The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs

Derra

Iskiab wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Non-pet magsorc is still a top tier spec in Elsweyr. This is coming from someone who has mained it for the majority of the time since CWC (Nov 2017), in case anyone questions my bias.

Claiming that sorcs need a Twilight to be competitive is BS, and a poor excuse for running pets. Between Dark Conversion, Surge, Resto ult and healing ward, the spec has more-than-adequate healing for all modes of PvP.

It won't beat a meta stamDK 1-on-1, sure, but that's not saying much since no spec currently does. The utility that the sorc toolkit provides makes it much more useful in open world and BGs, however. It's also clearly overperforming in BGs right now—although that's more a function of how the BG format favours range and positioning, and not necessarily an intrinsic issue with the class itself.

I’d take this guy’s opinion on sorcs as an expert on the subject. I’ve seen him a lot and he’s a great sorc.

Thing is I don’t think sorcs need to be nerfed a lot to be balanced. If all these suggestions go through it would be WAY over the top.

I think just adjust sorc burst damage a smidge would do it. Maybe play with the execute to bring down their burst damage a smidge and they’ll be fine.

I´m personally much more annoyed by shieldstacking and petlos as those atleast from my perspective are the carrymechanics of the class.

The dmg is fine considering the class (without pet) has 0 access to sustained dmg abilities.

PhoenixGrey

TheYKcid wrote: »

Non-pet magsorc is still a top tier spec in Elsweyr. This is coming from someone who has mained it for the majority of the time since CWC (Nov 2017), in case anyone questions my bias.

Claiming that sorcs need a Twilight to be competitive is BS, and a poor excuse for running pets. Between Dark Conversion, Surge, Resto ult and healing ward, the spec has more-than-adequate healing for all modes of PvP.

It won't beat a meta stamDK 1-on-1, sure, but that's not saying much since no spec currently does. The utility that the sorc toolkit provides makes it much more useful in open world and BGs, however. It's also clearly overperforming in BGs right now—although that's more a function of how the BG format favours range and positioning, and not necessarily an intrinsic issue with the class itself.

I would say in open world pets have become a liability these days

However in bgs, the S/B passives with block migitation, resists and bird heal is too good to pass by after the restro ult nerf

TheYKcid

Life Giver actually isn't that bad, honestly. Still functional as a potent defensive ult and worth every bit of the cheap cost. Haven't had any issues sticking with resto, and being able to proc a full-strength zerker glyph from range is a nice plus.

Iskiab

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Non-pet magsorc is still a top tier spec in Elsweyr. This is coming from someone who has mained it for the majority of the time since CWC (Nov 2017), in case anyone questions my bias.

Claiming that sorcs need a Twilight to be competitive is BS, and a poor excuse for running pets. Between Dark Conversion, Surge, Resto ult and healing ward, the spec has more-than-adequate healing for all modes of PvP.

It won't beat a meta stamDK 1-on-1, sure, but that's not saying much since no spec currently does. The utility that the sorc toolkit provides makes it much more useful in open world and BGs, however. It's also clearly overperforming in BGs right now—although that's more a function of how the BG format favours range and positioning, and not necessarily an intrinsic issue with the class itself.

I’d take this guy’s opinion on sorcs as an expert on the subject. I’ve seen him a lot and he’s a great sorc.

Thing is I don’t think sorcs need to be nerfed a lot to be balanced. If all these suggestions go through it would be WAY over the top.

I think just adjust sorc burst damage a smidge would do it. Maybe play with the execute to bring down their burst damage a smidge and they’ll be fine.

I´m personally much more annoyed by shieldstacking and petlos as those atleast from my perspective are the carrymechanics of the class.

The dmg is fine considering the class (without pet) has 0 access to sustained dmg abilities.

Maybe yea. I don’t know how sorcs work and it’s the only class I don’t have so am not sure what it is (I don’t like pets).

I just think if someone wants to be tanky/annoying/use pets they should be able to, nerf pets too much and it’ll kill diversity which is bad for the game. Petsorcs are basicly just taking advantage of pvpers who only slot single target abilities.

I’m short on solutions but think if someone’s spamming shields and kiting around pets it wouldn’t be an issue unless they can turn around and burst someone while doing it.

I also don’t think sorcs are OP like people say, just a little over performing and only a small tweak would do the trick.

bardx86

Koensol wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?

Why would a magDK have 0 group heals slotted - that´s a debateable build choice.
Medium stamblade i agree - they have no place in 4v4v4 brawls with lots of ground aoe flying around.

Why is it easier for sorc to be *** in a group setting than other classes (and by other classes i mean heavy stam, magden, magplar and some magDK builds)?
They´re easier to shut down by a competent enemy group/players. This goes for offense and defense - as those are split entirely for sorc. Pressuring an enemy sorc if done right when not outright killing them will remove any offense of them from the fight.
They´re harder to support by their own group due to their defense mechanism being non scaling + being a class with litte healing synergy.

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Lol @Derra "they have to work" come play magnb with me buddy. Let's build some mercy stacks together. Lol "work" god I almost pee'd myself

Magblade is hot garbage this patch due to sustain issues regardless of what you do with it - except if you enjoy wasting everyones time by trolling them.

There are plenty of magdk's running around in BGs ending up with 0 grouphealing. Coagulating blood, embers, and powerlash provide enough healing to stay alive and some choose to run harness.

