The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs

oxygen_thief

Trian94 wrote: »

Enable cp box is unchecked

stritzi wrote: »

show me that setup in no cp

Trian94 wrote: »

Bright throat+ alfiq + spring loaded infusion. Play around with glyphs as you like. Boom

i thought its about no cp.

Lord-Otto

Koensol wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Well, 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg. So 25k stam and 4k weapon dmg is roughly compareable dmg and healing to 40k mag and 2,5k spell dmg. And a 40k magicka build won't have much more than 2,5k spell dmg, unless going full glass cannon with zero sustain and tankyness.

Also i'm not aware about any special scaling of magicka skills. 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg applies to both stam and magicka skills as far as i know. The only exception are shields (excluding healing ward tho) and sorc pets - those don't scale with spell dmg at all and this is the main reason, why some mag builds - especially sorcs - tend to stack magicka instead of spell dmg. But stacking max magicka isn't better than stacking spell/wpn dmg on non shield builds and non-sorc shield builds only excel at dueling other mag builds, because those classes don't have any class shields and therefore rely solely on harness (and petsorc would still come out on top i guess).
I tried a max magicka stacking shield build on magblade (up to almost 45k mag, yes without CP) - and i dropped it quickly. More unconditional sustain/tankyness/heals/mobility are more valuable for solo open world than a bit more dmg and a bigger shield (that still melts under pressure of multiple opponents and is unsustainable against stam builds). And if i want to stalemate other magicka classes in a 1vs1 i can just spam cloak anyway

You are right that shieldstacking on non-magsorc class is garbage for no cp. I tried it as well. Conveniently though it fits the magsorc design perfectly well and makes sure they both hit hard and have a large ward size. The little they have to invest in health and resistances is neglible compared to the amount of damage they got from the changes.

I cant tell you how many times in a BG where I was fighting with my group and suddenly I literally get deleted in 2 seconds by 2 magsorc muppets sitting at max range stacking curse, executes and proccing their frags. That particular build had SnB backbar with 35k spell resist and still I just got shredded by +5k curses and 8k frags. Problem is most of the damage procs/hits at the same time in burst intervals, so you have little time to react to the suddrn loss in health. If it doesn't kill you their teammates will or the idiotic execute will proc from dots they didn't even cast and finish you off. I can't even describe how infuriating magsorcs currently are in BGs. They are constantly putting out craploads of unavoidable damage from range and when you try and take the fight to them to pressure them they pop a couple streaks and they are gone. Literally worse than stamblades who at least have to come into melee range to do their thing and are very susceptible to eating burst and AoE.

Yeah. Blame magsorcs for your lack of situational awareness. Classic.

Situational awareness? In case you didn't realize, as a melee (both mag and stam) you actually have to take risks in movement in order to make killing blows or take control over the fight. Come talk again when you play anything other than magsorc where you can fight from the safety of range. I only ever see you talk about magsorcs on the forum, usually posting nerf sorc memes or defending the class, so I highly doubt you do.

You engaged in a three-faction fight and were surprised to get shot in the back while fighting one enemy group. Think. Any other class would have killed you in that case, because you were reckless. Stamina characters could have critrushed in with shalks, Dawnbreakers and spin2win. Those would have killed not only you in an instant (remember Curse gives you a nice warning), but they would have killed your buddy as well. Maybe even that other group.
You effed up, you got killed, and now you wanna blame other classes for your incompetence and try to close your eyes to the dude (me) explaining why you lost. Lame. End of story.

Trian94

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Enable cp box is unchecked

stritzi wrote: »

show me that setup in no cp

Trian94 wrote: »

Bright throat+ alfiq + spring loaded infusion. Play around with glyphs as you like. Boom

i thought its about no cp.

Υes it is, but someone's said that it's enabled and I corrected them

thankyourat

Trian94 wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Yeah sure cause you need more than 2.6k spell dmg to deal damage if you have 35k+ magicka in light armour as a magsorc or magblade in a no cp environment, lmao. Get real.

are you talking about something like this?
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=160643

Sort of. Swap head and shoulders for pirate skeleton, go all arcane on jewelry, add another recovery glyph, swap mundus for atronach, the destro staff to nirnhoned or infused and look at the stats again. If that's not broken building, I'm batman. ( Dunno if I forgot about anything )

You can get the same stats on stamina by running bone pirate and hulking draugr while having higher burst damage and better mobility. (Magsorc excluded) a lot of damage sets are the same for light and medium armor. I’m confused at what point you are trying to make. Actually bone pirate fits better with stamina than BTB does with Magicka because you don’t need to focus on having a big magpool as stamina meaning you can run food with Stam recovery. You can also drop hulking for a set with more weapon damage something mag builds can’t do because they need the Magicka for better shields. Stamina has to sacrifice less than Magicka overall and are much easier to build.

