Update 24 Combat Preview

ESO_Nightingale

xWarbrain wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Its nice that Zenimax is posting this however, I would rather see Brian in game on the PTS talking and testing with players then making publicity posts for the new patch.

For 5 years I have heard/read the "we are considering your feedback" comments and now I am conditioned by Zenimax to not belleive anything posted by them on the forums unless I see it in game.

I guess what I'm saying is lets wait and see before us or Zenimax jumps to any conclusions about what this new patch will be like. History has taught me to be the discerning sceptic.

ZOS has "heard" Magicka Warden feedback... Or not. It's taken a year and a half to get to this point where they're finally addressing wardens. It's great to see a new effect on Dive since it needed one. However we have reported time and time again that Screaming Cliff Racer's current morph(increases in damage based on range) doesn't work well with Deep Fissure(our class defining and anchor skill that we play and build around) as most of us only really feel comfortable using shalks from around 10 or less meters away. it doesn't look like they've heard that feedback, or else we'd have a different proc condition for the new off balance. I'm starting to feel like our pain points don't mean jack *** to them.

Again, I disagree with you on the use of SCR. It does its normal damage when I'm within range for Deep Fissure. Then, it does more and more damage as I back away while the enemy player thinks I'm backing up to avoid them. Great against melee range players and players that kite.

I don't need them to add something to the skill, I've already learned to use it properly. Your pain points are not my pain points.

Sure you don't have to agree, but these pain points have been accepted in larger overall discussions between several Warden players. Not just me. While it's not the worst thing in the world when it comes to balance, it is a pain point for us nonetheless.

_Ahala_

Cliff racer needs a projectile speed adjustment as it’s far too difficult to finish off a skilled player with the ability when any other spammable such as force pulse or elemental weapon would actually be fast enough to finish the job before they heal up

xWarbrain

I won't argue that its slower than Force Pulse, but I see it as dealing more damage at the expense of being slower. Ele Weapon has its "slow time" before the skill fires, but its damage is probably more comparable IMO to SCR. Slightly less damage but the projectile is faster.

There's a trade off between using either of those skills over SCR. I like SCR, even though its more easily dodgeable, due to the higher damage output & Animal Companions passive that increases the rest of my bar.

Force Pulse - Least Damage, most likely to land
Ele Weapon - In between both in terms of damage and speed / likeliness to land
SCR - Most Damage, easiest to dodge

Meaning if SCR travelled faster, it would be hitting harder and just as likely to land. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't hate if it landed more often, but I don't think it needs to be adjusted. The ole' "kiss curse" of choosing SCR over the others

Marcus_Cassius

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

What's the stink with Werewolves lately? I don't play one and just don't get it....so many posts and threads about "ZOS refuses to address Werewolves", yet I haven't seen any supporting information regarding what should be addressed; it's always, "Buff Werewolves" or "No love for Werewolves".

I would rather see a full skill line added for Vampires than hear any more talk about Werewolves, which still do excess amounts of bleed damage and oh my 'Lanta that Howl! So unbelievable annoying and over-spammed...

Scalebreaker patched nerfed werewolf severely in pvp.

Reducing bleed damage, light attack damage, howl damage, increasing magicka costs of the heal and reducing its effectiveness at all at the same time.

Also making Packleader nerf useless for pve and pvp.

Are they going to look at it or are we wasting time ? I dont know those devs, are they similar to the new ones in Wow, giant egos and considering the game to be their playground ?
Clearly the changes on WW were catastrophic , they aren't competitive for pve and game, almost no one using that in pvp either and when they do they are a joke and the easiest target now .

Are those people able to admit a mistake and change things back or they have god complex and its something that will be put back years later discreetly in a small patch note when everyone forgot about it ?

_Ahala_

The curse of cliff racer is too much though... Against targets that know what they are doing you will almost never land the ability when it is most critical, such as when the target is low health, while non class alternatives such as force pulse and elemental weapon will actually hit in these circumstances. Due to this reason, cliff racer has been a dead skill amongst the PC NA small scale and dueling community for quite some time. This confounds me as swallow soul, whip, and sweep are not considered dead skills the same way cliff racer was. You would actually be hard pressed to find mains of those classes using a non class spammable for anything other than a niche build and that’s how it honestly should be for warden too. That is the aim of zos efforts in update 24.

