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The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs
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Neloth✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.
The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.
Good players don't let you delete them from a mile away. There is no such thing as ranged combat in ESO unless you are hiding in the middle of a Zerg or you are a cowardly stealthed ganker with a bow.
Do you actually believe this? I’m trying to figure out if you always play solo, getting heated so it’s hyperbole, or just extremely biased.
I play solo roughly 80% of the time, and I am in the Imperial City 99%. It is not possible to "Streak off into the sunset" in the IC. Hell, it's barely possible to Streak more than twice in a straight line in the City! There are mobs and walls everywhere.
Sometimes I can't understand (edit) if you are really serious or trolling.
Streaking in IC is much easier compared to streaking in open world Cyro or BGs.
When you streak through mobs, you usually CC them (at least the small ones), while your opponent has to gap close to you instead of your bird, engine guardian, and all those other NPC mobs which you leave behind CCed. With current state of targeting in ESO it is really complicated, and if you ever tried playing non-sorc in IC, you would have known that.
And if you streak INTO THE WALL, idk, lol. Have you tried turning your camera around and streaking in between the walls instead?
When you streak -> dodge around the corner -> streak a few more times, no-one will ever gap close to you because of LoS of that corner. Especially when there were some NPCs on your way. Walls actually help, sometimes.
You don't get it. They USE the mobs to help them gap close. If they can't target you because you streaked just out of range, they'll just use the nearest mob instead, like Tarzan swinging from vine to vine. This is why they can still catch up to a Sorc even if the Sorc is way out ahead.
If you streak through a new portion of mobs every few seconds to provide your enemy easy targets for gap closing, I agree, but that's clearly l2p issue on your side (I hate to say that).
After you streaked through the first 1-2 portions of mobs to prevent gap closing to you DIRECTLY, you can easily avoid mobs if you need.
And inb4 you say "but mobs in IC are everywhere" - no, there is plenty of space without mobs where you can create distance. For example, temple circle has a lot of space without mobs; all the second floors of buildings in temple have no mobs. First floras of the building have only a few mobs, which can be easily avoided. You can side streak 50% of corridors in any district without pulling a single mob. Same can be discussed for all other districts, maybe except memorial, where are tons of skeletons. But you can still streak in between them when needed.
Yes, there are a few unavoidable mobs in several important hubs, but you can use them to prevent gap closing to you, and create distance after. It's all about practice and thinking next few steps in advance.
2 -
Neloth✭✭✭✭-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
Imaging if @Emma_Overload and @Daus is actually the same master-troll person with 2 accounts, each patch agitating for magsorc/stamblade buffs, just to make both communities blow up their asses in the threads like this7 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Opened the thread and went through checklist:
-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
That made me spit my whiskey, well done 😂3 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
Imaging if @Emma_Overload and @Daus is actually the same master-troll person with 2 accounts, each patch agitating for magsorc/stamblade buffs, just to make both communities blow up their asses in the threads like this
Lol you do know that I ask for Nightblade nerfs as well right?1 -
Neloth✭✭✭✭-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
Imaging if @Emma_Overload and @Daus is actually the same master-troll person with 2 accounts, each patch agitating for magsorc/stamblade buffs, just to make both communities blow up their asses in the threads like this
Lol you do know that I ask for Nightblade nerfs as well right?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/477350/magnb-what-is-our-advantage-to-leverage#latest
here? You definitely should, magblade asses are still intact, need to fix that asap
personally I think their class burst heal (healing ward) is overperforming
just giving you some ideas
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Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
Imaging if @Emma_Overload and @Daus is actually the same master-troll person with 2 accounts, each patch agitating for magsorc/stamblade buffs, just to make both communities blow up their asses in the threads like this
Lol you do know that I ask for Nightblade nerfs as well right?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/477350/magnb-what-is-our-advantage-to-leverage#latest
here? You definitely should, magblade asses are still intact, need to fix that asap
personally I think their class burst heal (healing ward) is overperforming
just giving you some ideas
Nah I think invisibility is too strong. That's my gripe with the class.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Opened the thread and went through checklist:
-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
-Sorcs playing victim --> check
-"Nerf sorc" memes being posted in a pathetic attempt to counter valid arguments --> check
-Fury/7th/bs SnB builds being brought up to somehow prove sorcs aren't that OP --> check
-The never ending "Sorc can't burst a good player" nonsense --> check
-Sorcs complaining they are not OP because they cannot do X as well as class X (while performing very good in most other aspects of combat) --> check
Yea... looks like the usual sorc thread to me
- completely unnecessary and content-lacking post by Koensol --> check
Looks like we're complete now, whooo...
