We feared you'd leave addons unable to read guild history. Don't make it permanent please.

therift

I'm an officer in three major trading guilds on console, handling accounting.

I can imagine the total chaos PC trade guild GMs are going through. I can imagine it all too well.

If you're a console player, and you're experiencing some scadenfreude from the sudden loss of add-ons for PC, you're failing to grasp the catastrophic effects on a trade guild - or nearly any guild - when the accounting system is suddenly, without warning, removed from the game.

If the deposit history and roster history of the base game guild UI were to be similarly disabled, console trade guilds would cease to function as going concerns. We would have absolutely no way to know who has paid dues/made donations... no way to know who has been credited and who has not... in short, the financial transactions and record keeping used to amass the weekly bid would collapse. The guild would run blindly on uncertain donations for a couple of bid cycles before the bleeding of guild members and income would force a collapse.

It's not the disabling of add-ons ipso facto that is causing the crisis... it is the removal of the accounting system upon which PC trade guilds are built. There is no overnight, instant replacement. There is no back-up method that can be easily switched on. There is only blood, toil, tears, and sweat.

So if you're on console, and you think this can't happen to you, revise your thinking. ZoS could just as easily disable the base game guild UI, and we'd be right where PC is right now.

iris56

Zos has had a habit of slapping bandaids on server problems for a while now. It hasn't been great, but I've been okay with waiting while they figure things out. This is the first thing to really make me pause and question all the money I spend. I enjoy trading, most of my friends enjoy trading. I don't personally run a guild, but even with addons it takes a ton of volunteer effort. The people who do that are great and deserve our praise and support. This change is terrible for them and I don't know how trade guilds will manage without requiring direct donations. People are resilent and I'm sure things will adapt, but I hate this "we can't fix this so we will throw a temporary bandaid at it" attitude. If only the bandaids were actually temporary.....

NorthernNightmare

Hey
ZOS

StabbityDoom

therift wrote: »

I'm an officer in three major trading guilds on console, handling accounting.

I can imagine the total chaos PC trade guild GMs are going through. I can imagine it all too well.

If you're a console player, and you're experiencing some scadenfreude from the sudden loss of add-ons for PC, you're failing to grasp the catastrophic effects on a trade guild - or nearly any guild - when the accounting system is suddenly, without warning, removed from the game.

If the deposit history and roster history of the base game guild UI were to be similarly disabled, console trade guilds would cease to function as going concerns. We would have absolutely no way to know who has paid dues/made donations... no way to know who has been credited and who has not... in short, the financial transactions and record keeping used to amass the weekly bid would collapse. The guild would run blindly on uncertain donations for a couple of bid cycles before the bleeding of guild members and income would force a collapse.

It's not the disabling of add-ons ipso facto that is causing the crisis... it is the removal of the accounting system upon which PC trade guilds are built. There is no overnight, instant replacement. There is no back-up method that can be easily switched on. There is only blood, toil, tears, and sweat.

So if you're on console, and you think this can't happen to you, revise your thinking. ZoS could just as easily disable the base game guild UI, and we'd be right where PC is right now.

Thank you! You get it.

therift

D

StabbityDoom wrote: »

therift wrote: »

I'm an officer in three major trading guilds on console, handling accounting.

I can imagine the total chaos PC trade guild GMs are going through. I can imagine it all too well.

If you're a console player, and you're experiencing some scadenfreude from the sudden loss of add-ons for PC, you're failing to grasp the catastrophic effects on a trade guild - or nearly any guild - when the accounting system is suddenly, without warning, removed from the game.

If the deposit history and roster history of the base game guild UI were to be similarly disabled, console trade guilds would cease to function as going concerns. We would have absolutely no way to know who has paid dues/made donations... no way to know who has been credited and who has not... in short, the financial transactions and record keeping used to amass the weekly bid would collapse. The guild would run blindly on uncertain donations for a couple of bid cycles before the bleeding of guild members and income would force a collapse.

It's not the disabling of add-ons ipso facto that is causing the crisis... it is the removal of the accounting system upon which PC trade guilds are built. There is no overnight, instant replacement. There is no back-up method that can be easily switched on. There is only blood, toil, tears, and sweat.

So if you're on console, and you think this can't happen to you, revise your thinking. ZoS could just as easily disable the base game guild UI, and we'd be right where PC is right now.

Thank you! You get it.

Some trade GMs and officers on console have been following this thread. We had a discussion last night on what we might do if guild histories on console were to be disabled... and each of the proposed work-arounds introduce so many attendant issues that the conclusion was there is no via work-around, even with advance planning for a 'what-if' scenario.

The consensus seemed to be just give up and close. At least the demand for hours and hours of donated time would go away as well.

Kidgangster101

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Because it seems like you are being very sarcastic instead of trying to work together to get zos to fix a major problem with this game.

Your attitude is not "working together to all have the same advantages". It's purely "I don't have it therefore you shouldn't have it either".
Furthermore, while I wouldn't mind console players having access to addons, I don't see why I should team up with them for any sort of "fight for justice". Playing ESO on console is a choice they made, I don't understand why anyone would make such a choice but then again, millions of people made the choice to play on console with the full knowledge that they would have no addons and also with the full knowledge of what ESO vanilla UI looks like (there were 15 months between PC launch and console launch).
You don't hear us PC players complaining that we don't play on our couch, on our 42' screen, or that a PC is more expensive than a console, and then call it unfair. We made a choice, so did console players. You have your couch, we have our addons.
I wouldn't play ESO even 10 minutes without addons.

Again with this entitlement PC players have. I COULD play on PC, but choose to play on console because of the cost effectiveness. I would rather spend 400ish dollars every 4-6 years to support a hobby I have then to pay 2000 dollars for an initial gaming computer and then about 300-800 a year to keep updating said computer to keep it running smooth. You can also hook your computer up to your 42" tv..... We have the technology to do so, so if you don't use said technology that is your problem not mine.