But giving the spammable a conditional status effect is not going to be enough I fear to put it on par with the non class spammables competitively. Two major problems would remain. The too slow yet too fast projectile speed makes it’s practically useless against skilled opponents and the conditional range effect as always will be unaccessible against many setups as magden still doesn’t have good tools to help it kite opponents (eg. ranged roots & snares, snare and root immunity, and/or a mobility skill that does more than give 6 measly seconds of major expedition but literally nothing else useful to the end of making the skill merit the gcd cost of actually casting it mid combat)

katorga

So DK, Warden and Sorcerer are going to get as much "identity" as Necromancer?


Shalks AOE will occur 3.5 seconds where you used to be.

Haunting Curse, will cast after 3.5 seconds, have up to 8 seconds of travel time to target, and exploding after 3.5 seconds.

Burning Embers will require a player corpse to cast and tether from the corpse to the DK damaging all in its path. But will have zero resource cost!

Green Dragon Blood, Dark Deal, and Soothing spores will apply minor defile to the caster and any targets healed.

xWarbrain

_Ahala_ wrote: »

The curse of cliff racer is too much though... Against targets that know what they are doing you will almost never land the ability when it is most critical, such as when the target is low health, while non class alternatives such as force pulse and elemental weapon will actually hit in these circumstances. Due to this reason, cliff racer has been a dead skill amongst the PC NA small scale and dueling community for quite some time. This confounds me as swallow soul, whip, and sweep are not considered dead skills the same way cliff racer was. You would actually be hard pressed to find mains of those classes using a non class spammable for anything other than a niche build and that’s how it honestly should be for warden too. That is the aim of zos efforts in update 24.

But giving the spammable a conditional status effect is not going to be enough I fear to put it on par with the non class spammables competitively. Two major problems would remain. The too slow yet too fast projectile speed makes it’s practically useless against skilled opponents and the conditional range effect as always will be unaccessible against many setups as magden still doesn’t have good tools to help it kite opponents (eg. ranged roots & snares, snare and root immunity, and/or a mobility skill that does more than give 6 measly seconds of major expedition but literally nothing else useful to the end of making the skill merit the gcd cost of actually casting it mid combat)

I see your point, and I don't disagree with your comparison to other classes. I'm just worried that they're saying "hey look, you'll be able to set enemies off balance now" but later on it'll end up as "you set them off balance....but Deep Fissure is now going to proc Minor Breach instead of Major and Northern Storm now grants 6% Max Magicka instead of 8% because... Zos. Oh btw, we didn't mention this during PTS but Netch no longer gives Major Sorcery."

So I stand by my original thought after reading the OP - Please leave Warden alone!

_Ahala_

xWarbrain wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

The curse of cliff racer is too much though... Against targets that know what they are doing you will almost never land the ability when it is most critical, such as when the target is low health, while non class alternatives such as force pulse and elemental weapon will actually hit in these circumstances. Due to this reason, cliff racer has been a dead skill amongst the PC NA small scale and dueling community for quite some time. This confounds me as swallow soul, whip, and sweep are not considered dead skills the same way cliff racer was. You would actually be hard pressed to find mains of those classes using a non class spammable for anything other than a niche build and that’s how it honestly should be for warden too. That is the aim of zos efforts in update 24.

But giving the spammable a conditional status effect is not going to be enough I fear to put it on par with the non class spammables competitively. Two major problems would remain. The too slow yet too fast projectile speed makes it’s practically useless against skilled opponents and the conditional range effect as always will be unaccessible against many setups as magden still doesn’t have good tools to help it kite opponents (eg. ranged roots & snares, snare and root immunity, and/or a mobility skill that does more than give 6 measly seconds of major expedition but literally nothing else useful to the end of making the skill merit the gcd cost of actually casting it mid combat)

I see your point, and I don't disagree with your comparison to other classes. I'm just worried that they're saying "hey look, you'll be able to set enemies off balance now" but later on it'll end up as "you set them off balance....but Deep Fissure is now going to proc Minor Breach instead of Major and Northern Storm now grants 6% Max Magicka instead of 8% because... Zos. Oh btw, we didn't mention this during PTS but Netch no longer gives Major Sorcery."

