PTS Update 22 - Feedback Thread for Class Balance

Jabbs_Giggity

hunter937 wrote: »

Okay so you aren’t going to fix empowering sweep... stamplar needs SOMETHING to mitigate ranged damage. I propose we have access to minor maim somewhere in our passives and have a stam version of toppling charge to stun and close the distance on our enemies. Without major protection we have nothing stopping mag sorcs and magdens from spamming their rotation from a distance...

Just give up. We have been trying to suggest ways go improve Templar, let alone stamplar. Just accept that ZOS has no *** clue what they are doing nor have a vision for how they want the future of the game to become. Just another shady, typical corporate tyrant suckling your dollars from you to squeeze a profit. Let the server populations did and watch as the company dies with it

Tasear

Where is the equality here?

Nightblades now have more utility and good utility for each role. They do more damage with minor vulenerbity and got sustain increase with ultimate.

Now to to top it off they can silent enemy for 120 ultimate that they can't roll out of compared to Sorc who has it at almost double cost.

This is clear favoritism.

grannas211

I know Mag Sorc and Stamblade are probably legit the most popular classes in the game; however, I thought this patch was supposed to be an audit of ALL the classes? This PTS cycle has more focus on Stamblade than the brand new class. Thats not even being dramatic. This thread is pointless.

Jabbs_Giggity

I think shareholders need to make some needed balance changes in their own "class" skill lines. Fire them all and be done with it.
ZOS is a joke of game development 🤣

Sarousse

Class balance : nothing for stam sorc. Again and again. When you you throw us a bone ?

Minno

Tasear wrote: »

Where is the equality here?

Nightblades now have more utility and good utility for each role. They do more damage with minor vulenerbity and got sustain increase with ultimate.

Now to to top it off they can silent enemy for 120 ultimate that they can't roll out of compared to Sorc who has it at almost double cost.

This is clear favoritism.

nightblades has AOE cc through fear, AOE minor maim application, AOE applied major vitality:
"We hAZ nO GRoup UtILtY"

LeHarrt91

Pain Point for Magicka Warden DPS.
1. It would be nice to be wanted/ needed/ useful as a DPS in trials.

Rygonix

I'm getting so very, very tired of you devs fawning over NBS and listening intently to their feedback while doing jack all for the other classes you've deliberately castrated this patch. Please take another look at Templars, seriously

Jabbs_Giggity

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

Zer0oo

no nerf to fossilize yet?

Morgul667

This update is NOT a class balance update

Zer0oo

no fix to shield bug
no fix to grd targeted skills extreme delayed or not going off?
no fix to shades?
no fix to psijic ulti?
no fix to really strange animation or double chance to dodge cfrags?
no fix to disappearing ultis? (s&b ulti goes missing when block canceled or the los of dawnbreaker...)
no change to really crappy skills like cblast?
no really audit of any other class than nb or dk
no really look at CCs (compare draining shot with javeling, rune prison to fossilize)



as much as i appreciate shield breaker change the rest of this patch was more meh than anything and to top it off we get this incap and faction locking without offering some alliance swapping forcing out char you can no longer play on a active pvp server

rafaelcsmaia

There you go devs, now you know what it means, because seriously this is the only reasonable explanation to the COMPLETE MESS this patch has been until now.

I'd tag the whole ZOS staff, but it would prolly get deleted.

Zer0oo

oh and let's not forget you still have not fixed the perm snared meta and did makes it worse again with making race against time useless again

jbjondeaueb17_ESO

hunter937 wrote: »

Okay so you aren’t going to fix empowering sweep... stamplar needs SOMETHING to mitigate ranged damage. I propose we have access to minor maim somewhere in our passives and have a stam version of toppling charge to stun and close the distance on our enemies. Without major protection we have nothing stopping mag sorcs and magdens from spamming their rotation from a distance...

At least you don't have to worry too much about Magplar ranged damage, Backlash nerfed, Dark Flare nerfed, Sun Fire (and morphs) nerfed, I'm surprised they didn't nerfed Radiant Oppression yet

Iskiab

Leaving another opinion on class balance.

Please ignore 99% of forum posters, don’t fall for the Zerg posts. People have changed to playing the most powerful classes and lost any semblance of impartiality.

On one hand they’ve changed to playing the most powerful classes (Warden and Sorc) and on the other complain about any change to their class’ dominance in the game.

The other thing is I’d bet half of all opinions are from people who’ve never logged onto the PTS so are unqualified to give any feedback in the first place.

You will not get accurate feedback until 2 months or so post patch, or when people have adapted. Case in point: sorcs crying about the shield changes when they ended up the second most powerful pvp spec after the shield changes.

I’d ignore the forums, do what you think is best for the game.

Iskiab

jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »

hunter937 wrote: »

Okay so you aren’t going to fix empowering sweep... stamplar needs SOMETHING to mitigate ranged damage. I propose we have access to minor maim somewhere in our passives and have a stam version of toppling charge to stun and close the distance on our enemies. Without major protection we have nothing stopping mag sorcs and magdens from spamming their rotation from a distance...

At least you don't have to worry too much about Magplar ranged damage, Backlash nerfed, Dark Flare nerfed, Sun Fire (and morphs) nerfed, I'm surprised they didn't nerfed Radiant Oppression yet

Shards buffed!