PlayStation alone as of December 2018 sold almost 100million dollars in just console sales. That's not even what Xbox did. That proves that console gaming is very strong and should be treated as such, you are not a better player on this game just because you play on PC.

And as for my attitude of "I don't have these add-ons so why should you" attitude it is because of players like you that think you are entitled to it just for playing on PC. Not every pc player is like this and have stated that these things you guys rely on really help improve the in game experience. Those players understand that for a game to succeed it needs to keep improving or it just dies off, but yet there's ways to improve the game without your add-ons and some people sit here and cry "don't take away my add-ons" rather than saying "at least add them to your core game because it made the game run smoothly".

If this add-on helped you so much and you say this system doesn't allow you to do certain things, how do you think console players are doing it without that add-on?

Have you ever thought why they changed their game model? When it launched on PC it was a mandatory subscription based game. They realized that it wasn't selling enough subs and they took the micro transactions approach and ported it to console to "cash grab" as many people as possible. If they didn't port over to console and change to micro transactions we might not be sitting here having this conversation right now because eso might have just died within a few years due to lack of players.

So yes again PC players have a very unfair advantage over console players, no not all console players choose to not use a PC it is just more expensive and a lot of people don't have nor want to invest money that it takes to keep a pc updated, yes if we worked together rather than fighting each other about silly things that could improve the game of course zos won't improve their current game, in conclussion I mean what I said about working together but it just seems impossible when you have people saying they are entitled to run features that aren't part of the core game (that other games ban you for using if you.get caught or admit to using them).

Kidgangster101

DeadlyHammer wrote: »

All the people on here that are acting like losing this function is no big deal, and think people are just complaining over not having MM function have obviously never run a guild or helped run a guild in this game. The guild member and bank histories are about so much more than anything to do with pricing or sales in our stores. In fact, I could easily live without that part. Its about the ability to track invaluable and necessary information that guild leaders need to account for guild donations and raffle sales for their traders. Most if not all guilds with traders have some kind of fundraisers and dues for their guildies to pay for the trader the guild obtains. The guilds would not have enough gold to pay for the traders if the majority of their guildies were "roster sitters" who did not contribute. Guild member and bank history allows guilds to see who deposits gold to the guild when and how much to monitor their level of contributions. Many have weekly sales amounts as part of their allowed requirements to stay in guild and the only way to reasonably track that is with an addon like MM.
All we are asking for is the basic functions we need to keep our guilds afloat by being able to continue taking donations and sell raffle tickets and track them.With the guild trader system the way it is that guilds must be able to earn the gold required for their trader bids; then it is unreasonable to eliminate the very thing that allows us to do so in the first place.

So how does console players run a trader guild right now without the add-on if it can't be done like you say? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

But the current system is so amazing right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

RinaldoGandolphi

They need to remove access to the entire game api, Lua scripting and the whole thing. I’m talking completely doing away with addons on pc all together.

A part of their performance issues on the server can be traced back to the game api, lua, and addons. They addons are constantly hitting the server for message requests and I have talked at length about in other threads why their choice tcp is a poor one.

Remove addons, lua, and the api, remove most of the server side checks and buy an anti cheat like battleeye and 90% of their performance issues would go away. Cyrodiil would be playable, trials would be buttery smooth. Won’t happen though despite the fact as someone who used over 70 addons myself the game was quite playable without them.

Fiktius

iris56 wrote: »

Zos has had a habit of slapping bandaids on server problems for a while now. It hasn't been great, but I've been okay with waiting while they figure things out. This is the first thing to really make me pause and question all the money I spend. I enjoy trading, most of my friends enjoy trading. I don't personally run a guild, but even with addons it takes a ton of volunteer effort. The people who do that are great and deserve our praise and support. This change is terrible for them and I don't know how trade guilds will manage without requiring direct donations. People are resilent and I'm sure things will adapt, but I hate this "we can't fix this so we will throw a temporary bandaid at it" attitude. If only the bandaids were actually temporary.....

^ I can relate on this so well. I am usually very tolerant person and I keep thinking that there are still reasons which keeps me playing the game and trading is one of those major reasons why I'm still here:
As a trader & crafter, my crafting bag has been such a QOL feature for me and to me it's hard to even think that I would play without it and keep my usual trading type running normally. So that has been one major reason why I've had my ESO + sub active. However ZOS way to deal with guild history and disabling it without any kind of warning made me reconsider my way to see how much is it worth to continuing supporting this game by keeping sub active.

I'm running 3 trade guilds on PC EU server and since I have no way this week to check out who reached requirements and who did not, I did announce this week being "free" across all my guilds and at the next week we will adjust & adapt, depending how well manually viewing guild bank history log will help at the following week.
HOWEVER since apparently addons will not be still able to read guild history, cutting out usage of ATT and SGT is a major annoyance to me and this was the point when I went and canceled my ESO + subscription yesterday. I've got enough, I'm not supporting this madness.

therift

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

DeadlyHammer wrote: »

All the people on here that are acting like losing this function is no big deal, and think people are just complaining over not having MM function have obviously never run a guild or helped run a guild in this game. The guild member and bank histories are about so much more than anything to do with pricing or sales in our stores. In fact, I could easily live without that part. Its about the ability to track invaluable and necessary information that guild leaders need to account for guild donations and raffle sales for their traders. Most if not all guilds with traders have some kind of fundraisers and dues for their guildies to pay for the trader the guild obtains. The guilds would not have enough gold to pay for the traders if the majority of their guildies were "roster sitters" who did not contribute. Guild member and bank history allows guilds to see who deposits gold to the guild when and how much to monitor their level of contributions. Many have weekly sales amounts as part of their allowed requirements to stay in guild and the only way to reasonably track that is with an addon like MM.
All we are asking for is the basic functions we need to keep our guilds afloat by being able to continue taking donations and sell raffle tickets and track them.With the guild trader system the way it is that guilds must be able to earn the gold required for their trader bids; then it is unreasonable to eliminate the very thing that allows us to do so in the first place.

