The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs

Iskiab

Minno wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

@Minno my ward in battlegrounds is 6598 for 2984 (5 light, 28.5k magicka, 22.5 health , 16.5 stamina)
my resistances is about 19.5/17.8/1.3(5 imp/2 wf) so shield blows away by one hit and i need to dodge, streak and block a lot. i dont feel that shields are over performing at all. do you want to reduce them, right?

I don’t understand your point. Are you saying shields aren’t powerful in general, or is your argument that your build needs work?

hes saying the equation says on a 1 hit basis, shields are strong but once you start fighting multiple people all you are doing is casting shields to keep up with the volume. Which is fine, because that is the argument of 4k shields being subpar (and they are).

Removing them from battlespirit is the only way forward, unless we completely redesign them. Best design is the psijic shield; costs nothing but has a cooldown mechanic. Shame it too is hampered by battlespirit which is in itself terribly designed to flatten the game for casuals.

Oh then he’s absolutely right. That’s why sorcs that don’t have the mitigation from the usual Chudan plus armour master are... not great.

Being squishy and relying on shields only works 1v1, even in BGs squishy specs suck.

Dojohoda

Here just to confirm that there is a marked increase in the pet magsorc population in lowbie Cyrodiil. Some small groups are all pet sorcs. They are typically very strong and they cannot be beat when it's even numbers.

That's all, carry on.

oxygen_thief

@Iskiab i have full chudan to free one slot. i dont see how it is balanced if sorcs are forced to use 2 tanky sets just for not being too squishy.

Dojohoda wrote: »

Here just to confirm that there is a marked increase in the pet magsorc population in lowbie Cyrodiil. Some small groups are all pet sorcs. They are typically very strong and they cannot be beat when it's even numbers.

That's all, carry on.

probably they are organized "pro" newbies in golden gear with poisons, maxed guild skills and with a voice communication. i dont know why people do it but its a lot of such players in the battlegrounds too

PhoenixGrey

Lattengrabscher wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDJdaGNdUrI

Did all the potatoes in this thread respawn in the video

Lokey0024

Elephant in the room, curse hitting so hard so quick and being unblockable/unavoidable. So at the beginning of the chainsaw of magic death combo they can re-apply weave easy, guaranteed hit just as they pile on the damage. Soo, first explode is weaker, second hits like it does now? To difficult to time the burst? Try it with 2 400-900 tick dots and an ult. Not impossible, but very much reliant on actual timing and skill

Iskiab

oxygen_thief wrote: »

@Iskiab i have full chudan to free one slot. i dont see how it is balanced if sorcs are forced to use 2 tanky sets just for not being too squishy.

True, you could not use Chudan but it’s being used to free an extra skill slot.

Two defensive sets sounds harsh, but it’s not really. Most mag, or anyone who does well, use one defensive set plus at least 2x protective. Basicly the 2nd defensive set allows more freedom in jewellery trait choices does it not? Chudan’s a defensive set but being used to allow more offense.

Lord-Otto

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Its also the other way around. I feel the ceiling that a sorc can reach in top tier gameplay is limited due to class limitations

In the highest MMR bg's on our server, I would rather fight a team of pet sorcs rather than well top tier stam players

The mag sorc is bound to get shredded with a well timed burst combos as they need to face tank all the damage and dont synergize well with their team mates.

There is no shimerring shield, wings or cloak to avoid certain death and no cp has limited dodge roll capabilities for mag classes. The only thing which would have saved you was the 30k non crittable shield stack which no longer exist after shield nerfs

shields became stronger after the change to allow crits/resistance. Issue it there are not enough crit resistance in the game to handle the now 1.8-1.9 modifers floating around cyro.

Sorcs also have bound aegis for not only 8% more max mag adding to their shields, but having access to the same block mitigation, if not superior, to that of DK/warden builds running SNB.

Oh, come now. No one uses Bound Aegis unless absolutely trolling. Not slotted, and definitely not activated.
And I think blocking still doesn't mitigate damage done to shields?

yea you are right bound ageis is doo doo if you already have a 10k shield at 2300 cost lol.
its what happens after the shields (assuming there is still dmg left).

Shields against a basic typical cyro target

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 10k shield = 3018 shield left.

Total Mit = 100% (shield protected fully)

Higher tooltip dmg (though not many above 25k unless glass cannon):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 11636
11636 - 10k shield = 1636 dmg
Total Mit = 95.7178% on shield+armor+3300 crit resists
with block:
1636 dmg * (1-50/100) = 818 dmg with basic block
Total Mit = 97.859%

But of course the shield is only subtracting an attack each time and the value carries over. 2x 15k attacks:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 3018 shield left (from the first example) = 3963 dmg
Then is blocked:
3963 * (1-50/100) = 1981

Total Mit = 91.358% in this case

97%+ mitigation without heavy resists nor major protection is OVER-PERFORMING.

And if you compare the shield back when they protected against crits but armor was after the shield (using the higher tooltip so you can see the comparison of dmg hitting a sorc):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed under old formula) * (1+(8)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50) = 12,689.79075
Then shield subtracts:
12,689 - 10000 = * armor (0.917) = 2465
2465 dmg
Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
with block:
2465 * (1-50/100) = 1232with basic block

Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
Total Mit with block included= 96.4821%

Conclusion:
shields over performing and need to adjust calculation and or sorc shield value to where they reduced dmg before mitigation.
93%/96% versus 95%/97% total mitigation.

I would recommend the following changes to shields calculated:
- decrease sorc shield so its below 10k to match other shields.
If you place something like a 5k shield in its place:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 8,223.70185‬
8,223.70185‬ - 4500 shield = 3,723‬ dmg

Total Mit = 85.1068 in this case which matches closer to relying on solely block mitigation and if you block it doesn't go into the mid 90%'s

- or adjust the formula entirely (might help with lag):

1st adjust the duration so you can cast it and it last like 18 seconds like it used to.
Then adjust the formula:
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed) * same vuln as live (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08) - 20000 (no battlespirit on shield values) = 18,205‬
18,205‬ *(.73) *(.91)*(no battlespirit mitigation allowed on attackers dmg) = 12,093.5815‬
Then armor and block are applied subtracts (non crit; crit and crit resistance can apply here if this dmg crits):
12,093.5815‬‬ * (0.917) = 11,089 dmg
Total Mit = 55.0321%
with block:
17180 * (1-50/100) = 8590 with basic block
Total Mit = 77.516%

Total Mit = 55.0321% without block
Total Mit = 77.516% with block

The second option would makes shield more like health and about protecting against burst instead of casting it like a buff and stacking so you ignore dmg; it also amkes it so classes with terrible 4k shields can get back the 10k shields they once had boosting their defense. First option is closer to the class audit they missed out on.

Block mitigation changes will need to be looked at as well. Only thing I can think of is removing the 0.5s cost for 1s and dropping the base mitigation to 25% from 50%. This way snb retains base block 50% and its only a slight nerf to DK pve tanks since we can assume the block mitigation stacking will be bringing them closer to pre-nerf levels:

Current :
15000 dmg * base block 0.50 = 7500
15000 dmg * base block 0.50* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100) = 15000 dmg * base block (0.50) * other block mitigation * (0.62‬) = 4,875‬
New changes:
15000 dmg * base block (.75) = 11,250
15000 dmg * base block (1-25/100)* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100)
15000 dmg * base block (.75) instead of (.50) * other block mitigation ((1-(38)/100) = 6,975

Gosh, those are a lot of numbers just to say for you: "nerf shields!".
You're forgetting two things, heals and dodges. Shields are supposed to keep your health untouched. Because if they wouldn't, you needed a lot more heals. Sure, nerf them. But then give us magicka Vigor. Shields are quite bursty, but stamina gets additional dodgerolls to protect health 100% in a burst. Also helps avoid CCs and debuffs.
That mitigation calculation isn't a good argument. Just say that you want shields nerfed.

darkblue5

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Its also the other way around. I feel the ceiling that a sorc can reach in top tier gameplay is limited due to class limitations

In the highest MMR bg's on our server, I would rather fight a team of pet sorcs rather than well top tier stam players

The mag sorc is bound to get shredded with a well timed burst combos as they need to face tank all the damage and dont synergize well with their team mates.