I can see your argument for shutting down into shield spam, but fail to see how this is any different for say a magplar. If magplar is pushed to defense, they are on their backbar and thats it. Sometimes magdk has the same problem, because they lack consistent rolling hots that stam has for example. Magicka classes in general are easier to lock down. Sorc however can streak away which they often do. People won't be chasing you in BGs like zerglings do in cyrodiil, because it is a waste of time. Guess which class regularly ends up with least deaths? Stamsorc and magsorc.

Ya but the big difference is the Magplar can handle several folks beating on them keeping them busy in the process, a Sorc can not. Sorcs defensive set isn't sufficient in this current healing meta. Healing > Shield by like 10 times right now. Steaking away is 50/50 at best as the skill is too slow and you get stun most of the time. 1 stun = dead Sorc these days. Look I'm not says other classes are much better off I'm just saying the direction of the game sucks and high MMR BG's suck for sorcs.

Malamar1229

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

reduce streak range by 30%
cap dmg shield at 35%
redesign mages wrath, that ability is just plain *** and an absolute nobrainer
Pets should just be targeted for single target abilities if the player tabbed willingly on the pet via tabtarget, but i guess thats far to hard to implement, so just lower pet health and raise their casttime, so you are actually able to active counter them by killing them

And now tell me how a sorc that doesn´t abuse pets or shieldstacking would be supposed to even play the class anymore...

This is the problem with people who want to nerf sorcs. They don´t care or understand the class - so just carpetbomb it to ***. Just nerf every ability that might be slightly inconvenient to fight against.

Why nerf the shield - when you can adress stacking that´s the issue in 95% of the cases (the others being too little dmg on the attacker side).
Why nerf streak at all atm - high stacking cost. The only reliable class cc and is already only 15m range + gapcloser are finally useable again.

And pets is just an all around stupid approach. They already die like flies in larger encouters and are 1 or 2shot for competent player - effectively being able to lock the sorc into recast + shielding with that.
Pets need to be not attackable - because being able to los but also die is the biggest scaling variable in the viability of these skills. A variable that can´t be controlled at that bc it depends on number and braincells of the enemy players.
To eliminate that you have to make pets unattackable. That removes los and it removes eventual downtimes you´d otherwise need to consider in their scaling.
Then you can go and massively cut matriarch dmg and rework the heal to sth not as much resembling bol.
You can give their (auto) attacks a minimal magica cost to prevent them from being free dmg (apart from slots).
You can finally begin to weight them against other skills without having to consider uptime and recasts and all that nonsense you can´t control.
Essentially to balance pets you need to rework them completely...

Don´t know if i agree on mages wrath. It´s mainly a bg killstealer and potatokiller. If i have to fight a competent player the first skill i remove from my bar is mages wrath.
No idea if the BG problem could be solved otherwise.

I dont know if nerfing shieldstacking is a good change. Sometimes outnumbered fights last for quite a while.

Do you really think a non breton mag sorc can sustain or tank out damage for extended period of time without stacking ?

To be fair, game balance occurs around group play because this is a

Mitaka211 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Outnumbered fights/1vx is just another name for seal clubbing. They're only possible due to CP advantage or huge skill gaps.

Oh btw, sorcs are the best seal clubbing class in the game #nerfmagsorcs

IDK about seal clubbing. Some people only enjoy outnumbered PVP in this game. I wouldn't step into BG's if cyrodil wasn't so laggy all the time.

You think it's possible to fight outnumbered against equally skilled players without a considerable cp gap and win?

You probably do, but you're also the same deluded person that thinks magsorcs aren't op right now...

I don't know what's the definition of equally skilled is in this game nor do i care about it. Those are the standards which guys like you want to define. There is honestly not much CP gap nowdays since the CP cap has not been changed for a bit.

I am a paying customer of ZOS who wants to enjoy outnumbered PVP on my mag sorc. If not mag sorc there are a few other classes which we can now choose from. Its literally that simple for me mate

And there it is , simple as that. Because so many of your pet sorc brothers think like you we are at this state. If you don't care about balance , then leave the forums and stop spreading misinformation . Hey it's perfectly fine to enjoy the game and performing well is a part of that, but by god you people jump on every thread remotely going against your class and bombard it with misinformation and insults .

How is it that any stamina necromancer you ask about pummeling goliath is like "yea that skills is super broken" but you mention how pet sorcs dominate pvp more than ever and people are preparing the noose to hang you.

Btw one extremely bad thing i have noticed as well is the deafening silence of the devs on this matter. They react when they have to gut other classes but with sorcs , they are like that dog in the meme , where he is drinking coffee while his house is burning down lol.

What's the issue here? Phoenix is actually a very decent player. I have 2vX with him a few times.
No one is denying that sorc us strong right now but you look at that from a certain context. First of all, bad players are bad and can be farmed regardless of 1 skill or a gear set. I can farm them with multiple classes and specific to magsorc in petless builds as well. The issue is with pets.

Secondly, ZOS doesnt balance this game around 1vX and to keep expecting they will is just setting you up for disappointment. They have patch after patch made it harder for 1vX.

Thirdly, to address a previous question, No I cannot 1vX skilled players. However, i can build defensively and survive possibly at the expense of being able to kill anything. That's a trade off IMO.