So how does console players run a trader guild right now without the add-on if it can't be done like you say? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

But the current system is so amazing right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Permit me to enlighten you:

1) There is no house cut transaction history on console, so the concept of running a trade guild based on house cut, which is made possible by the analytics of PC add-ons, is impossible on console. That eliminates one of three possible ways to fund trade bids for console.

2) Of the remaining two methods - Dues/Donations and Fundraisers - Dues/Donations rely on the Deposit History log in the Guild Trader UI while Fundraisers (e.g. Raffles) rely on third party tracking, such as pencil and paper (or MS Excel, or a smartphone app).

3) Dues/Donations method is nearly universal on console because it generates a chronological log in the Guild UI. To make use of this log without add-ons, we console officers must:
1. Look up most recent promoted guild member in Roster History
2. Switch to Deposit History and look up most recent gold deposit posted after the most recently promoted guild member.
3. Switch to Roster and search for the guild member who made the most recent uncredited deposit.
4. Promote one or more times based on Dues policy or Promote/Edit Note for Donations policy
5. Switch back to Roster History to verify promotion was posted
6. Switch back to Deposit History to identify next most recent deposit
7. Repeat steps 1 through 6. Sometimes there may be several pages of deposits to record

4) Any policy, promotion, non-gold deposit, fundraiser, etc that cannot be tracked via Deposit History and Roster history must be tracked offline, via such advanced tools as pencil and paper.

5) Bear in mind that Deposit History has no Search function, no Sort function, and intermixes gold deposits with non-gold deposits. It is nothing more than a chronological log.

6) Bear in mind that since non-gold deposits to the bank do not stack, we must employ volunteers to stack items by withdrawing individual items and redepositing them as stacks. Since these deposits are intermixed with gold deposits, they cloud the search and tracking of Dues/Donations.

7) Due to the number of transactions that occur round-the-clock in large teade guilds, we must employ teamsbof trustworthy, accurate, diligent volunteers to donate time to manage accounting.

8) Due to the fact there is no way to verify the work of voluteers, since there are no add-ons to compile a third-party record, officers and GMs must double-check the accounting before the record is inevitably erased.


We console trade guild officers and GMs are expected to deliver the service, accuracy, and seemless support expected by a generation accustomed to ubiquitos software solutions for every irl need, yet we are provided with tools that amount to stone knives and bear skins.


You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Ardan147

The "only" thing that the PC addons ultimately do is to turn data that already exists and is available to players into something that is actually even somewhat human-readable (as well as save that data to a file on your computer so it's still available even after it's no longer available online). Every single dot on an MM graph of the sales history for an item corresponds to an entry that appears or once appeared in the guild history tab. But without a tool like Master Merchant to aggregate all this information and display it in a human-readable form, it is of absolutely no actual use. (Of course this "only thing" is actually a very, very, very big deal).

On PC, accounting systems used by guild leaders and officers developed around having access to this data in a readable, usable form. Console guilds have to charge mandatory dues, because having an alternate sales requirement is simply not feasible without the ability to aggregate sales data to see who is meeting these requirements. Of course, the fact that right now no guild history data is available - whether in an easy to read form or not - greatly compounds the problems for GMs, as they have to do all dues/raffles by mail to ensure that people get credit for it. (One of the guilds I am in decided that because of this whole mess they just wouldn't enforce any of the requirements for this week. But the officers simply cannot keep something like this up for very long because we to be able to afford our trader bids each week.) But going forward, if the ability to programatically read this data is not restored, it will remove pretty much all of the flexibility that PC GM's have in setting requirements so as to ensure that the guild can afford its trader bids and that everyone is contributing to it.

TheTraveler

jircris11 wrote: »

Ppl cant use mm anymore so they freak out. Now the deposit and withdraw history should be a normal inclusion. But if ppl don't want to take time to price check on their own before selling stuff that's on them. Never used mm and never will.

"Make a price check on their own"? Ha hahaha, pray tell how to do that, especially if you cannot even check your own recent sale prices, let alone those of your guilds'...

For people who like to fine-tune their sales, the current situation is a disaster. If there's one thing that will make me leave the game, it's if this persists. I have 15 characters and not much more to do in the game anymore. At least trading keeps me logging in every day. Without it there won't be much point anymore when you've covered most of the content and races and classes. Maybe weekend guild runs, but that's about it.

TheTraveler

Gilvoth wrote: »

i dont agree with your saying "we"
myself and many others of the eso communtiy "hate" the addons and hate they are even allowed in eso.
in single player games addons are awesome and really fun and joy, but not in an MMO they are completely an open door for cheating and its been proven that with miats addon, and many others, that the ability to cheat does exist and is even still being used in eso.

heres some proof
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360442/miat-addon

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387011/miats-zeni-can-i-have-new-skills-please/p1

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/397179/why-wont-miats-addon-die

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308971/miats-pvp-alerts-addon/p1

the list is never ending ...

add-ons need to be disabled Permanently and removed from eso!

What has MIAT got to do with trading addons, and how does the latter bother you? Just don't install them!

Kidgangster101

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

DeadlyHammer wrote: »

All the people on here that are acting like losing this function is no big deal, and think people are just complaining over not having MM function have obviously never run a guild or helped run a guild in this game. The guild member and bank histories are about so much more than anything to do with pricing or sales in our stores. In fact, I could easily live without that part. Its about the ability to track invaluable and necessary information that guild leaders need to account for guild donations and raffle sales for their traders. Most if not all guilds with traders have some kind of fundraisers and dues for their guildies to pay for the trader the guild obtains. The guilds would not have enough gold to pay for the traders if the majority of their guildies were "roster sitters" who did not contribute. Guild member and bank history allows guilds to see who deposits gold to the guild when and how much to monitor their level of contributions. Many have weekly sales amounts as part of their allowed requirements to stay in guild and the only way to reasonably track that is with an addon like MM.
All we are asking for is the basic functions we need to keep our guilds afloat by being able to continue taking donations and sell raffle tickets and track them.With the guild trader system the way it is that guilds must be able to earn the gold required for their trader bids; then it is unreasonable to eliminate the very thing that allows us to do so in the first place.