There is no shimerring shield, wings or cloak to avoid certain death and no cp has limited dodge roll capabilities for mag classes. The only thing which would have saved you was the 30k non crittable shield stack which no longer exist after shield nerfs

shields became stronger after the change to allow crits/resistance. Issue it there are not enough crit resistance in the game to handle the now 1.8-1.9 modifers floating around cyro.

Sorcs also have bound aegis for not only 8% more max mag adding to their shields, but having access to the same block mitigation, if not superior, to that of DK/warden builds running SNB.

Oh, come now. No one uses Bound Aegis unless absolutely trolling. Not slotted, and definitely not activated.
And I think blocking still doesn't mitigate damage done to shields?

yea you are right bound ageis is doo doo if you already have a 10k shield at 2300 cost lol.
its what happens after the shields (assuming there is still dmg left).

Shields against a basic typical cyro target

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 10k shield = 3018 shield left.

Total Mit = 100% (shield protected fully)

Higher tooltip dmg (though not many above 25k unless glass cannon):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 11636
11636 - 10k shield = 1636 dmg
Total Mit = 95.7178% on shield+armor+3300 crit resists
with block:
1636 dmg * (1-50/100) = 818 dmg with basic block
Total Mit = 97.859%

But of course the shield is only subtracting an attack each time and the value carries over. 2x 15k attacks:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 3018 shield left (from the first example) = 3963 dmg
Then is blocked:
3963 * (1-50/100) = 1981

Total Mit = 91.358% in this case

97%+ mitigation without heavy resists nor major protection is OVER-PERFORMING.

And if you compare the shield back when they protected against crits but armor was after the shield (using the higher tooltip so you can see the comparison of dmg hitting a sorc):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed under old formula) * (1+(8)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50) = 12,689.79075
Then shield subtracts:
12,689 - 10000 = * armor (0.917) = 2465
2465 dmg
Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
with block:
2465 * (1-50/100) = 1232with basic block

Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
Total Mit with block included= 96.4821%

Conclusion:
shields over performing and need to adjust calculation and or sorc shield value to where they reduced dmg before mitigation.
93%/96% versus 95%/97% total mitigation.

I would recommend the following changes to shields calculated:
- decrease sorc shield so its below 10k to match other shields.
If you place something like a 5k shield in its place:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 8,223.70185‬
8,223.70185‬ - 4500 shield = 3,723‬ dmg

Total Mit = 85.1068 in this case which matches closer to relying on solely block mitigation and if you block it doesn't go into the mid 90%'s

- or adjust the formula entirely (might help with lag):

1st adjust the duration so you can cast it and it last like 18 seconds like it used to.
Then adjust the formula:
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed) * same vuln as live (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08) - 20000 (no battlespirit on shield values) = 18,205‬
18,205‬ *(.73) *(.91)*(no battlespirit mitigation allowed on attackers dmg) = 12,093.5815‬
Then armor and block are applied subtracts (non crit; crit and crit resistance can apply here if this dmg crits):
12,093.5815‬‬ * (0.917) = 11,089 dmg
Total Mit = 55.0321%
with block:
17180 * (1-50/100) = 8590 with basic block
Total Mit = 77.516%

Total Mit = 55.0321% without block
Total Mit = 77.516% with block

The second option would makes shield more like health and about protecting against burst instead of casting it like a buff and stacking so you ignore dmg; it also amkes it so classes with terrible 4k shields can get back the 10k shields they once had boosting their defense. First option is closer to the class audit they missed out on.

Block mitigation changes will need to be looked at as well. Only thing I can think of is removing the 0.5s cost for 1s and dropping the base mitigation to 25% from 50%. This way snb retains base block 50% and its only a slight nerf to DK pve tanks since we can assume the block mitigation stacking will be bringing them closer to pre-nerf levels:

Current :
15000 dmg * base block 0.50 = 7500
15000 dmg * base block 0.50* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100) = 15000 dmg * base block (0.50) * other block mitigation * (0.62‬) = 4,875‬
New changes:
15000 dmg * base block (.75) = 11,250
15000 dmg * base block (1-25/100)* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100)
15000 dmg * base block (.75) instead of (.50) * other block mitigation ((1-(38)/100) = 6,975

Gosh, those are a lot of numbers just to say for you: "nerf shields!".
You're forgetting two things, heals and dodges. Shields are supposed to keep your health untouched. Because if they wouldn't, you needed a lot more heals. Sure, nerf them. But then give us magicka Vigor. Shields are quite bursty, but stamina gets additional dodgerolls to protect health 100% in a burst. Also helps avoid CCs and debuffs.
That mitigation calculation isn't a good argument. Just say that you want shields nerfed.

Mag classes can dodge roll too. Not only that but mag classes and dodge roll and get slammed by AOE and other random stuff that goes through dodge.

The real culprit is resistance based mitigation over performing full stop. Block mitigation bonuses probably need to be reevaluated too... but the high resistance meta has existed for years before the block changes.

Minno

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Its also the other way around. I feel the ceiling that a sorc can reach in top tier gameplay is limited due to class limitations

In the highest MMR bg's on our server, I would rather fight a team of pet sorcs rather than well top tier stam players

The mag sorc is bound to get shredded with a well timed burst combos as they need to face tank all the damage and dont synergize well with their team mates.

There is no shimerring shield, wings or cloak to avoid certain death and no cp has limited dodge roll capabilities for mag classes. The only thing which would have saved you was the 30k non crittable shield stack which no longer exist after shield nerfs

shields became stronger after the change to allow crits/resistance. Issue it there are not enough crit resistance in the game to handle the now 1.8-1.9 modifers floating around cyro.

Sorcs also have bound aegis for not only 8% more max mag adding to their shields, but having access to the same block mitigation, if not superior, to that of DK/warden builds running SNB.

Oh, come now. No one uses Bound Aegis unless absolutely trolling. Not slotted, and definitely not activated.
And I think blocking still doesn't mitigate damage done to shields?

yea you are right bound ageis is doo doo if you already have a 10k shield at 2300 cost lol.
its what happens after the shields (assuming there is still dmg left).

Shields against a basic typical cyro target

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 10k shield = 3018 shield left.

Total Mit = 100% (shield protected fully)

Higher tooltip dmg (though not many above 25k unless glass cannon):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 11636
11636 - 10k shield = 1636 dmg
Total Mit = 95.7178% on shield+armor+3300 crit resists
with block:
1636 dmg * (1-50/100) = 818 dmg with basic block
Total Mit = 97.859%

But of course the shield is only subtracting an attack each time and the value carries over. 2x 15k attacks:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 3018 shield left (from the first example) = 3963 dmg
Then is blocked:
3963 * (1-50/100) = 1981

Total Mit = 91.358% in this case

97%+ mitigation without heavy resists nor major protection is OVER-PERFORMING.

And if you compare the shield back when they protected against crits but armor was after the shield (using the higher tooltip so you can see the comparison of dmg hitting a sorc):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed under old formula) * (1+(8)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50) = 12,689.79075
Then shield subtracts:
12,689 - 10000 = * armor (0.917) = 2465
2465 dmg
Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
with block:
2465 * (1-50/100) = 1232with basic block

Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
Total Mit with block included= 96.4821%

Conclusion:
shields over performing and need to adjust calculation and or sorc shield value to where they reduced dmg before mitigation.
93%/96% versus 95%/97% total mitigation.

