Update 24 Combat Preview

Seperatist

Is this nerfsorc thread?

MLGProPlayer

The warden class is actually getting some attention. I didn't think I'd ever see the day. I had to re-read the note 3 or 4 times to make sure I wasn't seeing things.

This is the first balance patch I've ever been excited about.

IwakuraLain42

buttaface wrote: »

Please drop the "audit" BS. In a game that has been out five years, or in ANY system in ANY endeavor, the frequent application of massive back and forth (+/- 25% or usually much higher) pendulum swings in policy, measurement or weighting, as opposed to incremental changes, demonstrates with crystal clarity that nothing resembling a thoughtful "audit" process is ongoing.

Changes such as +/- 5-10% signal critical thinking and meaningful, measured consideration/planning. Higher swings, 25, 75, 100+, etc. do not. A professional business manager looking at the way this game's systems and numbers are shook like a snowglobe every few months would conclude either a) ongoing incompetence, or b) purposeful sharp business practices to keep the players in the casino at the tables longer. Not really any c) answer possible.

There is a c) (or actually more of a b)+) option: they way ZOS handles these so called "balance changes" is just their way to simulate gear progression (as the level cap is perpetually set at CP160). All these changes are just meant to force you regrind new gear and keep you occupied.

WillhelmBlack

Old Power Lash and reflect pls. No more wacky changes.

MartiniDaniels

Mayrael wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

What about that magblade thingy?

Who cares about magblades? Everyone hates them because of cloak (doesn't matter there is like dozens of counters) but somehow nobody plays them because when they try to play them they realise it's not as easy as it seems, when someone actually uses some of those counters you don't have one button skill that will save your a**.

Sometimes I think even ZOS is mistaking magblades and stamblades. When they want to nerf stamblades, they nerf magblades. When they want to buff magblades, they buff stamblades more.

About skills. DoTs are going to get nerfed, I just hope ALL dots will be nerfed not just the two shout out by stam community.

What about Onslaught? 22k crits in PvP (I've done it on a magicka character!) are far from being balanced or counter able.

Why when speaking about direct damage, people are always talk about hand-picked mysterious "crits" of high-crit damage builds against some PVE-er with 10k resistances and 0 critical resistance? Vs balanced build onslaught hits for damage comparable to frags, bow proc, molten whip and so on. I've played ~30 hours in no-CP this patch, most onslaughts in recap are 6-7k, sometimes (very rare, and usually when you weren't buffed properly) 8-9k.

Btw, I had 15k snipe (actual hit on player) with AS bow on PTS on high-crit damage build + corrosive, this means that all snipes now hit for 15k?

Onslaught is powerful, but it can be dodged which leaves onslaught user with empty ultimate bar and no effect. Maybe it require some adjustment, but then a lot of other things should be adjusted too. There are ton of ways to kill fast this patch, onslaught is just one of them.

Onslaught is very definitive counter to high-resistance builds and so it should remain. Running 30k resistances myself + major protection a lot of players simply can't do any notable damage to that combination... onslaught fixes this.

Derra

BohnT2 wrote: »

I think it's a bad idea to refuse any changes to healing over time from the get go.

We might run into a situation where we go back to a too high Time to kill which might make it impossible for certain specs to secure kills due to hots healing for more than they can dish out

That depends entirely on how they adress "this ability just does dmg" though.

technohic

I personally appreciate the continued look at last patch changes and adjusting accordingly rather than trying to mess with something else and just avoid addressing what was done before was wrong. However; rather than just straight damage adjustment alone, have you thought about making DOTs more interesting?

I'm thinking having the more potent ticks but shorter duration. Like over 4 seconds rather than 8. Makes it less fire and forget and let everyone stack them, to more beneficial to the individual keeping up pressure.

Or if I steal from a game I used to play with an ability called "cull", if you have a DOT class, they apply the dots which are relatively weak on their own, but then activating and ability on the target causes them to tick much harder.

ESO_Nightingale

avelopolcakb14a_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

With the Necromancer, we achieved a very clear identity throughout their class kit. You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening! In Update 24 we are giving Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerers several updates to reinforce class identity, and in some cases, grant new gameplay options. We do plan on having a more in-depth pass at all classes in the future, but for now, we wanted to make a few changes to abilities that didn’t have enough function to their kit beyond “this ability just does damage”. Ultimately, we want to make sure class abilities have good usage cases and bring something extra. For example, Warden’s Dive ability was either Magicka or Stamina based, and that was it. We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away. It’s these types of adjustments we’re looking to add to classes as a whole to bring more identity and functionality without heavy reliance on skill lines outside of their class kit.