So how does console players run a trader guild right now without the add-on if it can't be done like you say? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

But the current system is so amazing right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Permit me to enlighten you:

1) There is no house cut transaction history on console, so the concept of running a trade guild based on house cut, which is made possible by the analytics of PC add-ons, is impossible on console. That eliminates one of three possible ways to fund trade bids for console.

2) Of the remaining two methods - Dues/Donations and Fundraisers - Dues/Donations rely on the Deposit History log in the Guild Trader UI while Fundraisers (e.g. Raffles) rely on third party tracking, such as pencil and paper (or MS Excel, or a smartphone app).

3) Dues/Donations method is nearly universal on console because it generates a chronological log in the Guild UI. To make use of this log without add-ons, we console officers must:
1. Look up most recent promoted guild member in Roster History
2. Switch to Deposit History and look up most recent gold deposit posted after the most recently promoted guild member.
3. Switch to Roster and search for the guild member who made the most recent uncredited deposit.
4. Promote one or more times based on Dues policy or Promote/Edit Note for Donations policy
5. Switch back to Roster History to verify promotion was posted
6. Switch back to Deposit History to identify next most recent deposit
7. Repeat steps 1 through 6. Sometimes there may be several pages of deposits to record

4) Any policy, promotion, non-gold deposit, fundraiser, etc that cannot be tracked via Deposit History and Roster history must be tracked offline, via such advanced tools as pencil and paper.

5) Bear in mind that Deposit History has no Search function, no Sort function, and intermixes gold deposits with non-gold deposits. It is nothing more than a chronological log.

6) Bear in mind that since non-gold deposits to the bank do not stack, we must employ volunteers to stack items by withdrawing individual items and redepositing them as stacks. Since these deposits are intermixed with gold deposits, they cloud the search and tracking of Dues/Donations.

7) Due to the number of transactions that occur round-the-clock in large teade guilds, we must employ teamsbof trustworthy, accurate, diligent volunteers to donate time to manage accounting.

8) Due to the fact there is no way to verify the work of voluteers, since there are no add-ons to compile a third-party record, officers and GMs must double-check the accounting before the record is inevitably erased.


We console trade guild officers and GMs are expected to deliver the service, accuracy, and seemless support expected by a generation accustomed to ubiquitos software solutions for every irl need, yet we are provided with tools that amount to stone knives and bear skins.


You know nothing, Jon Snow.

I know nothing? Lol I'm in a large trade guild, I can also see when I post an item it shows the amount of gold the "house" will get once I sell that item........

You are here as a console player with access to none of these add-ons and think it should be okay for them to have it and us not? You got to be kidding me lol.

You are also saying that you don't benefit from running a guild? So then why are you opposed to say a public auction house were you don't have to do sooooooooooo much extra work on a video game that should be more of a relaxing period after working and or a hobby you do in your spare time?

blnchk

So much for this game's trading system being such great fun... 🙄

srfrogg23

Derra wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

It´s pretty obvious - it removes a function that allows veteran players to gain an edge on inexperienced newcomers.
That´s happening all over the game for a while now.

Veteran players make the game less fun for newbies.
Veteran players also potentially spend less cash on the game as they already have most things they desire.

I like where your head is at. I agree, these addons give players a significant advantage over the players without the addons.

VaranisArano

TheTraveler wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Ppl cant use mm anymore so they freak out. Now the deposit and withdraw history should be a normal inclusion. But if ppl don't want to take time to price check on their own before selling stuff that's on them. Never used mm and never will.

"Make a price check on their own"? Ha hahaha, pray tell how to do that, especially if you cannot even check your own recent sale prices, let alone those of your guilds'...

For people who like to fine-tune their sales, the current situation is a disaster. If there's one thing that will make me leave the game, it's if this persists. I have 15 characters and not much more to do in the game anymore. At least trading keeps me logging in every day. Without it there won't be much point anymore when you've covered most of the content and races and classes. Maybe weekend guild runs, but that's about it.

Doing your own price check isnt hard, just time consuming.

You go around to a couple traders, usually the capital cities or the ones near your trader, and figure out what the geberal proce for your item is. Its a lot easier now that we have an item search.

That being said, its a LOT harder to "fine tune" your sales. You pretty much have to go with a general price that more or less matches what you see in your guild and others nearby.

That's pretty much how traders operate on console.

reoskit

therift wrote: »

We console trade guild officers and GMs are expected to deliver the service, accuracy, and seemless support expected by a generation accustomed to ubiquitos software solutions for every irl need, yet we are provided with tools that amount to stone knives and bear skins.

@therift - IMO, you guys are saints. Thank you for your insightful posts here.

Stormshaper

So your logic for removing ALL addons across the board relies on four posts which all show a subject of one single addon? The list is "never ending" and you're siting one single addon four times?! That's not logical.

I'd like to remind everyone in the 'no addons' camp that for years...years(!) people who were color blind were able to play the game a bit better than they would otherwise (on PC ofc) solely b/c of addons. That's an example right off the top of my head but it's not the only example showing that addons are useful and needed. And after a couple years this addon capability was added to the base game wasn't it? I'll wager in big part thanks to addon authors who had created these addons.

A more recent example is an addon that allows the user to increase the font size and style of nameplates only (without affecting zone text and the like). You're going to tell us that the purists demand people with poorer vision than thou like it or leave it because many in the ESO community demand it?

Also, some of the Miat's addon forum examples are when the game allowed for some functionality that was later changed, maybe just to prevent some of the functionality in this one addon alone.

To say that addons open the door for cheating and you can only site one (arguable) example when clearly the evidence is that there are many addons that improve this game (vastly IMO) is simply disingenuous. If it weren't for several extremely helpful addons that save me a lot of time (and in no universe could be considered cheating), I personally would not have been playing this game as long as I have.