Rianai

Put bone pirate and hulking draugr on a stam build and you get the same, if not even better stats (due to higher spell/wpn dmg on melee weapons).

Edit:
Magsorc: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=160633
Stamsorc: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=160634

Keep in mind that sorc passives favour magicka builds. This isn't the same for other classes, so stam actually ends up with better stats on those. (Also ignoring that building for wpn dmg is much more efficient for stam/noCP, so those builds are far from optimal and certainly not op.)

Trian94

I explained that the magicka stat is better for magicka ability damage than spell power. I also explained why bone pirate and hulking are not viable for stam in no cp in a previous comment. Look for it. I'll add something to it however. Have fun wearing pirate skeleton in medium armour and see your vigor ticks (vigor being the main heal) not exceed 800 lul

PhoenixGrey

Koensol wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Well, 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg. So 25k stam and 4k weapon dmg is roughly compareable dmg and healing to 40k mag and 2,5k spell dmg. And a 40k magicka build won't have much more than 2,5k spell dmg, unless going full glass cannon with zero sustain and tankyness.

Also i'm not aware about any special scaling of magicka skills. 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg applies to both stam and magicka skills as far as i know. The only exception are shields (excluding healing ward tho) and sorc pets - those don't scale with spell dmg at all and this is the main reason, why some mag builds - especially sorcs - tend to stack magicka instead of spell dmg. But stacking max magicka isn't better than stacking spell/wpn dmg on non shield builds and non-sorc shield builds only excel at dueling other mag builds, because those classes don't have any class shields and therefore rely solely on harness (and petsorc would still come out on top i guess).
I tried a max magicka stacking shield build on magblade (up to almost 45k mag, yes without CP) - and i dropped it quickly. More unconditional sustain/tankyness/heals/mobility are more valuable for solo open world than a bit more dmg and a bigger shield (that still melts under pressure of multiple opponents and is unsustainable against stam builds). And if i want to stalemate other magicka classes in a 1vs1 i can just spam cloak anyway

You are right that shieldstacking on non-magsorc class is garbage for no cp. I tried it as well. Conveniently though it fits the magsorc design perfectly well and makes sure they both hit hard and have a large ward size. The little they have to invest in health and resistances is neglible compared to the amount of damage they got from the changes.

I cant tell you how many times in a BG where I was fighting with my group and suddenly I literally get deleted in 2 seconds by 2 magsorc muppets sitting at max range stacking curse, executes and proccing their frags. That particular build had SnB backbar with 35k spell resist and still I just got shredded by +5k curses and 8k frags. Problem is most of the damage procs/hits at the same time in burst intervals, so you have little time to react to the suddrn loss in health. If it doesn't kill you their teammates will or the idiotic execute will proc from dots they didn't even cast and finish you off. I can't even describe how infuriating magsorcs currently are in BGs. They are constantly putting out craploads of unavoidable damage from range and when you try and take the fight to them to pressure them they pop a couple streaks and they are gone. Literally worse than stamblades who at least have to come into melee range to do their thing and are very susceptible to eating burst and AoE.

Please share your non cp bg mag sorc build which has 35k resists and 8k frags and enough sustain to streak twice after doing damage.

[snip]

[edited for non-constructive comment]

Rianai

As magblade i would love to have a heal that ticks for 800/s without having to give up my main defense. With or without PS

Trian94

Rianai wrote: »

As magblade i would love to have a heal that ticks for 800/s without having to give up my main defense. With or without PS

But you wouldn't like that to be your only heal along with forward momentum which proves my point. Also the build editor links you share prove my point. I'll explain in a few minutes cause I got to run to the store real quick

Trian94

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Well, 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg. So 25k stam and 4k weapon dmg is roughly compareable dmg and healing to 40k mag and 2,5k spell dmg. And a 40k magicka build won't have much more than 2,5k spell dmg, unless going full glass cannon with zero sustain and tankyness.

Also i'm not aware about any special scaling of magicka skills. 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg applies to both stam and magicka skills as far as i know. The only exception are shields (excluding healing ward tho) and sorc pets - those don't scale with spell dmg at all and this is the main reason, why some mag builds - especially sorcs - tend to stack magicka instead of spell dmg. But stacking max magicka isn't better than stacking spell/wpn dmg on non shield builds and non-sorc shield builds only excel at dueling other mag builds, because those classes don't have any class shields and therefore rely solely on harness (and petsorc would still come out on top i guess).
I tried a max magicka stacking shield build on magblade (up to almost 45k mag, yes without CP) - and i dropped it quickly. More unconditional sustain/tankyness/heals/mobility are more valuable for solo open world than a bit more dmg and a bigger shield (that still melts under pressure of multiple opponents and is unsustainable against stam builds). And if i want to stalemate other magicka classes in a 1vs1 i can just spam cloak anyway

You are right that shieldstacking on non-magsorc class is garbage for no cp. I tried it as well. Conveniently though it fits the magsorc design perfectly well and makes sure they both hit hard and have a large ward size. The little they have to invest in health and resistances is neglible compared to the amount of damage they got from the changes.