Why would you add off balance, a debuff which lasts 5 seconds, to a spammable ability? What is the intended use case for this change? With this change you would nerf birds for PvP, giving your opponent a basically free CC immunity after break free, and add nothing significant to the PvE kit. Not only is off balance not unique to the warden or anyone for that matter, it adds nothing at all to the classes identity.Remember, all bosses have off balance immunity for 15 seconds after its duration ends. Do you envision a build centered around "off balance" that is the sole purpose of the bird spamming warden to provide? Or are you just throwing stuff at the wall at this point?

My guess why they added it was so that we'd have another stun option, or one that is actually useful. So what i see here is a completely PvP focused change, it's not what i would have personally given the skill but i can certainly see it's new use and can appreciate it. the skill is now something more than just "raw damage" it's a spammable and soft stun essentially. that is so so much better than what it was. And it also can help to relieve the painpoint of Arctic Blast. Though they actually could be making that skill worth something now based on this post. Don't forget that a fully charged heavy attack on a person/enemy with off balance increases the damage and resource return significantly as well.

Tommy_The_Gun

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are also looking to address feedback regarding Wardens, Sorcerers, and Dragonknights specifically in the realm of identity.

You guys are still going to ignore Werewolf feedback ? For how long ? All WW pain points in update 23 got ignored. The WW official feedback thread literally got longer by 1/3 after update 23... that is how drastic and severe changes are.

ZOS, your behaviour makes me think that you simply dont want Werewolf in your game. Vamp on the other hand ? It is more or less a necessity for PvE & PvP...

MooseKnuckles88

As someone who mains a Warden idk if I should be excited or extremely nervous.

Tsar_Gekkou

I'm wondering if they're going to unscrew power surge or at least give major sorcery to crit surge, and if they're going buff other stam classes so trials dps aren't just 8 stamcros?

ESO_Nightingale

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

As someone who mains a Warden idk if I should be excited or extremely nervous.

Just don't expect anything else good. that way it shouldn't hurt as much if we get really bad changes.

x48rph

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

First off, let’s talk about Damage over Time (DoT) abilities. In Update 23, we made changes to “over time” abilities to make them more competitive and align to a numerical standard. This resulted in more variety in builds compared to Update 22. However, it’s swung the pendulum a bit too far in the other direction. As we’ve stated before, our audit pass doesn’t mean our numbers are engraved in stone, and this is a case where we missed the mark and are looking to correct that. In Update 24, we will be pulling back on the power of Damage over Time abilities, but not Heal over Time abilities. This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas. We’ve also adjusted our standards of Area of Effect-based DoTs to once again do similar damage to single target counterparts, but with a much greater cost.

This is what annoys and disturbs me the most. You say this like you nerfed AOE hard and buffed DOTs ridiculously high but didn't realize it til it went live that it was too much. There were countless threads from people testing on the PTS about how the changes needed toned down, they were way to much and you ignored every single one of them. So then you remain silent, let the changes go live, let all the players resign themselves to dealing with it so they build around it and now , lo and behold, your going to do the exact opposite this patch , nerf dots and buff aoes. You can't tell me this isn't done deliberately to force people to constantly keep grinding new gear and stuff to deal with these changes. You do realize that some of us are really sick of having to completely change our build every three months. This has been the worst year for this crap yet.

How about for once instead of these mysterious balance changes that will never actually balance anything or more new content, you just focus on the massive list of bugs in your game so maybe it will work right. Doesn't matter how strong or weak an ability is if you get locked out of your bars and can't use any of them , or your stuck running in place with only half the landscape drawn while someone else just runs up and kills you......

Tatanko

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

fixed an old bug where you could sprint infinitely after mounting

If this refers to the ability to sprint infinitely while mounted, please do not make this change. NO ONE wants this change, and I truly and surely mean NO ONE.

Jabbs_Giggity

"Wardens, Sorcers and Dragonknights..."

Tommy_The_Gun

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

"Wardens, Sorcers and Dragonknights..."

...Will get nerfed...

markulrich1966

nerfing the mount speed after nerfing rapid manoeuver (RM) from 30 to 8 seconds.

The latter has this effect, that I would like to see adressed before you add even more nerfs.

I used RM often, e.g. to bring my crafted writ items to the delivery station in Rimmen.
After the nerf, I tried to use my mount instead.
Unfortunately, using a mount in Rimmen results in loadscreens, that last up to 2 minutes on xbox EU.
A similar issue you have in Alinor.