I'd also like to remind people that where there's a will, there's a way. Addons will simply go underground to use the expression. If there's even a slight way for them to be used then they will be used. Don't like it?? DON'T USE THEM. But don't say they're cheating based on one example when the mountain of evidence proves otherwise.

EDIT: grammar, sentence completion, etc...

Gilvoth wrote: »

i dont agree with your saying "we"
myself and many others of the eso communtiy "hate" the addons and hate they are even allowed in eso.
in single player games addons are awesome and really fun and joy, but not in an MMO they are completely an open door for cheating and its been proven that with miats addon, and many others, that the ability to cheat does exist and is even still being used in eso.

heres some proof
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360442/miat-addon

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387011/miats-zeni-can-i-have-new-skills-please/p1

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/397179/why-wont-miats-addon-die

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308971/miats-pvp-alerts-addon/p1

the list is never ending ...

add-ons need to be disabled Permanently and removed from eso!

wavingblue

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

DeadlyHammer wrote: »

All the people on here that are acting like losing this function is no big deal, and think people are just complaining over not having MM function have obviously never run a guild or helped run a guild in this game. The guild member and bank histories are about so much more than anything to do with pricing or sales in our stores. In fact, I could easily live without that part. Its about the ability to track invaluable and necessary information that guild leaders need to account for guild donations and raffle sales for their traders. Most if not all guilds with traders have some kind of fundraisers and dues for their guildies to pay for the trader the guild obtains. The guilds would not have enough gold to pay for the traders if the majority of their guildies were "roster sitters" who did not contribute. Guild member and bank history allows guilds to see who deposits gold to the guild when and how much to monitor their level of contributions. Many have weekly sales amounts as part of their allowed requirements to stay in guild and the only way to reasonably track that is with an addon like MM.
All we are asking for is the basic functions we need to keep our guilds afloat by being able to continue taking donations and sell raffle tickets and track them.With the guild trader system the way it is that guilds must be able to earn the gold required for their trader bids; then it is unreasonable to eliminate the very thing that allows us to do so in the first place.

So how does console players run a trader guild right now without the add-on if it can't be done like you say? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

But the current system is so amazing right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Permit me to enlighten you:

1) There is no house cut transaction history on console, so the concept of running a trade guild based on house cut, which is made possible by the analytics of PC add-ons, is impossible on console. That eliminates one of three possible ways to fund trade bids for console.

2) Of the remaining two methods - Dues/Donations and Fundraisers - Dues/Donations rely on the Deposit History log in the Guild Trader UI while Fundraisers (e.g. Raffles) rely on third party tracking, such as pencil and paper (or MS Excel, or a smartphone app).

3) Dues/Donations method is nearly universal on console because it generates a chronological log in the Guild UI. To make use of this log without add-ons, we console officers must:
1. Look up most recent promoted guild member in Roster History
2. Switch to Deposit History and look up most recent gold deposit posted after the most recently promoted guild member.
3. Switch to Roster and search for the guild member who made the most recent uncredited deposit.
4. Promote one or more times based on Dues policy or Promote/Edit Note for Donations policy
5. Switch back to Roster History to verify promotion was posted
6. Switch back to Deposit History to identify next most recent deposit
7. Repeat steps 1 through 6. Sometimes there may be several pages of deposits to record

4) Any policy, promotion, non-gold deposit, fundraiser, etc that cannot be tracked via Deposit History and Roster history must be tracked offline, via such advanced tools as pencil and paper.

5) Bear in mind that Deposit History has no Search function, no Sort function, and intermixes gold deposits with non-gold deposits. It is nothing more than a chronological log.

6) Bear in mind that since non-gold deposits to the bank do not stack, we must employ volunteers to stack items by withdrawing individual items and redepositing them as stacks. Since these deposits are intermixed with gold deposits, they cloud the search and tracking of Dues/Donations.

7) Due to the number of transactions that occur round-the-clock in large teade guilds, we must employ teamsbof trustworthy, accurate, diligent volunteers to donate time to manage accounting.

8) Due to the fact there is no way to verify the work of voluteers, since there are no add-ons to compile a third-party record, officers and GMs must double-check the accounting before the record is inevitably erased.


We console trade guild officers and GMs are expected to deliver the service, accuracy, and seemless support expected by a generation accustomed to ubiquitos software solutions for every irl need, yet we are provided with tools that amount to stone knives and bear skins.


You know nothing, Jon Snow.

I know nothing? Lol I'm in a large trade guild

IN? Do you RUN one?

wavingblue

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

It´s pretty obvious - it removes a function that allows veteran players to gain an edge on inexperienced newcomers.
That´s happening all over the game for a while now.

Veteran players make the game less fun for newbies.
Veteran players also potentially spend less cash on the game as they already have most things they desire.

I like where your head is at. I agree, these addons give players a significant advantage over the players without the addons.

These add-ons are freely available, can be found, guild members will suggest them and assist n00bs how to use them, settings and when their use is appropriate. As far as your support of the claim that veteran players spend less cash.. so let me get this straight, the veteran who in most cases will pay for ESO+ for entire year (frankly if you have multiple t00ns and do crafting you have to have it), new chapters/dlc's are spending less? OK.. you don't know and are ASSuming what a "veteran" player does, has or spends. How long do you have to play before you are an evil veteran player? One year, two years? Four?

Stormshaper

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

It´s pretty obvious - it removes a function that allows veteran players to gain an edge on inexperienced newcomers.
That´s happening all over the game for a while now.

Veteran players make the game less fun for newbies.
Veteran players also potentially spend less cash on the game as they already have most things they desire.

I like where your head is at. I agree, these addons give players a significant advantage over the players without the addons.

Come on! I hadn't been playing the game for two weeks when I learned that 1) there were (sanctioned) addons and 2) said addons came in a wide variety of uses and applications. One of the very first addons I installed was Master Merchant. You'd have to literally never read zone chat or even casually glance at it EVER to argue new players are at a disadvantage. People in game are generally very helpful to point out addons exist, how to get them and what their intended purposes are.