\(-.-)/6 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm sorry, but this thread and many others like it are a massive joke. Far too many people who only seem to play magsorc, unable to look at balance from the POV of other classes. There have been more than enough valid arguments posted by other users, but it is always the same nonsense being posted in return.Opened the thread and went through checklist:
-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
-Sorcs playing victim --> check
-"Nerf sorc" memes being posted in a pathetic attempt to counter valid arguments --> check
-Fury/7th/bs SnB builds being brought up to somehow prove sorcs aren't that OP --> check
-The never ending "Sorc can't burst a good player" nonsense --> check
-Sorcs complaining they are not OP because they cannot do X as well as class X (while performing very good in most other aspects of combat) --> check
Yea... looks like the usual sorc thread to me
- completely unnecessary and content-lacking post by Koensol --> check
Looks like we're complete now, whooo...
\(-.-)/
Every decent player on PC EU that I have spoken with and doesn't only play magsorc agrees the class is top tier right now, and a little too strong in certain aspects. Always interesting to see certain forum posters always find a way to see things differently. And frankly, some of them are flatout delusional in believing Sorc still has many problems when compared to other classes.6 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.
The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.
Good players don't let you delete them from a mile away. There is no such thing as ranged combat in ESO unless you are hiding in the middle of a Zerg or you are a cowardly stealthed ganker with a bow.
Do you actually believe this? I’m trying to figure out if you always play solo, getting heated so it’s hyperbole, or just extremely biased.
My experience has been that all combat is close quarters combat, all other things being equal. The only chances I get to fight at a comfortable range are those rare occasions that I am in a group and outnumber the enemy. My typical fights are 1v1 versus DKs that lock you down or NBs that buzz around you like angry wasps.
Ah okay, that makes sense. 1v1 it’s a lot harder to kite, need snares and expedition to allow you to kite around the pet, but for the most part you’ll be in melee range.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm sorry, but this thread and many others like it are a massive joke. Far too many people who only seem to play magsorc, unable to look at balance from the POV of other classes. There have been more than enough valid arguments posted by other users, but it is always the same nonsense being posted in return.Opened the thread and went through checklist:
-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
-Sorcs playing victim --> check
-"Nerf sorc" memes being posted in a pathetic attempt to counter valid arguments --> check
-Fury/7th/bs SnB builds being brought up to somehow prove sorcs aren't that OP --> check
-The never ending "Sorc can't burst a good player" nonsense --> check
-Sorcs complaining they are not OP because they cannot do X as well as class X (while performing very good in most other aspects of combat) --> check
Yea... looks like the usual sorc thread to me
- completely unnecessary and content-lacking post by Koensol --> check
Looks like we're complete now, whooo...
\(-.-)/
Every decent player on PC EU that I have spoken with and doesn't only play magsorc agrees the class is top tier right now, and a little too strong in certain aspects. Always interesting to see certain forum posters always find a way to see things differently. And frankly, some of them are flatout delusional in believing Sorc still has many problems when compared to other classes.
Well usually those valid arguments are getting lost in a sea of invalid, dumb and biased arguments.1 -
GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.
The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.
Good players don't let you delete them from a mile away. There is no such thing as ranged combat in ESO unless you are hiding in the middle of a Zerg or you are a cowardly stealthed ganker with a bow.
Do you actually believe this? I’m trying to figure out if you always play solo, getting heated so it’s hyperbole, or just extremely biased.
My experience has been that all combat is close quarters combat, all other things being equal. The only chances I get to fight at a comfortable range are those rare occasions that I am in a group and outnumber the enemy. My typical fights are 1v1 versus DKs that lock you down or NBs that buzz around you like angry wasps.
Ah okay, that makes sense. 1v1 it’s a lot harder to kite, need snares and expedition to allow you to kite around the pet, but for the most part you’ll be in melee range.
Sorc in 1v1 are just stupid strong. Go on over to wayrest on pcna. You will find that overload weaving sorcs are the new fotm duelers. On any given day 3/4 the duelers are Sorc. Stupid amounts of damage from overload weave... and that's not even considered the "cheesy" duel buildEdited by GhostofDatthaw on June 21, 2019 11:55AM3 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm sorry, but this thread and many others like it are a massive joke. Far too many people who only seem to play magsorc, unable to look at balance from the POV of other classes. There have been more than enough valid arguments posted by other users, but it is always the same nonsense being posted in return.Opened the thread and went through checklist:
-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
-Sorcs playing victim --> check
-"Nerf sorc" memes being posted in a pathetic attempt to counter valid arguments --> check
-Fury/7th/bs SnB builds being brought up to somehow prove sorcs aren't that OP --> check
-The never ending "Sorc can't burst a good player" nonsense --> check
-Sorcs complaining they are not OP because they cannot do X as well as class X (while performing very good in most other aspects of combat) --> check
Yea... looks like the usual sorc thread to me
- completely unnecessary and content-lacking post by Koensol --> check
Looks like we're complete now, whooo...