For giggles, I ran riposte, bloodspawn, and impreg on one of my magsorcs with temporal guard slotted. The potatoes trying to kill me sent me whispers about cheat engine and being a hacker. Typical. Can I kill anyone competent on that set up? Nope. Can I kill bads? Yep. So why do we need to bring the ceiling down for then and continue to drive off good players? Why keep introducing sets like troll king, earthgore, etc

Iskiab

bardx86 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?

Why would a magDK have 0 group heals slotted - that´s a debateable build choice.
Medium stamblade i agree - they have no place in 4v4v4 brawls with lots of ground aoe flying around.

Why is it easier for sorc to be *** in a group setting than other classes (and by other classes i mean heavy stam, magden, magplar and some magDK builds)?
They´re easier to shut down by a competent enemy group/players. This goes for offense and defense - as those are split entirely for sorc. Pressuring an enemy sorc if done right when not outright killing them will remove any offense of them from the fight.
They´re harder to support by their own group due to their defense mechanism being non scaling + being a class with litte healing synergy.

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Lol @Derra "they have to work" come play magnb with me buddy. Let's build some mercy stacks together. Lol "work" god I almost pee'd myself

Magblade is hot garbage this patch due to sustain issues regardless of what you do with it - except if you enjoy wasting everyones time by trolling them.

There are plenty of magdk's running around in BGs ending up with 0 grouphealing. Coagulating blood, embers, and powerlash provide enough healing to stay alive and some choose to run harness.

I can see your argument for shutting down into shield spam, but fail to see how this is any different for say a magplar. If magplar is pushed to defense, they are on their backbar and thats it. Sometimes magdk has the same problem, because they lack consistent rolling hots that stam has for example. Magicka classes in general are easier to lock down. Sorc however can streak away which they often do. People won't be chasing you in BGs like zerglings do in cyrodiil, because it is a waste of time. Guess which class regularly ends up with least deaths? Stamsorc and magsorc.

Ya but the big difference is the Magplar can handle several folks beating on them keeping them busy in the process, a Sorc can not. Sorcs defensive set isn't sufficient in this current healing meta. Healing > Shield by like 10 times right now. Steaking away is 50/50 at best as the skill is too slow and you get stun most of the time. 1 stun = dead Sorc these days. Look I'm not says other classes are much better off I'm just saying the direction of the game sucks and high MMR BG's suck for sorcs.

This is total nonsense. Shields are only as strong as who they’re put on, if you find them weak then your mitigation must suck.

Shields will always be stronger then healing because they negate cc.

PhoenixGrey

TheYKcid wrote: »

Life Giver actually isn't that bad, honestly. Still functional as a potent defensive ult and worth every bit of the cheap cost. Haven't had any issues sticking with resto, and being able to proc a full-strength zerker glyph from range is a nice plus.

It's not bad but I kind of believe in not taking too much damage to your health pool rather than healing through it.

s &b allows you to take minimal damage just by block casting streak or heal when pressured due to its extraordinary passives. When I look at the restro staff passives it looks like a PVE weapon tbh.

Urvoth

TheYKcid wrote: »

Life Giver actually isn't that bad, honestly. Still functional as a potent defensive ult and worth every bit of the cheap cost. Haven't had any issues sticking with resto, and being able to proc a full-strength zerker glyph from range is a nice plus.

Yeah, I haven't noticed that much of a hit after swapping to that either.

iCaliban

Iskiab wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?

Why would a magDK have 0 group heals slotted - that´s a debateable build choice.
Medium stamblade i agree - they have no place in 4v4v4 brawls with lots of ground aoe flying around.

Why is it easier for sorc to be *** in a group setting than other classes (and by other classes i mean heavy stam, magden, magplar and some magDK builds)?
They´re easier to shut down by a competent enemy group/players. This goes for offense and defense - as those are split entirely for sorc. Pressuring an enemy sorc if done right when not outright killing them will remove any offense of them from the fight.
They´re harder to support by their own group due to their defense mechanism being non scaling + being a class with litte healing synergy.

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Lol @Derra "they have to work" come play magnb with me buddy. Let's build some mercy stacks together. Lol "work" god I almost pee'd myself

Magblade is hot garbage this patch due to sustain issues regardless of what you do with it - except if you enjoy wasting everyones time by trolling them.

There are plenty of magdk's running around in BGs ending up with 0 grouphealing. Coagulating blood, embers, and powerlash provide enough healing to stay alive and some choose to run harness.

I can see your argument for shutting down into shield spam, but fail to see how this is any different for say a magplar. If magplar is pushed to defense, they are on their backbar and thats it. Sometimes magdk has the same problem, because they lack consistent rolling hots that stam has for example. Magicka classes in general are easier to lock down. Sorc however can streak away which they often do. People won't be chasing you in BGs like zerglings do in cyrodiil, because it is a waste of time. Guess which class regularly ends up with least deaths? Stamsorc and magsorc.

Ya but the big difference is the Magplar can handle several folks beating on them keeping them busy in the process, a Sorc can not. Sorcs defensive set isn't sufficient in this current healing meta. Healing > Shield by like 10 times right now. Steaking away is 50/50 at best as the skill is too slow and you get stun most of the time. 1 stun = dead Sorc these days. Look I'm not says other classes are much better off I'm just saying the direction of the game sucks and high MMR BG's suck for sorcs.

This is total nonsense. Shields are only as strong as who they’re put on, if you find them weak then your mitigation must suck.

Shields will always be stronger then healing because they negate cc.