I would recommend the following changes to shields calculated:
- decrease sorc shield so its below 10k to match other shields.
If you place something like a 5k shield in its place:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 8,223.70185‬
8,223.70185‬ - 4500 shield = 3,723‬ dmg

Total Mit = 85.1068 in this case which matches closer to relying on solely block mitigation and if you block it doesn't go into the mid 90%'s

- or adjust the formula entirely (might help with lag):

1st adjust the duration so you can cast it and it last like 18 seconds like it used to.
Then adjust the formula:
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed) * same vuln as live (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08) - 20000 (no battlespirit on shield values) = 18,205‬
18,205‬ *(.73) *(.91)*(no battlespirit mitigation allowed on attackers dmg) = 12,093.5815‬
Then armor and block are applied subtracts (non crit; crit and crit resistance can apply here if this dmg crits):
12,093.5815‬‬ * (0.917) = 11,089 dmg
Total Mit = 55.0321%
with block:
17180 * (1-50/100) = 8590 with basic block
Total Mit = 77.516%

Total Mit = 55.0321% without block
Total Mit = 77.516% with block

The second option would makes shield more like health and about protecting against burst instead of casting it like a buff and stacking so you ignore dmg; it also amkes it so classes with terrible 4k shields can get back the 10k shields they once had boosting their defense. First option is closer to the class audit they missed out on.

Block mitigation changes will need to be looked at as well. Only thing I can think of is removing the 0.5s cost for 1s and dropping the base mitigation to 25% from 50%. This way snb retains base block 50% and its only a slight nerf to DK pve tanks since we can assume the block mitigation stacking will be bringing them closer to pre-nerf levels:

Current :
15000 dmg * base block 0.50 = 7500
15000 dmg * base block 0.50* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100) = 15000 dmg * base block (0.50) * other block mitigation * (0.62‬) = 4,875‬
New changes:
15000 dmg * base block (.75) = 11,250
15000 dmg * base block (1-25/100)* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100)
15000 dmg * base block (.75) instead of (.50) * other block mitigation ((1-(38)/100) = 6,975

Gosh, those are a lot of numbers just to say for you: "nerf shields!".
You're forgetting two things, heals and dodges. Shields are supposed to keep your health untouched. Because if they wouldn't, you needed a lot more heals. Sure, nerf them. But then give us magicka Vigor. Shields are quite bursty, but stamina gets additional dodgerolls to protect health 100% in a burst. Also helps avoid CCs and debuffs.
That mitigation calculation isn't a good argument. Just say that you want shields nerfed.

Dodge has cost increase mechanic and only can dodge direct instant cast. Shields do not.

You also can't compare shields to dodge because everyone can dodge roll, not everyone can shield unless they wear a certain armor.

Battlespirit and uncrit are great changes because it buffs lower shields while nerfing the strongest shield in the game.

Unless sorcs want to drop pets or speed lol

pieratsos

Joy_Division wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

Mitaka211 wrote: »

To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.

The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.

It’s people like you I have to thank for having my games filled with bot sorcs. Yeah, magsorc is def strong but idk I why it would be a good choice for a noob player. Bad sorcs and nbs are pretty much the easiest kills possible.

It's a good choice for a noob player because it has easy to play mechanics that have a much shorter learning curve than the other classes

• I don;t want to be here: *streak* gone. Every other class has to either build or at least think how to leave a situation they don;t want to be in (although NBs come close, without detect pots they be on an even higher level)
• I want to kill that guy: preloaded executed, undodgable/unblockable burst in 3.5 seconds, RNG max range (another) burst. At least a NB has to weave light attacks and time their execute.
• I need healing: Do I press my burst heal that hits two targets for max value or do I press my shield button that gives me virtual health equivalent to a burst heal?

That's all easy peasy comparatively speaking. What is questionable is that these same easy peasy mechanics also happen to be at least as strong - if not stronger - than other classes' mechanics that are are more complex and restrictive.

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Well technically if the sorc knows when to streak away and can sustain its ridiculous cost, knows how to land a burst of 4-5 different abilities and knows how to sustain shields when under pressure while also doing everything else you said, then maybe just maybe he is not so bad after all.

I mean i can literally make the exact same argument about templar. A bad templar just puts on heavy armor, starts blocking spamming breath of life on everyone and casting a preloaded burst ability that doesnt even require him to do dmg to the target for it to explode since other players can store dmg as well. Doesnt really sound more complex to me. If anything it sounds easier. Same for DKs same for NBs same for any other class tbh. So yeah, there is that.

Sure a bad sorc is probably more dangerous. But thats the nature of a more offensive class. Its obviously going to be more dangerous just as a tanky class like termplar or DK is probably going to be way more frustrating to fight against.

That's not the same argument. That's fulfilling one criteria (I need healing) when I listed three.

If you hold down block after casting Purifying Light, you will not get any burst out of the spell. A templar must continue to do things other than hold down block in order to get the damage curse would have, whereas a sorcerer could literally stand there AFK and get the explosion (2.5 seconds sooner no less). That's the whole point. Sorcerer mechanics are easier. And the templar is still in the same spot holding block if they don;t want to be there.

So, no, it's not the same.

Yes you listed three criteria. Problem is that the way you listed them doesnt actually prescribe a "bad" player and it most definitely doesnt involve a braindead spamming of one button.

The point of my example wasnt to compare sorc vs templar but to point out that other classes can be effective as well when played even by bad players and i gave you the most braindead example of someone completely new/very bad being actually very effective defensively and for group support by spamming literally one button and even be capable of being dangerous offensively. Your argument about not getting the explosion while blocking is completely missing the point of the example.

Yes sorcerer mechanics are easier to use, but that is when you actually get the hang of it. The issue with ur example is that the mechanics u listed and the correct way of using them is not usually done by a new/bad player so to say the learning curve is way easier or the class is easier to get into while listing those mechanics is not actually accurate and to subjective.

I mean, there is a reason why the majority of bad/new sorcs are choosing crystal blast over frags. Because the reality is while the sorc burst of lining up different abilities is prety straight forward and not hard to master, it is not in fact that easy to get into by a new/bad player. Same with shields and same with streak. Which is actually why bad/new sorcs are prety much free AP.

Point is, that better performing class does not actually equal to easier to get into for a new/bad player and while templar is in fact harder to master and doesnt perform as well it is in fact a much more straightforward class to get into and be effective at the beginning. Literally the first 3 abilities you get at level 3 is a single target/aoe spammable that heals you, a good single target/AOE dot providing a crit buff later on and one of the best burst heals which also heals other people. It really doesnt get much easier than that. Doesnt mean however that the class is easy to master or is going to perform just as good as a sorc later on.

You are not refuting that sorcerer is a good choice for a noob player.

You say it yourself: "the sorc burst of lining up different abilities is prety straight forward and not hard to master (i.e. shorter learning curve) ... while templar is in fact harder to master ."

That's the whole point. There is no disagreement there. Throw in easy mobility and one-button suriviability and that's the entire military trifecta of speed, firepower, and robustness all within relatively easy reach. Does the noob player want a shorter learning path to become reasonable effective and versatile? Sorcerer is a good choice. This isn't exactly controversial stuff.

Yes once you get the hang of it and once you start looking at the overall performance of the class. That's what you don't get. You are not describing bad or new players. You are describing players who actually know what they are doing while conveniently ignore that new and bad sorcs are pretty much the easiest kills while a bad Templar for example can be a hell to kill.

Let me pu it this way. There is a new player who wants to get into the game and wants an easy class to begin. You are actually telling me that ur first choice is to tell him to use a class with kinda complicated survivability and heal options, a mobility tool that murders ur magicka if u don't use it correctly and an offensive toolkit which requires lining up different abilities to hit at the same time. This is seriously ur first choice of an easy class to get into?

