Update 24 Combat Preview

ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hey gang!

With Update 24 rapidly approaching, we want to give everyone an idea of the changes in store for combat and abilities. There will of course be highly detailed patch notes when the PTS hits with developer comments, but this post covers the broader themes from the update.

The combat changes in Update 24 are more narrow in focus than those we made with the ability audit in Update 22 and 23. Out of that audit came a few things laying under rocks for a while that came to surface, which we are addressing in Update 24 (mainly Damage over Time abilities). We are also looking to address feedback regarding Wardens, Sorcerers, and Dragonknights specifically in the realm of identity.

First off, let’s talk about Damage over Time (DoT) abilities. In Update 23, we made changes to “over time” abilities to make them more competitive and align to a numerical standard. This resulted in more variety in builds compared to Update 22. However, it’s swung the pendulum a bit too far in the other direction. As we’ve stated before, our audit pass doesn’t mean our numbers are engraved in stone, and this is a case where we missed the mark and are looking to correct that. In Update 24, we will be pulling back on the power of Damage over Time abilities, but not Heal over Time abilities. This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas. We’ve also adjusted our standards of Area of Effect-based DoTs to once again do similar damage to single target counterparts, but with a much greater cost.

With the Necromancer, we achieved a very clear identity throughout their class kit. You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening! In Update 24 we are giving Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerers several updates to reinforce class identity, and in some cases, grant new gameplay options. We do plan on having a more in-depth pass at all classes in the future, but for now, we wanted to make a few changes to abilities that didn’t have enough function to their kit beyond “this ability just does damage”. Ultimately, we want to make sure class abilities have good usage cases and bring something extra. For example, Warden’s Dive ability was either Magicka or Stamina based, and that was it. We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away. It’s these types of adjustments we’re looking to add to classes as a whole to bring more identity and functionality without heavy reliance on skill lines outside of their class kit.

Lastly in Update 24, we are adding several quality of life additions. Major and Minor buffs will now display what they actually do instead of just displaying their name in your character sheet or on your gear. Sprint and Mount Sprint are now handled by the server more efficiently. You will notice that your stamina bar will drain gradually instead of in chunks, and functionality will remain basically the same; we lowered the cost of Sprint, and fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting. These changes are part of a larger effort to reduce the amount of information the ability system has to handle in combat. We are looking to do more passes like this to Block, Roll Dodge and Sneak in the future.

That wraps up the bigger picture of changes coming in Update 24! Remember, this post is not all encompassing and along with all of the above, there will be many bug fixes which will be in full detail in the patch notes.

Victor_Blade

What about that magblade thingy?

VaranisArano

Thank you for the communication! The preview is appreciated, especially the heads-up that Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerors are first on the block for class ability changes.

BohnT2

I think it's a bad idea to refuse any changes to healing over time from the get go.

We might run into a situation where we go back to a too high Time to kill which might make it impossible for certain specs to secure kills due to hots healing for more than they can dish out

SirAxen

Thank you for the communication! I don't speak for the community, but I for one enjoy seeing this type of post at least once a month.

karthrag_inak

What about stamina-based characters? Are they going to get more of a class-identity? i.e. are we going to get more reasonable and useful stamina based class morphs?

Heatnix90

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!
fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting.

So, basically gonna turn Cyrodiil into more mount simulator. This was a bug that didn't really need fixing, why y'all chose to fix that instead of the myriad of other bugs that have a far more negative impact on the gameplay experience (i.e. streak bug, item sets ignoring snare immunity, etc) is beyond me.

Elsonso

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

we lowered the cost of Sprint, and fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting.

Is this sprinting while mounted indefinitely, or something else?

Vigawatt

I've taken the recent updates well, but even this had me smacking my head in frustration. You seemingly move away from AoE and focus more on DoTs, but now the DoTs are too good and you're bringing AoEs back. Your road map for updates is clear: Update 25 will include lower damage for AoEs, again, and increased damage for DoTs, again, and will continue to seesaw.

I think this is the first time I've been frustrated with ESO. The very NEXT update you reverse some changes you made in Update 23, and PTS is like 5 weeks long. It's not inspiring confidence.

goldenarcher1

BuffCaltrops.com

Slayer62

how about ultimate cast times ? just detele it please.

Ragnaroek93

I'm glad that you want to give more identity to classes. But I'm worried that you don't show any love towards Nightblades after taking away lots of their class identity (like nerfing surprise attack and giving Incap a cast time), which leads to the next topic: Please reconsider cast times, it feels so awful.

Czekoludek

So it's gonna be another patch with weak, unintresting magblades? **** it, I'm out.

GeneralSezme

Can we make Overload useful again pls?

Zahktar

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!
we lowered the cost of Sprint, and fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting.

Is this referring to be able to mount up, and continue sprinting on your mount after the stamina bar depletes? Because if so, isn't this the same bug you guys fixed and then almost immediately "unfixed" just a few patches ago?

Why are you fixing it again? Why not just leave it alone? It doesn't really provide any combat benefits or advantages in PvP, and in PvE content it just allows players to travel around more conveniently. Why fix it? And why fix it, unfix it, then fix it again?

