The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs

PhoenixGrey

mursie wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I honestly would not mind giving all classes back their identity. Bring back dynamic ultigen as well.

This game used to be so much fun before and it keeps going backwards patch after patch.

The warden class is absolutely destroyed in the name of balance.
necro is another one which is useless. The nerf train never stops does it?

Koensol wrote: »

Yea I gathered as much when reading your posts. You want easy mode. Because that's what the game was back then. Easy mode and insanely imbalanced.

Also warden destroyed? Omegalul. Warden is insanely strong in group play. Not on level of magsorc for solo, sure. But not bad at it by any means, in case of stamden that is. Magden does have problems in solo play, but this is mostly because they lack mobility, just like DK, templar and necro. Biggest problems of warden overall are in 1v1. But absolutely destroyed? Please..

sad to say - but phoenix is an absolute nut job. these posts solidify that. warden and magsorc are the "woe is me" dumpster classes per his posts? are you kidding me? absolutely delusional.

Talking about easy mode when we are in a tank meta with insane health lol. Majority of the players adopting similar playstyles. What does that tell you huh ? Where is class diversity and where is class identity ?

Mag sorc itself for instance has become insanely easy to play after resists stacking on shields. All you need is your buddy to provide you resists and you can forget your defensive side of your game.
Nightblade had become as tanky as dk. What's up with that seriously?

4+ years trying to balance the game but carry on. You guys are doing an amazing job !

Iskiab

Trian94 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

@Iskiab What I'm saying isn't affecting one class only and imo is the main thing that causes magsorc and other mag classes to hit stupid strong from my stand point. It's not normal to be at 26k + resistances or at the cap and be hit by 5-6k non crit curse from a non pet magsorcs in no cp, or an assassin's will of the same dmg unless people wear spinner's and sharpened weapon which is kind of unlikely unless 90% of sorcs are wearing these stuff. Apart from the stuff I mention in the previous comment.

Yea, 5k frag is pretty normal.

One thing though. I only play no-CP, but people say no-CP favours sorcs and CP stamina classes? If light armour was the issue it would be the other way around.

From CPs people get a flat stat boost to all 3 stats but nothing for weapon or spell damage. If light armour was the issue sorcs in these type of builds would be even more powerful in CP pvp.

I think the issue’s more simple. Most stamina only have vigor which isn’t enough self healing unless you’re wearing heavy for the +healing modifiers. That plus cc breaking’s too costly in no-CP so melee have a rough time.

When people talk about the strongest pvp classes it’s magsorcs, stamdks and stamwarden. Some classes can heal themselves more efficiently then others - bam, they’re stronger. Mitigation and damage you can gear for, self healing you can’t.

No it's not normal at cap resistances. I play no cp almost exclusively and my point is that especially in no cp magicka chars have insanely high magicka and every other stat at a decent level without sacrificing much if anything at all. That's a balance issue no doubt

Why would magica chars have more stats than stamina chars though if they use tristat drink (ignoring bloody mara here).
You can use bone pirate spriggan and have the same stam to work with as a mag char using bright throat and spinner when both use tripple drink?

Because it's not viable. Even if you have 36k stamina in no cp you can't afford to have low weapon damage which you will be having after you realize your sustain isn't enough and dump physical harm glyphs for mag and/or stam regen depending on your class, let alone mundus stone. Your heals will be bad cause medium armour and people will go though your resistances even if you might run protective or bloodspawn. Oh and also there's bleeds and over times in general.
I'm in 5 heavy sitting at 26k + resistances without bloodspawn proc and the meta sorc builds (and magicka build to an extent ) right now hit hard af.

Well if it’s not viable then that’s an issue in itself.

I think changing bone shield somehow so max stam 7m builds have more survivability is an amazing idea. I’m a genius.

Only downside is stam would play more like mag with harness, but it’s exactly what squishy stamina classes need to be competitive. Plus have to figure out how not to buff Stamblades with it.

Koensol

Trian94 wrote: »

@Koensol my dude idk how people cant see the problem.

