PTS Update 22 - Feedback Thread for Class Balance

BrokenGameMechanics

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So.. about incap... if you are mag character (try to be as much objective and not biased as possible) - what would you replace the silence part with ? Honest question.

I would "fix it" with Major Mute and Major Disarm.

The Mute debuff reduces Spell Damage some percent for some duration.
The Disarm debuff reduces Weapon Damage some percent for some duration.

For balance purposes we adjust the percentage to just enough where my healing, damage, shielding etc is reduced but with a bit of luck and a bunch of skill I have a fighting chance, but no guarantee, to survive the Incap, but high enough where the Incap puts me at a very severe disadvantage, where try as I might, yep they got me.

Maybe they take Spell and Weapon damage to zero for 5 seconds or so.

Strider__Roshin

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

HankTwo

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

On my magplar puncturing sweep feels far from underwhelming.

1. On my current build puncturing is usually the only AOE that doesn't require a target apart from my ult (next patch I'll drop reflective light for solar barrage, though).
2. I only see problems with this if its very laggy. being able to switch targets while channeling adds more depth to this skill and I really enjoy the unique feeling of it.
3. There is a bit of an argument concerning evasion, but CP and resistances? Really? How is that different to any other skill?
4. Opponents using race against time could indeed become problematic for melee templar builds, but a targeted channel wouldn't work any better against opponents moving out of range. Additionally, none of the templar snares, including puncturing sweep, will be nerfed. The other snare nerfs are completely irrelevant here. Moving the snare to the first hit could be a decent idea, but might be too oppressive, since 70% movement speed reduction is insanely high.
5. I don't have any problems weaving light attacks while using puncturing. Sure you won't get as many LA out as with a 'normal' spammable, but weaving definitely works.
6. Puncturing has an amazing damage potential for it's magicka cost. It's not always easy to land all the hits, but when it isn't laggy (BGs or low to medium pop Cyro) I don't have problems aiming this skill.

Post note: maybe playing a *** ton of time with both dizzying swing and noxious breath on my stamDK helped me out here, but when I started playing magplar I immediately felt comfortable using puncturing and the skill never seemed 'extremely underwhelming' to me, unless it was super laggy (in which case playing as a whole becomes a bad experience).

Edit: I mostly play BGs now, because I can't stand the lag in primetime Cyro, no matter which char I play. However, I could see why players who mostly play in CP campaigns would feel that sweeps/jabs are underwhelming. Skills like dizzying, jabs, noxious breath and other conal AOEs become disproportionally harder to use with more lag compared to targeted skills. That's more of a server performance issue, though.

Cinbri

@Joy_Division @Checkmath
Is there any chance that:
1. Jabs declared improvement with weaving will actually work?
2. Backlash mitigation bug will be fixed?
3. Purifying Light debuff will be adjusted and proc on initial cast like other morph, given that its new mechanic combined with old proc conditions are buggy?
^especially last part as it is huge nerf to skill.

Derra

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

You know - gotta admit i wouldn´t have expected such a reasonable proposition from you.

Checkmath

Cinbri wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Checkmath
Is there any chance that:
1. Jabs declared improvement with weaving will actually work?
2. Backlash mitigation bug will be fixed?
3. Purifying Light debuff will be adjusted and proc on initial cast like other morph, given that its new mechanic combined with old proc conditions are buggy?
^especially last part as it is huge nerf to skill.

I cant really answer those ones, since approaching those problems lies in the hands of the devs.

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

On my magplar puncturing sweep feels far from underwhelming.

1. On my current build puncturing is usually the only AOE that doesn't require a target apart from my ult (next patch I'll drop reflective light for solar barrage, though).
2. I only see problems with this if its very laggy. being able to switch targets while channeling adds more depth to this skill and I really enjoy the unique feeling of it.
3. There is a bit of an argument concerning evasion, but CP and resistances? Really? How is that different to any other skill?
4. Opponents using race against time could indeed become problematic for melee templar builds, but a targeted channel wouldn't work any better against opponents moving out of range. Additionally, none of the templar snares, including puncturing sweep, will be nerfed. The other snare nerfs are completely irrelevant here. Moving the snare to the first hit could be a decent idea, but might be too oppressive, since 70% movement speed reduction is insanely high.
5. I don't have any problems weaving light attacks while using puncturing. Sure you won't get as many LA out as with a 'normal' spammable, but weaving definitely works.
6. Puncturing has an amazing damage potential for it's magicka cost. It's not always easy to land all the hits, but when it isn't laggy (BGs or low to medium pop Cyro) I don't have problems aiming this skill.

Post note: maybe playing a *** ton of time with both dizzying swing and noxious breath on my stamDK helped me out here, but when I started playing magplar I immediately felt comfortable using puncturing and the skill never seemed 'extremely underwhelming' to me, unless it was super laggy (in which case playing as a whole becomes a bad experience).

Edit: I mostly play BGs now, because I can't stand the lag in primetime Cyro, no matter which char I play. However, I could see why players who mostly play in CP campaigns would feel that sweeps/jabs are underwhelming. Skills like dizzying, jabs, noxious breath and other conal AOEs become disproportionally harder to use with more lag compared to targeted skills. That's more of a server performance issue, though.

