MagNB - What is our advantage to leverage?

DomiNate4NB

I'm trying to understand what our differentiating advantage is over other classes. What works best? Destro/resto, 2h/resto, melee destro/resto? Trying all different combos and none seem to be enough. Primarily damage focused in a tank meta. Reaping all that I sow these days. Thoughts ?

kaithuzar

Maybe ult gen?
Generally the answer is stealth/cloak, but when everyone’s a tank, it’s only helpful from a “ok you’re fighting someone else & in execute range, I’ll engage now” standpoint.

Most people playing magblade are either using 2x dmg sets, or 3x infused spell dmg glyphs, & either going high penetration or proc sets.

Iskiab

Magblade advantage is mobility, escape and surprise.

Damage, burst and self healing you are uncompetitive with other classes. You will get crushed in a head to head fight against an equally competent and geared opponent.

Damagewise there are three strategies that do okay. First is full damage sets and ganking from cloak against unbuffed opponents. 2nd involves team play and skirmishing for burst: lotus fan into melee, sap spam to help aoe people down, port out... plus kill steal with impale. 3rd is more of a group role where you’re healing and doing damage.

Solo it is tough, not my thing, but against an aware good opponent I don’t see how you could win.

I’ve adapted by mixing healing and damage and find that style the most effective. Escape tools are more effective on a healer then dps, and magblades get a couple good healing abilities: Healthy Offering and Soul Siphon.

Ceejaae

Iskiab wrote: »

Magblade advantage is mobility, escape and surprise.

Damage, burst and self healing you are uncompetitive with other classes. You will get crushed in a head to head fight against an equally competent and geared opponent.

Damagewise there are three strategies that do okay. First is full damage sets and ganking from cloak against unbuffed opponents. 2nd involves team play and skirmishing for burst: lotus fan into melee, sap spam to help aoe people down, port out... plus kill steal with impale. 3rd is more of a group role where you’re healing and doing damage.

Solo it is tough, not my thing, but against an aware good opponent I don’t see how you could win.

I’ve adapted by mixing healing and damage and find that style the most effective. Escape tools are more effective on a healer then dps, and magblades get a couple good healing abilities: Healthy Offering and Soul Siphon.

Wait, you're saying a MagNB is incapable of defeating any of the other classes 1v1 assuming equal gear & skill?

Iskiab

Ceejaae wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Magblade advantage is mobility, escape and surprise.

Damage, burst and self healing you are uncompetitive with other classes. You will get crushed in a head to head fight against an equally competent and geared opponent.

Damagewise there are three strategies that do okay. First is full damage sets and ganking from cloak against unbuffed opponents. 2nd involves team play and skirmishing for burst: lotus fan into melee, sap spam to help aoe people down, port out... plus kill steal with impale. 3rd is more of a group role where you’re healing and doing damage.

Solo it is tough, not my thing, but against an aware good opponent I don’t see how you could win.

I’ve adapted by mixing healing and damage and find that style the most effective. Escape tools are more effective on a healer then dps, and magblades get a couple good healing abilities: Healthy Offering and Soul Siphon.

Wait, you're saying a MagNB is incapable of defeating any of the other classes 1v1 assuming equal gear & skill?

Maybe not every class, but some probably. I can’t see a magblade beating a magsorc for example in a duel with equal gear and skill level. No way.

Magblade’s damage is down for last patch, sorc’s is up. It’s early in the patch but that’s my impression yes.

There’s a reason there are more sorcs then ever in pvp.

Bazeric

You can sneak past NPCs and steal things quicker... I thought shelving mine after the minor vit nerf would stop ZOS from messing with mNB, but anything they touch to adjust stamblade trickles down as a nerf to magblade. Bloodmage used to be fun, you'd have to fight to stay alive, but this play style hasnt been viable for over a year now. RAT and defensive change to Assassins aren't really enough to do anything open world. Cloak spam will still annoy people who don't bother having a balanced Open World build.

Marginis

NBs have always been the best gankers, and I don't think that's changed. It may not be a ganker meta (never was a PVE after level 10 in the first place) but a lot of the mobility stuff and other utility abilities are still there, despite being undervalued.