Tbh isn't only magsorcs. Any class can run bright throat and spring loaded infusion or bloody mara with another magicka set. You can max out the stat (which is a resource pool) that affects magicka DMG the most while having insane amount of hp and stam cause of tristat drink AND benefitting from regen, spell crit and penetration just by wearing light armour. Furthermore you don't need spell dmg that much so mag characters can play recovery glyphs without sacrificing much because they're rocking 40k magicka.

Meanwhile stam character's struggle to get more than 27k stam and have a strong build with high enough weapon damage sustain and not even a decent amount of critical

Mind that this is only the no cp standpoint.

Especially in no cp this is a problem, since heals barely seem to scale from max stats. Vigor ticks will not see as drastic of an increase in value compared to how shields scale in size with magicka. Or at least thats how it feels for me in no cp. On top of that the penetration bonus from light armor adds so much damage. You can build really tanky in light armor, slot ele drain, use a sharpened weapon and you will be close to 13k pen without even trying.

On the other hand though, stamina weapons offer more weapon damage and there are more sets for stamina that offer a big weapon damage increase.

My problem in general with sorc though, is the amount of damage they currently do, while not really sacrificing a lot of the effectiveness of their main defensive tool. The shield changes changed the way you have to build, needing more resistance and health. But at the same time frags reveived a damage buff and sorc got the amplitude passive offering free extra damage with 100% uptime and having access to an improved bloody mara drink. On top of that they have unmatched mobility, which makes it very hard to catch them, and they can do all of their burst at full range. A class which can reach their full damage potential at range shouldn't just be able to facetank people in melee with 16-20k worth of shields.

I had the same problem last patch with magdks who dominated in melee, while easily countering any ranged projectile based class with wings. There need to be certain weaknesses to a playstyle to make sure people can be countered. And currently magsorc just doesn't have any glaring weakness compared to most other classes. Or at least it doesn't prevent them to perform at peak level.

butterrum222

I think reworking pets and making them more like Necro pets will help some of the toxic gameplay. Also making matriarch only heal and tormenter only damage will help too. Curse should be reworked as a dot for less burst in pvp but more overall dps in pve

Sharee

butterrum222 wrote: »

I think reworking pets and making them more like Necro pets will help some of the toxic gameplay. Also making matriarch only heal and tormenter only damage will help too. Curse should be reworked as a dot for less burst in pvp but more overall dps in pve

Rework curse into a projectile that travels at walking speed and can be rooted, stunned, or killed before reaching target, assuming it did not get lost along the way.

I mean, if we are going to make sorc more like necro, might as well go all the way

Insco851

Sharee wrote: »

butterrum222 wrote: »

I think reworking pets and making them more like Necro pets will help some of the toxic gameplay. Also making matriarch only heal and tormenter only damage will help too. Curse should be reworked as a dot for less burst in pvp but more overall dps in pve

Rework curse into a projectile that travels at walking speed and can be rooted, stunned, or killed before reaching target, assuming it did not get lost along the way.

I mean, if we are going to make sorc more like necro, might as well go all the way

The sorc exodus might kill the game LOL

Seraphayel

I really don’t think Stamina is as weak in No CP as some try to make them look like. Nevertheless, compared to most other MagDPS Sorcerers offer too much of everything. That’s not necessarily bad but when compared to other classes / builds it’s too much. Twilight might be one of the issues.

butterrum222

Reworking curse into a projectile is a good idea.

bardx86

butterrum222 wrote: »

Reworking curse into a projectile is a good idea.

Terrible Idea, sorcs skills are already to slow in the current meta.

bardx86

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Necro+Alfiq lands somewhere around 15k I was told. Obviously need a pet for necro or shadowrend

6.5 28k magicka 24k health

This! A 6.5K is insufficient in BG's under the current meta. I don't run pets and I shouldn't have to be competitive. Petless Sorcs are in a bad spot as the sorc defensive tool kit sucks. I wish they would just nerf the *** out of pets and give use a real heal and bump harden ward a bit in BG's.

L2p issue. People don't like honesty, but that's clearly the problem here.

Ya that's it, very constructive.