For point 3: Jabs was mitigated by multiple cp stars (more than any other skills, which are reduced by two stars), that is why that point is listed.
Point 4: Since there is no guarantee, that you can hit with every jab, people should be rewarded for landing all or already most of them (3 or 4 of all 4), meanwhile you shouldnt be punished too much, when you hit with less. The problem in PvP with fast moving targets is, that people are shown in your area of damage, but they actually arent due to latency. Therefore you generally hit with less jab hits as you should and you get punished by the mechanics of the skill.
Point 5: on the current PTS there is an improvement for the cast time and post cast delay. The cast time was shortened to 1 second (down from 1.1s) and the post delay (0.2 seconds) is said to be removed, which actually is not the case when you weave. So the poster before was addressing to this problem, that the post delay is still there when weaving.
Point 6: As said in point 4, it should reward more for the people managing to land it and should punish less, if you dont land all hits.

HankTwo

Checkmath wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Checkmath
Is there any chance that:
1. Jabs declared improvement with weaving will actually work?
2. Backlash mitigation bug will be fixed?
3. Purifying Light debuff will be adjusted and proc on initial cast like other morph, given that its new mechanic combined with old proc conditions are buggy?
^especially last part as it is huge nerf to skill.

I cant really answer those ones, since approaching those problems lies in the hands of the devs.

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

On my magplar puncturing sweep feels far from underwhelming.

1. On my current build puncturing is usually the only AOE that doesn't require a target apart from my ult (next patch I'll drop reflective light for solar barrage, though).
2. I only see problems with this if its very laggy. being able to switch targets while channeling adds more depth to this skill and I really enjoy the unique feeling of it.
3. There is a bit of an argument concerning evasion, but CP and resistances? Really? How is that different to any other skill?
4. Opponents using race against time could indeed become problematic for melee templar builds, but a targeted channel wouldn't work any better against opponents moving out of range. Additionally, none of the templar snares, including puncturing sweep, will be nerfed. The other snare nerfs are completely irrelevant here. Moving the snare to the first hit could be a decent idea, but might be too oppressive, since 70% movement speed reduction is insanely high.
5. I don't have any problems weaving light attacks while using puncturing. Sure you won't get as many LA out as with a 'normal' spammable, but weaving definitely works.
6. Puncturing has an amazing damage potential for it's magicka cost. It's not always easy to land all the hits, but when it isn't laggy (BGs or low to medium pop Cyro) I don't have problems aiming this skill.

Post note: maybe playing a *** ton of time with both dizzying swing and noxious breath on my stamDK helped me out here, but when I started playing magplar I immediately felt comfortable using puncturing and the skill never seemed 'extremely underwhelming' to me, unless it was super laggy (in which case playing as a whole becomes a bad experience).

Edit: I mostly play BGs now, because I can't stand the lag in primetime Cyro, no matter which char I play. However, I could see why players who mostly play in CP campaigns would feel that sweeps/jabs are underwhelming. Skills like dizzying, jabs, noxious breath and other conal AOEs become disproportionally harder to use with more lag compared to targeted skills. That's more of a server performance issue, though.

For point 3: Jabs was mitigated by multiple cp stars (more than any other skills, which are reduced by two stars), that is why that point is listed.
Point 4: Since there is no guarantee, that you can hit with every jab, people should be rewarded for landing all or already most of them (3 or 4 of all 4), meanwhile you shouldnt be punished too much, when you hit with less. The problem in PvP with fast moving targets is, that people are shown in your area of damage, but they actually arent due to latency. Therefore you generally hit with less jab hits as you should and you get punished by the mechanics of the skill.
Point 5: on the current PTS there is an improvement for the cast time and post cast delay. The cast time was shortened to 1 second (down from 1.1s) and the post delay (0.2 seconds) is said to be removed, which actually is not the case when you weave. So the poster before was addressing to this problem, that the post delay is still there when weaving.
Point 6: As said in point 4, it should reward more for the people managing to land it and should punish less, if you dont land all hits.

Point 3: You say it was mitigated by more CPs than other magic DOT abilities. What is the current state of this? I mostly play no CP, so I haven't done much CP damage tests myself. Even if its still true, than that's just a bug that should be fixed.
Point 4: This is a bit of a contradiction. If jabs behaves in a way that rewards you for hitting 3 or 4 times, then it must feel punishing to hit 2 or less by default. Still, can you give me an example idea how you would imagine such a system? To make it feel less punishing, maybe something like a small mag return for each jab that didn't connect to anything? About your second point, as you said yourself this is mostly a latency/lag issue. I agree that jabs works even worse than most other skills in lag, similar to dizzying. Still, in BGs I hardly ever have these problems, so jabs feel fine there.
Point 5: Yeah, I know about this change, but can't test it myself right now, since I don't have the PTS installed. If the delay is still there when weaving, then that's simply a bug that should get fixed. All I'm saying is that weaving works for me with the current version of jabs.