So I stand by my original thought after reading the OP - Please leave Warden alone!

Put that way your viewpoint is understandable ... Zos doesn’t exactly have the best track record when it comes to balance passes. Yes, last time they tried to “buff” a warden skill they made cliff racer no longer sync with fissure.

FrancisCrawford

_Ahala_ wrote: »

The curse of cliff racer is too much though... Against targets that know what they are doing you will almost never land the ability when it is most critical, such as when the target is low health, while non class alternatives such as force pulse and elemental weapon will actually hit in these circumstances. Due to this reason, cliff racer has been a dead skill amongst the PC NA small scale and dueling community for quite some time. This confounds me as swallow soul, whip, and sweep are not considered dead skills the same way cliff racer was. You would actually be hard pressed to find mains of those classes using a non class spammable for anything other than a niche build and that’s how it honestly should be for warden too. That is the aim of zos efforts in update 24.

But giving the spammable a conditional status effect is not going to be enough I fear to put it on par with the non class spammables competitively. Two major problems would remain. The too slow yet too fast projectile speed makes it’s practically useless against skilled opponents and the conditional range effect as always will be unaccessible against many setups as magden still doesn’t have good tools to help it kite opponents (eg. ranged roots & snares, snare and root immunity, and/or a mobility skill that does more than give 6 measly seconds of major expedition but literally nothing else useful to the end of making the skill merit the gcd cost of actually casting it mid combat)

I guess warden PvPers should hope they get enough else to make up for having their class spammable be oriented to PvE.

Please note that sorcerers do not have a class spammable AT ALL, and many templars claim that theirs has long been too buggy to use.

Jodynn

Just don't break a class by fixing for one build but dismantling another.

eso_lytw8

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

The combat changes in Update 24 are more narrow in focus than those we made with the ability audit in Update 22 and 23. Out of that audit came a few things laying under rocks for a while that came to surface, which we are addressing in Update 24 (mainly Damage over Time abilities). We are also looking to address feedback regarding Wardens, Sorcerers, and Dragonknights specifically in the realm of identity.

Glad to see you are addressing identity. When doing so I encourage you to think about how the class actions would be written into a fantasy novel, think about how you would name the build, and what feeling it evokes. For example go look at alcasts builds and how he names them based on the theme they evoke. Now of course the latest build have almost nothing unique so you might want to look into archives, but point being go look at how he does it.

If this is hard to do I suggest seeking out someone to help. I am beginning to realize this skill set is not universal. Some people are just PVP'ers, some are role players, some are DPS chasers. Find someone that can explain how uniqueness and fantasy feel happen. What makes this a thing. How does a class become interesting, cool, where does its power come from, etc. Also make sure to not have all classes have all abilities, make them unique where they all bring cool and different things to the table.

What not to do...whoever made the changes to nightblade class does not understand this, however those changes happened over the last two patches should not be allowed to provide input into class uniqueness going forward. I'm sorry I am sure the intentions were good, but the result was a wrecked class that is no longer fun to play. This effort was a complete failure for PVE enjoyment.

Whatever process that determined that grim focus should not longer provide damage buffs and now do defensive buffs with light attacks should not be used to created uniqueness going forward. And if you argue this made this class strong then you just don't get it. Go find someone who does get it. Removing fracture from surprise attack is another example. If you argue this was needed for PVP then stop doing things for PVP, start focusing on creating cool and fun classes, if you want people to return. I am not trying to be negative, I am trying to provide as direct feedback as possible to get this amazing game back to where it once was.

I am hopeful the future brings back a set of classes that are once again special, unique and fun to play. Do this and people will return.

BaiterOfZergs

“We’re adding a secondary effect of putting enemies off balance when hitting enemies further than 12 meters away. It’s these types of adjustments we’re looking to add to classes as a whole to bring more identity and functionality without heavy reliance on skill lines outside of their class kit.”

Yeah, with this comment I’m not sure if I’m going to like where this is going. Sounds like skills might become overloaded.

MehrunesFlagon

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

Can someone remind me whats the current problem with damage over time abilities? pvp?
i don't quite understand the upcoming stepback.