Apparently spreading misinformation like "non pet magsorcs are hot garbage" is constructive. You're a hypocrite.

Touche'

bardx86

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I honestly would not mind giving all classes back their identity. Bring back dynamic ultigen as well.

This game used to be so much fun before and it keeps going backwards patch after patch.

The warden class is absolutely destroyed in the name of balance.
necro is another one which is useless. The nerf train never stops does it?

Koensol wrote: »

Yea I gathered as much when reading your posts. You want easy mode. Because that's what the game was back then. Easy mode and insanely imbalanced.

Also warden destroyed? Omegalul. Warden is insanely strong in group play. Not on level of magsorc for solo, sure. But not bad at it by any means, in case of stamden that is. Magden does have problems in solo play, but this is mostly because they lack mobility, just like DK, templar and necro. Biggest problems of warden overall are in 1v1. But absolutely destroyed? Please..

sad to say - but phoenix is an absolute nut job. these posts solidify that. warden and magsorc are the "woe is me" dumpster classes per his posts? are you kidding me? absolutely delusional.

Talking about easy mode when we are in a tank meta with insane health lol. Majority of the players adopting similar playstyles. What does that tell you huh ? Where is class diversity and where is class identity ?

Mag sorc itself for instance has become insanely easy to play after resists stacking on shields. All you need is your buddy to provide you resists and you can forget your defensive side of your game.
Nightblade had become as tanky as dk. What's up with that seriously?

4+ years trying to balance the game but carry on. You guys are doing an amazing job !

So you need a buddy to help you to be viable. Seems legit.

Iskiab

This thread has devolved into a nerf everything thread. I still stand by my opinion from earlier, sorc needs a tweak and nothing more. If some or all of these suggestions were to be done it’d kill the class, I think the execute is a touch strong, that’s it.

ccmedaddy

butterrum222 wrote: »

Reworking curse into a projectile is a good idea.

It really isn't. If anything it should be made blockable.

PhoenixGrey

bardx86 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I honestly would not mind giving all classes back their identity. Bring back dynamic ultigen as well.

This game used to be so much fun before and it keeps going backwards patch after patch.

The warden class is absolutely destroyed in the name of balance.
necro is another one which is useless. The nerf train never stops does it?

Koensol wrote: »

Yea I gathered as much when reading your posts. You want easy mode. Because that's what the game was back then. Easy mode and insanely imbalanced.

Also warden destroyed? Omegalul. Warden is insanely strong in group play. Not on level of magsorc for solo, sure. But not bad at it by any means, in case of stamden that is. Magden does have problems in solo play, but this is mostly because they lack mobility, just like DK, templar and necro. Biggest problems of warden overall are in 1v1. But absolutely destroyed? Please..

sad to say - but phoenix is an absolute nut job. these posts solidify that. warden and magsorc are the "woe is me" dumpster classes per his posts? are you kidding me? absolutely delusional.

Talking about easy mode when we are in a tank meta with insane health lol. Majority of the players adopting similar playstyles. What does that tell you huh ? Where is class diversity and where is class identity ?

Mag sorc itself for instance has become insanely easy to play after resists stacking on shields. All you need is your buddy to provide you resists and you can forget your defensive side of your game.
Nightblade had become as tanky as dk. What's up with that seriously?

4+ years trying to balance the game but carry on. You guys are doing an amazing job !

So you need a buddy to help you to be viable. Seems legit.

Lol! OP thinks the game right now is easy mode compared to what it was before.

I gave an example of recent braindead changes due to which it's harder to kill sorcs due to pocket healer providing resists. Seems like you missed my point if u think I like these changes

Seraphayel

butterrum222 wrote: »

Reworking curse into a projectile is a good idea.

Blast Bones, Cliffracers, Dark Flare, Focus say hi.

oxygen_thief

Koensol wrote: »

You can build really tanky in light armor, slot ele drain, use a sharpened weapon and you will be close to 13k pen without even trying.

On the other hand though, stamina weapons offer more weapon damage and there are more sets for stamina that offer a big weapon damage increase.

what about maul passives and lover mundus?