SirAxen

Czekoludek wrote: »

So it's gonna be another patch with weak, unintresting magblades? **** it, I'm out.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

Skysenzz

The only identity that necromancer has are bugs & beyond broken ultimate in pve.

crazywolfpusher

Can someone remind me whats the current problem with damage over time abilities? pvp?
i don't quite understand the upcoming stepback

I mean in pvp i die more often because of Dizzying Swing, Onslaught and Crystal frags rather than any dot.
While for pve... havent heard any dungeon boss complaining yet.

CaffeinatedMayhem

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

Can someone remind me whats the current problem with damage over time abilities? pvp?
i don't quite understand the upcoming stepback

I mean in pvp i die more often because of Dizzying Swing, Onslaught and Crystal frags rather than any dot.
While for pve... havent heard any dungeon boss complaining yet.

You must be new here. PvE is only ever nerfed because of PvP. It's been going on for 5 years.

SBB

Just stop trying to make abilities work the same in PVP and PVE. Players use them differently in each and trying to balance for both ruins the other. Make a third morph for PVP use if that's what it takes.

buttaface

Please drop the "audit" BS. In a game that has been out five years, or in ANY system in ANY endeavor, the frequent application of massive back and forth (+/- 25% or usually much higher) pendulum swings in policy, measurement or weighting, as opposed to incremental changes, demonstrates with crystal clarity that nothing resembling a thoughtful "audit" process is ongoing.

Changes such as +/- 5-10% signal critical thinking and meaningful, measured consideration/planning. Higher swings, 25, 75, 100+, etc. do not. A professional business manager looking at the way this game's systems and numbers are shook like a snowglobe every few months would conclude either a) ongoing incompetence, or b) purposeful sharp business practices to keep the players in the casino at the tables longer. Not really any c) answer possible.

The overnerf of Pirate Skeleton and other sets (so many over the years such as NMG), the way the change to mag sorc surge was snuck in arbitrarily at the last minute, the arbitrary way that Overload was nerfed recently based on a few likely doctored death recaps, the arbitrary way that old, good, standard but unique skills like Onslaught were inexplicably changed in ways that almost seem to purposefully insert new issues, etc., etc., etc., and more importantly the way almost all feedback from people who understand the game better than you do is habitually ignored, signal no "audits" are truly ongoing. So you aren't fooling anyone with the insertion of accounting language into what has been a haphazard, knee-jerk process over years now, just drop it.

To be more constructive, 1. Give purge in the PvP tutorial along with rapids (i.e. reverse it's position in support with siege shield), reduce its costs significantly and restructure into both stamina and magicka morphs. 2. Cap instances of ALL DOTs, including different DOTS or instances of the same DOT, on a player to 3 (or X) in PvP.

GeneralSezme

#MakeOverloadGreatAgain

Solariken

Despite the amount of tears on the forums, DOTs don't need to be nerfed at all. Seriously, they are fine as is.

But what's even more crazy is that you want to nerf DOTs and leave healing unchanged. Have you been to a BG lately? Healing is through the roof. You need to tone down pure healing specs, they are WAY stronger than DD counterparts. For real, healers are basically 12-man raid bosses. How about changing Critical Resistance to also reduce the value of healing crits from external sources? Perhaps this would even allow other traits besides Impenetrable to be viable in PvP.

Heatnix90

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

Can someone remind me whats the current problem with damage over time abilities? pvp?
i don't quite understand the upcoming stepback

I mean in pvp i die more often because of Dizzying Swing, Onslaught and Crystal frags rather than any dot.
While for pve... havent heard any dungeon boss complaining yet.

DOT meta is severely overtuned right now because cleansing options are incredibly limited (inb4 forum warriors come in saying "JUST USE PURGE/WYRD TREE BRO"). The Purge skill in the Alliance War skilltree is far too cost intensive for the amount of negative effects it removes. Only magplar and magcro have viable cleanse options in their toolkits, and stamina players are pretty much SOL. This is a problem because of the "fire-and-forget" nature of DOTS in their current state, including the fact that the 2 most used skills right now (Soul Trap and Entropy) are undodgeable and have very low cost. All of this pretty much leads to simplistic, boring gameplay that severely favors stacking numbers in PvP because said numbers can just load up on DOTs and win out over skilled groups.

thatlaurachick wrote: »

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

Can someone remind me whats the current problem with damage over time abilities? pvp?
i don't quite understand the upcoming stepback

I mean in pvp i die more often because of Dizzying Swing, Onslaught and Crystal frags rather than any dot.
While for pve... havent heard any dungeon boss complaining yet.

You must be new here. PvE is only ever nerfed because of PvP. It's been going on for 5 years.

Right because the AoE DoT nerfs we 100% because of PvP. And the shield nerfs. And the sustain nerfs. And the healing nerfs. And the complete destruction of the Magicka Nightblade spec. /sarcasm

Stop making baseless accusations that you have no evidence for. It makes you look dumb.

crazywolfpusher

Oh btw, in those quality of life changes i would like to see Critical Resistance % values, same thing with armor and penetration. That would be very helpful to understand what's going on with those numbers. Also maybe somewhere to check the cost of sprint dodge and block.

