them carry them. Is much worst than the so called "Elitist" Demanding they pull their weight.

Again because ZOS and the community push such attitudes like that on us. Is the main reason "If you queue for PUGing with randos, you lose!" I say to hell with those types of players. They show me no mercy why should I?

ZOS should just get rid of the 15 minute penalty. Why should others have to suffer for other players self entitlement.

SipofMaim

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

No one has to play well in ESO, which is the beauty of it.

I think the devs are trying to accommodate this view. That's why they stopped Craglorn style zones. But Group Finder doesn't know that. Once you hit level 45 you qualify for Undaunted and the queue doesn't care if you are ready for DLC content or tougher dungeons or not. So actually the game/devs expects you to get better.
Even to queue at all you need to be level 10, which means you'd have to try really hard not to have gained any progress in your class skill lines and weapon skill lines -- which in turn suggests the devs expect you to have learned to do more than light attack.

Nowadays people get advised on how to power level, get a port to Alik'r, use one of the many XP scrolls the game hands out like water, and zoom to gear cap. That's worse than not doing the tutorial which at least tries to teach you to block and bash...

Yeah, this is a bad situation and it needs to go. Not grinding - just the part where you can grind up indefinitely without engaging in combat at all, or for those who have a little more pride, without having long enough fights to even think about mechanics or defense. It shouldn't be easy to do that, and it definitely shouldn't be the most accessible grind for noobs.

There's always going to be friction when people are sharing a world and put in situations where we rely on each other, but people progressing without learning the basics is on the devs.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

the design is bad because it doesnt really engage players. Everyone who runs dungeons wants to get it over with as soon as possible to get the keys or helm.

theres no time to do the quests, barely enough time to talk to another player lest you get left in the dust.
if a player isnt working out more often they are kicked and replaced until someone does work out.

many of these problems are not really player related. Players will always be a mixed bag with the groupfinder.

the problem is the linear design and over reliance on boss fights/boss fight mechanics to make the content.

its a lazy design. Why expect more from players? Is not the whole point of high dps to avoid the mechanics?

its not just the lower end players.

Dungeon Design is fine. Boss fights are fun, mechanics interesting, and they don't usually require super high DPS to complete.

It's just that when a large portion of plauers in random dungeons are doing the dungeon for tenth time or more, yeah, you get a nunber of antisocial behaviors cropping up along the lines of "God, I just wanna get this done as soon as possible!" Its worse when its the higher leveled players going "I can solo this thing, keep up!"

Thing is, that's not really a problem with the dungeon design. That's a player problem.

For those of us who played Skyrim, Bleak Falls Barrow was amazing the first time! Second time through, still pretty cool. By the tenth time I knew every enemy placement and trap and was bored out of my skull.

The design of the dungeon didn't change. I just found it a lot less interesting.

Completely off-topic, but that in itself is a design flaw, no? In a single-player game, ok, but when the intended play is for a dungeon to be run multiple times over the course of years... why IS everything the same every time? Who on the face of the world thinks that's going to be fun?

I like the dungeon stories in this game, they're interesting. The aesthetics, same. Clever and even unique mechanics, same. But oh my god the repetition.

Anyway, to return to the topic: human nature doesn't vary much. Smart game devs don't create situations that emphasize the flaws in human nature, and even reward crappy behavior that just saps the fun for everybody more than they reward cooperation. ZOS devs don't seem to spend a lot of thought on this, and it's a shame. It's their world to shape.

Iskiab

ESO has really easy overland content, which is a good thing. If someone wants to they can watch tv and be semi-afk while playing.

Problem is ESO is also extremely complex and takes a willingness to learn. I wouldn’t bother trying to teach people, they have to want to learn. Just join a pve guild. What really sucks is if your main guild is pvp, no one wants to do pve and you’re stuck with pugs.

FearlessOne_2014

Iskiab wrote: »

ESO has really easy overland content, which is a good thing. If someone wants to they can watch tv and be semi-afk while playing.

Problem is ESO is also extremely complex and takes a willingness to learn. I wouldn’t bother trying to teach people, they have to want to learn. Just join a pve guild. What really sucks is if your main guild is pvp, no one wants to do pve and you’re stuck with pugs.

Not really you can have upto 5 guilds on each account. I have 2 PvE guilds and one Trading guild on my account ATM.

VaranisArano

SipofMaim wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

No one has to play well in ESO, which is the beauty of it.