I'm currently keeping up with my MagNB tank, who can do off-healing and has high damage for a tank. He won't win any duels anytime soon, but he offers amazing team utility in trials (read: people want me in their trials group despite me not being able to DPS, tank, or heal nearly as well as anyone with a halfway decent setup).

kaithuzar

Bazeric wrote: »

You can sneak past NPCs and steal things quicker... I thought shelving mine after the minor vit nerf would stop ZOS from messing with mNB, but anything they touch to adjust stamblade trickles down as a nerf to magblade. Bloodmage used to be fun, you'd have to fight to stay alive, but this play style hasnt been viable for over a year now. RAT and defensive change to Assassins aren't really enough to do anything open world. Cloak spam will still annoy people who don't bother having a balanced Open World build.

I disagree, but maybe it’s a playstyle thing.

WacArnold

You have two posts going IDK which one your looking at but,

I would say one advantage is having the ability to stay on offense longer than any other class. Using damage reduction along with mobility and re-positioning to avoid long periods of defense. As well as using HOTS to continue to apply pressure while healing.

Insco851

Our advantage is proc sets! Lol at least that’s how Zos has balanced them....

But no, I’d say the major advantage is high offensive time and the ability to reset. Major defile more so than before even after the cp nerf. And shade.... proper shade usage is paramount. (Aka don’t bother going into keeps....)

Iskiab

You guys think high offensive pressure? It’s been a while since I’ve tried it, but I think against a magsorc they’d pull the typical shield stack and set you up for burst. Half of what makes sorcs powerful is kiting and stacking shields while setting you up for a burst combo, especially when someone tries to be too aggressive.

I can’t see that strategy working well.

I’d think a better strategy would be to wear them down. Don’t let them sustain through harness magicka and wait until shields are down. I’m not a dueler but that’s their only weakness from what I can see.

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

You guys think high offensive pressure? It’s been a while since I’ve tried it, but I think against a magsorc they’d pull the typical shield stack and set you up for burst. Half of what makes sorcs powerful is kiting and stacking shields while setting you up for a burst combo, especially when someone tries to be too aggressive.

I can’t see that strategy working well.

I’d think a better strategy would be to wear them down. Don’t let them sustain through harness magicka and wait until shields are down. I’m not a dueler but that’s their only weakness from what I can see.

Magsorc kinda in its own realm. You’d be hard pressed finding any build that’s just gonna work them up and down.

Iskiab

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

You guys think high offensive pressure? It’s been a while since I’ve tried it, but I think against a magsorc they’d pull the typical shield stack and set you up for burst. Half of what makes sorcs powerful is kiting and stacking shields while setting you up for a burst combo, especially when someone tries to be too aggressive.

I can’t see that strategy working well.

I’d think a better strategy would be to wear them down. Don’t let them sustain through harness magicka and wait until shields are down. I’m not a dueler but that’s their only weakness from what I can see.

Magsorc kinda in its own realm. You’d be hard pressed finding any build that’s just gonna work them up and down.

You’re console aren’t you? Just wait...

DomiNate4NB

I do agree that we are boxes into a few playstyles that feels like we are playing at a disadvantage. I do enjoy brawling and focusing high priority targets but it seems I can't get as many kills as before. Been playing since console launch so animation cancelling and combos are tight. It feels like mNB is being left behind and the moat is getting bigger. Damn shame 😠

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

You guys think high offensive pressure? It’s been a while since I’ve tried it, but I think against a magsorc they’d pull the typical shield stack and set you up for burst. Half of what makes sorcs powerful is kiting and stacking shields while setting you up for a burst combo, especially when someone tries to be too aggressive.

I can’t see that strategy working well.

I’d think a better strategy would be to wear them down. Don’t let them sustain through harness magicka and wait until shields are down. I’m not a dueler but that’s their only weakness from what I can see.

Magsorc kinda in its own realm. You’d be hard pressed finding any build that’s just gonna work them up and down.

You’re console aren’t you? Just wait...

Yea but I’m saying magsorc even on console has already been hella op for the last patch regardless. (Remember when everyone was telling you they CLEARLY were the top spec recently? Maybe PC is catching up. Xbox NA been sorc fest for months)

Comparing the strategy that fits to most opponents is a better idea than to just magsorc which shouldn’t define how you attack more balanced specs.

No spec has an advantage on pet sorc in the current meta. It’s largely imbalanced.