EDIT: And another brainy idea would be to simplify and emphasize certain portions of that ADDON EULA for new players. You remember it, all you PC users had to agreed to it at least once.

therift

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

DeadlyHammer wrote: »

All the people on here that are acting like losing this function is no big deal, and think people are just complaining over not having MM function have obviously never run a guild or helped run a guild in this game. The guild member and bank histories are about so much more than anything to do with pricing or sales in our stores. In fact, I could easily live without that part. Its about the ability to track invaluable and necessary information that guild leaders need to account for guild donations and raffle sales for their traders. Most if not all guilds with traders have some kind of fundraisers and dues for their guildies to pay for the trader the guild obtains. The guilds would not have enough gold to pay for the traders if the majority of their guildies were "roster sitters" who did not contribute. Guild member and bank history allows guilds to see who deposits gold to the guild when and how much to monitor their level of contributions. Many have weekly sales amounts as part of their allowed requirements to stay in guild and the only way to reasonably track that is with an addon like MM.
All we are asking for is the basic functions we need to keep our guilds afloat by being able to continue taking donations and sell raffle tickets and track them.With the guild trader system the way it is that guilds must be able to earn the gold required for their trader bids; then it is unreasonable to eliminate the very thing that allows us to do so in the first place.

So how does console players run a trader guild right now without the add-on if it can't be done like you say? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

But the current system is so amazing right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Permit me to enlighten you:

1) There is no house cut transaction history on console, so the concept of running a trade guild based on house cut, which is made possible by the analytics of PC add-ons, is impossible on console. That eliminates one of three possible ways to fund trade bids for console.

2) Of the remaining two methods - Dues/Donations and Fundraisers - Dues/Donations rely on the Deposit History log in the Guild Trader UI while Fundraisers (e.g. Raffles) rely on third party tracking, such as pencil and paper (or MS Excel, or a smartphone app).

3) Dues/Donations method is nearly universal on console because it generates a chronological log in the Guild UI. To make use of this log without add-ons, we console officers must:
1. Look up most recent promoted guild member in Roster History
2. Switch to Deposit History and look up most recent gold deposit posted after the most recently promoted guild member.
3. Switch to Roster and search for the guild member who made the most recent uncredited deposit.
4. Promote one or more times based on Dues policy or Promote/Edit Note for Donations policy
5. Switch back to Roster History to verify promotion was posted
6. Switch back to Deposit History to identify next most recent deposit
7. Repeat steps 1 through 6. Sometimes there may be several pages of deposits to record

4) Any policy, promotion, non-gold deposit, fundraiser, etc that cannot be tracked via Deposit History and Roster history must be tracked offline, via such advanced tools as pencil and paper.

5) Bear in mind that Deposit History has no Search function, no Sort function, and intermixes gold deposits with non-gold deposits. It is nothing more than a chronological log.

6) Bear in mind that since non-gold deposits to the bank do not stack, we must employ volunteers to stack items by withdrawing individual items and redepositing them as stacks. Since these deposits are intermixed with gold deposits, they cloud the search and tracking of Dues/Donations.

7) Due to the number of transactions that occur round-the-clock in large teade guilds, we must employ teamsbof trustworthy, accurate, diligent volunteers to donate time to manage accounting.

8) Due to the fact there is no way to verify the work of voluteers, since there are no add-ons to compile a third-party record, officers and GMs must double-check the accounting before the record is inevitably erased.


We console trade guild officers and GMs are expected to deliver the service, accuracy, and seemless support expected by a generation accustomed to ubiquitos software solutions for every irl need, yet we are provided with tools that amount to stone knives and bear skins.


You know nothing, Jon Snow.

I know nothing? Lol I'm in a large trade guild, I can also see when I post an item it shows the amount of gold the "house" will get once I sell that item........

You are here as a console player with access to none of these add-ons and think it should be okay for them to have it and us not? You got to be kidding me lol.

You are also saying that you don't benefit from running a guild? So then why are you opposed to say a public auction house were you don't have to do sooooooooooo much extra work on a video game that should be more of a relaxing period after working and or a hobby you do in your spare time?

1) That House Cut that you see when you list an item is not recorded in the Guild History UI. You are the only one who sees it, unless an add-on is installed to extract that datum from ZoS's server and compile it separately. Your point is irrelevant and demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the Guild UI on console.

2) I play on console. As several posters have previously noted, I knew that choosing console, for whatever reason, meant I would not have access to add-ons. It is completely irrelevant to me if PC players have or do not have add-ons, as we play on separate servers. Your claim that PC players have an advantage over console players makes as much sense as claiming Japanese travellers have an advantage because Japan has bullet trains.

3) Okay, you got me. I do have an advantage from donating time to trading guilds. That lag you experienced last week? That was my doing. I used my Trading Guild Secret Ray Gun to hose your router with Lag Rays. Don't tempt me to do it again.

binarybandit_ESO

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

DeadlyHammer wrote: »

All the people on here that are acting like losing this function is no big deal, and think people are just complaining over not having MM function have obviously never run a guild or helped run a guild in this game. The guild member and bank histories are about so much more than anything to do with pricing or sales in our stores. In fact, I could easily live without that part. Its about the ability to track invaluable and necessary information that guild leaders need to account for guild donations and raffle sales for their traders. Most if not all guilds with traders have some kind of fundraisers and dues for their guildies to pay for the trader the guild obtains. The guilds would not have enough gold to pay for the traders if the majority of their guildies were "roster sitters" who did not contribute. Guild member and bank history allows guilds to see who deposits gold to the guild when and how much to monitor their level of contributions. Many have weekly sales amounts as part of their allowed requirements to stay in guild and the only way to reasonably track that is with an addon like MM.
All we are asking for is the basic functions we need to keep our guilds afloat by being able to continue taking donations and sell raffle tickets and track them.With the guild trader system the way it is that guilds must be able to earn the gold required for their trader bids; then it is unreasonable to eliminate the very thing that allows us to do so in the first place.