LOL @shields negate CC. They function as temporary health now. Enchants/debuffs/stuns/roots, all go through shields.

GhostofDatthaw

iCaliban wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?

Why would a magDK have 0 group heals slotted - that´s a debateable build choice.
Medium stamblade i agree - they have no place in 4v4v4 brawls with lots of ground aoe flying around.

Why is it easier for sorc to be *** in a group setting than other classes (and by other classes i mean heavy stam, magden, magplar and some magDK builds)?
They´re easier to shut down by a competent enemy group/players. This goes for offense and defense - as those are split entirely for sorc. Pressuring an enemy sorc if done right when not outright killing them will remove any offense of them from the fight.
They´re harder to support by their own group due to their defense mechanism being non scaling + being a class with litte healing synergy.

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Lol @Derra "they have to work" come play magnb with me buddy. Let's build some mercy stacks together. Lol "work" god I almost pee'd myself

Magblade is hot garbage this patch due to sustain issues regardless of what you do with it - except if you enjoy wasting everyones time by trolling them.

There are plenty of magdk's running around in BGs ending up with 0 grouphealing. Coagulating blood, embers, and powerlash provide enough healing to stay alive and some choose to run harness.

I can see your argument for shutting down into shield spam, but fail to see how this is any different for say a magplar. If magplar is pushed to defense, they are on their backbar and thats it. Sometimes magdk has the same problem, because they lack consistent rolling hots that stam has for example. Magicka classes in general are easier to lock down. Sorc however can streak away which they often do. People won't be chasing you in BGs like zerglings do in cyrodiil, because it is a waste of time. Guess which class regularly ends up with least deaths? Stamsorc and magsorc.

Ya but the big difference is the Magplar can handle several folks beating on them keeping them busy in the process, a Sorc can not. Sorcs defensive set isn't sufficient in this current healing meta. Healing > Shield by like 10 times right now. Steaking away is 50/50 at best as the skill is too slow and you get stun most of the time. 1 stun = dead Sorc these days. Look I'm not says other classes are much better off I'm just saying the direction of the game sucks and high MMR BG's suck for sorcs.

This is total nonsense. Shields are only as strong as who they’re put on, if you find them weak then your mitigation must suck.

Shields will always be stronger then healing because they negate cc.

LOL @shields negate CC. They function as temporary health now. Enchants/debuffs/stuns/roots, all go through shields.

I'm not sure but I think he means negate cc in terms of you can get shield up then take a full on leap combo or w/e without blocking or anything.

GhostofDatthaw

Malamar1229 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

reduce streak range by 30%
cap dmg shield at 35%
redesign mages wrath, that ability is just plain *** and an absolute nobrainer
Pets should just be targeted for single target abilities if the player tabbed willingly on the pet via tabtarget, but i guess thats far to hard to implement, so just lower pet health and raise their casttime, so you are actually able to active counter them by killing them

And now tell me how a sorc that doesn´t abuse pets or shieldstacking would be supposed to even play the class anymore...

This is the problem with people who want to nerf sorcs. They don´t care or understand the class - so just carpetbomb it to ***. Just nerf every ability that might be slightly inconvenient to fight against.

Why nerf the shield - when you can adress stacking that´s the issue in 95% of the cases (the others being too little dmg on the attacker side).
Why nerf streak at all atm - high stacking cost. The only reliable class cc and is already only 15m range + gapcloser are finally useable again.

And pets is just an all around stupid approach. They already die like flies in larger encouters and are 1 or 2shot for competent player - effectively being able to lock the sorc into recast + shielding with that.
Pets need to be not attackable - because being able to los but also die is the biggest scaling variable in the viability of these skills. A variable that can´t be controlled at that bc it depends on number and braincells of the enemy players.
To eliminate that you have to make pets unattackable. That removes los and it removes eventual downtimes you´d otherwise need to consider in their scaling.
Then you can go and massively cut matriarch dmg and rework the heal to sth not as much resembling bol.
You can give their (auto) attacks a minimal magica cost to prevent them from being free dmg (apart from slots).
You can finally begin to weight them against other skills without having to consider uptime and recasts and all that nonsense you can´t control.
Essentially to balance pets you need to rework them completely...

Don´t know if i agree on mages wrath. It´s mainly a bg killstealer and potatokiller. If i have to fight a competent player the first skill i remove from my bar is mages wrath.
No idea if the BG problem could be solved otherwise.

I dont know if nerfing shieldstacking is a good change. Sometimes outnumbered fights last for quite a while.

Do you really think a non breton mag sorc can sustain or tank out damage for extended period of time without stacking ?

To be fair, game balance occurs around group play because this is a

Mitaka211 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Outnumbered fights/1vx is just another name for seal clubbing. They're only possible due to CP advantage or huge skill gaps.

Oh btw, sorcs are the best seal clubbing class in the game #nerfmagsorcs

IDK about seal clubbing. Some people only enjoy outnumbered PVP in this game. I wouldn't step into BG's if cyrodil wasn't so laggy all the time.

You think it's possible to fight outnumbered against equally skilled players without a considerable cp gap and win?

You probably do, but you're also the same deluded person that thinks magsorcs aren't op right now...

I don't know what's the definition of equally skilled is in this game nor do i care about it. Those are the standards which guys like you want to define. There is honestly not much CP gap nowdays since the CP cap has not been changed for a bit.