Since this nerf I often feel annoyed and angry playing ESO. Not as before in specific situations because of other bugs and nerfs, but now constantly (as I also can no longer run through daily delves with magicka based characers).

In addition to this permanent frustration, you now add more by "bugfixing" the mount speed? You can't be serious. I have the impression that you try by all means to frustrate your custoomers so much, that they finally give up playing this game.

ESO_Nightingale

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

"Wardens, Sorcers and Dragonknights..."

continue your sentence?

Jabbs_Giggity

"Wardens, Sorcerers and Dragonknights..."

So, unless ZOS is specifically talking about Stamina variants of each class the only class mentioned in need of "Identity" is Magicka Warden.

However, with that being said I, for one, am not looking forward to MORE utility being given to DK and Warden. The Stamina DK META of high DPS + High survivability + High mobility coupled with Heavy Armor healing passives and broken Heavy Armor DPS sets on top of DK's Major Mending (You're welcome - says the Templar) is not something I would like to return to (Update 22).

Sorcerers (Stamina) specifically and Templars (Stamina) are in dire need to identity.
Sorcerers are in need of:
Better sustain and spammable for Stamina variants; more stamina morph options of skills and better passive synergies with Stamina gameplay.
Templars are in need of:
Revert to revert of Sweeps/Jabs targeting!!!!!! Or at very least a rework of the skill (As the Templar feedback threads are littered with requests for this....Remove the AOE component, make skill single target channel with AOE splash damage within 3m range - Move Snare to first hit
Sustain!!!!!!
Proactive defense and better healing to match the Magicka counterpart.
MOBILITY!!!!!!!! Stamina-based Templars should not be so slow....

Magicka Nightblades are in dire need of Utility, as the class in general has been stripped of most utility and spread across unused skills that do not fit the playstyle.


With certain bugs mentioned above that need to be addressed...what about the Templar Lag issue?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6318384#Comment_6318384

For all that are going to dump on Templars...play the class first, please? Yes they are strong because of ZOS's direction on ST DoTs and the broken Eclipse (by the way, I tried playing with Living Dark and it's really not thaaat OP....get over yourself.)

Want more build diversity?! Make Weapons scale on highest stat?! Can't LA or HA sustain Magicka on a DW....make it scale on highest stat....Add a new weapon skill line for Magicka Melee users. Want a new ranged option for Stamina? A Spear skill line can provide both melee and range options.

Add some flavor to the game by introducing new things the player base has been suggesting instead of the constant see-saw nerf hammer or look at pre-patches where classes actually HAD some flavor because of their identity...
Nightblades were shadowy killers.
Templars were Magicka Knights or great utility Healers
DK's were great utility Tanks (an option to look at is making them more Dragon-like - how's that for identity?)
Sorcerer's were exactly that! Conjurers of magical dominance.
Wardens, IMO, were like a bad attempt at building Diablo 2's Druid. However, it lacked at that even. They were given bits of Templar Identity mixed with parts of Sorcerers and a summoner identity without enough summons.

Jabbs_Giggity

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

"Wardens, Sorcers and Dragonknights..."

continue your sentence?

I did...not sure why it posted before I posted myself lol See full comment in thread.

ESO_Nightingale

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

"Wardens, Sorcers and Dragonknights..."

continue your sentence?

I did...not sure why it posted before I posted myself lol See full comment in thread.

oh, i wrote that comment as you were writing. your continued comment wasn't there when i posted mine

Jabbs_Giggity

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

"Wardens, Sorcers and Dragonknights..."

continue your sentence?

I did...not sure why it posted before I posted myself lol See full comment in thread.

oh, i wrote that comment as you were writing. your continued comment wasn't there when i posted mine

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

"Wardens, Sorcerers and Dragonknights..."

So, unless ZOS is specifically talking about Stamina variants of each class the only class mentioned in need of "Identity" is Magicka Warden.

However, with that being said I, for one, am not looking forward to MORE utility being given to DK and Warden. The Stamina DK META of high DPS + High survivability + High mobility coupled with Heavy Armor healing passives and broken Heavy Armor DPS sets on top of DK's Major Mending (You're welcome - says the Templar) is not something I would like to return to (Update 22).

Sorcerers (Stamina) specifically and Templars (Stamina) are in dire need to identity.
Sorcerers are in need of:
Better sustain and spammable for Stamina variants; more stamina morph options of skills and better passive synergies with Stamina gameplay.
Templars are in need of:
Revert to revert of Sweeps/Jabs targeting!!!!!! Or at very least a rework of the skill (As the Templar feedback threads are littered with requests for this....Remove the AOE component, make skill single target channel with AOE splash damage within 3m range - Move Snare to first hit
Sustain!!!!!!
Proactive defense and better healing to match the Magicka counterpart.
MOBILITY!!!!!!!! Stamina-based Templars should not be so slow....