Minno

A couple of things:
- Vulnerability + soul harvest. Requires your target to slot major protection to 100% remove due to the new info found on dmg mitigation.
TLDR; Vulnerabilities subtract from percentage mitigation and each vulnerability is now added with each other. So 20+8 = 28 and it turns major protection into 2% mitigation before being applied multiplicative in the rest of the equation.
- Your main burst spell also gives 50% more healing and 15% dmg mitigation.
- strife can no longer be reflected by wings; though is subject to 50% mitigation.
- crippling also no long reflected. Still a ranged immobilize.
- Phantasmal Escape is better version of RAT; gives you crit chance buffs and gives 25% AOE protection.
- dark cloak is not bad of a HOT and gives minor protection which subtracts minor vulnerability. Also major armor buffs.

Magblade, maybe the only mag spec that can roll heavy armor this patch.

Iskiab

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

You guys think high offensive pressure? It’s been a while since I’ve tried it, but I think against a magsorc they’d pull the typical shield stack and set you up for burst. Half of what makes sorcs powerful is kiting and stacking shields while setting you up for a burst combo, especially when someone tries to be too aggressive.

I can’t see that strategy working well.

I’d think a better strategy would be to wear them down. Don’t let them sustain through harness magicka and wait until shields are down. I’m not a dueler but that’s their only weakness from what I can see.

Magsorc kinda in its own realm. You’d be hard pressed finding any build that’s just gonna work them up and down.

You’re console aren’t you? Just wait...

Yea but I’m saying magsorc even on console has already been hella op for the last patch regardless. (Remember when everyone was telling you they CLEARLY were the top spec recently? Maybe PC is catching up. Xbox NA been sorc fest for months)

Comparing the strategy that fits to most opponents is a better idea than to just magsorc which shouldn’t define how you attack more balanced specs.

No spec has an advantage on pet sorc in the current meta. It’s largely imbalanced.

Oh you misunderstood. Sorcs were popular before Elys too on PC-NA. The difference was teams of 3 sorcs plus a healer were losing in BGs so I disagreed they were more powerful then stamwardens.

With Elys minor force from RAT is common, but if you’re the highest burst class (sorcs) then you’re benefiting more from it? DK reflections are gone so I’m not seeing as many DKs. Plus major expedition is everywhere so ranged have a lot easier time kiting.

So prior to the patch I said Stamwarden > Magsorcs because certain cheesy combos like leash
into shalks were powerful. Now sorcs for whatever reason seem to have gained the most this patch and have pulled ahead to become the clearly strongest class.... from what I’ve seen, I don’t spam BGs every day but that was my sense from the ones I did.

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

You guys think high offensive pressure? It’s been a while since I’ve tried it, but I think against a magsorc they’d pull the typical shield stack and set you up for burst. Half of what makes sorcs powerful is kiting and stacking shields while setting you up for a burst combo, especially when someone tries to be too aggressive.

I can’t see that strategy working well.

I’d think a better strategy would be to wear them down. Don’t let them sustain through harness magicka and wait until shields are down. I’m not a dueler but that’s their only weakness from what I can see.

Magsorc kinda in its own realm. You’d be hard pressed finding any build that’s just gonna work them up and down.

You’re console aren’t you? Just wait...

Yea but I’m saying magsorc even on console has already been hella op for the last patch regardless. (Remember when everyone was telling you they CLEARLY were the top spec recently? Maybe PC is catching up. Xbox NA been sorc fest for months)

Comparing the strategy that fits to most opponents is a better idea than to just magsorc which shouldn’t define how you attack more balanced specs.

No spec has an advantage on pet sorc in the current meta. It’s largely imbalanced.

Oh you misunderstood. Sorcs were popular before Elys too on PC-NA. The difference was teams of 3 sorcs plus a healer were losing in BGs so I disagreed they were more powerful then stamwardens.

With Elys minor force from RAT is common, but if you’re the highest burst class (sorcs) then you’re benefiting more from it? DK reflections are gone so I’m not seeing as many DKs. Plus major expedition is everywhere so ranged have a lot easier time kiting.

So prior to the patch I said Stamwarden > Magsorcs because certain cheesy combos like leash
into shalks were powerful. Now sorcs for whatever reason seem to have gained the most this patch and have pulled ahead to become the clearly strongest class.... from what I’ve seen, I don’t spam BGs every day but that was my sense from the ones I did.