I am a paying customer of ZOS who wants to enjoy outnumbered PVP on my mag sorc. If not mag sorc there are a few other classes which we can now choose from. Its literally that simple for me mate

And there it is , simple as that. Because so many of your pet sorc brothers think like you we are at this state. If you don't care about balance , then leave the forums and stop spreading misinformation . Hey it's perfectly fine to enjoy the game and performing well is a part of that, but by god you people jump on every thread remotely going against your class and bombard it with misinformation and insults .

How is it that any stamina necromancer you ask about pummeling goliath is like "yea that skills is super broken" but you mention how pet sorcs dominate pvp more than ever and people are preparing the noose to hang you.

Btw one extremely bad thing i have noticed as well is the deafening silence of the devs on this matter. They react when they have to gut other classes but with sorcs , they are like that dog in the meme , where he is drinking coffee while his house is burning down lol.

What's the issue here? Phoenix is actually a very decent player. I have 2vX with him a few times.
No one is denying that sorc us strong right now but you look at that from a certain context. First of all, bad players are bad and can be farmed regardless of 1 skill or a gear set. I can farm them with multiple classes and specific to magsorc in petless builds as well. The issue is with pets.

Secondly, ZOS doesnt balance this game around 1vX and to keep expecting they will is just setting you up for disappointment. They have patch after patch made it harder for 1vX.

Thirdly, to address a previous question, No I cannot 1vX skilled players. However, i can build defensively and survive possibly at the expense of being able to kill anything. That's a trade off IMO.

For giggles, I ran riposte, bloodspawn, and impreg on one of my magsorcs with temporal guard slotted. The potatoes trying to kill me sent me whispers about cheat engine and being a hacker. Typical. Can I kill anyone competent on that set up? Nope. Can I kill bads? Yep. So why do we need to bring the ceiling down for then and continue to drive off good players? Why keep introducing sets like troll king, earthgore, etc

Because zos caters to the casual. They have said lower the ceiling raise the floor multiple times. Fuggin zos'd

Derra

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

reduce streak range by 30%
cap dmg shield at 35%
redesign mages wrath, that ability is just plain *** and an absolute nobrainer
Pets should just be targeted for single target abilities if the player tabbed willingly on the pet via tabtarget, but i guess thats far to hard to implement, so just lower pet health and raise their casttime, so you are actually able to active counter them by killing them

And now tell me how a sorc that doesn´t abuse pets or shieldstacking would be supposed to even play the class anymore...

This is the problem with people who want to nerf sorcs. They don´t care or understand the class - so just carpetbomb it to ***. Just nerf every ability that might be slightly inconvenient to fight against.

Why nerf the shield - when you can adress stacking that´s the issue in 95% of the cases (the others being too little dmg on the attacker side).
Why nerf streak at all atm - high stacking cost. The only reliable class cc and is already only 15m range + gapcloser are finally useable again.

And pets is just an all around stupid approach. They already die like flies in larger encouters and are 1 or 2shot for competent player - effectively being able to lock the sorc into recast + shielding with that.
Pets need to be not attackable - because being able to los but also die is the biggest scaling variable in the viability of these skills. A variable that can´t be controlled at that bc it depends on number and braincells of the enemy players.
To eliminate that you have to make pets unattackable. That removes los and it removes eventual downtimes you´d otherwise need to consider in their scaling.
Then you can go and massively cut matriarch dmg and rework the heal to sth not as much resembling bol.
You can give their (auto) attacks a minimal magica cost to prevent them from being free dmg (apart from slots).
You can finally begin to weight them against other skills without having to consider uptime and recasts and all that nonsense you can´t control.
Essentially to balance pets you need to rework them completely...

Don´t know if i agree on mages wrath. It´s mainly a bg killstealer and potatokiller. If i have to fight a competent player the first skill i remove from my bar is mages wrath.
No idea if the BG problem could be solved otherwise.

I dont know if nerfing shieldstacking is a good change. Sometimes outnumbered fights last for quite a while.

Do you really think a non breton mag sorc can sustain or tank out damage for extended period of time without stacking ?

To be fair, game balance occurs around group play because this is a

Mitaka211 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Outnumbered fights/1vx is just another name for seal clubbing. They're only possible due to CP advantage or huge skill gaps.

Oh btw, sorcs are the best seal clubbing class in the game #nerfmagsorcs

IDK about seal clubbing. Some people only enjoy outnumbered PVP in this game. I wouldn't step into BG's if cyrodil wasn't so laggy all the time.

You think it's possible to fight outnumbered against equally skilled players without a considerable cp gap and win?

You probably do, but you're also the same deluded person that thinks magsorcs aren't op right now...

I don't know what's the definition of equally skilled is in this game nor do i care about it. Those are the standards which guys like you want to define. There is honestly not much CP gap nowdays since the CP cap has not been changed for a bit.

I am a paying customer of ZOS who wants to enjoy outnumbered PVP on my mag sorc. If not mag sorc there are a few other classes which we can now choose from. Its literally that simple for me mate

And there it is , simple as that. Because so many of your pet sorc brothers think like you we are at this state. If you don't care about balance , then leave the forums and stop spreading misinformation . Hey it's perfectly fine to enjoy the game and performing well is a part of that, but by god you people jump on every thread remotely going against your class and bombard it with misinformation and insults .