MaxJrFTW

Balance and magsorcs in the same sentence. You almost had me though, I'll give you a 1/10 for the effort. 😂😂😂

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

Derra

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

Mitaka211 wrote: »

To be honest it's not even about the under performing of some classes. Mag sorcs are by far the safest pick for pvp for a new player. They outperform any other class (some by a stupid amount) and for a class that can delete people from a mile away it is really mobile and tanky. Like i don't know how people are still in denial about it.

The devs are clearly in denial about it as well. Like magsorcs are really out of control in this expansion.

It’s people like you I have to thank for having my games filled with bot sorcs. Yeah, magsorc is def strong but idk I why it would be a good choice for a noob player. Bad sorcs and nbs are pretty much the easiest kills possible.

It's a good choice for a noob player because it has easy to play mechanics that have a much shorter learning curve than the other classes

• I don;t want to be here: *streak* gone. Every other class has to either build or at least think how to leave a situation they don;t want to be in (although NBs come close, without detect pots they be on an even higher level)
• I want to kill that guy: preloaded executed, undodgable/unblockable burst in 3.5 seconds, RNG max range (another) burst. At least a NB has to weave light attacks and time their execute.
• I need healing: Do I press my burst heal that hits two targets for max value or do I press my shield button that gives me virtual health equivalent to a burst heal?

That's all easy peasy comparatively speaking. What is questionable is that these same easy peasy mechanics also happen to be at least as strong - if not stronger - than other classes' mechanics that are are more complex and restrictive.

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Well technically if the sorc knows when to streak away and can sustain its ridiculous cost, knows how to land a burst of 4-5 different abilities and knows how to sustain shields when under pressure while also doing everything else you said, then maybe just maybe he is not so bad after all.

I mean i can literally make the exact same argument about templar. A bad templar just puts on heavy armor, starts blocking spamming breath of life on everyone and casting a preloaded burst ability that doesnt even require him to do dmg to the target for it to explode since other players can store dmg as well. Doesnt really sound more complex to me. If anything it sounds easier. Same for DKs same for NBs same for any other class tbh. So yeah, there is that.

Sure a bad sorc is probably more dangerous. But thats the nature of a more offensive class. Its obviously going to be more dangerous just as a tanky class like termplar or DK is probably going to be way more frustrating to fight against.

That's not the same argument. That's fulfilling one criteria (I need healing) when I listed three.

If you hold down block after casting Purifying Light, you will not get any burst out of the spell. A templar must continue to do things other than hold down block in order to get the damage curse would have, whereas a sorcerer could literally stand there AFK and get the explosion (2.5 seconds sooner no less). That's the whole point. Sorcerer mechanics are easier. And the templar is still in the same spot holding block if they don;t want to be there.

So, no, it's not the same.

Yes you listed three criteria. Problem is that the way you listed them doesnt actually prescribe a "bad" player and it most definitely doesnt involve a braindead spamming of one button.

The point of my example wasnt to compare sorc vs templar but to point out that other classes can be effective as well when played even by bad players and i gave you the most braindead example of someone completely new/very bad being actually very effective defensively and for group support by spamming literally one button and even be capable of being dangerous offensively. Your argument about not getting the explosion while blocking is completely missing the point of the example.

Yes sorcerer mechanics are easier to use, but that is when you actually get the hang of it. The issue with ur example is that the mechanics u listed and the correct way of using them is not usually done by a new/bad player so to say the learning curve is way easier or the class is easier to get into while listing those mechanics is not actually accurate and to subjective.

I mean, there is a reason why the majority of bad/new sorcs are choosing crystal blast over frags. Because the reality is while the sorc burst of lining up different abilities is prety straight forward and not hard to master, it is not in fact that easy to get into by a new/bad player. Same with shields and same with streak. Which is actually why bad/new sorcs are prety much free AP.

Point is, that better performing class does not actually equal to easier to get into for a new/bad player and while templar is in fact harder to master and doesnt perform as well it is in fact a much more straightforward class to get into and be effective at the beginning. Literally the first 3 abilities you get at level 3 is a single target/aoe spammable that heals you, a good single target/AOE dot providing a crit buff later on and one of the best burst heals which also heals other people. It really doesnt get much easier than that. Doesnt mean however that the class is easy to master or is going to perform just as good as a sorc later on.

You are not refuting that sorcerer is a good choice for a noob player.

You say it yourself: "the sorc burst of lining up different abilities is prety straight forward and not hard to master (i.e. shorter learning curve) ... while templar is in fact harder to master ."

That's the whole point. There is no disagreement there. Throw in easy mobility and one-button suriviability and that's the entire military trifecta of speed, firepower, and robustness all within relatively easy reach. Does the noob player want a shorter learning path to become reasonable effective and versatile? Sorcerer is a good choice. This isn't exactly controversial stuff.

Yes once you get the hang of it and once you start looking at the overall performance of the class. That's what you don't get. You are not describing bad or new players. You are describing players who actually know what they are doing while conveniently ignore that new and bad sorcs are pretty much the easiest kills while a bad Templar for example can be a hell to kill.

Let me pu it this way. There is a new player who wants to get into the game and wants an easy class to begin. You are actually telling me that ur first choice is to tell him to use a class with kinda complicated survivability and heal options, a mobility tool that murders ur magicka if u don't use it correctly and an offensive toolkit which requires lining up different abilities to hit at the same time. This is seriously ur first choice of an easy class to get into?

I think if you altered your tone a bit joy would be more inclined to agree with you.

Generally speaking i think you´re both right in a way. It depends on the button pressing abilities of the new player and what he actually wants to do in pvp.
If the player has a low skillceiling (and by that i mean not being able to actively manage atleast 6 different skills situaionally) while also moving their character and aiming sorc is an absolutely TERRIBLE class for them. And there are lots of those players and there is nothing wrong with that.
Such a player i´d advise to play a nb with snipe as the main attack if they want an offensive character.
I´d advise them to play a templar if they want a supportive character and a DK if they want to be a tank/cc bot.

If however the player is just new but otherwise has an atleast average button pressing ability sorc would be my absolute first choice of recommendation for them (or stamblade if they prefer melee).

But then you also have to take into account open world or BGs and CP or noCP for cyrodiil. If they actually want to play ranged/caster or prefer melee...

Lord-Otto

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Its also the other way around. I feel the ceiling that a sorc can reach in top tier gameplay is limited due to class limitations

In the highest MMR bg's on our server, I would rather fight a team of pet sorcs rather than well top tier stam players

The mag sorc is bound to get shredded with a well timed burst combos as they need to face tank all the damage and dont synergize well with their team mates.

There is no shimerring shield, wings or cloak to avoid certain death and no cp has limited dodge roll capabilities for mag classes. The only thing which would have saved you was the 30k non crittable shield stack which no longer exist after shield nerfs

shields became stronger after the change to allow crits/resistance. Issue it there are not enough crit resistance in the game to handle the now 1.8-1.9 modifers floating around cyro.

Sorcs also have bound aegis for not only 8% more max mag adding to their shields, but having access to the same block mitigation, if not superior, to that of DK/warden builds running SNB.

Oh, come now. No one uses Bound Aegis unless absolutely trolling. Not slotted, and definitely not activated.
And I think blocking still doesn't mitigate damage done to shields?

yea you are right bound ageis is doo doo if you already have a 10k shield at 2300 cost lol.
its what happens after the shields (assuming there is still dmg left).

Shields against a basic typical cyro target

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 10k shield = 3018 shield left.

Total Mit = 100% (shield protected fully)

Higher tooltip dmg (though not many above 25k unless glass cannon):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 11636
11636 - 10k shield = 1636 dmg
Total Mit = 95.7178% on shield+armor+3300 crit resists
with block:
1636 dmg * (1-50/100) = 818 dmg with basic block
Total Mit = 97.859%

But of course the shield is only subtracting an attack each time and the value carries over. 2x 15k attacks:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 3018 shield left (from the first example) = 3963 dmg
Then is blocked:
3963 * (1-50/100) = 1981

Total Mit = 91.358% in this case

97%+ mitigation without heavy resists nor major protection is OVER-PERFORMING.