Koensol

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

You can build really tanky in light armor, slot ele drain, use a sharpened weapon and you will be close to 13k pen without even trying.

On the other hand though, stamina weapons offer more weapon damage and there are more sets for stamina that offer a big weapon damage increase.

what about maul passives and lover mundus?

Maul? Sure. Lover mundus as stam? Lol you actually want your vigor ticks to be more than 1k each you know

Trian94

Iskiab wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

@Iskiab What I'm saying isn't affecting one class only and imo is the main thing that causes magsorc and other mag classes to hit stupid strong from my stand point. It's not normal to be at 26k + resistances or at the cap and be hit by 5-6k non crit curse from a non pet magsorcs in no cp, or an assassin's will of the same dmg unless people wear spinner's and sharpened weapon which is kind of unlikely unless 90% of sorcs are wearing these stuff. Apart from the stuff I mention in the previous comment.

Yea, 5k frag is pretty normal.

One thing though. I only play no-CP, but people say no-CP favours sorcs and CP stamina classes? If light armour was the issue it would be the other way around.

From CPs people get a flat stat boost to all 3 stats but nothing for weapon or spell damage. If light armour was the issue sorcs in these type of builds would be even more powerful in CP pvp.

I think the issue’s more simple. Most stamina only have vigor which isn’t enough self healing unless you’re wearing heavy for the +healing modifiers. That plus cc breaking’s too costly in no-CP so melee have a rough time.

When people talk about the strongest pvp classes it’s magsorcs, stamdks and stamwarden. Some classes can heal themselves more efficiently then others - bam, they’re stronger. Mitigation and damage you can gear for, self healing you can’t.

No it's not normal at cap resistances. I play no cp almost exclusively and my point is that especially in no cp magicka chars have insanely high magicka and every other stat at a decent level without sacrificing much if anything at all. That's a balance issue no doubt

Why would magica chars have more stats than stamina chars though if they use tristat drink (ignoring bloody mara here).
You can use bone pirate spriggan and have the same stam to work with as a mag char using bright throat and spinner when both use tripple drink?

Because it's not viable. Even if you have 36k stamina in no cp you can't afford to have low weapon damage which you will be having after you realize your sustain isn't enough and dump physical harm glyphs for mag and/or stam regen depending on your class, let alone mundus stone. Your heals will be bad cause medium armour and people will go though your resistances even if you might run protective or bloodspawn. Oh and also there's bleeds and over times in general.
I'm in 5 heavy sitting at 26k + resistances without bloodspawn proc and the meta sorc builds (and magicka build to an extent ) right now hit hard af.

Well if it’s not viable then that’s an issue in itself.

I think changing bone shield somehow so max stam 7m builds have more survivability is an amazing idea. I’m a genius.

Only downside is stam would play more like mag with harness, but it’s exactly what squishy stamina classes need to be competitive. Plus have to figure out how not to buff Stamblades with it.

No it's not a problem in itself. If stam can't build for 1 stat and have every other at a decent level with a huge DMG output and magicka can, that's a balance problem.

Rianai

But magicka can't do that. Even more so in noCP, where stacking max resources is less efficient compared to CP PvP. The only situation where stacking max magicka + Harness can be deemed op is 1vs1 against other magicka builds. Shields (especially when it is Harness alone) scale badly in outnumbered situations and those build will run into sustain issues against stam builds unless you drop your spell dmg to abyssal levels, in which case the dmg will suffer.

FearlessOne_2014

Rianai wrote: »

But magicka can't do that. Even more so in noCP, where stacking max resources is less efficient compared to CP PvP. The only situation where stacking max magicka + Harness can be deemed op is 1vs1 against other magicka builds. Shields (especially when it is Harness alone) scale badly in outnumbered situations and those build will inevitably run into sustain issues against stam builds.

Nearly 2 years of Stamina Domination and people still crying about the only Mag Spec that can challenge the Stamina Domination META. Mmmmh, something smells fishy to me.

If anything all the rest of the Mag Specs should be boosted upto MagSorc level. So the other Mag Specs can also challenge the 2 years of Stamina Domination.