How is it that any stamina necromancer you ask about pummeling goliath is like "yea that skills is super broken" but you mention how pet sorcs dominate pvp more than ever and people are preparing the noose to hang you.

Btw one extremely bad thing i have noticed as well is the deafening silence of the devs on this matter. They react when they have to gut other classes but with sorcs , they are like that dog in the meme , where he is drinking coffee while his house is burning down lol.

What's the issue here? Phoenix is actually a very decent player. I have 2vX with him a few times.
No one is denying that sorc us strong right now but you look at that from a certain context. First of all, bad players are bad and can be farmed regardless of 1 skill or a gear set. I can farm them with multiple classes and specific to magsorc in petless builds as well. The issue is with pets.

Secondly, ZOS doesnt balance this game around 1vX and to keep expecting they will is just setting you up for disappointment. They have patch after patch made it harder for 1vX.

Thirdly, to address a previous question, No I cannot 1vX skilled players. However, i can build defensively and survive possibly at the expense of being able to kill anything. That's a trade off IMO.

For giggles, I ran riposte, bloodspawn, and impreg on one of my magsorcs with temporal guard slotted. The potatoes trying to kill me sent me whispers about cheat engine and being a hacker. Typical. Can I kill anyone competent on that set up? Nope. Can I kill bads? Yep. So why do we need to bring the ceiling down for then and continue to drive off good players? Why keep introducing sets like troll king, earthgore, etc

Because zos caters to the casual. They have said lower the ceiling raise the floor multiple times. Fuggin zos'd

The flaw in that line of thought is the assumption that a higher ttk caters to casuals - which it does not.

A tanky meta leads to fights not determined by one mistake but instead by multiple or bad decision or resource management. Fighting for extended periods of time is way harder than short fights as it allows for more mistakes to be made - while landing a lucky punch (or string of crits) is virtually never a deciding factor as the dmg to HP ratio is usually skewed in favor of hp.

The problem in that regard is mainly that securing a kill requires well executed offense over sometimes extended periods of time.
No casual below average player in any mmo i´ve ever played has been capable of achieving that.

usmcjdking

It's really just the pets & streak.

The pets should function much more closely to necro pets instead of being this persistant summon doing constant damage and taking 5% AOE damage.

Streak needs to have the cost dramatically lowered and have charges. 1 charge per 10 seconds instead of the scaling cost. Hitting 3 or more targets should provide a charge back. Gives solo 1vX Sorc much more space to work with while putting Streak runners into the ground and punishing them for outright running.

Other than some tweaking to Master's Destro, I don't really see any fundamental overperforming issues with magsorc. It has a lot of underperforming values that need to be addressed as well.

GhostofDatthaw

Derra wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

reduce streak range by 30%
cap dmg shield at 35%
redesign mages wrath, that ability is just plain *** and an absolute nobrainer
Pets should just be targeted for single target abilities if the player tabbed willingly on the pet via tabtarget, but i guess thats far to hard to implement, so just lower pet health and raise their casttime, so you are actually able to active counter them by killing them

And now tell me how a sorc that doesn´t abuse pets or shieldstacking would be supposed to even play the class anymore...

This is the problem with people who want to nerf sorcs. They don´t care or understand the class - so just carpetbomb it to ***. Just nerf every ability that might be slightly inconvenient to fight against.

Why nerf the shield - when you can adress stacking that´s the issue in 95% of the cases (the others being too little dmg on the attacker side).
Why nerf streak at all atm - high stacking cost. The only reliable class cc and is already only 15m range + gapcloser are finally useable again.

And pets is just an all around stupid approach. They already die like flies in larger encouters and are 1 or 2shot for competent player - effectively being able to lock the sorc into recast + shielding with that.
Pets need to be not attackable - because being able to los but also die is the biggest scaling variable in the viability of these skills. A variable that can´t be controlled at that bc it depends on number and braincells of the enemy players.
To eliminate that you have to make pets unattackable. That removes los and it removes eventual downtimes you´d otherwise need to consider in their scaling.
Then you can go and massively cut matriarch dmg and rework the heal to sth not as much resembling bol.
You can give their (auto) attacks a minimal magica cost to prevent them from being free dmg (apart from slots).
You can finally begin to weight them against other skills without having to consider uptime and recasts and all that nonsense you can´t control.
Essentially to balance pets you need to rework them completely...

Don´t know if i agree on mages wrath. It´s mainly a bg killstealer and potatokiller. If i have to fight a competent player the first skill i remove from my bar is mages wrath.
No idea if the BG problem could be solved otherwise.

I dont know if nerfing shieldstacking is a good change. Sometimes outnumbered fights last for quite a while.

Do you really think a non breton mag sorc can sustain or tank out damage for extended period of time without stacking ?

To be fair, game balance occurs around group play because this is a

Mitaka211 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Outnumbered fights/1vx is just another name for seal clubbing. They're only possible due to CP advantage or huge skill gaps.

Oh btw, sorcs are the best seal clubbing class in the game #nerfmagsorcs

IDK about seal clubbing. Some people only enjoy outnumbered PVP in this game. I wouldn't step into BG's if cyrodil wasn't so laggy all the time.

You think it's possible to fight outnumbered against equally skilled players without a considerable cp gap and win?

You probably do, but you're also the same deluded person that thinks magsorcs aren't op right now...

I don't know what's the definition of equally skilled is in this game nor do i care about it. Those are the standards which guys like you want to define. There is honestly not much CP gap nowdays since the CP cap has not been changed for a bit.