\(-.-)/
Every decent player on PC EU that I have spoken with and doesn't only play magsorc agrees the class is top tier right now, and a little too strong in certain aspects. Always interesting to see certain forum posters always find a way to see things differently. And frankly, some of them are flatout delusional in believing Sorc still has many problems when compared to other classes.
No, you're not sorry. Stop lying. Have you ever noticed that people starting with phrases like that usually feel the complete opposite?
Anyways, as I said, your post lacks content. Instead of shaming sorcs and blubbering how they can shoot nukes from their butts (without eating chili), how about you suggest solutions? You get extra points if those are not just blind nerfs but rather keep the class intact, especially regarding non-pet sorcs. THAT would be a useful post. Because you're not better than sorcs by pointing fingers all the time and stomping your feet. Be constructive!1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm sorry, but this thread and many others like it are a massive joke. Far too many people who only seem to play magsorc, unable to look at balance from the POV of other classes. There have been more than enough valid arguments posted by other users, but it is always the same nonsense being posted in return.Opened the thread and went through checklist:
-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
-Sorcs playing victim --> check
-"Nerf sorc" memes being posted in a pathetic attempt to counter valid arguments --> check
-Fury/7th/bs SnB builds being brought up to somehow prove sorcs aren't that OP --> check
-The never ending "Sorc can't burst a good player" nonsense --> check
-Sorcs complaining they are not OP because they cannot do X as well as class X (while performing very good in most other aspects of combat) --> check
Yea... looks like the usual sorc thread to me
- completely unnecessary and content-lacking post by Koensol --> check
Looks like we're complete now, whooo...
\(-.-)/
Every decent player on PC EU that I have spoken with and doesn't only play magsorc agrees the class is top tier right now, and a little too strong in certain aspects. Always interesting to see certain forum posters always find a way to see things differently. And frankly, some of them are flatout delusional in believing Sorc still has many problems when compared to other classes.
No, you're not sorry. Stop lying. Have you ever noticed that people starting with phrases like that usually feel the complete opposite?
Anyways, as I said, your post lacks content. Instead of shaming sorcs and blubbering how they can shoot nukes from their butts (without eating chili), how about you suggest solutions? You get extra points if those are not just blind nerfs but rather keep the class intact, especially regarding non-pet sorcs. THAT would be a useful post. Because you're not better than sorcs by pointing fingers all the time and stomping your feet. Be constructive!
That would probably come best from sorcs as a kind of self regulation. Instead now the more likely scenario is the nerf hammer will come down hard.
From a dev perspective, I’d think because sorcs can’t provide of non-biased feedback all sorcs have proven is their feedback is garbage and can’t be trusted. Anything most sorcs would say I’d take as requests to be less OP, but OP nonetheless.
Edited by Iskiab on June 21, 2019 12:43PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
Lattengrabscher✭✭✭Proud Member of Triggered Tryhards
DC - Totally not Latte
DC - Der Böse Hase
EP - ViperSeducer Metaslave
EP - Blaubeere
DC - Der kleine Hase
AD - Salt Assault
Youtube channel : https://youtube.com/channel/UCSZHzf3v1V9m6-xpn_7a_bw0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm sorry, but this thread and many others like it are a massive joke. Far too many people who only seem to play magsorc, unable to look at balance from the POV of other classes. There have been more than enough valid arguments posted by other users, but it is always the same nonsense being posted in return.Opened the thread and went through checklist:
-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
-Sorcs playing victim --> check
-"Nerf sorc" memes being posted in a pathetic attempt to counter valid arguments --> check
-Fury/7th/bs SnB builds being brought up to somehow prove sorcs aren't that OP --> check
-The never ending "Sorc can't burst a good player" nonsense --> check
-Sorcs complaining they are not OP because they cannot do X as well as class X (while performing very good in most other aspects of combat) --> check
Yea... looks like the usual sorc thread to me
- completely unnecessary and content-lacking post by Koensol --> check
Looks like we're complete now, whooo...
\(-.-)/
Every decent player on PC EU that I have spoken with and doesn't only play magsorc agrees the class is top tier right now, and a little too strong in certain aspects. Always interesting to see certain forum posters always find a way to see things differently. And frankly, some of them are flatout delusional in believing Sorc still has many problems when compared to other classes.