It's based on some idiot's delusion.In other words it doesn't exist.

MehrunesFlagon

Heatnix90 wrote: »

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

Can someone remind me whats the current problem with damage over time abilities? pvp?
i don't quite understand the upcoming stepback

I mean in pvp i die more often because of Dizzying Swing, Onslaught and Crystal frags rather than any dot.
While for pve... havent heard any dungeon boss complaining yet.

DOT meta is severely overtuned right now because cleansing options are incredibly limited (inb4 forum warriors come in saying "JUST USE PURGE/WYRD TREE BRO"). The Purge skill in the Alliance War skilltree is far too cost intensive for the amount of negative effects it removes. Only magplar and magcro have viable cleanse options in their toolkits, and stamina players are pretty much SOL. This is a problem because of the "fire-and-forget" nature of DOTS in their current state, including the fact that the 2 most used skills right now (Soul Trap and Entropy) are undodgeable and have very low cost. All of this pretty much leads to simplistic, boring gameplay that severely favors stacking numbers in PvP because said numbers can just load up on DOTs and win out over skilled groups.

thatlaurachick wrote: »

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

Can someone remind me whats the current problem with damage over time abilities? pvp?
i don't quite understand the upcoming stepback

I mean in pvp i die more often because of Dizzying Swing, Onslaught and Crystal frags rather than any dot.
While for pve... havent heard any dungeon boss complaining yet.

You must be new here. PvE is only ever nerfed because of PvP. It's been going on for 5 years.

Right because the AoE DoT nerfs we 100% because of PvP. And the shield nerfs. And the sustain nerfs. And the healing nerfs. And the complete destruction of the Magicka Nightblade spec. /sarcasm

Stop making baseless accusations that you have no evidence for. It makes you look dumb.

It's blatantly obvious.Plus there were several forum topics complaining from various scrubs.So really it's not accusations it's fact.

MehrunesFlagon

Rikumaru wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Despite the amount of tears on the forums, DOTs don't need to be nerfed at all. Seriously, they are fine as is.

But what's even more crazy is that you want to nerf DOTs and leave healing unchanged. Have you been to a BG lately? Healing is through the roof. You need to tone down pure healing specs, they are WAY stronger than DD counterparts. For real, healers are basically 12-man raid bosses. How about changing Critical Resistance to also reduce the value of healing crits from external sources? Perhaps this would even allow other traits besides Impenetrable to be viable in PvP.

DOTs are in no way fine. They are OP atm, you just get 3+ people applying it on you in Cyrodill and you just melt. It's basically sloads 2.0. It's mindless way to deal damage which you can apply from max range and in soul traps case is undodgeable and instant.

Who cares?Don't nerf me cause of that.

MehrunesFlagon

Juhasow wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

With the Necromancer, we achieved a very clear identity throughout their class kit. You all have expressed strong desires for other classes to get updates to match that identity and we are listening!

Are You really listening ? Because I dont see where in the phrase "Collosus ulti is too strong" You've heared "strong desires for other classes to get updates".

Shantu wrote: »

I hate PVP...if for nothing more than the stupid, unnecessary changes it brings to PVE. This game would be SO much better without it. But Mr. Wheeler's title tells us all we need to know. This is really getting old.

His title doesn't mean ***.

MehrunesFlagon

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I disagree with your suggestion entirely. Warden has enough healing through the entire green balance line, Arctic Blast for whatever god awful reason, and animal companions skills when the animal "despawns". Healing is not an issue. The off balance is actually useful. BUT the way in which to achieve it is unsatisfactory because we already report that SCR's damage bonus at range is unreliable because of Scorch. Both of these should be adressed and the range requirement for the new off balance reversed to 12 meters or less away from a target.

Thanks for your suggestion, however, as you may or may not know bosses have off balance immunity for 15 seconds after the duration ends, so again, as i said, putting off balance on a spammable is stupid.

This is a PvP focused Change.

No more pvp focused changes.

MehrunesFlagon

VaranisArano wrote: »

Can we maybe not derail this thread with preemptive PVE vs PVP whining?

Not ready to let them win.