Probably the DK mains moving to sorc in BGs. Growing population.

I also don’t know where sorc would actually slot RAT and benefit the most from it. Typically a low crit chance spec for the most part. I can def see it being really strong tho.

Waffennacht

Sorc is top dog Imo; meaning you'll be hard pressed to compare to.

Cloak and shades are huge.
Burst damage is good
Has an execute

You can make something work from those alone

Bazeric

kaithuzar wrote: »

Bazeric wrote: »

You can sneak past NPCs and steal things quicker... I thought shelving mine after the minor vit nerf would stop ZOS from messing with mNB, but anything they touch to adjust stamblade trickles down as a nerf to magblade. Bloodmage used to be fun, you'd have to fight to stay alive, but this play style hasnt been viable for over a year now. RAT and defensive change to Assassins aren't really enough to do anything open world. Cloak spam will still annoy people who don't bother having a balanced Open World build.

I disagree, but maybe it’s a playstyle thing.

Disagree with the effectiveness of mNB open world outside of cloak spam? or that mNB is fun?

I think this patch overall didn't add much to mNB to make it better open world. They're still not as threatening as they need to be since their HoT power is constantly nerfed. That's what I mean when I mention bloodmage, it was a playstyle where keeping up offense would sustain healing through HoTs, but if you were out-pressured you'd be forced into shield of preference+Cloak+Repostioning, and if the opponents knew how to counter that you'd likely lose. The power creep of mitigation has also highly contributed a loss of effectiveness in this area. (This also reminds me when I was glutton for choice on what skills and style I wanted to approach a day with. *nostalgic sadface*)

As for the skills I mentioned, the mitigation on AW is okay but the conditions are still very clunky primetime. RATS vs Blur would depend on playstyle, I've used Blur in most my builds (even pre evasion change) but I think it's better suited for close combat and RATs is better for kiting and it has felt like close combat has been a struggle for mNB for awhile now. Overall all the work put in to a mNB is high risk low reward and there are various other classes and playstyles that are more rewarding for less work.

As for fun, it hasn't really been fun for me since the minor vit loss (which was my last of many straws to fall) RolliPolli sustain has only increased with power creep, and anyone who isn't a rollipolli has so much mitigation to help survive zergs, and again power creep, that we can't sustain pressure with average damage and absolute trash healing.

Still great for noob stomping from cloak, but any class can noob stomp.

Also Caluurions/Element Weapon gank seems viable, but I prefered ganking as glass cannon not proctard, but that's just a personal preference and so people would get a break from more effective stamblade gankers.

HowlKimchi

We are the most slippery class with lethal burst, if a bit backloaded. I love it.

SkysOutThizeOut

Apparently maw of the infernal with your 50% snare ability is op.

Insco851

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

Apparently maw of the infernal with your 50% snare ability is op.

Lol that a new BGs kit? @Iskiab ???

Van_Winkle

Mana Nb purpose is meet in Cyro good tanky person and die/run from it.

fred4

WacArnold wrote: »

You have two posts going IDK which one your looking at but,

I would say one advantage is having the ability to stay on offense longer than any other class. Using damage reduction along with mobility and re-positioning to avoid long periods of defense. As well as using HOTS to continue to apply pressure while healing.

This could be a quote from an old Kena video. He argued that magblades were, then, best positioned to stay on offense, due to their continuos healing power. Nothing could be further from the truth today.

Chelo

Iskiab wrote: »

Ceejaae wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Magblade advantage is mobility, escape and surprise.

Damage, burst and self healing you are uncompetitive with other classes. You will get crushed in a head to head fight against an equally competent and geared opponent.

Damagewise there are three strategies that do okay. First is full damage sets and ganking from cloak against unbuffed opponents. 2nd involves team play and skirmishing for burst: lotus fan into melee, sap spam to help aoe people down, port out... plus kill steal with impale. 3rd is more of a group role where you’re healing and doing damage.

Solo it is tough, not my thing, but against an aware good opponent I don’t see how you could win.

I’ve adapted by mixing healing and damage and find that style the most effective. Escape tools are more effective on a healer then dps, and magblades get a couple good healing abilities: Healthy Offering and Soul Siphon.