No, you're not sorry. Stop lying. Have you ever noticed that people starting with phrases like that usually feel the complete opposite?
Anyways, as I said, your post lacks content. Instead of shaming sorcs and blubbering how they can shoot nukes from their butts (without eating chili), how about you suggest solutions? You get extra points if those are not just blind nerfs but rather keep the class intact, especially regarding non-pet sorcs. THAT would be a useful post. Because you're not better than sorcs by pointing fingers all the time and stomping your feet. Be constructive!
That would probably come best from sorcs as a kind of self regulation. Instead now the more likely scenario is the nerf hammer will come down hard.
From a dev perspective, I’d think because sorcs can’t provide of non-biased feedback all sorcs have proven is their feedback is garbage and can’t be trusted. Anything most sorcs would say I’d take as requests to be less OP, but OP nonetheless.
Uff. Well, I wouldn't say that. We've given enough feedback, and it fell on deaf ears. Don't blame us for taking pets now and not bothering with feedback!
A small list of mine:
- Healing Ward burst heal, with a HoT instead of the huge heal at the end. So we don't need the Matriarch.
- Cage undodgable/unblockable stun, but no damage. Minor Breech instead. Reduced range, about ten meters. So we finally can drop the Master staff and use Meteor again.
- Frag stun. This could be ignored if Cage got the above mentioned changes.
- Streak stunning through block. So we have a way to deal with blockers. Make Curse blockable in return.
- Make Harness absorp stamina abilities as well, but reduce the resource gain for all damage types. Making it useful against stamina and eliminating the overpoweredness against magicka.
- Re-work the AWFUL targeting in this game. Fix LoS, if I see someone in front of me, no pebble should block my attacks. This should directly help with pet targeting issues.
I've been requesting those changes for a long time. Some for YEARS. At some point, you just give up and walk away saying "whatever", especially when you received a crutch to reach top tier. I've put my time and thoughts into this game, but ZOS always take the easy route. Don't blame me for this GODAWFUL combat then.
*shrugs*0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.
The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.
It’s people like you I have to thank for having my games filled with bot sorcs. Yeah, magsorc is def strong but idk I why it would be a good choice for a noob player. Bad sorcs and nbs are pretty much the easiest kills possible.
It's a good choice for a noob player because it has easy to play mechanics that have a much shorter learning curve than the other classes- I don;t want to be here: *streak* gone. Every other class has to either build or at least think how to leave a situation they don;t want to be in (although NBs come close, without detect pots they be on an even higher level)
- I want to kill that guy: preloaded executed, undodgable/unblockable burst in 3.5 seconds, RNG max range (another) burst. At least a NB has to weave light attacks and time their execute.
- I need healing: Do I press my burst heal that hits two targets for max value or do I press my shield button that gives me virtual health equivalent to a burst heal?
That's all easy peasy comparatively speaking. What is questionable is that these same easy peasy mechanics also happen to be at least as strong - if not stronger - than other classes' mechanics that are are more complex and restrictive.
Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.
Well technically if the sorc knows when to streak away and can sustain its ridiculous cost, knows how to land a burst of 4-5 different abilities and knows how to sustain shields when under pressure while also doing everything else you said, then maybe just maybe he is not so bad after all.
I mean i can literally make the exact same argument about templar. A bad templar just puts on heavy armor, starts blocking spamming breath of life on everyone and casting a preloaded burst ability that doesnt even require him to do dmg to the target for it to explode since other players can store dmg as well. Doesnt really sound more complex to me. If anything it sounds easier. Same for DKs same for NBs same for any other class tbh. So yeah, there is that.
Sure a bad sorc is probably more dangerous. But thats the nature of a more offensive class. Its obviously going to be more dangerous just as a tanky class like termplar or DK is probably going to be way more frustrating to fight against.
That's not the same argument. That's fulfilling one criteria (I need healing) when I listed three.
If you hold down block after casting Purifying Light, you will not get any burst out of the spell. A templar must continue to do things other than hold down block in order to get the damage curse would have, whereas a sorcerer could literally stand there AFK and get the explosion (2.5 seconds sooner no less). That's the whole point. Sorcerer mechanics are easier. And the templar is still in the same spot holding block if they don;t want to be there.
So, no, it's not the same.
Edited by Joy_Division on June 21, 2019 1:54PM5 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes you listed three criteria. Problem is that the way you listed them doesnt actually prescribe a "bad" player and it most definitely doesnt involve a braindead spamming of one button.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.
The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.