I think the devs are trying to accommodate this view. That's why they stopped Craglorn style zones. But Group Finder doesn't know that. Once you hit level 45 you qualify for Undaunted and the queue doesn't care if you are ready for DLC content or tougher dungeons or not. So actually the game/devs expects you to get better.
Even to queue at all you need to be level 10, which means you'd have to try really hard not to have gained any progress in your class skill lines and weapon skill lines -- which in turn suggests the devs expect you to have learned to do more than light attack.

Nowadays people get advised on how to power level, get a port to Alik'r, use one of the many XP scrolls the game hands out like water, and zoom to gear cap. That's worse than not doing the tutorial which at least tries to teach you to block and bash...

Yeah, this is a bad situation and it needs to go. Not grinding - just the part where you can grind up indefinitely without engaging in combat at all, or for those who have a little more pride, without having long enough fights to even think about mechanics or defense. It shouldn't be easy to do that, and it definitely shouldn't be the most accessible grind for noobs.

There's always going to be friction when people are sharing a world and put in situations where we rely on each other, but people progressing without learning the basics is on the devs.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

the design is bad because it doesnt really engage players. Everyone who runs dungeons wants to get it over with as soon as possible to get the keys or helm.

theres no time to do the quests, barely enough time to talk to another player lest you get left in the dust.
if a player isnt working out more often they are kicked and replaced until someone does work out.

many of these problems are not really player related. Players will always be a mixed bag with the groupfinder.

the problem is the linear design and over reliance on boss fights/boss fight mechanics to make the content.

its a lazy design. Why expect more from players? Is not the whole point of high dps to avoid the mechanics?

its not just the lower end players.

Dungeon Design is fine. Boss fights are fun, mechanics interesting, and they don't usually require super high DPS to complete.

It's just that when a large portion of plauers in random dungeons are doing the dungeon for tenth time or more, yeah, you get a nunber of antisocial behaviors cropping up along the lines of "God, I just wanna get this done as soon as possible!" Its worse when its the higher leveled players going "I can solo this thing, keep up!"

Thing is, that's not really a problem with the dungeon design. That's a player problem.

For those of us who played Skyrim, Bleak Falls Barrow was amazing the first time! Second time through, still pretty cool. By the tenth time I knew every enemy placement and trap and was bored out of my skull.

The design of the dungeon didn't change. I just found it a lot less interesting.

Completely off-topic, but that in itself is a design flaw, no? In a single-player game, ok, but when the intended play is for a dungeon to be run multiple times over the course of years... why IS everything the same every time? Who on the face of the world thinks that's going to be fun?

I like the dungeon stories in this game, they're interesting. The aesthetics, same. Clever and even unique mechanics, same. But oh my god the repetition.

Anyway, to return to the topic: human nature doesn't vary much. Smart game devs don't create situations that emphasize the flaws in human nature, and even reward crappy behavior that just saps the fun for everybody more than they reward cooperation. ZOS devs don't seem to spend a lot of thought on this, and it's a shame. It's their world to shape.

I was responding to someone talking about dungeon design, hence the tangent from the thread topic.

In any case, I think a lot of the repetition comes from the redesign of One Tamriel. Originally, players outleveled early dungeons. Now, ZOS seems to have embraced the idea that players should repeat content as much as possible, and the "changing it up" comes from changing how classes and skills and gear works, or doing the same content with different groups.

That's still not a problem with the original dungeon design, as much as it is rather good point that ZOS encourages players to grind all content until they are sick and tired of it. Any content gets stale and boring when players do too much of it - just look at how tired we get of event grinding.

I mean, I look at the Elsweyr dragons. Their fights are fine, design wise, but I've killed about 10 of them in the last two days, and after this event I'm not going to touch another dragon for a month. Yeah, there's some variety in the fights - enough to make it interesting. But no one is going to make enough variety for players to kill 1 million+ Dragons to save cats and still keep it interesting. I havent touched TG Heists or DB sacraments since their events, because those bore me to tears.

So I don't really buy the idea that its a flaw with the design if its not interesting in perpetuity. Or even still interesting the 10th or 20th time you run the same fight. That's impossible.

I do absolutely agree its a problem with ZOS encouraging players to grind the same content over and over again until players hit the very natural wall of boredom where it becomes a matter of pushing through to get done as fast as possible.

Its one reason I PUG, actually. The mechanics and Bosses stay the same, but my random groupmates are different and often quite entertaining.