Update 24 Combat Preview

zParallaxz

thatlaurachick wrote: »

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

Can someone remind me whats the current problem with damage over time abilities? pvp?
i don't quite understand the upcoming stepback

I mean in pvp i die more often because of Dizzying Swing, Onslaught and Crystal frags rather than any dot.
While for pve... havent heard any dungeon boss complaining yet.

You must be new here. PvE is only ever nerfed because of PvP. It's been going on for 5 years.

Excluding the patch that had sustain nerfs to cp because it was to easy to sustain in PvE.

KappaKid83

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

With Update 24 rapidly approaching, we want to give everyone an idea of the changes in store for combat and abilities. There will of course be highly detailed patch notes when the PTS hits with developer comments, but this post covers the broader themes from the update.

The combat changes in Update 24 are more narrow in focus than those we made with the ability audit in Update 22 and 23. Out of that audit came a few things laying under rocks for a while that came to surface, which we are addressing in Update 24 (mainly Damage over Time abilities). We are also looking to address feedback regarding Wardens, Sorcerers, and Dragonknights specifically in the realm of identity.

First off, let’s talk about Damage over Time (DoT) abilities. In Update 23, we made changes to “over time” abilities to make them more competitive and align to a numerical standard. This resulted in more variety in builds compared to Update 22. However, it’s swung the pendulum a bit too far in the other direction. As we’ve stated before, our audit pass doesn’t mean our numbers are engraved in stone, and this is a case where we missed the mark and are looking to correct that. In Update 24, we will be pulling back on the power of Damage over Time abilities, but not Heal over Time abilities. This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas. We’ve also adjusted our standards of Area of Effect-based DoTs to once again do similar damage to single target counterparts, but with a much greater cost.

With the Necromancer, we achieved a very clear identity throughout their class kit. You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening! In Update 24 we are giving Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerers several updates to reinforce class identity, and in some cases, grant new gameplay options. We do plan on having a more in-depth pass at all classes in the future, but for now, we wanted to make a few changes to abilities that didn’t have enough function to their kit beyond “this ability just does damage”. Ultimately, we want to make sure class abilities have good usage cases and bring something extra. For example, Warden’s Dive ability was either Magicka or Stamina based, and that was it. We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away. It’s these types of adjustments we’re looking to add to classes as a whole to bring more identity and functionality without heavy reliance on skill lines outside of their class kit.

Lastly in Update 24, we are adding several quality of life additions. Major and Minor buffs will now display what they actually do instead of just displaying their name in your character sheet or on your gear. Sprint and Mount Sprint are now handled by the server more efficiently. You will notice that your stamina bar will drain gradually instead of in chunks, and functionality will remain basically the same; we lowered the cost of Sprint, and fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting. These changes are part of a larger effort to reduce the amount of information the ability system has to handle in combat. We are looking to do more passes like this to Block, Roll Dodge and Sneak in the future.

That wraps up the bigger picture of changes coming in Update 24! Remember, this post is not all encompassing and along with all of the above, there will be many bug fixes which will be in full detail in the patch notes.

This is my favorite QoL update

karekiz

Eweroun wrote: »

This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas.

Why do I have the fear that PVE will be the victim again?

Unless they actually use that battle spirit system they forgot about it will be. The AoE change is honestly baffling. They swapped abilities to coordinate with the AoE change to "balance" them for the reduced damage. Now they want to increase them but are they going to bother to change the abilities back or are we going to end up with hail/caltrops old damage with new effects on top <Remember posters each new "effect" adds lag which they keep adding in a weird twist!>.

If so I am ok with increased damage, never been one to scream nerf in a game where DPS gap is as big as a crater.

Starlock

Thanks for the update, sir!

As someone who focuses far more on character identity than class identity it'll be interesting to see what the team has come up with. As usual, my concerns are more related to whether or not changes to game mechanics strip my characters of who they are rather than fussing about the number crunching. It takes pretty dramatic changes for that to happen so I'm not too worried, but as some users have expressed concern about converting the three skill lines of each class to the tank/heal/damage focus that warden and necromancer have, something like that has a pretty high probability of seriously messing with my character designs.

With respect to damage over time (DoT) abilities, I'm not sure how I feel about those yet. When I first logged in after the patch, I definitely had several moments of staring in bug-eyed disbelief at how high the tooltips were even on characters who were not really tuned to focus on DoTs. I saw some images folks posted from PTS, but I disregarded them because they were put up by people min-maxing and I knew that I would be nowhere near that. Even so, they were still pretty crazy! And if they're pretty crazy for someone who isn't a min-maxer, it probably is something that needs looked at, eh?