I cant tell you how many times in a BG where I was fighting with my group and suddenly I literally get deleted in 2 seconds by 2 magsorc muppets sitting at max range stacking curse, executes and proccing their frags. That particular build had SnB backbar with 35k spell resist and still I just got shredded by +5k curses and 8k frags. Problem is most of the damage procs/hits at the same time in burst intervals, so you have little time to react to the suddrn loss in health. If it doesn't kill you their teammates will or the idiotic execute will proc from dots they didn't even cast and finish you off. I can't even describe how infuriating magsorcs currently are in BGs. They are constantly putting out craploads of unavoidable damage from range and when you try and take the fight to them to pressure them they pop a couple streaks and they are gone. Literally worse than stamblades who at least have to come into melee range to do their thing and are very susceptible to eating burst and AoE.

Please share your non cp bg mag sorc build which has 35k resists and 8k frags and enough sustain to streak twice after doing damage.

What a whole lot of rubbish ! I am pretty you know that but stop misleading the rest of the potatoes in this forum

He meant his build has 35k spell resist and the magsorc guy hit him for 8k frags. Big yikes to you triggered boi

thankyourat

Trian94 wrote: »

I explained that the magicka stat is better for magicka ability damage than spell power. I also explained why bone pirate and hulking are not viable for stam in no cp in a previous comment. Look for it. I'll add something to it however. Have fun wearing pirate skeleton in medium armour and see your vigor ticks (vigor being the main heal) not exceed 800 lul

But that’s wrong spell damage is better than Magicka for magic damage abilities. Every 1 spell damage is equal to around 10.5 Magicka so a build with high spell damage will always hit harder than a build with higher max Magicka. The reason Magicka builds use max Magicka is for shields if you build for higher spell damage your damage shield will be weaker. It’s the same reason why Stam builds build for weapon damage because it effects healing. Weapon damage also has the benefit of being more damage than Magicka then add that melee weapons have a extra 300 weapon damage over staves. This is why Stam builds are so much more bursty than mag builds.

There are other things in the game besides pirate skeleton. Troll king is also OP and works great on stam builds. You can also equip sword and board and block damage reduction is the strongest defensive ability in the game. Just looking at the classes every stamina class is better than their Magicka counterpart (again magsorc excluded) also I seen your earlier post where you attempted a explanation, but the information you put out was wrong.

Trian94

thankyourat wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

I explained that the magicka stat is better for magicka ability damage than spell power. I also explained why bone pirate and hulking are not viable for stam in no cp in a previous comment. Look for it. I'll add something to it however. Have fun wearing pirate skeleton in medium armour and see your vigor ticks (vigor being the main heal) not exceed 800 lul

But that’s wrong spell damage is better than Magicka for magic damage abilities. Every 1 spell damage is equal to around 10.5 Magicka so a build with high spell damage will always hit harder than a build with higher max Magicka. The reason Magicka builds use max Magicka is for shields if you build for higher spell damage your damage shield will be weaker. It’s the same reason why Stam builds build for weapon damage because it effects healing. Weapon damage also has the benefit of being more damage than Magicka then add that melee weapons have a extra 300 weapon damage over staves. This is why Stam builds are so much more bursty than mag builds.

There are other things in the game besides pirate skeleton. Troll king is also OP and works great on stam builds. You can also equip sword and board and block damage reduction is the strongest defensive ability in the game. Just looking at the classes every stamina class is better than their Magicka counterpart (again magsorc excluded) also I seen your earlier post where you attempted a explanation, but the information you put out was wrong.

Then pls explain why ever since jewelry crafting was introduced bis builds for pve were with arcane jewelry with spell power instead of infused with spell power. (Apart from nowadays since everyone's in bloodthirsty.)