I am a paying customer of ZOS who wants to enjoy outnumbered PVP on my mag sorc. If not mag sorc there are a few other classes which we can now choose from. Its literally that simple for me mate

And there it is , simple as that. Because so many of your pet sorc brothers think like you we are at this state. If you don't care about balance , then leave the forums and stop spreading misinformation . Hey it's perfectly fine to enjoy the game and performing well is a part of that, but by god you people jump on every thread remotely going against your class and bombard it with misinformation and insults .

How is it that any stamina necromancer you ask about pummeling goliath is like "yea that skills is super broken" but you mention how pet sorcs dominate pvp more than ever and people are preparing the noose to hang you.

Btw one extremely bad thing i have noticed as well is the deafening silence of the devs on this matter. They react when they have to gut other classes but with sorcs , they are like that dog in the meme , where he is drinking coffee while his house is burning down lol.

What's the issue here? Phoenix is actually a very decent player. I have 2vX with him a few times.
No one is denying that sorc us strong right now but you look at that from a certain context. First of all, bad players are bad and can be farmed regardless of 1 skill or a gear set. I can farm them with multiple classes and specific to magsorc in petless builds as well. The issue is with pets.

Secondly, ZOS doesnt balance this game around 1vX and to keep expecting they will is just setting you up for disappointment. They have patch after patch made it harder for 1vX.

Thirdly, to address a previous question, No I cannot 1vX skilled players. However, i can build defensively and survive possibly at the expense of being able to kill anything. That's a trade off IMO.

For giggles, I ran riposte, bloodspawn, and impreg on one of my magsorcs with temporal guard slotted. The potatoes trying to kill me sent me whispers about cheat engine and being a hacker. Typical. Can I kill anyone competent on that set up? Nope. Can I kill bads? Yep. So why do we need to bring the ceiling down for then and continue to drive off good players? Why keep introducing sets like troll king, earthgore, etc

Because zos caters to the casual. They have said lower the ceiling raise the floor multiple times. Fuggin zos'd

The flaw in that line of thought is the assumption that a higher ttk caters to casuals - which it does not.

A tanky meta leads to fights not determined by one mistake but instead by multiple or bad decision or resource management. Fighting for extended periods of time is way harder than short fights as it allows for more mistakes to be made - while landing a lucky punch (or string of crits) is virtually never a deciding factor as the dmg to HP ratio is usually skewed in favor of hp.

The problem in that regard is mainly that securing a kill requires well executed offense over sometimes extended periods of time.
No casual below average player in any mmo i´ve ever played has been capable of achieving that.

I'm not disagreeing at all. I just want to point out that the majority of casual players will not even notice the changes that are discussed on these forums. and they are the ones being catered to that's the reason why we never get responses here they don't care

DarkGottbeard

Since the beginning of the game, there has been a "nerf sorc" thread. Every 3-6 months a new thread pops up filled with righteous indignation determined to bring down the 'OP" terror. The arguments are the same every time. The tactics and terminology on both sides are the same every time. And every single time it ends in a new more stringent sorc nerf. People bail off of the class in droves, grumbling and lamenting the loss of a fun play-style. Then the sorc mains and theorycrafters get to work. They assess the damage. They get creative and experimental with builds. When they find some traction, they go out in cyrodiil and suffer the backlash of a butthurt zerg. They practice, they learn, they suffer and then they get good again. A few weeks to 3 months later they are hunting that same zerg. The "Sorc oP" chatter starts to murmur again. The bandwagon sorcs come back. The screams get louder now. The toe in the water thread starts, "Is sorc OP?". Next comes the new "nerf sorc!" thread. A month later, the "which class is the most annoying" poll thread pops up. The Cycle is complete.

Nerfs will never stop Sorc because as much as you like to think it, Sorc is not strong from mathematics. Sorc is strong from blood on the soil. If you want to stop sorc for good, stop it the way they stopped sap tank. Remove and completely redesign their fundamental skills into worthless supplements. Take sorc as we know it completely out of the game. Take hardened ward and harness magicka completely out of the game and replace them with a major evasion buff that doesnt work well. Make streak a snare removal that lasts for 1 second but no longer teleports. Anything short of that and i can promise you, we will bleed, we will suffer, we will get good, and we will come back.

mook-eb16_ESO

why is this thread a thing in a stamina dominated meta?

Lokey0024

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

I hope you guys aren't complaining about non pet sorcs in BG's they are hot garbage right now. Utter trash.

Lol

Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.

The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).

This is true...until you get 3 Curses on you that pop within a second of each other and a reactive execute. Then 3 players have used 2 abilities and nuked someone.

MaxJrFTW

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

why is this thread a thing in a stamina dominated meta?

Get with the program, old timer! Stamina is only good for one thing and it ain't ESO related.

bardx86

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

I hope you guys aren't complaining about non pet sorcs in BG's they are hot garbage right now. Utter trash.

Lol

Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.

The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).

This is true...until you get 3 Curses on you that pop within a second of each other and a reactive execute. Then 3 players have used 2 abilities and nuked someone.

get 3 anything jack!

Lokey0024

bardx86 wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

I hope you guys aren't complaining about non pet sorcs in BG's they are hot garbage right now. Utter trash.

Lol

Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.

The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).