As for area of effect (AoE) abilities, I'm actually really liking the changes in most respects. I have been playing most with lightning mage (magicka sorcerer) a character who uses lots of AoEs. The lower cost and lower damage actually really nice because it makes it much easier to sustain his casting. Hearing that will be reversing again by raising damage and raising costs of AoEs again makes me a bit sad. Maybe some of the "class identity" ideas for sorcerer you have will help address this?

Also, this is awesome:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Major and Minor buffs will now display what they actually do instead of just displaying their name in your character sheet or on your gear.

I'm a veteran of this game by this point, but when I first started I remember how much of the game was about as transparent as mud. This will really help increase transparency, especially for new players.

Heatnix90

Eweroun wrote: »

This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas.

Why do I have the fear that PVE will be the victim again?

PvE dislikes scalebreaker just as much as PvP does. Mainly because Necromancer wasn't addressed, and because the patch basically ruined class/rotation diversity.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening!

NO, you are not LOL....

Your combat team ignored the WHOLE Werewolf feedback in update 23. How that counts as "we are listening!" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Stop trying to make Werewolf relevant.

PenguinInACan

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We do plan on having a more in-depth pass at all classes in the future, but for now, we wanted to make a few changes to abilities that didn’t have enough function to their kit beyond “this ability just does damage”. Ultimately, we want to make sure class abilities have good usage cases and bring something extra.

What is exactly wrong with class abilities that "just do damage" or pure support class abilities? Build diversity is a thing because of the lack of secondary/tertiary effects on all of the class abilities. The more buffs/debuffs that are added to class skills, the less builds will rely on other skills/armor sets/potion/poisons/group synergy when theorycrafting builds. People should have to prioritize play-styles, but when their toolkit is a collection of multi-tools instead of the basics we get a theorycrafting meta that seems very cookie cutter.

It seems like this audit is very anti-theorycrafting so far, and this post only reinforces my opinion of this.

Shantu

I hate PVP...if for nothing more than the stupid, unnecessary changes it brings to PVE. This game would be SO much better without it. But Mr. Wheeler's title tells us all we need to know. This is really getting old.

Kahnak

I only play the class that's been top DPS for the passed 5 years. If you don't buff that class I'm unsubscribing, because I can't play any other class.

Jarrods32

So now sets like deadly will become useless again ... zos team could atleast give us 6months or so on a new update to enjoy the build we grind out new gear for instead of instantly killing them a month or so later ... I'll be extremely happy when a new game releases and can finally walk away from eso and this design team

jecks33

Jarrods32 wrote: »

So now sets like deadly will become useless again ...

improved mine to legendary just yesterday.....

Elsonso

Tatanko wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting

If this refers to the ability to sprint infinitely while mounted, please do not make this change. NO ONE wants this change, and I truly and surely mean NO ONE.

Yes. I am worried that they "fixed" this... After denying it was a bug for years.

zvavi

COMMUNICATION OMG!!! When i get home i am subbing for a month
Edit: do not worry, you will also get your previously promised cookie if group finder works next update

FenrisWolf1136

Any updates on werewolves now that they have been gutted and do so little damage compared to last update? What about the pack leader morph as well?

Inval1d

No love for Templars..

zParallaxz

Jarrods32 wrote: »

So now sets like deadly will become useless again ... zos team could atleast give us 6months or so on a new update to enjoy the build we grind out new gear for instead of instantly killing them a month or so later ... I'll be extremely happy when a new game releases and can finally walk away from eso and this design team

That’s the main issue of not having a Fortnite type weekly to biweekly balancing. People may get stuck dealing against Goliath bash builds for several months, even though it was mentioned by others who tested it in PTS. Tbh I think no combat based game should balance the skills in 4-5 month intervals. It just makes your player base be the one to deal with issue for the entire time being.

FilteredRiddle

MasterSpatula wrote: »

You have no idea how much better about the game it makes me feel just to read the following words:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

this is a case where we missed the mark and are looking to correct that.

However:

With the Necromancer, we achieved a very clear identity throughout their class kit. You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening! In Update 24 we are giving Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerers several updates to reinforce class identity, and in some cases, grant new gameplay options. We do plan on having a more in-depth pass at all classes in the future, but for now, we wanted to make a few changes to abilities that didn’t have enough function to their kit beyond “this ability just does damage”. Ultimately, we want to make sure class abilities have good usage cases and bring something extra. For example, Warden’s Dive ability was either Magicka or Stamina based, and that was it. We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away. It’s these types of adjustments we’re looking to add to classes as a whole to bring more identity and functionality without heavy reliance on skill lines outside of their class kit.