Trian94

@Rianai ok so the difference in dawnbreaker tooltip, for example, between your linked build and mine (heavy armour) is 500-600 and my stamina is about 10k lower. Also the problem with your build is obvious mate. Healing is going to be *** (even with crit surge) due to vigor being the main heal, healing in medium is *** in no cp especially on stamsorc, pirate skeleton debuff and when there's a down time you're going to get bursted like crazy. Now if you choose to run rally instead of momentum you'll have to run shuffle which can't be sustained in no cp. You might want to run lingering pots, sure you can pull it off in a group since you can carry each other but try to run it solo. Purely unplayable

oxygen_thief

Trian94 wrote: »

Sort of. Swap head and shoulders for pirate skeleton, go all arcane on jewelry, add another recovery glyph, swap mundus for atronach, the destro staff to nirnhoned or infused and look at the stats again. If that's not broken building, I'm batman. ( Dunno if I forgot about anything )

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=160643

i dont like low hp, stamina and resistances. what is a sense of pumping magicka so high? it doesnt hit like a truck and low hp value trims the shields anyway.

Waffennacht

Trian94 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

I explained that the magicka stat is better for magicka ability damage than spell power. I also explained why bone pirate and hulking are not viable for stam in no cp in a previous comment. Look for it. I'll add something to it however. Have fun wearing pirate skeleton in medium armour and see your vigor ticks (vigor being the main heal) not exceed 800 lul

But that’s wrong spell damage is better than Magicka for magic damage abilities. Every 1 spell damage is equal to around 10.5 Magicka so a build with high spell damage will always hit harder than a build with higher max Magicka. The reason Magicka builds use max Magicka is for shields if you build for higher spell damage your damage shield will be weaker. It’s the same reason why Stam builds build for weapon damage because it effects healing. Weapon damage also has the benefit of being more damage than Magicka then add that melee weapons have a extra 300 weapon damage over staves. This is why Stam builds are so much more bursty than mag builds.

There are other things in the game besides pirate skeleton. Troll king is also OP and works great on stam builds. You can also equip sword and board and block damage reduction is the strongest defensive ability in the game. Just looking at the classes every stamina class is better than their Magicka counterpart (again magsorc excluded) also I seen your earlier post where you attempted a explanation, but the information you put out was wrong.

Then pls explain why ever since jewelry crafting was introduced bis builds for pve were with arcane jewelry with spell power instead of infused with spell power. (Apart from nowadays since everyone's in bloodthirsty.)

Because when it was introduced you had % based max resource modifiers

You had 10% max mag from race, +max mag modifiers from say innerlight/bound armaments, and CP % modifiers.

There was a greater % gain by boosting the base max resource.

Then there's the factor that Shields only scaled to max mag, meaning spell damage was useless for defense while max mag was useful for both offense and defense.

Now that, especially in no CP, there's more modifiers affecting spell damage than there is max mag, it's more valuable for most builds to stack spell damage.

At the moment, 10.5 Stam or mag is equal to 1 weapon damage or spell damage. Abilities are not weighted more favorably towards max mag, but rather spell damage

Trian94

Waffennacht wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

I explained that the magicka stat is better for magicka ability damage than spell power. I also explained why bone pirate and hulking are not viable for stam in no cp in a previous comment. Look for it. I'll add something to it however. Have fun wearing pirate skeleton in medium armour and see your vigor ticks (vigor being the main heal) not exceed 800 lul

But that’s wrong spell damage is better than Magicka for magic damage abilities. Every 1 spell damage is equal to around 10.5 Magicka so a build with high spell damage will always hit harder than a build with higher max Magicka. The reason Magicka builds use max Magicka is for shields if you build for higher spell damage your damage shield will be weaker. It’s the same reason why Stam builds build for weapon damage because it effects healing. Weapon damage also has the benefit of being more damage than Magicka then add that melee weapons have a extra 300 weapon damage over staves. This is why Stam builds are so much more bursty than mag builds.

There are other things in the game besides pirate skeleton. Troll king is also OP and works great on stam builds. You can also equip sword and board and block damage reduction is the strongest defensive ability in the game. Just looking at the classes every stamina class is better than their Magicka counterpart (again magsorc excluded) also I seen your earlier post where you attempted a explanation, but the information you put out was wrong.

Then pls explain why ever since jewelry crafting was introduced bis builds for pve were with arcane jewelry with spell power instead of infused with spell power. (Apart from nowadays since everyone's in bloodthirsty.)

Because when it was introduced you had % based max resource modifiers

You had 10% max mag from race, +max mag modifiers from say innerlight/bound armaments, and CP % modifiers.

There was a greater % gain by boosting the base max resource.

Then there's the factor that Shields only scaled to max mag, meaning spell damage was useless for defense while max mag was useful for both offense and defense.

Now that, especially in no CP, there's more modifiers affecting spell damage than there is max mag, it's more valuable for most builds to stack spell damage.

At the moment, 10.5 Stam or mag is equal to 1 weapon damage or spell damage. Abilities are not weighted more favorably towards max mag, but rather spell damage

The race passive changes didn't affect the max mag you could reach in anyway. Literally logged in before wrathstone came live and after and my stats were a bit higher by a tiny margin. Also sets that exist with Elsweyr didn't exist before so now you can push for more max stat rather than spell damage in PvP which is also more beneficial.