Magicka Nightblades are in dire need of Utility, as the class in general has been stripped of most utility and spread across unused skills that do not fit the playstyle.


With certain bugs mentioned above that need to be addressed...what about the Templar Lag issue?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6318384#Comment_6318384

For all that are going to dump on Templars...play the class first, please? Yes they are strong because of ZOS's direction on ST DoTs and the broken Eclipse (by the way, I tried playing with Living Dark and it's really not thaaat OP....get over yourself.)

Want more build diversity?! Make Weapons scale on highest stat?! Can't LA or HA sustain Magicka on a DW....make it scale on highest stat....Add a new weapon skill line for Magicka Melee users. Want a new ranged option for Stamina? A Spear skill line can provide both melee and range options.

Add some flavor to the game by introducing new things the player base has been suggesting instead of the constant see-saw nerf hammer or look at pre-patches where classes actually HAD some flavor because of their identity...
Nightblades were shadowy killers.
Templars were Magicka Knights or great utility Healers
DK's were great utility Tanks (an option to look at is making them more Dragon-like - how's that for identity?)
Sorcerer's were exactly that! Conjurers of magical dominance.
Wardens, IMO, were like a bad attempt at building Diablo 2's Druid. However, it lacked at that even. They were given bits of Templar Identity mixed with parts of Sorcerers and a summoner identity without enough summons.

ThePedge

Give Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve Major Brutality/Sorcery, remove it from Power Extraction/Sap Essence.

Give Nightblade fear Minor Maim back to make it different to Fighters Guild fear.

Give Incap stun back instead of a fake silence.

Remove Ultimate Cast Times

And just because it can't be said enough, remove faction lock.

ESO_Nightingale

ThePedge wrote: »

Give Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve Major Brutality/Sorcery, remove it from Power Extraction/Sap Essence.

Give Nightblade fear Minor Maim back to make it different to Fighters Guild fear.

Give Incap stun back instead of a fake silence.

Remove Ultimate Cast Times

And just because it can't be said enough, remove faction lock.

To be perfectly honest, i love these ideas.

Eweroun

This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas.

Why do I have the fear that PVE will be the victim again?

Jabbs_Giggity

ThePedge wrote: »

Give Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve Major Brutality/Sorcery, remove it from Power Extraction/Sap Essence.

Give Nightblade fear Minor Maim back to make it different to Fighters Guild fear.

Give Incap stun back instead of a fake silence.

Remove Ultimate Cast Times

And just because it can't be said enough, remove faction lock.

Personally, I would rather see Siphoning Strikes get Major Brutality/Sorcery over Relentless. Strikes doesn't have enough utility compared to Relentless. You can easily get better sustain from Debilitate with magicka steal that the almost non existent magicka Return from strikes, until the end of the effect.

Agree.

Agree.

Disagree - Allow faction lock to convert nonfaction characters temporarily to chosen faction while in that faction locked campaign.

ThePedge

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Give Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve Major Brutality/Sorcery, remove it from Power Extraction/Sap Essence.

Give Nightblade fear Minor Maim back to make it different to Fighters Guild fear.

Give Incap stun back instead of a fake silence.

Remove Ultimate Cast Times

And just because it can't be said enough, remove faction lock.

Personally, I would rather see Siphoning Strikes get Major Brutality/Sorcery over Relentless. Strikes doesn't have enough utility compared to Relentless. You can easily get better sustain from Debilitate with magicka steal that the almost non existent magicka Return from strikes, until the end of the effect.

Agree.

Agree.

Disagree - Allow faction lock to convert nonfaction characters temporarily to chosen faction while in that faction locked campaign.

Interesting idea, would make Relentless Less stacked too, as it looks like it's mitigation is here to stay.

Faction Lock, until that happens and I agree with the idea of any character playing under the locked alliances banner - voiced this many times on the PvP forums. But until then it needs to be removed imo

Skorro

Tommy_The_Gun

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening!

NO, you are not LOL....

Your combat team ignored the WHOLE Werewolf feedback in update 23. How that counts as "we are listening!" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

ThePedge

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening!

NO, you are not LOL....

Your combat team ignored the WHOLE Werewolf feedback in update 23. How that counts as "we are listening!" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Werewolf isn't an issue.