It’s people like you I have to thank for having my games filled with bot sorcs. Yeah, magsorc is def strong but idk I why it would be a good choice for a noob player. Bad sorcs and nbs are pretty much the easiest kills possible.
It's a good choice for a noob player because it has easy to play mechanics that have a much shorter learning curve than the other classes- I don;t want to be here: *streak* gone. Every other class has to either build or at least think how to leave a situation they don;t want to be in (although NBs come close, without detect pots they be on an even higher level)
- I want to kill that guy: preloaded executed, undodgable/unblockable burst in 3.5 seconds, RNG max range (another) burst. At least a NB has to weave light attacks and time their execute.
- I need healing: Do I press my burst heal that hits two targets for max value or do I press my shield button that gives me virtual health equivalent to a burst heal?
That's all easy peasy comparatively speaking. What is questionable is that these same easy peasy mechanics also happen to be at least as strong - if not stronger - than other classes' mechanics that are are more complex and restrictive.
Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.
Well technically if the sorc knows when to streak away and can sustain its ridiculous cost, knows how to land a burst of 4-5 different abilities and knows how to sustain shields when under pressure while also doing everything else you said, then maybe just maybe he is not so bad after all.
I mean i can literally make the exact same argument about templar. A bad templar just puts on heavy armor, starts blocking spamming breath of life on everyone and casting a preloaded burst ability that doesnt even require him to do dmg to the target for it to explode since other players can store dmg as well. Doesnt really sound more complex to me. If anything it sounds easier. Same for DKs same for NBs same for any other class tbh. So yeah, there is that.
Sure a bad sorc is probably more dangerous. But thats the nature of a more offensive class. Its obviously going to be more dangerous just as a tanky class like termplar or DK is probably going to be way more frustrating to fight against.
That's not the same argument. That's fulfilling one criteria (I need healing) when I listed three.
If you hold down block after casting Purifying Light, you will not get any burst out of the spell. A templar must continue to do things other than hold down block in order to get the damage curse would have, whereas a sorcerer could literally stand there AFK and get the explosion (2.5 seconds sooner no less). That's the whole point. Sorcerer mechanics are easier. And the templar is still in the same spot holding block if they don;t want to be there.
So, no, it's not the same.
The point of my example wasnt to compare sorc vs templar but to point out that other classes can be effective as well when played even by bad players and i gave you the most braindead example of someone completely new/very bad being actually very effective defensively and for group support by spamming literally one button and even be capable of being dangerous offensively. Your argument about not getting the explosion while blocking is completely missing the point of the example.
Yes sorcerer mechanics are easier to use, but that is when you actually get the hang of it. The issue with ur example is that the mechanics u listed and the correct way of using them is not usually done by a new/bad player so to say the learning curve is way easier or the class is easier to get into while listing those mechanics is not actually accurate and to subjective.
I mean, there is a reason why the majority of bad/new sorcs are choosing crystal blast over frags. Because the reality is while the sorc burst of lining up different abilities is prety straight forward and not hard to master, it is not in fact that easy to get into by a new/bad player. Same with shields and same with streak. Which is actually why bad/new sorcs are prety much free AP.
Point is, that better performing class does not actually equal to easier to get into for a new/bad player and while templar is in fact harder to master and doesnt perform as well it is in fact a much more straightforward class to get into and be effective at the beginning. Literally the first 3 abilities you get at level 3 is a single target/aoe spammable that heals you, a good single target/AOE dot providing a crit buff later on and one of the best burst heals which also heals other people. It really doesnt get much easier than that. Doesnt mean however that the class is easy to master or is going to perform just as good as a sorc later on.Edited by pieratsos on June 21, 2019 3:37PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm sorry, but this thread and many others like it are a massive joke. Far too many people who only seem to play magsorc, unable to look at balance from the POV of other classes. There have been more than enough valid arguments posted by other users, but it is always the same nonsense being posted in return.Opened the thread and went through checklist:
-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
-Sorcs playing victim --> check
-"Nerf sorc" memes being posted in a pathetic attempt to counter valid arguments --> check
-Fury/7th/bs SnB builds being brought up to somehow prove sorcs aren't that OP --> check
-The never ending "Sorc can't burst a good player" nonsense --> check
-Sorcs complaining they are not OP because they cannot do X as well as class X (while performing very good in most other aspects of combat) --> check
Yea... looks like the usual sorc thread to me
- completely unnecessary and content-lacking post by Koensol --> check
Looks like we're complete now, whooo...