Trian94

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Sort of. Swap head and shoulders for pirate skeleton, go all arcane on jewelry, add another recovery glyph, swap mundus for atronach, the destro staff to nirnhoned or infused and look at the stats again. If that's not broken building, I'm batman. ( Dunno if I forgot about anything )

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=160643

i dont like low hp, stamina and resistances. what is a sense of pumping magicka so high? it doesnt hit like a truck and low hp value trims the shields anyway.

Well you might not like it and it might not fit your playstyle but it's close to the stuff that most people run nowadays and it hits like a truck with zero effort into building. Which is my point.

Edit: check rianais build link. Take these stats and if you add continuous attack you get 3k+ spell power and 2k recoveries as well, plus you can heavy attack resto. Another thing I forgot, gl trying to restore stamina by heavy attacking in medium - this goes out to everyone who encourages to run the stamina equivalent of alfiq-bright throat

oxygen_thief

Trian94 wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Sort of. Swap head and shoulders for pirate skeleton, go all arcane on jewelry, add another recovery glyph, swap mundus for atronach, the destro staff to nirnhoned or infused and look at the stats again. If that's not broken building, I'm batman. ( Dunno if I forgot about anything )

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=160643

i dont like low hp, stamina and resistances. what is a sense of pumping magicka so high? it doesnt hit like a truck and low hp value trims the shields anyway.

Well you might not like it and it might not fit your playstyle but it's close to the stuff that most people run nowadays and it hits like a truck with zero effort into building. Which is my point.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=81158

you can have same tooltips with higher penetration and healing ticks even without pet

thankyourat

Trian94 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

I explained that the magicka stat is better for magicka ability damage than spell power. I also explained why bone pirate and hulking are not viable for stam in no cp in a previous comment. Look for it. I'll add something to it however. Have fun wearing pirate skeleton in medium armour and see your vigor ticks (vigor being the main heal) not exceed 800 lul

But that’s wrong spell damage is better than Magicka for magic damage abilities. Every 1 spell damage is equal to around 10.5 Magicka so a build with high spell damage will always hit harder than a build with higher max Magicka. The reason Magicka builds use max Magicka is for shields if you build for higher spell damage your damage shield will be weaker. It’s the same reason why Stam builds build for weapon damage because it effects healing. Weapon damage also has the benefit of being more damage than Magicka then add that melee weapons have a extra 300 weapon damage over staves. This is why Stam builds are so much more bursty than mag builds.

There are other things in the game besides pirate skeleton. Troll king is also OP and works great on stam builds. You can also equip sword and board and block damage reduction is the strongest defensive ability in the game. Just looking at the classes every stamina class is better than their Magicka counterpart (again magsorc excluded) also I seen your earlier post where you attempted a explanation, but the information you put out was wrong.

Then pls explain why ever since jewelry crafting was introduced bis builds for pve were with arcane jewelry with spell power instead of infused with spell power. (Apart from nowadays since everyone's in bloodthirsty.)

That’s due to a couple reasons. One is no matter what you do on mag your spell damage is going to be relatively low when compared to a stamina build because your armor or your weapons don’t give you added spell damage like stamina does. The other which relates to the first one is it’s a lot easier for mag builds to get a respectable mag pool. arcane jewelry allows magbuilds to take advantage of the Magicka multipliers available to them. On a magbuild since you don’t have all those spell damage boosts that stamina has to maximize you damage you need to balance out max mag and spell damage. Where as since Stam builds can easily get 5000 WD it’s no point to focus on their Stam pool as much. a magbuild with 40k max mag and 3k SD will hit harder than a build with 50k max mag and 2k SD. At the end of the day it’s still 1 SD equals 10.5 Magicka.

Derra

The sorc setups here by people that obviously don´t play sorc is the best comedy i´ve seen on the forums this year.

PhoenixGrey

Trian94 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Well, 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg. So 25k stam and 4k weapon dmg is roughly compareable dmg and healing to 40k mag and 2,5k spell dmg. And a 40k magicka build won't have much more than 2,5k spell dmg, unless going full glass cannon with zero sustain and tankyness.