I'm really begging you not to try to retrofit the Base Game classes with the 1 skill line for damage, 1 skill line for heals, 1 skill line for tanking paradigm. I'm hoping this isn't your plan, but in case it is, I want to remind you that the classes were designed around SnB and Resto as the primary ways to play the support roles with a few class abilities sprinkled in to supplement those weapon skills. The skills that give the classes their distinctions give us, your players, joy. They are part of the story of our characters. Keeping us attached to the characters we've grown to love should be one of your most vital goals.

I'm not saying there's no wiggle room to change some abilities, but the class lines should largely remain in the heterogenous way they were designed. Class skills that provide essential utility and class identity (like Power Surge) should not be shifted into a different role. If an ability is to be radically changed to a fundamentally different role, it should be one that's underperforming and is underused. Which isn't to argue against balancing (nerfing) overperforming skills. But you should probably avoid straight-up taking away things that give your players joy.

The full skill lines simply weren't built to service individual roles in the MMO Trinity and shouldn't be refit for them. Doing so would not serve the goal of strengthening the flavor of each class.

This response sums up my feelings really well.

From the beginning, I thought the Templar and DK class were handled the best, in terms of intermixing Healer/Tank skills in the class while still making the useful from a utilitarian DPS stand point. Radiant Aura is hugely useful for a Healer to cast to make sure Minor Magickasteal is on all of the adds, but Repentence is a game changer for Stamplars in 3 DPS situations. Deep Breath is a necessity for DK Tanks I’m sweaty, add-stacked interrupt scenarios but Draw Essence is a very useful MagDK skill in sweaty, add-stacked, high incoming dmg situations. They had a bar which absolutely better lent itself to one support role but it wasn’t a requirement and it wasn’t strictly tied to that role. Going to a set-up where every single class has one line for each role is not progress

olsborg

How about master destrostaffs not synergising at allwith the ability it augments?

Major_Lag

Derra wrote: »

That depends entirely on how they adress "this ability just does dmg" though.

The usual way ZOS does things: "this ability is complete trash now"

Swen_von_Walhallion

and waht about stamplars ? they are in bad spot long time and still no change

Gnortranermara

Lots of good news there. A few concerns:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We’ve also adjusted our standards of Area of Effect-based DoTs to once again do similar damage to single target counterparts, but with a much greater cost.

Whyyyyy? I probably said it 100 times during last PTS cycle, ~30% less damage and ~30% higher cost was too extreme. The idea itself is great, the problem was the extreme implementation. 15% less damage and higher cost would be fine. Subtle tweaking works better than pulling out a sledgehammer every time something needs fixing.

Also, ground-targeted AOE DOT's (wall, path, spear, etc) should not be treated the same as targeted DOT's that stick to the enemy (Splitting trap, reflective light, dk fire breath, etc). Ground-targeting should have a slightly more generous modifier (say, 10%) to make up for the fact that many ticks will miss mobile targets.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

In Update 24 we are giving Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerers several updates to reinforce class identity, and in some cases, grant new gameplay options.

Cool. But can Templar get like, 1 thing maybe? Something quick and easy, like changing Sun Fire's buff from Major Prophecy to Minor Force, Berserk, or Heroism? Prophecy is redundant in most builds and all of these alternatives would open up some new build options for Templar to hold us over until you get around to them in U25 (or beyond)!

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Lastly in Update 24, we are adding several quality of life additions...... fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting.

That is a QoL nerf. Why? Instead, why not take this opportunity to make a major QoL improvement across the board and eliminate the stam cost for all out-of-combat running (mounted and on foot). Instead of a cost, just stop regen when out-of-combat (like blocking). Running slower is not fun. This little mobility boost would greatly increase the enjoyability of the game without any serious effect on combat balance. (Just increase the stam damage caused by taking damage to keep stam relevant for mounts.)

While I'm talking mobility QoL, could you please undo the QoL nerf to PvE sets that give Major Expedition (VO and FG)? I understand nerfing Major Expedition duration in PvP, but these are PvE-specific sets so the shorter duration is just an unnecessary QoL nerf.

_Ahala_

Very happy that magden is finally getting some attention in the upcoming patch. The news on off-balance dive and the fact that swarm and morphs will also be getting some love this patch give me hope.

Some very important feedback regarding cliff racer though. If it is to become wardens main spammable the projectile speed really needs some adjustment as it is still far too slow compared to weapon and world alternatives to be used effectively against skilled targets in PvP and if maintaining range is to become an integral part of wardens offensive toolkit then a class based mobility buff is most certainly in order as the brief expedition buff bird of prey prey really doesn't help in a game with so many passive snares and roots and icy aura is still rather terrible as a mobility passive

SosRuvaak

soo ww just gets worse...

pretty heartbreaking to play this game for 5 years and the devs ruin it.
idk what yall are doing, this isnt how i want to play eso anymore.