And if you compare the shield back when they protected against crits but armor was after the shield (using the higher tooltip so you can see the comparison of dmg hitting a sorc):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed under old formula) * (1+(8)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50) = 12,689.79075
Then shield subtracts:
12,689 - 10000 = * armor (0.917) = 2465
2465 dmg
Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
with block:
2465 * (1-50/100) = 1232with basic block

Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
Total Mit with block included= 96.4821%

Conclusion:
shields over performing and need to adjust calculation and or sorc shield value to where they reduced dmg before mitigation.
93%/96% versus 95%/97% total mitigation.

I would recommend the following changes to shields calculated:
- decrease sorc shield so its below 10k to match other shields.
If you place something like a 5k shield in its place:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 8,223.70185‬
8,223.70185‬ - 4500 shield = 3,723‬ dmg

Total Mit = 85.1068 in this case which matches closer to relying on solely block mitigation and if you block it doesn't go into the mid 90%'s

- or adjust the formula entirely (might help with lag):

1st adjust the duration so you can cast it and it last like 18 seconds like it used to.
Then adjust the formula:
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed) * same vuln as live (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08) - 20000 (no battlespirit on shield values) = 18,205‬
18,205‬ *(.73) *(.91)*(no battlespirit mitigation allowed on attackers dmg) = 12,093.5815‬
Then armor and block are applied subtracts (non crit; crit and crit resistance can apply here if this dmg crits):
12,093.5815‬‬ * (0.917) = 11,089 dmg
Total Mit = 55.0321%
with block:
17180 * (1-50/100) = 8590 with basic block
Total Mit = 77.516%

Total Mit = 55.0321% without block
Total Mit = 77.516% with block

The second option would makes shield more like health and about protecting against burst instead of casting it like a buff and stacking so you ignore dmg; it also amkes it so classes with terrible 4k shields can get back the 10k shields they once had boosting their defense. First option is closer to the class audit they missed out on.

Block mitigation changes will need to be looked at as well. Only thing I can think of is removing the 0.5s cost for 1s and dropping the base mitigation to 25% from 50%. This way snb retains base block 50% and its only a slight nerf to DK pve tanks since we can assume the block mitigation stacking will be bringing them closer to pre-nerf levels:

Current :
15000 dmg * base block 0.50 = 7500
15000 dmg * base block 0.50* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100) = 15000 dmg * base block (0.50) * other block mitigation * (0.62‬) = 4,875‬
New changes:
15000 dmg * base block (.75) = 11,250
15000 dmg * base block (1-25/100)* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100)
15000 dmg * base block (.75) instead of (.50) * other block mitigation ((1-(38)/100) = 6,975

Gosh, those are a lot of numbers just to say for you: "nerf shields!".
You're forgetting two things, heals and dodges. Shields are supposed to keep your health untouched. Because if they wouldn't, you needed a lot more heals. Sure, nerf them. But then give us magicka Vigor. Shields are quite bursty, but stamina gets additional dodgerolls to protect health 100% in a burst. Also helps avoid CCs and debuffs.
That mitigation calculation isn't a good argument. Just say that you want shields nerfed.

Dodge has cost increase mechanic and only can dodge direct instant cast. Shields do not.

You also can't compare shields to dodge because everyone can dodge roll, not everyone can shield unless they wear a certain armor.

Battlespirit and uncrit are great changes because it buffs lower shields while nerfing the strongest shield in the game.

Unless sorcs want to drop pets or speed lol

Stamina gets MORE dodgerolls than magicka, I said that. That's certainly an advantage.

Emma_Overload

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

I don't believe ANYBODY who says this. It just doesn't fit the mentality of the ESO player base that I've observed over the years. As far as I can tell, EVERYBODY is constantly searching for a better way of accomplishing their goals, and in PvP, the goal is to kill other players before they kill you.

I think if Mag Sorcs were really as overpowered as the forum "experts" say, you would see THREE things happen:

1) "Nerf Sorc" threads would disappear from the forums, because almost everyone would BE a Sorc.

2) The forums would be full of "Nerf Stamblade" and "Nerf Stamden" threads, because these are the specs that give us the most trouble.

3) @Fengrush would main a Mag Sorc, because I know for damn sure that guy doesn't care about nothing except killing everything he sees as quickly as possible

Minno

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Its also the other way around. I feel the ceiling that a sorc can reach in top tier gameplay is limited due to class limitations

In the highest MMR bg's on our server, I would rather fight a team of pet sorcs rather than well top tier stam players

The mag sorc is bound to get shredded with a well timed burst combos as they need to face tank all the damage and dont synergize well with their team mates.

There is no shimerring shield, wings or cloak to avoid certain death and no cp has limited dodge roll capabilities for mag classes. The only thing which would have saved you was the 30k non crittable shield stack which no longer exist after shield nerfs

shields became stronger after the change to allow crits/resistance. Issue it there are not enough crit resistance in the game to handle the now 1.8-1.9 modifers floating around cyro.

Sorcs also have bound aegis for not only 8% more max mag adding to their shields, but having access to the same block mitigation, if not superior, to that of DK/warden builds running SNB.

Oh, come now. No one uses Bound Aegis unless absolutely trolling. Not slotted, and definitely not activated.
And I think blocking still doesn't mitigate damage done to shields?

yea you are right bound ageis is doo doo if you already have a 10k shield at 2300 cost lol.
its what happens after the shields (assuming there is still dmg left).

Shields against a basic typical cyro target

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 10k shield = 3018 shield left.

Total Mit = 100% (shield protected fully)

Higher tooltip dmg (though not many above 25k unless glass cannon):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 11636
11636 - 10k shield = 1636 dmg
Total Mit = 95.7178% on shield+armor+3300 crit resists
with block:
1636 dmg * (1-50/100) = 818 dmg with basic block
Total Mit = 97.859%

But of course the shield is only subtracting an attack each time and the value carries over. 2x 15k attacks:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 3018 shield left (from the first example) = 3963 dmg
Then is blocked:
3963 * (1-50/100) = 1981

Total Mit = 91.358% in this case

97%+ mitigation without heavy resists nor major protection is OVER-PERFORMING.

And if you compare the shield back when they protected against crits but armor was after the shield (using the higher tooltip so you can see the comparison of dmg hitting a sorc):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed under old formula) * (1+(8)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50) = 12,689.79075
Then shield subtracts:
12,689 - 10000 = * armor (0.917) = 2465
2465 dmg
Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
with block:
2465 * (1-50/100) = 1232with basic block

Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
Total Mit with block included= 96.4821%

Conclusion:
shields over performing and need to adjust calculation and or sorc shield value to where they reduced dmg before mitigation.
93%/96% versus 95%/97% total mitigation.

I would recommend the following changes to shields calculated:
- decrease sorc shield so its below 10k to match other shields.
If you place something like a 5k shield in its place:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 8,223.70185‬
8,223.70185‬ - 4500 shield = 3,723‬ dmg

Total Mit = 85.1068 in this case which matches closer to relying on solely block mitigation and if you block it doesn't go into the mid 90%'s

- or adjust the formula entirely (might help with lag):

1st adjust the duration so you can cast it and it last like 18 seconds like it used to.
Then adjust the formula:
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed) * same vuln as live (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08) - 20000 (no battlespirit on shield values) = 18,205‬
18,205‬ *(.73) *(.91)*(no battlespirit mitigation allowed on attackers dmg) = 12,093.5815‬
Then armor and block are applied subtracts (non crit; crit and crit resistance can apply here if this dmg crits):
12,093.5815‬‬ * (0.917) = 11,089 dmg
Total Mit = 55.0321%
with block:
17180 * (1-50/100) = 8590 with basic block
Total Mit = 77.516%

Total Mit = 55.0321% without block
Total Mit = 77.516% with block

The second option would makes shield more like health and about protecting against burst instead of casting it like a buff and stacking so you ignore dmg; it also amkes it so classes with terrible 4k shields can get back the 10k shields they once had boosting their defense. First option is closer to the class audit they missed out on.