Also i'm not aware about any special scaling of magicka skills. 1k mag/stam ~ 100 spell/weapon dmg applies to both stam and magicka skills as far as i know. The only exception are shields (excluding healing ward tho) and sorc pets - those don't scale with spell dmg at all and this is the main reason, why some mag builds - especially sorcs - tend to stack magicka instead of spell dmg. But stacking max magicka isn't better than stacking spell/wpn dmg on non shield builds and non-sorc shield builds only excel at dueling other mag builds, because those classes don't have any class shields and therefore rely solely on harness (and petsorc would still come out on top i guess).
I tried a max magicka stacking shield build on magblade (up to almost 45k mag, yes without CP) - and i dropped it quickly. More unconditional sustain/tankyness/heals/mobility are more valuable for solo open world than a bit more dmg and a bigger shield (that still melts under pressure of multiple opponents and is unsustainable against stam builds). And if i want to stalemate other magicka classes in a 1vs1 i can just spam cloak anyway

You are right that shieldstacking on non-magsorc class is garbage for no cp. I tried it as well. Conveniently though it fits the magsorc design perfectly well and makes sure they both hit hard and have a large ward size. The little they have to invest in health and resistances is neglible compared to the amount of damage they got from the changes.

I cant tell you how many times in a BG where I was fighting with my group and suddenly I literally get deleted in 2 seconds by 2 magsorc muppets sitting at max range stacking curse, executes and proccing their frags. That particular build had SnB backbar with 35k spell resist and still I just got shredded by +5k curses and 8k frags. Problem is most of the damage procs/hits at the same time in burst intervals, so you have little time to react to the suddrn loss in health. If it doesn't kill you their teammates will or the idiotic execute will proc from dots they didn't even cast and finish you off. I can't even describe how infuriating magsorcs currently are in BGs. They are constantly putting out craploads of unavoidable damage from range and when you try and take the fight to them to pressure them they pop a couple streaks and they are gone. Literally worse than stamblades who at least have to come into melee range to do their thing and are very susceptible to eating burst and AoE.

Please share your non cp bg mag sorc build which has 35k resists and 8k frags and enough sustain to streak twice after doing damage.

What a whole lot of rubbish ! I am pretty you know that but stop misleading the rest of the potatoes in this forum

He meant his build has 35k spell resist and the magsorc guy hit him for 8k frags. Big yikes to you triggered boi

I see. my apologies !

Trian94

thankyourat wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

I explained that the magicka stat is better for magicka ability damage than spell power. I also explained why bone pirate and hulking are not viable for stam in no cp in a previous comment. Look for it. I'll add something to it however. Have fun wearing pirate skeleton in medium armour and see your vigor ticks (vigor being the main heal) not exceed 800 lul

But that’s wrong spell damage is better than Magicka for magic damage abilities. Every 1 spell damage is equal to around 10.5 Magicka so a build with high spell damage will always hit harder than a build with higher max Magicka. The reason Magicka builds use max Magicka is for shields if you build for higher spell damage your damage shield will be weaker. It’s the same reason why Stam builds build for weapon damage because it effects healing. Weapon damage also has the benefit of being more damage than Magicka then add that melee weapons have a extra 300 weapon damage over staves. This is why Stam builds are so much more bursty than mag builds.

There are other things in the game besides pirate skeleton. Troll king is also OP and works great on stam builds. You can also equip sword and board and block damage reduction is the strongest defensive ability in the game. Just looking at the classes every stamina class is better than their Magicka counterpart (again magsorc excluded) also I seen your earlier post where you attempted a explanation, but the information you put out was wrong.

Then pls explain why ever since jewelry crafting was introduced bis builds for pve were with arcane jewelry with spell power instead of infused with spell power. (Apart from nowadays since everyone's in bloodthirsty.)

That’s due to a couple reasons. One is no matter what you do on mag your spell damage is going to be relatively low when compared to a stamina build because your armor or your weapons don’t give you spell damage like stamina does. The other which relates to the first one is it’s a lot easier for mag builds to get a respectable mag pool. arcane jewelry allows magbuilds to take advantage of the Magicka multipliers available to them. On a magbuild since you don’t have all those spell damage boosts that stamina has to maximize you damage you need to balance out max mag and spell damage. Where as since Stam builds can easily get 5000 WD it’s no point to focus on their Stam pool as much. a magbuild with 40k max mag and 3k SD will hit harder than a build with 50k max mag and 2k SD. At the end of the day it’s still 1 SD equals 10.5 Magicka.

There's a reason why staves don't give spell dmg equal to the weapon damage stamina 2h weapons give. Because for a standard magicka build right now the go-to is light armour and that gives you EVERYTHING - recovery critical penetration spell resistance. Stamina chars have to take into account 1. the stam pool to not be too low so they don't run out by cc breaking and casting their skills 2. weapon damage so it's high enough to do damage 3.the choice of armour because choosing ones means you'll lose the benefits of the other (not including the weapons here cause I think the variations and benefits for each staff and 2h weapon is well designed)

Does magicka have to consider things like that? No. Cause building is too easy. Build for max mag with average spell dmg, mind your recovery a bit, destro resto all good and rock a monster set that you don't get any drawback from cause you got healing ward and resto ult costs around 120 ult (even tho it's nerfed). So bright throat and loaded infusion is a no brainer. (Pirate skeleton is also the magicka signature set nowadays but that's something for another thread.)