All the proof people need is to look at what all of the strong Streamers and Youtubers are normally using. STAMINA BUILDS or STAMBLADES, less than a hand fulll of them use any Mag Spec builds to include MagSorc. Yet people feel MagSorc needs to be nerfed in a again Stamina Domination META that going on 2 years strong.

No wonder ZOS ignore these players. If MagSorc was soo overpowered as you guys claim it is. Than why are nearly all of the streamers and youtubers that are doing it as a lively hood. Are showing off Killing whole zergs of players on Stamblades and Stamina Specs rather than MagSorc? Because you guys are idiots that need to L2P. And MagSorc is not as strong as those builds that make those Streamers and Youtubers their money.

CHECK and MATE! Take the scrubs who can't kill MagSorc away!

Trian94

@Rianai my dude, correct me if I'm wrong, but magicka characters (some less than others) can run bright throat and loaded infusion play around with jewelry glyphs and sit at 2.5k-3k spell dmg with over 34k magicka and around 1.7k - 2k mag recovery and literally their hp and stam is at very fine values. Their crit is nice, penetration is sold and as well. Just like that. It's literally no brainer. It may be harder for non magsorcs to build that way I won't deny that. But I can't deny the fact that it's overpowered. Cptomar told me he doesn't run major sorcery on his magsorc and he still hits mad hard. FFS.

On the magsorc topic in general: Magsorc has NEVER been out of meta or weak despite the nerfs. People just bitching cause it went from the high heavens down to earth. And btw I'm stamsorc main, haven't seen a good day ever since clockwork city but I'm not calling for nerfs on everything I don't fancy, unlike most people on the forums. I'll keep calling out the op stuff tho.

Iskiab

Trian94 wrote: »

@Rianai my dude, correct me if I'm wrong, but magicka characters (some less than others) can run bright throat and loaded infusion play around with jewelry glyphs and sit at 2.5k-3k spell dmg with over 34k magicka and around 1.7k - 2k mag recovery and literally their hp and stam is at very fine values. Their crit is nice, penetration is sold and as well. Just like that. It's literally no brainer. It may be harder for non magsorcs to build that way I won't deny that. But I can't deny the fact that it's overpowered. Cptomar told me he doesn't run major sorcery on his magsorc and he still hits mad hard. FFS.

On the magsorc topic in general: Magsorc has NEVER been out of meta or weak despite the nerfs. People just bitching cause it went from the high heavens down to earth. And btw I'm stamsorc main, haven't seen a good day ever since clockwork city but I'm not calling for nerfs on everything I don't fancy, unlike most people on the forums. I'll keep calling out the op stuff tho.

In no-CP this isn’t true. If people are wearing the all magicka sets their sp is likely at the spell damage from their 2 handed weapon plus 20% from major sorcery.

If there’s an issue with sorcs it’s not gear related. If it was magnecro wouldn’t be horrible.

Go play a magcro with the same gear and let me know if you still think the gear’s OP.

Trian94

Iskiab wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

@Rianai my dude, correct me if I'm wrong, but magicka characters (some less than others) can run bright throat and loaded infusion play around with jewelry glyphs and sit at 2.5k-3k spell dmg with over 34k magicka and around 1.7k - 2k mag recovery and literally their hp and stam is at very fine values. Their crit is nice, penetration is sold and as well. Just like that. It's literally no brainer. It may be harder for non magsorcs to build that way I won't deny that. But I can't deny the fact that it's overpowered. Cptomar told me he doesn't run major sorcery on his magsorc and he still hits mad hard. FFS.

On the magsorc topic in general: Magsorc has NEVER been out of meta or weak despite the nerfs. People just bitching cause it went from the high heavens down to earth. And btw I'm stamsorc main, haven't seen a good day ever since clockwork city but I'm not calling for nerfs on everything I don't fancy, unlike most people on the forums. I'll keep calling out the op stuff tho.

In no-CP this isn’t true. If people are wearing the all magicka sets their sp is likely at the spell damage from their 2 handed weapon plus 20% from major sorcery.

If there’s an issue with sorcs it’s not gear related. If it was magnecro wouldn’t be horrible.