This is true...until you get 3 Curses on you that pop within a second of each other and a reactive execute. Then 3 players have used 2 abilities and nuked someone.

get 3 anything jack!

Id block em

Lord-Otto

Lokey0024 wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

I hope you guys aren't complaining about non pet sorcs in BG's they are hot garbage right now. Utter trash.

Lol

Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.

The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).

This is true...until you get 3 Curses on you that pop within a second of each other and a reactive execute. Then 3 players have used 2 abilities and nuked someone.

get 3 anything jack!

Id block em

Sounds to me like block was OP, not Curse...

Derra

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

I hope you guys aren't complaining about non pet sorcs in BG's they are hot garbage right now. Utter trash.

Lol

Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.

The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).

This is true...until you get 3 Curses on you that pop within a second of each other and a reactive execute. Then 3 players have used 2 abilities and nuked someone.

get 3 anything jack!

Id block em

Sounds to me like block was OP, not Curse...

The only op part about blocking still in the game is that you can block while your character does the breakfree animation (you can´t use any other defense).

Which ironically makes the skills that break block a lot weaker if the opponent doesn´t have too much brainlag on breakfree.

pieratsos

usmcjdking wrote: »

It's really just the pets & streak.

The pets should function much more closely to necro pets instead of being this persistant summon doing constant damage and taking 5% AOE damage.

Streak needs to have the cost dramatically lowered and have charges. 1 charge per 10 seconds instead of the scaling cost. Hitting 3 or more targets should provide a charge back. Gives solo 1vX Sorc much more space to work with while putting Streak runners into the ground and punishing them for outright running.

Other than some tweaking to Master's Destro, I don't really see any fundamental overperforming issues with magsorc. It has a lot of underperforming values that need to be addressed as well.

So the way to fix a mobile class is punish them for being mobile and allow them to tank with shields complemented with huge resistances and hp? Yeah that sounds the exact opposite of how it should work.

Ariades_swe

mursie wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Sure cp needs reworked but the idea that it should just go away and players who have played for years are now on par with someone who picked up the game a few weeks back is pretty silly. (Sans gear)

i find it silly that you think you need stat-based competitive advantages over others simply because you've played the game longer. Let your experience and skill crafted over many sessions of play be the crutch you lean on to beat your opponent. Have some self respect.

Because getting carried by master dual wield and troll king in no cp is so much more skillfull....
Lmao

you mean the bugged master dual wield that doesn't even add the bonus damage to the final tick of the bleed? You know, the nerfed bleed patched months ago.

or are you crying about your inability to run vet blessed crucible resulting in you dieing to pro pve'ers dominating you with troll king?

you're laughable trying to defend actual 25%+ stat advantage crutches given to max cp players over low CP players by discussing gear sets available to everyone by doing simple pve designed for sub cp300 players.

when i hear clowns discuss no-cp as a gear carry zone... i laugh. because clowns make me laugh.

what's up clown.

Lol

Lord-Otto

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

I hope you guys aren't complaining about non pet sorcs in BG's they are hot garbage right now. Utter trash.

Lol

Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.

The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).

This is true...until you get 3 Curses on you that pop within a second of each other and a reactive execute. Then 3 players have used 2 abilities and nuked someone.

get 3 anything jack!

Id block em

Sounds to me like block was OP, not Curse...

The only op part about blocking still in the game is that you can block while your character does the breakfree animation (you can´t use any other defense).

Which ironically makes the skills that break block a lot weaker if the opponent doesn´t have too much brainlag on breakfree.

You can also dodge, it'll typically get priority over any skill aimed at you.
Shields, of course, need to finish the animation first...

Emma_Overload

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

why is this thread a thing in a stamina dominated meta?

LOL, I have no idea!

Seraphayel

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

why is this thread a thing in a stamina dominated meta?

From a PvE perspective: no reason for this thread to exist, as you pointed out, Stam meta.

From a PvP perspective: Magsorcs are incredibly strong, by far the strongest Magicka class and overall one of the best PvP builds and due to their incredible burst + reactive execute very hard to counter. Plus they have one of the best PvP ultimates (Negate) and very strong self-heals/shields. Plus pets in PvE are incredibly annoying and are a massive pita due to the really bad targeting system this game has, e.g. alone due to their size they act as some kind of secondary defense on top.

Lord-Otto

Seraphayel wrote: »

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

why is this thread a thing in a stamina dominated meta?

From a PvE perspective: no reason for this thread to exist, as you pointed out, Stam meta.

From a PvP perspective: Magsorcs are incredibly strong, by far the strongest Magicka class and overall one of the best PvP builds and due to their incredible burst + reactive execute very hard to counter. Plus they have one of the best PvP ultimates (Negate) and very strong self-heals/shields. Plus pets in PvE are incredibly annoying and are a massive pita due to the really bad targeting system this game has, e.g. alone due to their size they act as some kind of secondary defense on top.

Stamina builds are in general stronger than magicka ones in PvP. Sorc is the one notable exception.
Did you know that pet sorcs actually don't use Fury? You gotta pay the two Twilight slots somehow, and there's the big sacrifice. Something that certain people here like to ignore...

Imryll

Magsorcs are fine. Other mag classes need to be buffed so that stam players don't assume that a competitive mag spec needs a nerf. And my magsorc would drop the matriarch in an instant for a reliable heal that didn't require double-slotting or a resto staff. Pets really limit the tools available. Still waiting on a mag morph for vigor.