I'm aware that 6000 weapon damage stam builds aren't ok but neither is this.

Seraphayel

Derra wrote: »

The sorc setups here by people that obviously don´t play sorc is the best comedy i´ve seen on the forums this year.

Don’t you agree that a lot of MagSorcs are downplaying how amazing they are / can be? I mean there is basically no debate about MagSorc being the best or at least Top 3 of PvP specs in game. They have everything and more than that, insane burst, insane mobility and insane defensive / self-healing capabilities. No other spec offers this well-rounded setup. Even overperforming Stamina builds don’t offer MagSorcs versatility.

I know that Sorcs don’t want to get nerfed, totally understand that. But to be more realistic to what MagSorcs are capable of would be really... helpful in this debate.

Rianai

Trian94 wrote: »

@Rianai ok so the difference in dawnbreaker tooltip, for example, between your linked build and mine (heavy armour) is 500-600 and my stamina is about 10k lower. Also the problem with your build is obvious mate. Healing is going to be *** (even with crit surge) due to vigor being the main heal, healing in medium is *** in no cp especially on stamsorc, pirate skeleton debuff and when there's a down time you're going to get bursted like crazy. Now if you choose to run rally instead of momentum you'll have to run shuffle which can't be sustained in no cp. You might want to run lingering pots, sure you can pull it off in a group since you can carry each other but try to run it solo. Purely unplayable

Ofc the linked stam sorc build is crap, i agree (the linked mag build isn't optimal either). But the stats are great, no? Same stats as those "op" magicka stats.
Your reasons why the builds is bad have nothing to do with the stats. Which is exactly my point. Skills and passives are what matter the most. Those are in favour of magicka builds when it comes to sorc. But this isn't true for the other classes.

Others have already covered the "scaling" topic. I'll just add that you can test this easily by swapping between mage and apprentice mundus on a magicka build without changing anything else - the apprentice mundus will usually result in slightly more dmg/healing (without CP/continuous, with major sorcery).

Edit: I had a much easier time finding a build for magblade in the past. Never tested so much different setups than after Elsweyr and i'm still not 100% satisfied.

bardx86

Derra wrote: »

The sorc setups here by people that obviously don´t play sorc is the best comedy i´ve seen on the forums this year.

No joke. I wouldn't call any of these builds sufficient for no cp.

Waffennacht

Trian94 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

I explained that the magicka stat is better for magicka ability damage than spell power. I also explained why bone pirate and hulking are not viable for stam in no cp in a previous comment. Look for it. I'll add something to it however. Have fun wearing pirate skeleton in medium armour and see your vigor ticks (vigor being the main heal) not exceed 800 lul

But that’s wrong spell damage is better than Magicka for magic damage abilities. Every 1 spell damage is equal to around 10.5 Magicka so a build with high spell damage will always hit harder than a build with higher max Magicka. The reason Magicka builds use max Magicka is for shields if you build for higher spell damage your damage shield will be weaker. It’s the same reason why Stam builds build for weapon damage because it effects healing. Weapon damage also has the benefit of being more damage than Magicka then add that melee weapons have a extra 300 weapon damage over staves. This is why Stam builds are so much more bursty than mag builds.

There are other things in the game besides pirate skeleton. Troll king is also OP and works great on stam builds. You can also equip sword and board and block damage reduction is the strongest defensive ability in the game. Just looking at the classes every stamina class is better than their Magicka counterpart (again magsorc excluded) also I seen your earlier post where you attempted a explanation, but the information you put out was wrong.

Then pls explain why ever since jewelry crafting was introduced bis builds for pve were with arcane jewelry with spell power instead of infused with spell power. (Apart from nowadays since everyone's in bloodthirsty.)

Because when it was introduced you had % based max resource modifiers

You had 10% max mag from race, +max mag modifiers from say innerlight/bound armaments, and CP % modifiers.

There was a greater % gain by boosting the base max resource.

Then there's the factor that Shields only scaled to max mag, meaning spell damage was useless for defense while max mag was useful for both offense and defense.

Now that, especially in no CP, there's more modifiers affecting spell damage than there is max mag, it's more valuable for most builds to stack spell damage.

At the moment, 10.5 Stam or mag is equal to 1 weapon damage or spell damage. Abilities are not weighted more favorably towards max mag, but rather spell damage

The race passive changes didn't affect the max mag you could reach in anyway. Literally logged in before wrathstone came live and after and my stats were a bit higher by a tiny margin. Also sets that exist with Elsweyr didn't exist before so now you can push for more max stat rather than spell damage in PvP which is also more beneficial.