Block mitigation changes will need to be looked at as well. Only thing I can think of is removing the 0.5s cost for 1s and dropping the base mitigation to 25% from 50%. This way snb retains base block 50% and its only a slight nerf to DK pve tanks since we can assume the block mitigation stacking will be bringing them closer to pre-nerf levels:

Current :
15000 dmg * base block 0.50 = 7500
15000 dmg * base block 0.50* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100) = 15000 dmg * base block (0.50) * other block mitigation * (0.62‬) = 4,875‬
New changes:
15000 dmg * base block (.75) = 11,250
15000 dmg * base block (1-25/100)* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100)
15000 dmg * base block (.75) instead of (.50) * other block mitigation ((1-(38)/100) = 6,975

Gosh, those are a lot of numbers just to say for you: "nerf shields!".
You're forgetting two things, heals and dodges. Shields are supposed to keep your health untouched. Because if they wouldn't, you needed a lot more heals. Sure, nerf them. But then give us magicka Vigor. Shields are quite bursty, but stamina gets additional dodgerolls to protect health 100% in a burst. Also helps avoid CCs and debuffs.
That mitigation calculation isn't a good argument. Just say that you want shields nerfed.

Dodge has cost increase mechanic and only can dodge direct instant cast. Shields do not.

You also can't compare shields to dodge because everyone can dodge roll, not everyone can shield unless they wear a certain armor.

Battlespirit and uncrit are great changes because it buffs lower shields while nerfing the strongest shield in the game.

Unless sorcs want to drop pets or speed lol

Stamina gets MORE dodgerolls than magicka, I said that. That's certainly an advantage.

That's fine because mag gets the shield access.

There's a way to nerf it 1v1 and make it better for versatile situations.

MaxJrFTW

Emma_Overload wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

I don't believe ANYBODY who says this. It just doesn't fit the mentality of the ESO player base that I've observed over the years. As far as I can tell, EVERYBODY is constantly searching for a better way of accomplishing their goals, and in PvP, the goal is to kill other players before they kill you.

I think if Mag Sorcs were really as overpowered as the forum "experts" say, you would see THREE things happen:

1) "Nerf Sorc" threads would disappear from the forums, because almost everyone would BE a Sorc.

2) The forums would be full of "Nerf Stamblade" and "Nerf Stamden" threads, because these are the specs that give us the most trouble.

3) @Fengrush would main a Mag Sorc, because I know for damn sure that guy doesn't care about nothing except killing everything he sees as quickly as possible

At this point you and phoenix person are living memes.

According to your logic nobody is asking for stamplar and magblade nerfs because everybody is playing one. You heard it here 1st guys! Stamplar and magblade are fotm op classes. I have yet to see a nerf thread so it has be the case.

FLASH NEWS: Most people prefer a balanced game.

Have some self respect and admit for once that you're crutching on a broken class.

Iskiab

darkblue5 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Its also the other way around. I feel the ceiling that a sorc can reach in top tier gameplay is limited due to class limitations

In the highest MMR bg's on our server, I would rather fight a team of pet sorcs rather than well top tier stam players

The mag sorc is bound to get shredded with a well timed burst combos as they need to face tank all the damage and dont synergize well with their team mates.

There is no shimerring shield, wings or cloak to avoid certain death and no cp has limited dodge roll capabilities for mag classes. The only thing which would have saved you was the 30k non crittable shield stack which no longer exist after shield nerfs

shields became stronger after the change to allow crits/resistance. Issue it there are not enough crit resistance in the game to handle the now 1.8-1.9 modifers floating around cyro.

Sorcs also have bound aegis for not only 8% more max mag adding to their shields, but having access to the same block mitigation, if not superior, to that of DK/warden builds running SNB.

Oh, come now. No one uses Bound Aegis unless absolutely trolling. Not slotted, and definitely not activated.
And I think blocking still doesn't mitigate damage done to shields?

yea you are right bound ageis is doo doo if you already have a 10k shield at 2300 cost lol.
its what happens after the shields (assuming there is still dmg left).

Shields against a basic typical cyro target

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 10k shield = 3018 shield left.

Total Mit = 100% (shield protected fully)

Higher tooltip dmg (though not many above 25k unless glass cannon):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 11636
11636 - 10k shield = 1636 dmg
Total Mit = 95.7178% on shield+armor+3300 crit resists
with block:
1636 dmg * (1-50/100) = 818 dmg with basic block
Total Mit = 97.859%

But of course the shield is only subtracting an attack each time and the value carries over. 2x 15k attacks:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 3018 shield left (from the first example) = 3963 dmg
Then is blocked:
3963 * (1-50/100) = 1981

Total Mit = 91.358% in this case

97%+ mitigation without heavy resists nor major protection is OVER-PERFORMING.

And if you compare the shield back when they protected against crits but armor was after the shield (using the higher tooltip so you can see the comparison of dmg hitting a sorc):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed under old formula) * (1+(8)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50) = 12,689.79075
Then shield subtracts:
12,689 - 10000 = * armor (0.917) = 2465
2465 dmg
Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
with block:
2465 * (1-50/100) = 1232with basic block

Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
Total Mit with block included= 96.4821%

Conclusion:
shields over performing and need to adjust calculation and or sorc shield value to where they reduced dmg before mitigation.
93%/96% versus 95%/97% total mitigation.

I would recommend the following changes to shields calculated:
- decrease sorc shield so its below 10k to match other shields.
If you place something like a 5k shield in its place:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 8,223.70185‬
8,223.70185‬ - 4500 shield = 3,723‬ dmg

Total Mit = 85.1068 in this case which matches closer to relying on solely block mitigation and if you block it doesn't go into the mid 90%'s

- or adjust the formula entirely (might help with lag):

1st adjust the duration so you can cast it and it last like 18 seconds like it used to.
Then adjust the formula:
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed) * same vuln as live (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08) - 20000 (no battlespirit on shield values) = 18,205‬
18,205‬ *(.73) *(.91)*(no battlespirit mitigation allowed on attackers dmg) = 12,093.5815‬
Then armor and block are applied subtracts (non crit; crit and crit resistance can apply here if this dmg crits):
12,093.5815‬‬ * (0.917) = 11,089 dmg
Total Mit = 55.0321%
with block:
17180 * (1-50/100) = 8590 with basic block
Total Mit = 77.516%

Total Mit = 55.0321% without block
Total Mit = 77.516% with block

The second option would makes shield more like health and about protecting against burst instead of casting it like a buff and stacking so you ignore dmg; it also amkes it so classes with terrible 4k shields can get back the 10k shields they once had boosting their defense. First option is closer to the class audit they missed out on.

Block mitigation changes will need to be looked at as well. Only thing I can think of is removing the 0.5s cost for 1s and dropping the base mitigation to 25% from 50%. This way snb retains base block 50% and its only a slight nerf to DK pve tanks since we can assume the block mitigation stacking will be bringing them closer to pre-nerf levels:

Current :
15000 dmg * base block 0.50 = 7500
15000 dmg * base block 0.50* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100) = 15000 dmg * base block (0.50) * other block mitigation * (0.62‬) = 4,875‬
New changes:
15000 dmg * base block (.75) = 11,250
15000 dmg * base block (1-25/100)* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100)
15000 dmg * base block (.75) instead of (.50) * other block mitigation ((1-(38)/100) = 6,975

Gosh, those are a lot of numbers just to say for you: "nerf shields!".
You're forgetting two things, heals and dodges. Shields are supposed to keep your health untouched. Because if they wouldn't, you needed a lot more heals. Sure, nerf them. But then give us magicka Vigor. Shields are quite bursty, but stamina gets additional dodgerolls to protect health 100% in a burst. Also helps avoid CCs and debuffs.
That mitigation calculation isn't a good argument. Just say that you want shields nerfed.