So how does console players run a trader guild right now without the add-on if it can't be done like you say? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

But the current system is so amazing right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Permit me to enlighten you:

1) There is no house cut transaction history on console, so the concept of running a trade guild based on house cut, which is made possible by the analytics of PC add-ons, is impossible on console. That eliminates one of three possible ways to fund trade bids for console.

2) Of the remaining two methods - Dues/Donations and Fundraisers - Dues/Donations rely on the Deposit History log in the Guild Trader UI while Fundraisers (e.g. Raffles) rely on third party tracking, such as pencil and paper (or MS Excel, or a smartphone app).

3) Dues/Donations method is nearly universal on console because it generates a chronological log in the Guild UI. To make use of this log without add-ons, we console officers must:
1. Look up most recent promoted guild member in Roster History
2. Switch to Deposit History and look up most recent gold deposit posted after the most recently promoted guild member.
3. Switch to Roster and search for the guild member who made the most recent uncredited deposit.
4. Promote one or more times based on Dues policy or Promote/Edit Note for Donations policy
5. Switch back to Roster History to verify promotion was posted
6. Switch back to Deposit History to identify next most recent deposit
7. Repeat steps 1 through 6. Sometimes there may be several pages of deposits to record

4) Any policy, promotion, non-gold deposit, fundraiser, etc that cannot be tracked via Deposit History and Roster history must be tracked offline, via such advanced tools as pencil and paper.

5) Bear in mind that Deposit History has no Search function, no Sort function, and intermixes gold deposits with non-gold deposits. It is nothing more than a chronological log.

6) Bear in mind that since non-gold deposits to the bank do not stack, we must employ volunteers to stack items by withdrawing individual items and redepositing them as stacks. Since these deposits are intermixed with gold deposits, they cloud the search and tracking of Dues/Donations.

7) Due to the number of transactions that occur round-the-clock in large teade guilds, we must employ teamsbof trustworthy, accurate, diligent volunteers to donate time to manage accounting.

8) Due to the fact there is no way to verify the work of voluteers, since there are no add-ons to compile a third-party record, officers and GMs must double-check the accounting before the record is inevitably erased.


We console trade guild officers and GMs are expected to deliver the service, accuracy, and seemless support expected by a generation accustomed to ubiquitos software solutions for every irl need, yet we are provided with tools that amount to stone knives and bear skins.


You know nothing, Jon Snow.

As a guildmaster for a PC trading guild who will have to adapt to the new situation, this advice is amazing, and i thank you for sharing it (:

StabbityDoom

That is insane, @therift - I hope they give you folks some clearer/more useful tools to even make using their own information better

Stormshaper

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

No offense as I am a console player, but I have stating for well over a year now this game needed a central AH system. I stated that this system was very flawed in numerous ways but people said I was wrong and that this system was amazing.

Now you guys are losing your add-on that console players do not have, and you guys think it is a terrible idea? But if this system is so great why should you need an add-on to use the guild trader system?

Again I'm not trying to be rude I am rather curious as we have this thread complaining about not using add-ons, and another one saying we need global AH but that one is being denied?

The system is 'great', well it's at least much better than the alternative, a centralized market.

This system is simply defined as a decentralized market place.

The market and trade addons efficiently pick up where the game's limitation of FULLY utilizing this system leave off.

If I were playing on console where addons are non-existent then I might be inclined to agree, a central AH would be better, because it would be simpler. And it would be simpler/better ONLY because addons were non-existent. So, sure a centralized system would be easier in this case, for the player at least. If you could test out some of the addons for even a few days on console I think it's quite likely you'd change your mind.

Another thought just occured to me. I've seen people (in-game) say they switched from console to PC because of the ability to use addons. BUT, I haven't seen people (on the forums) say they switched from PC to console to get away from addons. I'm not saying those people don't exist, but I'd love to see this as a poll....

rsantijw13

As far as I can tell TTC is still working and can be something that still works. Good enough for me. If its going to make your job to hard to enjoy the game then don't do it. Again They can leave it the way it is and I would be fine. Most guilds would be fine. This has been great for me.Still selling like normal on my end and I dont have to worry about other addons

therift

binarybandit_ESO wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

DeadlyHammer wrote: »

All the people on here that are acting like losing this function is no big deal, and think people are just complaining over not having MM function have obviously never run a guild or helped run a guild in this game. The guild member and bank histories are about so much more than anything to do with pricing or sales in our stores. In fact, I could easily live without that part. Its about the ability to track invaluable and necessary information that guild leaders need to account for guild donations and raffle sales for their traders. Most if not all guilds with traders have some kind of fundraisers and dues for their guildies to pay for the trader the guild obtains. The guilds would not have enough gold to pay for the traders if the majority of their guildies were "roster sitters" who did not contribute. Guild member and bank history allows guilds to see who deposits gold to the guild when and how much to monitor their level of contributions. Many have weekly sales amounts as part of their allowed requirements to stay in guild and the only way to reasonably track that is with an addon like MM.
All we are asking for is the basic functions we need to keep our guilds afloat by being able to continue taking donations and sell raffle tickets and track them.With the guild trader system the way it is that guilds must be able to earn the gold required for their trader bids; then it is unreasonable to eliminate the very thing that allows us to do so in the first place.

So how does console players run a trader guild right now without the add-on if it can't be done like you say? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

But the current system is so amazing right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Permit me to enlighten you:

1) There is no house cut transaction history on console, so the concept of running a trade guild based on house cut, which is made possible by the analytics of PC add-ons, is impossible on console. That eliminates one of three possible ways to fund trade bids for console.

2) Of the remaining two methods - Dues/Donations and Fundraisers - Dues/Donations rely on the Deposit History log in the Guild Trader UI while Fundraisers (e.g. Raffles) rely on third party tracking, such as pencil and paper (or MS Excel, or a smartphone app).