The race change made it where you don't have to build for max mag to get that max mag. Now you get that set amount no matter what, meaning it's more valuable to get spell damage as it curves better.

Before to make use of the race passive you needed higher base max mag, now to get that same amount, you don't

Derra

Seraphayel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The sorc setups here by people that obviously don´t play sorc is the best comedy i´ve seen on the forums this year.

Don’t you agree that a lot of MagSorcs are downplaying how amazing they are / can be? I mean there is basically no debate about MagSorc being the best or at least Top 3 of PvP specs in game. They have everything and more than that, insane burst, insane mobility and insane defensive / self-healing capabilities. No other spec offers this well-rounded setup. Even overperforming Stamina builds don’t offer MagSorcs versatility.

I know that Sorcs don’t want to get nerfed, totally understand that. But to be more realistic to what MagSorcs are capable of would be really... helpful in this debate.

I think i´d nerf two things about sorc at the moment.
Shieldstacking and pets.

A sorc that´s stacking shields and/or running matriarch is atm definetly overperforming compared to a large portion of the classes.

I don´t think a sorc that´s not using one or both of these crutches is overperforming. Still in the upper half of pvp classes depending on activity but not neccessarily at the top.

I disagree with the people finding sorc dmg too high (hyperbole statement like 2 seconds nukes and the likes). The class only has burst dmg. If the burst isn´t dangerous the class has no point. It´s easily avoidable if you pay attention to two debuffs placed on you and a slow moving projectile.
I find sorcs (due to having played on extensively) to be one of the least dangerous classes regardless on what class i´m on because they´re predictable in 99% of the cases.

I don´t think that people are neccesarily downplaying the class either - a lot of people are still struggeling with sorc. They´re struggeling while running matriarch and 2 shields with armormaster on backbar.
This is imo due to the beforementioned easy defense against sorc. Good players are able to read and outplay offense of even petsorcs that aren´t atleast above average. Then people get locked on defense and get either broken or make a mistake in the only hard part about sorc play - combining defense and offense - and die.

Imo sorc carries players to some extend and lets them compete a bit above their level (a bit more with pets nowadays). But once they meet someone exceeding that point the class has a sharper dropoff than other classes and will go from competing to being stomped without touching the enemys health.

Trian94

Derra wrote: »

The sorc setups here by people that obviously don´t play sorc is the best comedy i´ve seen on the forums this year.

I mained magicka sorc before I moved on to stamsorc and parked it for pve for good cause it was easy and boring back then. Nowadays getting reward tier 3 solo in no cp with the outdated spinner and lich set up isn't even hard so just... LUL.

Mind you, If let's say 10/10 is my skill on stamsorc my magsorc skill right now is 0.5/10.

Trian94

Derra wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The sorc setups here by people that obviously don´t play sorc is the best comedy i´ve seen on the forums this year.

Don’t you agree that a lot of MagSorcs are downplaying how amazing they are / can be? I mean there is basically no debate about MagSorc being the best or at least Top 3 of PvP specs in game. They have everything and more than that, insane burst, insane mobility and insane defensive / self-healing capabilities. No other spec offers this well-rounded setup. Even overperforming Stamina builds don’t offer MagSorcs versatility.

I know that Sorcs don’t want to get nerfed, totally understand that. But to be more realistic to what MagSorcs are capable of would be really... helpful in this debate.

I think i´d nerf two things about sorc at the moment.
Shieldstacking and pets.

A sorc that´s stacking shields and/or running matriarch is atm definetly overperforming compared to a large portion of the classes.

I don´t think a sorc that´s not using one or both of these crutches is overperforming. Still in the upper half of pvp classes depending on activity but not neccessarily at the top.

I disagree with the people finding sorc dmg too high (hyperbole statement like 2 seconds nukes and the likes). The class only has burst dmg. If the burst isn´t dangerous the class has no point. It´s easily avoidable if you pay attention to two debuffs placed on you and a slow moving projectile.
I find sorcs (due to having played on extensively) to be one of the least dangerous classes regardless on what class i´m on because they´re predictable in 99% of the cases.

I agree on the pet nerf but dude I ain't crazy when I say that every pug sorc in cyrodiil hits twice as hard ever since Elsweyr. I got hit by a 5,5k curse at capped spell resistance which goes up to 7k+ on crit. That's not right.

oxygen_thief

Derra wrote: »

I find sorcs (due to having played on extensively) to be one of the least dangerous classes regardless on what class i´m on because they´re predictable in 99% of the cases.

i dont understand this "insane burst" too. people block, dodge or los on the 3thd second of curse and there is no burst at all