Wait, you're saying a MagNB is incapable of defeating any of the other classes 1v1 assuming equal gear & skill?

Maybe not every class, but some probably. I can’t see a magblade beating a magsorc for example in a duel with equal gear and skill level. No way.

Magblade’s damage is down for last patch, sorc’s is up. It’s early in the patch but that’s my impression yes.

There’s a reason there are more sorcs then ever in pvp.

Wanna duel me? 😜

Some of the answers in this post are hilarious hahaha 🤣

Tommy_The_Gun

I was gonna say "cloak"... but then again every other class can use invisibility potions with infused potion cool-down jewellery. Fear ? well, no every one can be WW or use Trapping Webs...

I dare to say: None.

thankyourat

The leverage of magblade is that it's a very thought provoking class with very engaging gameplay. The class doesn't necessarily do anything better than other classes but the class requires more user input than every other class and that's where I think the magblade leverage is. It's also just a fun interesting class

Insco851

thankyourat wrote: »

The leverage of magblade is that it's a very thought provoking class with very engaging gameplay. The class doesn't necessarily do anything better than other classes but the class requires more user input than every other class and that's where I think the magblade leverage is. It's also just a fun interesting class

You mean curse>flame reach spam>Frag>lolz isn’t engaging?

fred4

DomiNate4NB wrote: »

I'm trying to understand what our differentiating advantage is over other classes. What works best? Destro/resto, 2h/resto, melee destro/resto? Trying all different combos and none seem to be enough. Primarily damage focused in a tank meta. Reaping all that I sow these days. Thoughts ?

Permanent or high cloak uptime has some unique consequences. Where other classes like to LoS, I find magblade plays best in open spaces, because other players cannot predict your position. On the other hand some of the narrow corridors in IC are the worst, because a streaking sorc will hunt you down with 100% certainty.

Perma-cloaking means you can loiter on resources, where a crouched player would immediately be detected by NPCs. By extension you can loiter inside turned keeps. One of my favorite things to do, lately, is to run to the top floor in cloak as soon as the inner keep door is open, then kill any oilers or archers on top. On one occasion I rezzed half our group, who had died in that location, and we almost managed to retake the keep from the inside. Scouting and placing / destroying forward camps is another activity maglade is well suited for.

Speed has a high synergy with the melee magblade playstyle. High speed increases the likelihood that you can successfully get back into cloak and reset a fight. It also allows you to keep up with dodge rolling opponents. If you are melee ganking someone, it helps with making your attacks stick.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Generally the answer is stealth/cloak, but when everyone’s a tank, it’s only helpful from a “ok you’re fighting someone else & in execute range, I’ll engage now” standpoint.

I'll admit that is how magblade often works. It doesn't have to be strictly execute range, though. The parameters are much broader. Mostly it's a question of getting a clear shot and not being in front of the target's mates and immediately getting Xv1d yourself. Yes, ganking someone who is already under pressure generates a lot of AP for me, but I will speculatively attack anyone who crosses my path.

I find magblade very strong for open world, CP or no CP. I don't play BGs and I don't duel these days. I play a destro / resto Caluu + Zaan ganker, all sustain and speed. Healing and tankiness are very bad on this spec. I actively defend with shields, resto ult and fear, but I cannot sustain that defense, nor is it strong enough to stay on attack against competent players. I am overall very dependent on cloak.

I do not mean to say I can kill everyone. Far from it. I guess it depends what your expectations are. What I'm saying is that magblade is strong situationally and that opening from cloak remains a huge advantage. If you can kill your typically tanky small-scaler stam DK or stamden with your solo open world build, then all the power to you. I'm guessing maybe you are a pet sorc. I have resigned myself to the fact that I can't. Everyone compromises in open world. For many that means building tanky, so tanky in fact, that they usually run in small groups, otherwise they wouldn't kill anything either. For me it means high sustain and high speed. I rate magblade as better than stamsorc in that regard and will outrun the great majority of them in cloak. Instead of rolling, you shield, fear, RAT and cloak, getting the Concealed speed buff.

fred4

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I was gonna say "cloak"... but then again every other class can use invisibility potions with infused potion cool-down jewellery.

That is laughable considering how many things uncloak you, not least in flight projectiles. While potions have strategic value, especially for streaking sorcs, they in no way compare to the usability of cloak.