3) Dues/Donations method is nearly universal on console because it generates a chronological log in the Guild UI. To make use of this log without add-ons, we console officers must:
1. Look up most recent promoted guild member in Roster History
2. Switch to Deposit History and look up most recent gold deposit posted after the most recently promoted guild member.
3. Switch to Roster and search for the guild member who made the most recent uncredited deposit.
4. Promote one or more times based on Dues policy or Promote/Edit Note for Donations policy
5. Switch back to Roster History to verify promotion was posted
6. Switch back to Deposit History to identify next most recent deposit
7. Repeat steps 1 through 6. Sometimes there may be several pages of deposits to record

4) Any policy, promotion, non-gold deposit, fundraiser, etc that cannot be tracked via Deposit History and Roster history must be tracked offline, via such advanced tools as pencil and paper.

5) Bear in mind that Deposit History has no Search function, no Sort function, and intermixes gold deposits with non-gold deposits. It is nothing more than a chronological log.

6) Bear in mind that since non-gold deposits to the bank do not stack, we must employ volunteers to stack items by withdrawing individual items and redepositing them as stacks. Since these deposits are intermixed with gold deposits, they cloud the search and tracking of Dues/Donations.

7) Due to the number of transactions that occur round-the-clock in large teade guilds, we must employ teamsbof trustworthy, accurate, diligent volunteers to donate time to manage accounting.

8) Due to the fact there is no way to verify the work of voluteers, since there are no add-ons to compile a third-party record, officers and GMs must double-check the accounting before the record is inevitably erased.


We console trade guild officers and GMs are expected to deliver the service, accuracy, and seemless support expected by a generation accustomed to ubiquitos software solutions for every irl need, yet we are provided with tools that amount to stone knives and bear skins.


You know nothing, Jon Snow.

As a guildmaster for a PC trading guild who will have to adapt to the new situation, this advice is amazing, and i thank you for sharing it (:

It's not easy, but it serves. You will find with a bit of practice, the procedure can be pretty quick.

Three bits of advice:

1) Beware of lag. It is possible to over-promote if you work too quickly. It is possible to duplicate work if more than one person at a time works. It is possible to miss a credit if deposits are posted while working. It's best to eyeball the entire run of updates in Roster and Deposit Histories when finished.

2) When an officer is finished with a run, deposit 1 gold in guild bank as a place marker. Double check after that 1 gold deposit for any deposits that may have posted between finish of run and when your 1 gold deposit posted. This really helps identifying where the previous officer left off.

3) If using Edit Note, it helps to use a character as an identifier for the officer who updated the Note (+,#,^%, etc). Since the Edit Note feature provides no log at all, an identifying unique character can act as a 'verification stamp' that the Note was modified and by whom.

But truly, I hope you get your real accounting tools back and soon.

rsantijw13

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

It´s pretty obvious - it removes a function that allows veteran players to gain an edge on inexperienced newcomers.
That´s happening all over the game for a while now.

Veteran players make the game less fun for newbies.
Veteran players also potentially spend less cash on the game as they already have most things they desire.

I like where your head is at. I agree, these addons give players a significant advantage over the players without the addons.

never met me or been in my guild and I have been here since day one. you should add the word some, most, ect to convey that thought about veteran players. I have subbed every month without fail since the beginnning, ever crown store sale I bought, Please do not say that newer players spend more money when I bought the early access of every chapter. One of the things I enjoy doing is teaching and as far as I know my guild is the only one that continuously invests in the players and their characters. This community is by far one of the best and most welcoming to newcomers. Dont lump me in with your imagined views.

Ardan147

Gilvoth wrote: »

i dont agree with your saying "we"
myself and many others of the eso communtiy "hate" the addons and hate they are even allowed in eso.
in single player games addons are awesome and really fun and joy, but not in an MMO they are completely an open door for cheating and its been proven that with miats addon, and many others, that the ability to cheat does exist and is even still being used in eso.

heres some proof
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360442/miat-addon

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387011/miats-zeni-can-i-have-new-skills-please/p1

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/397179/why-wont-miats-addon-die

and
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308971/miats-pvp-alerts-addon/p1

the list is never ending ...

add-ons need to be disabled Permanently and removed from eso!

This was ONE addon, and it was on ZOS for the API functionality that allowed it to work in that manner. And while it's always possible for there to be bugs in the API that allow addons to exploit certain functionality, that is not a reason to get rid of addons altogether. In fact, the existence of Miat's was a GOOD thing in that it made very public the existence of an issue within the API that needed to be addressed (which it eventually was). Because while Miat's was publicly available, it is almost certain that there are some PvP guilds that use their own private addons that aren't publicly available

You realize that for some people, addons are the difference between them being able to play the game at all and not being able to play (and as such, the console versions would be completely inaccessible to them). Take someone who is visually impaired and needs to have the text enlarged so that they can read it at all. Or someone who is dyslexic changing the font of all in-game text to something that they can better read and process. Or someone who is color blind changing the colors of certain display elements so they can tell them apart.

Even beyond that, the game is barely playable without addons. Doing daily crafting writs, having to WRITE DOWN the items that are needed, due to the fact that when you are at a crafting station, the text displaying your currently active quest disappears entirely - and of course without addons it would be impossible to change even this behavior, let alone automate the crafting process. Then there's master writs, which with MM and WritWorthy together I can first instantly see whether or not a writ is worth doing at all (or worth buying if I see it in a guild store based on its price in the store and the cost to craft it), and also makes sure I can't mess it up and craft the wrong thing and waste valuable materials in the process. I doubt that anyone has ever considered it "fun" or "exciting" to have to check and double check when doing a writ requiring over 50k gold in materials that they are crafting everything correctly or else have all those materials be wasted.

I could go on and on about how addons fix issues and add functionality that ought to have been in the game to begin with. And while ZOS really shouldn't be using the community as a source of free labor, it does free up their development staff to focus on issues that can't be patched by someone writing an addon.

If it wasn't for addons I would have quit playing a long, long time ago. And I am sure that many other players would have as well.