Mag classes can dodge roll too. Not only that but mag classes and dodge roll and get slammed by AOE and other random stuff that goes through dodge.

The real culprit is resistance based mitigation over performing full stop. Block mitigation bonuses probably need to be reevaluated too... but the high resistance meta has existed for years before the block changes.

I see this said a lot but disagree. Maybe it’s different for sorcs with shields now, but it’s been this way ever since I started playing in Summerset.

The difference now is people are more open about builds and whatnot. Where before someone could have a great build and 1vX a bunch of new players, now new players have more information on specs and how to build for pvp.

I see how it can be frustrating if 1vX is your thing, but don’t agree it’s a problem that new players are spec’d just like more experienced players. It’s a bit of a double standard to complain only when everyone else starts playing specs like those that do well, so they can’t be taken advantage of.

Illuvatarr

Mag sorcs are fine. If anything they, and the other mag classes, need stronger defenses against bow users to put them on par with stamina classes. All of the stamina classes are still superior to mag sorcs in the hands of equally skilled players.

Illuvatarr

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Balance and magsorcs in the same sentence. You almost had me though, I'll give you a 1/10 for the effort. 😂😂😂

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

I am going to need to stand on a chair to get above the level of hyperbole fueled horse manure being shoveled and Shakespearean drama contained in the absolute bs lie in the above post.

MaxJrFTW

Illuvatarr wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Balance and magsorcs in the same sentence. You almost had me though, I'll give you a 1/10 for the effort. 😂😂😂

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

I am going to need to stand on a chair to stand above the level of hyperbole fueled horse manure and *** drama contained the absolute lie in the above post.

I've saw you in sotha plenty of times when i was pvping more often. You're not a good sorc.

When people say sorcs are op, they're not talking about the average joe.

My post was also not a lie in any way. I played close to 90 bgs with my sorc and i was averaging close 11 kills and 1 death per game. I haven't played that character in well over a month.

ShadowProc

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

I don't believe ANYBODY who says this. It just doesn't fit the mentality of the ESO player base that I've observed over the years. As far as I can tell, EVERYBODY is constantly searching for a better way of accomplishing their goals, and in PvP, the goal is to kill other players before they kill you.

I think if Mag Sorcs were really as overpowered as the forum "experts" say, you would see THREE things happen:

1) "Nerf Sorc" threads would disappear from the forums, because almost everyone would BE a Sorc.

2) The forums would be full of "Nerf Stamblade" and "Nerf Stamden" threads, because these are the specs that give us the most trouble.

3) @Fengrush would main a Mag Sorc, because I know for damn sure that guy doesn't care about nothing except killing everything he sees as quickly as possible

At this point you and phoenix person are living memes.

According to your logic nobody is asking for stamplar and magblade nerfs because everybody is playing one. You heard it here 1st guys! Stamplar and magblade are fotm op classes. I have yet to see a nerf thread so it has be the case.

FLASH NEWS: Most people prefer a balanced game.

Have some self respect and admit for once that you're crutching on a broken class.

Actually your the meme. You offering nothing constructive to back up your claim that is factual. Just an “I deleted because it was too dirty”.

I will call u out on that. No one deletes a class after the grind. Not since they upped character slots.

Is your main a nb per chance? Lol

Illuvatarr

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Balance and magsorcs in the same sentence. You almost had me though, I'll give you a 1/10 for the effort. 😂😂😂

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

I am going to need to stand on a chair to stand above the level of hyperbole fueled horse manure and *** drama contained the absolute lie in the above post.

I've saw you in sotha plenty of times when i was pvping more often. You're not a good sorc.

When people say sorcs are op, they're not talking about the average joe.

We can duel some time then if you like:) happy to learn from you.

Lord-Otto

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bad sorcs may be easy to kill, but a bad sorc is more dangerous than say a bad Stamplar because the latter require more experience and thought to play effectively.

Its also the other way around. I feel the ceiling that a sorc can reach in top tier gameplay is limited due to class limitations

In the highest MMR bg's on our server, I would rather fight a team of pet sorcs rather than well top tier stam players

The mag sorc is bound to get shredded with a well timed burst combos as they need to face tank all the damage and dont synergize well with their team mates.

There is no shimerring shield, wings or cloak to avoid certain death and no cp has limited dodge roll capabilities for mag classes. The only thing which would have saved you was the 30k non crittable shield stack which no longer exist after shield nerfs

shields became stronger after the change to allow crits/resistance. Issue it there are not enough crit resistance in the game to handle the now 1.8-1.9 modifers floating around cyro.

Sorcs also have bound aegis for not only 8% more max mag adding to their shields, but having access to the same block mitigation, if not superior, to that of DK/warden builds running SNB.

Oh, come now. No one uses Bound Aegis unless absolutely trolling. Not slotted, and definitely not activated.
And I think blocking still doesn't mitigate damage done to shields?

yea you are right bound ageis is doo doo if you already have a 10k shield at 2300 cost lol.
its what happens after the shields (assuming there is still dmg left).

Shields against a basic typical cyro target

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 10k shield = 3018 shield left.

Total Mit = 100% (shield protected fully)

Higher tooltip dmg (though not many above 25k unless glass cannon):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 11636
11636 - 10k shield = 1636 dmg
Total Mit = 95.7178% on shield+armor+3300 crit resists
with block:
1636 dmg * (1-50/100) = 818 dmg with basic block
Total Mit = 97.859%

But of course the shield is only subtracting an attack each time and the value carries over. 2x 15k attacks:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 6981
6981 - 3018 shield left (from the first example) = 3963 dmg
Then is blocked:
3963 * (1-50/100) = 1981

Total Mit = 91.358% in this case

97%+ mitigation without heavy resists nor major protection is OVER-PERFORMING.

And if you compare the shield back when they protected against crits but armor was after the shield (using the higher tooltip so you can see the comparison of dmg hitting a sorc):

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed under old formula) * (1+(8)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50) = 12,689.79075
Then shield subtracts:
12,689 - 10000 = * armor (0.917) = 2465
2465 dmg
Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
with block:
2465 * (1-50/100) = 1232with basic block

Total Mit = 93.548% on shield
Total Mit with block included= 96.4821%

Conclusion:
shields over performing and need to adjust calculation and or sorc shield value to where they reduced dmg before mitigation.
93%/96% versus 95%/97% total mitigation.

I would recommend the following changes to shields calculated:
- decrease sorc shield so its below 10k to match other shields.
If you place something like a 5k shield in its place:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21225 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21225 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 8,223.70185‬
8,223.70185‬ - 4500 shield = 3,723‬ dmg

Total Mit = 85.1068 in this case which matches closer to relying on solely block mitigation and if you block it doesn't go into the mid 90%'s

- or adjust the formula entirely (might help with lag):

1st adjust the duration so you can cast it and it last like 18 seconds like it used to.
Then adjust the formula:
25000 *(1-(0)/100)*(no crits allowed) * same vuln as live (1+(8-0)/100) = 35,375‬ * (1.08)
35,375‬ * (1.08) - 20000 (no battlespirit on shield values) = 18,205‬
18,205‬ *(.73) *(.91)*(no battlespirit mitigation allowed on attackers dmg) = 12,093.5815‬
Then armor and block are applied subtracts (non crit; crit and crit resistance can apply here if this dmg crits):
12,093.5815‬‬ * (0.917) = 11,089 dmg
Total Mit = 55.0321%
with block:
17180 * (1-50/100) = 8590 with basic block
Total Mit = 77.516%

Total Mit = 55.0321% without block
Total Mit = 77.516% with block

The second option would makes shield more like health and about protecting against burst instead of casting it like a buff and stacking so you ignore dmg; it also amkes it so classes with terrible 4k shields can get back the 10k shields they once had boosting their defense. First option is closer to the class audit they missed out on.