VaxtinTheWolf

Shinshadow wrote: »

This is VERY much an interest of mine as well. It's pretty bad that so many ultimates are magic damage based, in spite of scaling with the highest resource. Stamblades for example, only really have incap, and that drives me nuts, because that's my favorite class to play on

It'd be neat if they applied the Soul Trap scaling to some ultimates. Veil of Blades for example, could do Physical or Magic damage depending on the highest stats/value of your character. Then Bolstering Darkness would remain as the defensive/tank morph option.

irstarkey57

Many of us have clearly brought to light how many of these changes will break the game. No one listens. What worries me more is that you all literally have a team of people and no one is able to foresee that the current meta would be a joke? Especially indirectly making Templar’s OP AF. I just don’t get it. Meh I dunno....doesn’t bode well. Just gotta get used to the “missing the mark” quote after each patch now....

Mojomonkeyman

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Thanks for the heads up. You guys deserve praise for the way you handled the necromancer cc issue by not just adding another generic instant cc (as suggested by many forum users including me) but instead going for an unique and interesting mechanic with the new totem. Excellent addition, indeed strengthening class identity. Well done.

However, necromancer is still heavily suffering from two major pain points in pvp:

1) The most important one is that pet skills are still not reliable. All the go-to skills have issues. Skeletal mage and mender/guardian regularly won't fire on cd due to movement of caster/pet or they will focus the wrong target in critical situations.

Using blastbones from range is basically a guaranteed waste of ressources and even in close combat chance is very high that it will never hit its target. The delay, the AI and most importantly that it can be killed, disabled, immobilized and snared very often lead to a frustrating user experience. Impact is totally out of control of the caster even when tab targeting relentlessly. The list of negatives attached to the skill is just too long and it is not competitive with its counterparts from other classes (fissure or curse i.e.).

I can't think of any other class that is so limited in regards of reliablity. Not being able to trust in your key skills is just annoying, sometimes even infuriating.

That pain point is at the moment covered up by the fact that necromancers can compensate with easy to apply and potent non-class dots. Necromancers will feel the loss of reliable dmg by nerfing dots in general much more than any other class. Please consider lifting up class skill reliability in return when adjusting those dots.

2) A good portion of class sustain is tied to tethers. Unfortunately, it is common consensus amongst necromancers by now that tethers as implemented dont work very well in pvp. I appeal to you and the other creators to not let misguided pride hold you back from changing what needs to be changed. Your totem solution has shown that you are not lacking creativity to rethink tether mechanics, to make them as attractive in pvp as they can be in pve. The sustain tied to those skills is essential for giving the class a chance at performing at the highest level (of pvp).

There is another issue (more of an inconvenience) in need of attention, which is the interaction of BG medalscoring and pets. We (necromancers) spend ressources for our pets, therefore their damage and healing done should be accounted for and translate into medals achieved. It would be amazing if you guys could look into that.

GreatGildersleeve

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas.

Are there still people doing trials? I’ve seen a bunch of teams disintegrate since U23... end game pve seems to have thrown in the towel from what I’ve seen.

cmvet

And not one mention about werewolves being non-existent after being nerfed into oblivion. A little re-balancing would be great.

Aurie

And please don't forget to add Major Sorcery to Surge/Critical Surge

Deathlord92

Little disappointed please I’m begging you to buff stamblade those nerfs we took hit our class hard. Then there’s cast time I can hardly ever land my incap now they just break free of fear right into a dodge roll buff stamblade please 🙏

six2fall

can we please just stop balancing classes based on pvp.

Calboy

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Little disappointed please I’m begging you to buff stamblade those nerfs we took hit our class hard. Then there’s cast time I can hardly ever land my incap now they just break free of fear right into a dodge roll buff stamblade please 🙏

Eso is much more enjoyable with less stamblades

Major_Lag

zyk wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Can you please clarify what you wrote about indefinite sprinting after mounting?

Bad news. It's (again) broken on the PTS. Click the link to go to the relevant thread.

hayes

I'm happy to hear that Stamina Dragonknight is getting some more attention and direction towards class identity.
I'm excited to see and test changes once they hit the PTS.

These updates posts are appreciated

Vapirko

Great Warden buffs and AoE ball groups coming back lol. Well just as long as they fix the *** FPS drops on Templar I’ll just power trough.