Go play a magcro with the same gear and let me know if you still think the gear’s OP.

Necro can't work anyway cause it's broken lmao. Drunkbones can't connect lul

Waffennacht

Trian94 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

@Rianai my dude, correct me if I'm wrong, but magicka characters (some less than others) can run bright throat and loaded infusion play around with jewelry glyphs and sit at 2.5k-3k spell dmg with over 34k magicka and around 1.7k - 2k mag recovery and literally their hp and stam is at very fine values. Their crit is nice, penetration is sold and as well. Just like that. It's literally no brainer. It may be harder for non magsorcs to build that way I won't deny that. But I can't deny the fact that it's overpowered. Cptomar told me he doesn't run major sorcery on his magsorc and he still hits mad hard. FFS.

On the magsorc topic in general: Magsorc has NEVER been out of meta or weak despite the nerfs. People just bitching cause it went from the high heavens down to earth. And btw I'm stamsorc main, haven't seen a good day ever since clockwork city but I'm not calling for nerfs on everything I don't fancy, unlike most people on the forums. I'll keep calling out the op stuff tho.

In no-CP this isn’t true. If people are wearing the all magicka sets their sp is likely at the spell damage from their 2 handed weapon plus 20% from major sorcery.

If there’s an issue with sorcs it’s not gear related. If it was magnecro wouldn’t be horrible.

Go play a magcro with the same gear and let me know if you still think the gear’s OP.

Necro can't work anyway cause it's broken lmao. Drunkbones can't connect lul

Well mag necro, Stam necro isn't top tier, but can definitely play way better (and way more options) than mag necro.

Magnecro = the ONLY build I've seen is bright throat + necro + pirate/defensive helm

And even then.... I'm dubious about it's proficiency.

At least Stam necro can run the 7th/fury etc meta or even off meta builds such as my *clears throat and enters shamelessly his build* Shepherd of Rot

Seraphayel

Trian94 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

@Rianai my dude, correct me if I'm wrong, but magicka characters (some less than others) can run bright throat and loaded infusion play around with jewelry glyphs and sit at 2.5k-3k spell dmg with over 34k magicka and around 1.7k - 2k mag recovery and literally their hp and stam is at very fine values. Their crit is nice, penetration is sold and as well. Just like that. It's literally no brainer. It may be harder for non magsorcs to build that way I won't deny that. But I can't deny the fact that it's overpowered. Cptomar told me he doesn't run major sorcery on his magsorc and he still hits mad hard. FFS.

On the magsorc topic in general: Magsorc has NEVER been out of meta or weak despite the nerfs. People just bitching cause it went from the high heavens down to earth. And btw I'm stamsorc main, haven't seen a good day ever since clockwork city but I'm not calling for nerfs on everything I don't fancy, unlike most people on the forums. I'll keep calling out the op stuff tho.

In no-CP this isn’t true. If people are wearing the all magicka sets their sp is likely at the spell damage from their 2 handed weapon plus 20% from major sorcery.

If there’s an issue with sorcs it’s not gear related. If it was magnecro wouldn’t be horrible.

Go play a magcro with the same gear and let me know if you still think the gear’s OP.

Necro can't work anyway cause it's broken lmao. Drunkbones can't connect lul

Even if Blast Bones would work 100% reliably it wouldn’t be enough because Necro has nothing to build pressure unless you’re Ultimate is up. The DoT playstyle is nice for PvE but when they’re lacking the power of DK DoTs they’re worthless and that’s happening in PvP. And please try to land and keep up Tether or Siphon, they’re awful to use in PvE how could you make good use of them in PvP in the end.

See this makes a huge difference to Sorcs where something like Curse always hits. Twilight always hits and you have to do absolutely nothing. I don’t say Sorcs should be nerfed because of this but Sorc players must understand how strong they are and how good their toolkit is.