Minno

jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »

hunter937 wrote: »

Okay so you aren’t going to fix empowering sweep... stamplar needs SOMETHING to mitigate ranged damage. I propose we have access to minor maim somewhere in our passives and have a stam version of toppling charge to stun and close the distance on our enemies. Without major protection we have nothing stopping mag sorcs and magdens from spamming their rotation from a distance...

At least you don't have to worry too much about Magplar ranged damage, Backlash nerfed, Dark Flare nerfed, Sun Fire (and morphs) nerfed, I'm surprised they didn't nerfed Radiant Oppression yet

no need to nerf jesus beam because by design its really a Xv1 or a PVE tool anyway lol.

DreadDaedroth

Reflective scales should be brought to its original functionality.

ZarkingFrued

Ertosi

Tasear wrote: »

Where is the equality here?

Nightblades now have more utility and good utility for each role. They do more damage with minor vulenerbity and got sustain increase with ultimate.

Now to to top it off they can silent enemy for 120 ultimate that they can't roll out of compared to Sorc who has it at almost double cost.

This is clear favoritism.

For equality's sake, can we expect another class to be getting an Ultimate that completely shuts down all Stamina abilities?


I joke, because adding an uncounterable Silence to Incap is grossly unbalanced, but ZOS will probably take it seriously and add the anti-Stam Ultimate idea... to nightblades as a morph.

Tommy_The_Gun

Forums right now:

Tasear

Ertosi wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Where is the equality here?

Nightblades now have more utility and good utility for each role. They do more damage with minor vulenerbity and got sustain increase with ultimate.

Now to to top it off they can silent enemy for 120 ultimate that they can't roll out of compared to Sorc who has it at almost double cost.

This is clear favoritism.

For equality's sake, can we expect another class to be getting an Ultimate that completely shuts down all Stamina abilities?


I joke, because adding an uncounterable Silence to Incap is grossly unbalanced, but ZOS will probably take it seriously and add the anti-Stam Ultimate idea... to nightblades as a morph.

Would of been sadly okay with stamina silence. At least it would be different and not outright stolen.

Dreadwar

DK- Stone Giant Morph Change

Can this morph get the same treatment for damage as Flames of Oblivion? [Scaling with highest stat]

BrokenGameMechanics

JazzyNapkin wrote: »

Magden was barely even changed... Also, animal companions doing frost dmg would've been nice.

Clearly and willfully ZOS has never wanted to any animal companions to do Frost damage. No idea why. Have you ever noticed the asymmetry here by ZOS? If you morph Scorch to Subass you tada get Poison damage. Well poison damage can work with Sets for enhanced damage, procing etc. Also very effective against Werewolves.

If you are Magicka then if you morph Scorch you get magica damage, not Fire, not Frost, just magicka. If Frost we could get a Chill probability, snaring and or Minor Maim etc. If Fire, then we are a bit extra effective against Vampires etc. Clearly ZOS went out of their way to ensure zero Elemental damage for Magica Wardens, but enhanced damage for Stamina Wardens.

They should either nerf the Stamina morph to Physical damage or buff the Magica morph to Frost or Fire.

BrokenGameMechanics

]

hunter937 wrote: »

Okay so you aren’t going to fix empowering sweep... stamplar needs SOMETHING to mitigate ranged damage. I propose we have access to minor maim somewhere in our passives and have a stam version of toppling charge to stun and close the distance on our enemies. Without major protection we have nothing stopping mag sorcs and magdens from spamming their rotation from a distance...

Ah the grass greener from the other side ...

I play a lot of Magden and yea, keeping a distance is essential, absolutely essential. And from my side what I see is ZERO way to do it. Everyone runs as fast or faster, snares have been gutted, Immobilized is now considered a Hard CC with immunity, you get Sliver Leashed like literally ALL THE TIME (Sliver Leach is OP), and now all the Gap Closers will be all the rage. And of course, any Stam toon, especially a Stam toon in Medium can just waltz right up to us to melee distance. Just dance on over ...

From the Magden perspective in the upcoming release we will have no counter or way to enforce a safe distance. Just walk your stamplar over and jab away. If too lazy to walk, gap close, or if you like where you are just Silver Leash me on over. Nada, literally nothing, I can do to stop you no matter what you decide to do. Spam some Jabs and I'm dead. For extra credit you can put me at death's door if not out right 1-shotme with any Radiant or Soul Assault.

HankTwo

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

AScaryDinosaur

I think most of the community agrees the silence on incapacitating strike is too powerful. I appreciate you looking into counter play options and figured I would give you an idea of my own. Hopefully this gives you another idea to consider.

The idea I came up with is have incap spawn a beam between you and the enemy hit (assuming you had 120 ult, of course). The beam silences the target for the duration but can be broken if the target moves X meters away from the caster. I was thinking the distance to be melee range so breaking after 5m or so. Obviously, the main problem would come from this being taxing on stamina. A roll dodge could take you far enough to break it only for you to immediately be feared (similar to magDk using talons into petrify). Of course, talons does not prevent you from healing. So there is still that to consider.

Thanks for your time!
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Jabbs_Giggity

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

The_Lex

The_Lex wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Something like this. They said they're looking into counterplay, and I think this could be a basic yet good solution.

See, this is what really pisses me off. They said "they're looking into counterplay," meaning they have no effing idea what they're doing. How do you implement incap silence (which currently has little, if any, real counterplay options for a light armor mag class), and not have already thought about said counterplay? I mean, this shows you that they are not thinking about the consequences of their "balancing" decisions.

https://youtu.be/mlrL6Mdg85M