\(-.-)/
Every decent player on PC EU that I have spoken with and doesn't only play magsorc agrees the class is top tier right now, and a little too strong in certain aspects. Always interesting to see certain forum posters always find a way to see things differently. And frankly, some of them are flatout delusional in believing Sorc still has many problems when compared to other classes.
Well if you look at sorc excluding harness and twilight the class still has problems and removing only one of the two might already create major problems for a large part of the playerbase.
Currently i don´t get really frustrated when looking at sorc from all my stam chars pov (disclaimer no stamplar or necro).
When i switch to my magica chars however - ew.
Trying to play magplar, DK, warden is a pita compared to sorc or nb.Edited by Derra on June 21, 2019 3:27PM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭-Delusional, biased and emotion filled posts from @Emma_Overload --> check
Imaging if @Emma_Overload and @Daus is actually the same master-troll person with 2 accounts, each patch agitating for magsorc/stamblade buffs, just to make both communities blow up their asses in the threads like this
Hahaha, I do enjoy riling up Sorc haters, but I promise I am just one person. I'm sure Daus would be horrified to be lumped in with a trashy hedge wizard like me! 😁
Some people really take these forum arguments way too seriously.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »
Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.
Its also the other way around. I feel the ceiling that a sorc can reach in top tier gameplay is limited due to class limitations
In the highest MMR bg's on our server, I would rather fight a team of pet sorcs rather than well top tier stam players
The mag sorc is bound to get shredded with a well timed burst combos as they need to face tank all the damage and dont synergize well with their team mates.
There is no shimerring shield, wings or cloak to avoid certain death and no cp has limited dodge roll capabilities for mag classes. The only thing which would have saved you was the 30k non crittable shield stack which no longer exist after shield nerfs
shields became stronger after the change to allow crits/resistance. Issue it there are not enough crit resistance in the game to handle the now 1.8-1.9 modifers floating around cyro.
Sorcs also have bound aegis for not only 8% more max mag adding to their shields, but having access to the same block mitigation, if not superior, to that of DK/warden builds running SNB.
Oh, come now. No one uses Bound Aegis unless absolutely trolling. Not slotted, and definitely not activated.
And I think blocking still doesn't mitigate damage done to shields?
yea you are right bound ageis is doo doo if you already have a 10k shield at 2300 cost lol.
its what happens after the shields (assuming there is still dmg left).
Shields against a basic typical cyro targetCRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 10k shield = 3018 shield left.
Total Mit = 100% (shield protected fully)
Higher tooltip dmg (though not many above 25k unless glass cannon):CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
35,375 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 11636
11636 - 10k shield = 1636 dmg
Total Mit = 95.7178% on shield+armor+3300 crit resists
with block:
1636 dmg * (1-50/100) = 818 dmg with basic block
Total Mit = 97.859%
But of course the shield is only subtracting an attack each time and the value carries over. 2x 15k attacks:CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 3018 shield left (from the first example) = 3963 dmg
Then is blocked:
3963 * (1-50/100) = 1981
Total Mit = 91.358% in this case
97%+ mitigation without heavy resists nor major protection is OVER-PERFORMING.
And if you compare the shield back when they protected against crits but armor was after the shield (using the higher tooltip so you can see the comparison of dmg hitting a sorc):CRIT (1.415 MOD):Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed under old formula) * (1+(8)/100) = 35,375 * (1.08)
35,375 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50) = 12,689.79075
Then shield subtracts:
12,689 - 10000 = * armor (0.917) = 2465
2465 dmg
Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
with block:
2465 * (1-50/100) = 1232with basic block
Total Mit with block included= 96.4821%
Conclusion:
shields over performing and need to adjust calculation and or sorc shield value to where they reduced dmg before mitigation.
93%/96% versus 95%/97% total mitigation.
I would recommend the following changes to shields calculated:
- decrease sorc shield so its below 10k to match other shields.
If you place something like a 5k shield in its place:CRIT (1.415 MOD):Total Mit = 85.1068 in this case which matches closer to relying on solely block mitigation and if you block it doesn't go into the mid 90%'s
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 8,223.70185
8,223.70185 - 4500 shield = 3,723 dmg
- or adjust the formula entirely (might help with lag):1st adjust the duration so you can cast it and it last like 18 seconds like it used to.
Then adjust the formula:
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed) * same vuln as live (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375 * (1.08)
35,375 * (1.08) - 20000 (no battlespirit on shield values) = 18,205
18,205 *(.73) *(.91)*(no battlespirit mitigation allowed on attackers dmg) = 12,093.5815
Then armor and block are applied subtracts (non crit; crit and crit resistance can apply here if this dmg crits):
12,093.5815 * (0.917) = 11,089 dmg
Total Mit = 55.0321%
with block:
17180 * (1-50/100) = 8590 with basic block
Total Mit = 77.516%
Total Mit = 55.0321% without block
Total Mit = 77.516% with block
The second option would makes shield more like health and about protecting against burst instead of casting it like a buff and stacking so you ignore dmg; it also amkes it so classes with terrible 4k shields can get back the 10k shields they once had boosting their defense. First option is closer to the class audit they missed out on.