Rianai

@Trian94

Yes those stats are possible (not without major buffs tho). Always have been. Doesn't need bright throat - which is basically the same as bone pirate anyway, so nothing that would put magicka ahead of stam. But can't stam builds have 25-30k stam and 4k+ weapon dmg with sufficient sustain and health? Less pen, sure, but maul/bleeds should offset that. Mag has better sustain sets (mainly looking at lich and amberplasm here, which don't have stamina counterparts), stam has better dmg sets (looking at certain well known heavy armor sets). And both have access to stupid procs.

My guess is you are looking at this from the perspective of a stam sorc with streak - a stam build that probably needs more magicka than most other stam builds, which requires trade-offs in other departments. Many stam builds seem to do fine without much investment into magicka, which allows them to stack more dmg than most magicka builds. On magicka you are always forced to invest into stam (tri stat food alone isn't "very fine" stam sustain on a magicka build btw, usually needs something in addition and you still won't be able to dodge/block/sprint as much as a stam build).

In the end i don't think stats are what make a build op or not (magsorcs don't really have better "stats" than magblades or magdens for example - does that put the latter on par with pet sorcs?). It is mostly about skills and passives. That's where certain classes are lacking compared to others. Regardless of stam or mag.

Insco851

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

But magicka can't do that. Even more so in noCP, where stacking max resources is less efficient compared to CP PvP. The only situation where stacking max magicka + Harness can be deemed op is 1vs1 against other magicka builds. Shields (especially when it is Harness alone) scale badly in outnumbered situations and those build will inevitably run into sustain issues against stam builds.

Nearly 2 years of Stamina Domination and people still crying about the only Mag Spec that can challenge the Stamina Domination META. Mmmmh, something smells fishy to me.

If anything all the rest of the Mag Specs should be boosted upto MagSorc level. So the other Mag Specs can also challenge the 2 years of Stamina Domination.

All the proof people need is to look at what all of the strong Streamers and Youtubers are normally using. STAMINA BUILDS or STAMBLADES, less than a hand fulll of them use any Mag Spec builds to include MagSorc. Yet people feel MagSorc needs to be nerfed in a again Stamina Domination META that going on 2 years strong.

No wonder ZOS ignore these players. If MagSorc was soo overpowered as you guys claim it is. Than why are nearly all of the streamers and youtubers that are doing it as a lively hood. Are showing off Killing whole zergs of players on Stamblades and Stamina Specs rather than MagSorc? Because you guys are idiots that need to L2P. And MagSorc is not as strong as those builds that make those Streamers and Youtubers their money.

CHECK and MATE! Take the scrubs who can't kill MagSorc away!

There’s still streamers running around on stamblades? Lol you might be a patch or so behind. That spec is far from what it was pre nerfs. FAR. They don’t scare anyone now, just another Stam spec.

Trian94

Rianai wrote: »

@Trian94

Yes those stats are possible (not without major buffs tho). Always have been. Doesn't need bright throat - which is basically the same as bone pirate anyway, so nothing that would put magicka ahead of stam. But can't stam builds have 25-30k stam and 4k+ weapon dmg with sufficient sustain and health? Less pen, sure, but maul/bleeds should offset that. Mag has better sustain sets (mainly looking at lich and amberplasm here, which don't have stamina counterparts), stam has better dmg sets (looking at certain well known heavy armor sets). And both have access to stupid procs.

My guess is you are looking at this from the perspective of a stam sorc with streak - a stam build that probably needs more magicka than most other stam builds, which requires trade-offs in other departments. Many stam builds seem to do fine without much investment into magicka, which allows them to stack more dmg than most magicka builds. On magicka you are always forced to invest into stam (tri stat food alone isn't "very fine" stam sustain on a magicka build btw, usually needs something in addition and you still won't be able to dodge/block/sprint as much as a stam build).

In the end i don't think stats are what make a build op or not (magsorcs don't really have better "stats" than magblades or magdens for example - does that put the latter on par with pet sorcs?). It is mostly about skills and passives. That's where certain classes are lacking compared to others.