Haink

Hi there, any changes to werewolf?

xWarbrain

Hi @ZOS_BrianWheeler ,

Could you please skip any changes you plan for the Warden? It's fine the way it is. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Someone who most likely has far more experience on Mag & Stam Wardens in PvP and PvE than you.

Jabbs_Giggity

What's the stink with Werewolves lately? I don't play one and just don't get it....so many posts and threads about "ZOS refuses to address Werewolves", yet I haven't seen any supporting information regarding what should be addressed; it's always, "Buff Werewolves" or "No love for Werewolves".

I would rather see a full skill line added for Vampires than hear any more talk about Werewolves, which still do excess amounts of bleed damage and oh my 'Lanta that Howl! So unbelievable annoying and over-spammed...

ESO_Nightingale

xWarbrain wrote: »

Hi @ZOS_BrianWheeler ,

Could you please skip any changes you plan for the Warden? It's fine the way it is. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Someone who most likely has far more experience on Mag & Stam Wardens in PvP and PvE than you.

?

GeorgeBlack

Enough with the numbers and stats and major minor buffs debuffs

We need active abilities, not more Timers.

StamDK
Stamina Stone Fist.
Stamina Talons
Stamina Deep Breath
Stamina Reflective Plate (New ability)
Stamina Fossilize
Stamina Ash Cloud

BennyButton

Hello @ZOS_BrianWheeler please see below:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

We are also looking to address feedback regarding Wardens, Sorcerers, and Dragonknights specifically in the realm of identity.

Please make sure with regards to class identity you do not drastically change the warden healer identity, the warden is currently one of the two best healers in the game. You should, however, look into sorc/dragonknight healing toolkits and ensure you don't continuously nerf things such as the twilight matriarch and/or cinder storm.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

This resulted in more variety in builds compared to Update 22.

I disagree with this statement. Currently, there are two builds: stam = vDSA bow/vMA dual wield, lokkestiiz, and relequen, mag = 9 DoT rotation.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

In Update 24, we will be pulling back on the power of Damage over Time abilities, but not Heal over Time abilities. This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas.

Please remember to also scale the single target abilities so you don't nerf dps without compensating for that!

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

For example, Warden’s Dive ability was either Magicka or Stamina based, and that was it. We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away.

As others have stated, off balance on a spammable ability is pointless, it would be much better to add something like a heal on hit with the distance equaling the percentage of your health being healed up (i.e. 12 meters away, that's 12% of your max health that you heal for). This would result in careful planning of where DPS stand during fights, etc.

Please look into alternatives to just adding certain debuffs/buffs to skills, and think outside the box!

Hope this helps

ESO_Nightingale

BennyButton wrote: »

Hello @ZOS_BrianWheeler please see below:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

We are also looking to address feedback regarding Wardens, Sorcerers, and Dragonknights specifically in the realm of identity.

Please make sure with regards to class identity you do not drastically change the warden healer identity, the warden is currently one of the two best healers in the game. You should, however, look into sorc/dragonknight healing toolkits and ensure you don't continuously nerf things such as the twilight matriarch and/or cinder storm.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

This resulted in more variety in builds compared to Update 22.

I disagree with this statement. Currently, there are two builds: stam = vDSA bow/vMA dual wield, lokkestiiz, and relequen, mag = 9 DoT rotation.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

In Update 24, we will be pulling back on the power of Damage over Time abilities, but not Heal over Time abilities. This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas.

Please remember to also scale the single target abilities so you don't nerf dps without compensating for that!

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

For example, Warden’s Dive ability was either Magicka or Stamina based, and that was it. We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away.

As others have stated, off balance on a spammable ability is pointless, it would be much better to add something like a heal on hit with the distance equaling the percentage of your health being healed up (i.e. 12 meters away, that's 12% of your max health that you heal for). This would result in careful planning of where DPS stand during fights, etc.

Please look into alternatives to just adding certain debuffs/buffs to skills, and think outside the box!

Hope this helps

I disagree with your suggestion entirely. Warden has enough healing through the entire green balance line, Arctic Blast for whatever god awful reason, and animal companions skills when the animal "despawns". Healing is not an issue. The off balance is actually useful. BUT the way in which to achieve it is unsatisfactory because we already report that SCR's damage bonus at range is unreliable because of Scorch. Both of these should be adressed and the range requirement for the new off balance reversed to 12 meters or less away from a target.

FrancisCrawford

SirAxen wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

So it's gonna be another patch with weak, unintresting magblades? **** it, I'm out.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

The horse will be moving more slowly.