Block mitigation changes will need to be looked at as well. Only thing I can think of is removing the 0.5s cost for 1s and dropping the base mitigation to 25% from 50%. This way snb retains base block 50% and its only a slight nerf to DK pve tanks since we can assume the block mitigation stacking will be bringing them closer to pre-nerf levels:Current :
15000 dmg * base block 0.50 = 7500
15000 dmg * base block 0.50* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100) = 15000 dmg * base block (0.50) * other block mitigation * (0.62) = 4,875
New changes:
15000 dmg * base block (.75) = 11,250
15000 dmg * base block (1-25/100)* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100)
15000 dmg * base block (.75) instead of (.50) * other block mitigation ((1-(38)/100) = 6,975Edited by Minno on June 21, 2019 6:03PMMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Saying getting 9k dmg on a 10k shield equals 100% dmg mitigation is something i haven´t seen so far.
Also on a breton hardened ward will still cost 2.7k magica.Edited by Derra on June 21, 2019 6:41PM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Mitaka211✭✭✭✭To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.
The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.
It’s people like you I have to thank for having my games filled with bot sorcs. Yeah, magsorc is def strong but idk I why it would be a good choice for a noob player. Bad sorcs and nbs are pretty much the easiest kills possible.
And still a bot sorc can do a lot more than a bot templar, bot warden, bot nb and bot dk 0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Saying getting 9k dmg on a 10k shield equals 100% dmg mitigation is something i haven´t seen so far.
Also on a breton hardened ward will still cost 2.7k magica.
Total mitigation is the effect of DMG to your health. If you take no dmg to your health l, you will have 100% mitigated that dmg.
2700 is cheaper than radiant ward which is 3300 as an imperial in light armor but only has a 4500 value at 30k health.
The other conclusion based on the numbers is that you can't spam shields to get that 100% and values under 5k are largely useless. Therefore the only solution I think is to remove crit and battlespirit on DMG hitting the shield. After that you'll have to hard audit everything because block is fundamentally Superior.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes you listed three criteria. Problem is that the way you listed them doesnt actually prescribe a "bad" player and it most definitely doesnt involve a braindead spamming of one button.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.
The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.
It’s people like you I have to thank for having my games filled with bot sorcs. Yeah, magsorc is def strong but idk I why it would be a good choice for a noob player. Bad sorcs and nbs are pretty much the easiest kills possible.
It's a good choice for a noob player because it has easy to play mechanics that have a much shorter learning curve than the other classes- I don;t want to be here: *streak* gone. Every other class has to either build or at least think how to leave a situation they don;t want to be in (although NBs come close, without detect pots they be on an even higher level)
- I want to kill that guy: preloaded executed, undodgable/unblockable burst in 3.5 seconds, RNG max range (another) burst. At least a NB has to weave light attacks and time their execute.
- I need healing: Do I press my burst heal that hits two targets for max value or do I press my shield button that gives me virtual health equivalent to a burst heal?
That's all easy peasy comparatively speaking. What is questionable is that these same easy peasy mechanics also happen to be at least as strong - if not stronger - than other classes' mechanics that are are more complex and restrictive.
Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.
Well technically if the sorc knows when to streak away and can sustain its ridiculous cost, knows how to land a burst of 4-5 different abilities and knows how to sustain shields when under pressure while also doing everything else you said, then maybe just maybe he is not so bad after all.
I mean i can literally make the exact same argument about templar. A bad templar just puts on heavy armor, starts blocking spamming breath of life on everyone and casting a preloaded burst ability that doesnt even require him to do dmg to the target for it to explode since other players can store dmg as well. Doesnt really sound more complex to me. If anything it sounds easier. Same for DKs same for NBs same for any other class tbh. So yeah, there is that.
Sure a bad sorc is probably more dangerous. But thats the nature of a more offensive class. Its obviously going to be more dangerous just as a tanky class like termplar or DK is probably going to be way more frustrating to fight against.
That's not the same argument. That's fulfilling one criteria (I need healing) when I listed three.