UnseenCat

Infinite sprint while mounted? Ummm... that's supposed to be a feature, not a bug. It got messed up and had to be fixed this patch. Riding stamina = resistance to getting knocked off your mount. Riding speed skill = mount running and sprinting speeds at all times while mounted. So mount sprint speed is supposed to be continuous, like regular running speed.

Unless there's a bug that happens to character sprint speed after they've mounted and been knocked off somehow? (Which I've never experienced, but I'm not saying it's impossible...)

Or is this the "Running on top of your mount" visual bug, where once in a while if you're sprinting and mount up, your character remains in the running animation on top of the mount? (Which is a well-known bug, but so hilarious that it's said to have been left in, just because lots of people have an affection for it.)

I'm very confused now...

bilbobaggins30

I'm actually stoked for this update! Now, if we could tune the Ability Altering Weapons to give rise to more choices in PvE than just the vMA weapons (competitive DPS wise), that would be my dream! However, classes need more identity, and for that, I'm thankful of that.

This alone makes me excited:
"We’ve also adjusted our standards of Area of Effect-based DoTs to once again do similar damage to single target counterparts, but with a much greater cost."

Yes, AoE should cost more than Single Target, that is fair. The AoE nerfs were unjustified, until you said you would buff them in exchange for a higher cost. Fair, I am dealing damage to more than 1 target, it should cost more resources.

MasterSpatula

You have no idea how much better about the game it makes me feel just to read the following words:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

this is a case where we missed the mark and are looking to correct that.

However:

With the Necromancer, we achieved a very clear identity throughout their class kit. You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening! In Update 24 we are giving Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerers several updates to reinforce class identity, and in some cases, grant new gameplay options. We do plan on having a more in-depth pass at all classes in the future, but for now, we wanted to make a few changes to abilities that didn’t have enough function to their kit beyond “this ability just does damage”. Ultimately, we want to make sure class abilities have good usage cases and bring something extra. For example, Warden’s Dive ability was either Magicka or Stamina based, and that was it. We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away. It’s these types of adjustments we’re looking to add to classes as a whole to bring more identity and functionality without heavy reliance on skill lines outside of their class kit.

I'm really begging you not to try to retrofit the Base Game classes with the 1 skill line for damage, 1 skill line for heals, 1 skill line for tanking paradigm. I'm hoping this isn't your plan, but in case it is, I want to remind you that the classes were designed around SnB and Resto as the primary ways to play the support roles with a few class abilities sprinkled in to supplement those weapon skills. The skills that give the classes their distinctions give us, your players, joy. They are part of the story of our characters. Keeping us attached to the characters we've grown to love should be one of your most vital goals.

I'm not saying there's no wiggle room to change some abilities, but the class lines should largely remain in the heterogenous way they were designed. Class skills that provide essential utility and class identity (like Power Surge) should not be shifted into a different role. If an ability is to be radically changed to a fundamentally different role, it should be one that's underperforming and is underused. Which isn't to argue against balancing (nerfing) overperforming skills. But you should probably avoid straight-up taking away things that give your players joy.

The full skill lines simply weren't built to service individual roles in the MMO Trinity and shouldn't be refit for them. Doing so would not serve the goal of strengthening the flavor of each class.

code65536

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting

That so-called "bug" has been how the game has behaved for countless years. At this point, I'm pretty sure everyone regards it as a feature. And a desirable one, too.

You will be making the game worse by branding this behavior as a "bug" and then "fixing" it.

avelopolcakb14a_ESO

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

With the Necromancer, we achieved a very clear identity throughout their class kit. You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening! In Update 24 we are giving Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerers several updates to reinforce class identity, and in some cases, grant new gameplay options. We do plan on having a more in-depth pass at all classes in the future, but for now, we wanted to make a few changes to abilities that didn’t have enough function to their kit beyond “this ability just does damage”. Ultimately, we want to make sure class abilities have good usage cases and bring something extra. For example, Warden’s Dive ability was either Magicka or Stamina based, and that was it. We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away. It’s these types of adjustments we’re looking to add to classes as a whole to bring more identity and functionality without heavy reliance on skill lines outside of their class kit.

Why would you add off balance, a debuff which lasts 5 seconds, to a spammable ability? What is the intended use case for this change? With this change you would nerf birds for PvP, giving your opponent a basically free CC immunity after break free, and add nothing significant to the PvE kit. Not only is off balance not unique to the warden or anyone for that matter, it adds nothing at all to the classes identity.Remember, all bosses have off balance immunity for 15 seconds after its duration ends. Do you envision a build centered around "off balance" that is the sole purpose of the bird spamming warden to provide? Or are you just throwing stuff at the wall at this point?

Revokus

@ZOS_BrianWheeler What about Blastbones ? and other issues with the Necromancer class in pvp ?