You make a fair point but I'm not arguing from a stamsorc perspective though.
You talked about stamina chars having 4k + weapon DMG and 25-30k stamina. I'll correct you and say 25k-28k. How does that even compare to almost 40k mag in no cp especially when the mag spell tooltip scales better off of max magicka? Stamina chars have to go for high weapon damage which in no cp is a trade off for moderate to low stamina. Most of them sacrifice the offensive stats of medium armour for the tankiness of heavy because survival in medium is ***. Now do mag classes (especially ones with shields) have to make those trade offs? 99% of the times no. Which is my point regarding building for PvP in this patch. Magsorc can stay as it is for all I care. I believe that building it this way makes it broken. If they had an average of 30k mag in no cp they wouldn't hit for 1.5/4 of a normal build's hp with a frag or curse.

bardx86

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I honestly would not mind giving all classes back their identity. Bring back dynamic ultigen as well.

This game used to be so much fun before and it keeps going backwards patch after patch.

The warden class is absolutely destroyed in the name of balance.
necro is another one which is useless. The nerf train never stops does it?

Koensol wrote: »

Yea I gathered as much when reading your posts. You want easy mode. Because that's what the game was back then. Easy mode and insanely imbalanced.

Also warden destroyed? Omegalul. Warden is insanely strong in group play. Not on level of magsorc for solo, sure. But not bad at it by any means, in case of stamden that is. Magden does have problems in solo play, but this is mostly because they lack mobility, just like DK, templar and necro. Biggest problems of warden overall are in 1v1. But absolutely destroyed? Please..

sad to say - but phoenix is an absolute nut job. these posts solidify that. warden and magsorc are the "woe is me" dumpster classes per his posts? are you kidding me? absolutely delusional.

Talking about easy mode when we are in a tank meta with insane health lol. Majority of the players adopting similar playstyles. What does that tell you huh ? Where is class diversity and where is class identity ?

Mag sorc itself for instance has become insanely easy to play after resists stacking on shields. All you need is your buddy to provide you resists and you can forget your defensive side of your game.
Nightblade had become as tanky as dk. What's up with that seriously?

4+ years trying to balance the game but carry on. You guys are doing an amazing job !

So you need a buddy to help you to be viable. Seems legit.

Lol! OP thinks the game right now is easy mode compared to what it was before.

I gave an example of recent braindead changes due to which it's harder to kill sorcs due to pocket healer providing resists. Seems like you missed my point if u think I like these changes

Actually it easier than ever to kill a non pet sorc in BGs than it ever has. I know I play the class every dam day. Even stacking resist doesn't help that much I've tried every combination of sets out there. Shields are terrible vs multiple targets. Healing, dodging, blocking all out perform shields. In addition sorc don't have easy access to things like major protection. Non pet sorcs could use a little help in defense in BGs. Personally I'd like to see a morph of healing ward or harness that while the ward is on you get a hot nothing major but something similar to vigor.

Rianai

Well, 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg. So 25k stam and 4k weapon dmg is roughly compareable dmg and healing to 40k mag and 2,5k spell dmg. And a 40k magicka build won't have much more than 2,5k spell dmg, unless going full glass cannon with zero sustain and tankyness.

Also i'm not aware about any special scaling of magicka skills. 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg applies to both stam and magicka skills as far as i know. The only exception are shields (excluding healing ward tho) and sorc pets - those don't scale with spell dmg at all and this is the main reason, why some mag builds - especially sorcs - tend to stack magicka instead of spell dmg. But stacking max magicka isn't better than stacking spell/wpn dmg on non shield builds and non-sorc shield builds only excel at dueling other mag builds, because those classes don't have any class shields and therefore rely solely on harness (and petsorc would still come out on top i guess).
I tried a max magicka stacking shield build on magblade (up to almost 45k mag, yes without CP) - and i dropped it quickly. More unconditional sustain/tankyness/heals/mobility are more valuable for solo open world than a bit more dmg and a bigger shield (that still melts under pressure of multiple opponents and is unsustainable against stam builds). And if i want to stalemate other magicka classes in a 1vs1 i can just spam cloak anyway

bardx86 wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see a morph of healing ward or harness that while the ward is on you get a hot nothing major but something similar to vigor.

"Something like vigor" would be pretty major and op, especially when combined with shieldstacking or brp resto.