Block mitigation changes will need to be looked at as well. Only thing I can think of is removing the 0.5s cost for 1s and dropping the base mitigation to 25% from 50%. This way snb retains base block 50% and its only a slight nerf to DK pve tanks since we can assume the block mitigation stacking will be bringing them closer to pre-nerf levels:

Current :
15000 dmg * base block 0.50 = 7500
15000 dmg * base block 0.50* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100) = 15000 dmg * base block (0.50) * other block mitigation * (0.62‬) = 4,875‬
New changes:
15000 dmg * base block (.75) = 11,250
15000 dmg * base block (1-25/100)* other block mitigation ((1-(20snb + 10% DK+def Post 8)/100)
15000 dmg * base block (.75) instead of (.50) * other block mitigation ((1-(38)/100) = 6,975

Gosh, those are a lot of numbers just to say for you: "nerf shields!".
You're forgetting two things, heals and dodges. Shields are supposed to keep your health untouched. Because if they wouldn't, you needed a lot more heals. Sure, nerf them. But then give us magicka Vigor. Shields are quite bursty, but stamina gets additional dodgerolls to protect health 100% in a burst. Also helps avoid CCs and debuffs.
That mitigation calculation isn't a good argument. Just say that you want shields nerfed.

Dodge has cost increase mechanic and only can dodge direct instant cast. Shields do not.

You also can't compare shields to dodge because everyone can dodge roll, not everyone can shield unless they wear a certain armor.

Battlespirit and uncrit are great changes because it buffs lower shields while nerfing the strongest shield in the game.

Unless sorcs want to drop pets or speed lol

Stamina gets MORE dodgerolls than magicka, I said that. That's certainly an advantage.

That's fine because mag gets the shield access.

There's a way to nerf it 1v1 and make it better for versatile situations.

Doubt it. That was the idea behind the last rework already. Certain people were already licking their lips upon the thought of sorcs no longer wEarINg FuLl diVInes ANd tHreE daMAge SeTs. And... here we are, in full impen, with a defensive monster set. And those people still vent. If you can learn one thing from the forums of the last years, it's that people here will ALWAYS, ALWAYSALWAYSAAALLWAYYYS complain about sorcs, periodfullstopdot.
Just move your attention to the underperforming classes.

PhoenixGrey

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Balance and magsorcs in the same sentence. You almost had me though, I'll give you a 1/10 for the effort. 😂😂😂

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

What exactly did you accomplish in 2 weeks I would like to know ?

If you are a no cp player, did u actually reach high MMR bgs on our server?

Or you were satisfied with the potato farm and ready to pass judgements on the class.

MaxJrFTW

Illuvatarr wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Balance and magsorcs in the same sentence. You almost had me though, I'll give you a 1/10 for the effort. 😂😂😂

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

I am going to need to stand on a chair to stand above the level of hyperbole fueled horse manure and *** drama contained the absolute lie in the above post.

I've saw you in sotha plenty of times when i was pvping more often. You're not a good sorc.

When people say sorcs are op, they're not talking about the average joe.

We can duel some time then if you like:) happy to learn from you.

Been there, done that. You were running 2 pets, and kept resetting streaking away and LOSing behind rocks.

MaxJrFTW

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Balance and magsorcs in the same sentence. You almost had me though, I'll give you a 1/10 for the effort. 😂😂😂

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

What exactly did you accomplish in 2 weeks I would like to know ?

If you are a no cp player, did u actually reach high MMR bgs on our server?

Or you were satisfied with the potato farm and ready to pass judgements on the class.

Here's the thing. I was new to the class, so i was as much a potato as anyone else i was playing with.

You're also one of the weakest high mmr sorcs on pc na. Every time i've seen you in a game you've had more death than kills. That's quite an achievement on a magsorc.

Yet again, people aren't complaining about average sorcs. These threads are not directed at you.

thankyourat

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag sorcs are fine. If anything they, and the other mag classes, need stronger defenses against bow users to put them on par with stamina classes. All of the stamina classes are still superior to mag sorcs in the hands of equally skilled players.

That’s not true. There is very little any class can do to beat a magsorc in a 1v1. Some stamina builds may have a easier time dealing with them but overall they are still disadvantaged vs a magsorc. Sorc defenses are just too strong right now when boosted by resistances. So if you manage to get through the shields you still have to burst through 26k worth of resistances and 26k health before the sorc gets his burst heal from the matriarch. It’s just not going to happen against anyone that has decent experience at this game. Especially when you add that your burst combo will likely be interrupted due to the sorc LoSing around pets.

That’s just the defenses, the icing on the cake is the offense. The sorc has an all range toolkit with two abilities hitting harder than most ultimates in curse and frags with curse being completely unavoidable unless you have a class purge. Then you add in the dot from however many pets you are running giving you very easy to apply damage because most of it is fire and forget. No need to get into the mobility with streak and the sustain from dark exchange. I’m fine with sorcs having high damage and good mobility, but something has to be done with sorcs defensive. A class shouldn’t have the best mobility, the best damage mitigation in shield stanking and the highest burst damage. That’s just too op.

Nirnroot420

@MaxJrFTW

I get getting frustrated about a particular class or build that's wrecking you. Just learn from the mistakes and get better.
Templars, in particular, have been buffed this patch to handle magsorcs. The improvements to gap closers mean that a purifying/vamp bane/toppling charge/sweeps/crescent combo puts most magsorcs down (high or low MMR) in seconds. If they survivve it, block heal until their burst passes and do it again, but better this time.

Magsorcs are hit hard by CCs since shields are so essential to their survivability, and they obviously can't cast it while under CC. They also can't take sustained melee pressure and streaking away hits their resources while your gap closers are likely cheaper.

Calling magsorcs who disagree with you "average" or "weak" (especially in addressing @PhoenixGrey in these terms) betrays your saltiness.

Ragnaroek93

Complaining about shields in a meta in which defense is too strong across the board isn't fair. The sorc will most likely not beat a stamina brawler build either. The fight will most likely be a draw or end up with the sorc dieing to shieldbug or by doing a mistake. And if it's a draw then I'd think that sorc would have received more damage than caused to the opponent (speaking of a non pet build).

I wouldn't say that sorc has the best mitigation in the game either. They can't block shield damage, they don't have damage mitigation and they don't have healing modifiers either, so they don't really have much outside of their shields. Compare that to stamina classes: Vigor, Momentum, Lingering pots, Cauterize/Dark Cloak/etc, Mending. They also have great damage thanks to some sets. They also have great sustain with heavy attacks and Meditate (which gives another small hot and major protection on top of it). That's ok?

I think that there are issues with sorc but that's basically only the pet and harness magicka. I'd love to see some buffs to some other mag classes, some buffs to med armor and a rework to stamina "tanks".

grannas211

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Balance and magsorcs in the same sentence. You almost had me though, I'll give you a 1/10 for the effort. 😂😂😂

I made a magsorc and had to drop it within two weeks because i felt dirty playing that character.

What exactly did you accomplish in 2 weeks I would like to know ?

If you are a no cp player, did u actually reach high MMR bgs on our server?

Or you were satisfied with the potato farm and ready to pass judgements on the class.

Here's the thing. I was new to the class, so i was as much a potato as anyone else i was playing with.

You're also one of the weakest high mmr sorcs on pc na. Every time i've seen you in a game you've had more death than kills. That's quite an achievement on a magsorc.

Yet again, people aren't complaining about average sorcs. These threads are not directed at you.

Your hardass mentality is the true meme here. Jesus Christ kid.