If you hold down block after casting Purifying Light, you will not get any burst out of the spell. A templar must continue to do things other than hold down block in order to get the damage curse would have, whereas a sorcerer could literally stand there AFK and get the explosion (2.5 seconds sooner no less). That's the whole point. Sorcerer mechanics are easier. And the templar is still in the same spot holding block if they don;t want to be there.
So, no, it's not the same.
The point of my example wasnt to compare sorc vs templar but to point out that other classes can be effective as well when played even by bad players and i gave you the most braindead example of someone completely new/very bad being actually very effective defensively and for group support by spamming literally one button and even be capable of being dangerous offensively. Your argument about not getting the explosion while blocking is completely missing the point of the example.
Yes sorcerer mechanics are easier to use, but that is when you actually get the hang of it. The issue with ur example is that the mechanics u listed and the correct way of using them is not usually done by a new/bad player so to say the learning curve is way easier or the class is easier to get into while listing those mechanics is not actually accurate and to subjective.
I mean, there is a reason why the majority of bad/new sorcs are choosing crystal blast over frags. Because the reality is while the sorc burst of lining up different abilities is prety straight forward and not hard to master, it is not in fact that easy to get into by a new/bad player. Same with shields and same with streak. Which is actually why bad/new sorcs are prety much free AP.
Point is, that better performing class does not actually equal to easier to get into for a new/bad player and while templar is in fact harder to master and doesnt perform as well it is in fact a much more straightforward class to get into and be effective at the beginning. Literally the first 3 abilities you get at level 3 is a single target/aoe spammable that heals you, a good single target/AOE dot providing a crit buff later on and one of the best burst heals which also heals other people. It really doesnt get much easier than that. Doesnt mean however that the class is easy to master or is going to perform just as good as a sorc later on.
You are not refuting that sorcerer is a good choice for a noob player.
You say it yourself: "the sorc burst of lining up different abilities is prety straight forward and not hard to master (i.e. shorter learning curve) ... while templar is in fact harder to master ."
That's the whole point. There is no disagreement there. Throw in easy mobility and one-button suriviability and that's the entire military trifecta of speed, firepower, and robustness all within relatively easy reach. Does the noob player want a shorter learning path to become reasonable effective and versatile? Sorcerer is a good choice. This isn't exactly controversial stuff.
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oxygen_thief✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Minno my ward in battlegrounds is 6598 for 2984 (5 light, 28.5k magicka, 22.5 health , 16.5 stamina)
my resistances is about 19.5/17.8/1.3(5 imp/2 wf) so shield blows away by one hit and i need to dodge, streak and block a lot. i dont feel that shields are over performing at all. do you want to reduce them, right?Edited by oxygen_thief on June 21, 2019 7:27PM1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭oxygen_thief wrote: »@Minno my ward in battlegrounds is 6598 for 2984 (5 light, 28.5k magicka, 22.5 health , 16.5 stamina)
my resistances is about 19.5/17.8/1.3(5 imp/2 wf) so shield blows away by one hit and i need to dodge, streak and block a lot. i dont feel that shields are over performing at all. do you want to reduce them, right?
I dont think nCP is balanced at all so lol. Though if you remove battlespirit from shield values and the dmg it reduces, you can say shields get buffed in nCP since tooltips are alot lower than this 15k im using, and your 6598 will actually be 13196 since my suggestion removes the 50% debuff on shields.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭oxygen_thief wrote: »@Minno my ward in battlegrounds is 6598 for 2984 (5 light, 28.5k magicka, 22.5 health , 16.5 stamina)
my resistances is about 19.5/17.8/1.3(5 imp/2 wf) so shield blows away by one hit and i need to dodge, streak and block a lot. i dont feel that shields are over performing at all. do you want to reduce them, right?
I don’t understand your point. Are you saying shields aren’t powerful in general, or is your argument that your build needs work?Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭oxygen_thief wrote: »@Minno my ward in battlegrounds is 6598 for 2984 (5 light, 28.5k magicka, 22.5 health , 16.5 stamina)
my resistances is about 19.5/17.8/1.3(5 imp/2 wf) so shield blows away by one hit and i need to dodge, streak and block a lot. i dont feel that shields are over performing at all. do you want to reduce them, right?
I don’t understand your point. Are you saying shields aren’t powerful in general, or is your argument that your build needs work?
hes saying the equation says on a 1 hit basis, shields are strong but once you start fighting multiple people all you are doing is casting shields to keep up with the volume. Which is fine, because that is the argument of 4k shields being subpar (and they are).
Removing them from battlespirit is the only way forward, unless we completely redesign them. Best design is the psijic shield; costs nothing but has a cooldown mechanic. Shame it too is hampered by battlespirit which is in itself terribly designed to flatten the game for casuals.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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