John_Falstaff

Actually, I would be on board with, instead of silence, giving it reduction of target's weapon and spell damage by a certain percentage. It would be something new. And yes, percentage and not flat amount, because I'd rather have the ability useful in PvE too - and right now in PvE the weakening enchantment on a tank is hardly useful, since nobody places Weakening on a trash mob (that doesn't hit for much anyway), and on bosses the base weapon/spell damage is so high that subtracting a small flat amount doesn't do anything - the stronger the target, the less effective Weakening is.

So basically, could give NBs something that wouldn't completely shut down opponents in PvP, but at the same time would be useful for poor NB tanks as a debuff that mitigates damage to the group.

Firstmep

HankTwo wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Checkmath
Is there any chance that:
1. Jabs declared improvement with weaving will actually work?
2. Backlash mitigation bug will be fixed?
3. Purifying Light debuff will be adjusted and proc on initial cast like other morph, given that its new mechanic combined with old proc conditions are buggy?
^especially last part as it is huge nerf to skill.

I cant really answer those ones, since approaching those problems lies in the hands of the devs.

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

On my magplar puncturing sweep feels far from underwhelming.

1. On my current build puncturing is usually the only AOE that doesn't require a target apart from my ult (next patch I'll drop reflective light for solar barrage, though).
2. I only see problems with this if its very laggy. being able to switch targets while channeling adds more depth to this skill and I really enjoy the unique feeling of it.
3. There is a bit of an argument concerning evasion, but CP and resistances? Really? How is that different to any other skill?
4. Opponents using race against time could indeed become problematic for melee templar builds, but a targeted channel wouldn't work any better against opponents moving out of range. Additionally, none of the templar snares, including puncturing sweep, will be nerfed. The other snare nerfs are completely irrelevant here. Moving the snare to the first hit could be a decent idea, but might be too oppressive, since 70% movement speed reduction is insanely high.
5. I don't have any problems weaving light attacks while using puncturing. Sure you won't get as many LA out as with a 'normal' spammable, but weaving definitely works.
6. Puncturing has an amazing damage potential for it's magicka cost. It's not always easy to land all the hits, but when it isn't laggy (BGs or low to medium pop Cyro) I don't have problems aiming this skill.

Post note: maybe playing a *** ton of time with both dizzying swing and noxious breath on my stamDK helped me out here, but when I started playing magplar I immediately felt comfortable using puncturing and the skill never seemed 'extremely underwhelming' to me, unless it was super laggy (in which case playing as a whole becomes a bad experience).

Edit: I mostly play BGs now, because I can't stand the lag in primetime Cyro, no matter which char I play. However, I could see why players who mostly play in CP campaigns would feel that sweeps/jabs are underwhelming. Skills like dizzying, jabs, noxious breath and other conal AOEs become disproportionally harder to use with more lag compared to targeted skills. That's more of a server performance issue, though.

For point 3: Jabs was mitigated by multiple cp stars (more than any other skills, which are reduced by two stars), that is why that point is listed.
Point 4: Since there is no guarantee, that you can hit with every jab, people should be rewarded for landing all or already most of them (3 or 4 of all 4), meanwhile you shouldnt be punished too much, when you hit with less. The problem in PvP with fast moving targets is, that people are shown in your area of damage, but they actually arent due to latency. Therefore you generally hit with less jab hits as you should and you get punished by the mechanics of the skill.
Point 5: on the current PTS there is an improvement for the cast time and post cast delay. The cast time was shortened to 1 second (down from 1.1s) and the post delay (0.2 seconds) is said to be removed, which actually is not the case when you weave. So the poster before was addressing to this problem, that the post delay is still there when weaving.
Point 6: As said in point 4, it should reward more for the people managing to land it and should punish less, if you dont land all hits.

Point 3: You say it was mitigated by more CPs than other magic DOT abilities. What is the current state of this? I mostly play no CP, so I haven't done much CP damage tests myself. Even if its still true, than that's just a bug that should be fixed.
Point 4: This is a bit of a contradiction. If jabs behaves in a way that rewards you for hitting 3 or 4 times, then it must feel punishing to hit 2 or less by default. Still, can you give me an example idea how you would imagine such a system? To make it feel less punishing, maybe something like a small mag return for each jab that didn't connect to anything? About your second point, as you said yourself this is mostly a latency/lag issue. I agree that jabs works even worse than most other skills in lag, similar to dizzying. Still, in BGs I hardly ever have these problems, so jabs feel fine there.
Point 5: Yeah, I know about this change, but can't test it myself right now, since I don't have the PTS installed. If the delay is still there when weaving, then that's simply a bug that should get fixed. All I'm saying is that weaving works for me with the current version of jabs.

Weaving with jabs is not an issue, its the fact that the ability right now, takes longer to channel than a single global cooldown, thus putting it behind instant cast spammables, and the pts changes havent made it better, when you also accoun weaving.

In comparison, suprise attack delivers all of its damage in a single blow, and thus you dont get behind the curve in terms of gcd.
The total damage of biting jabs is higher(assuming the closest target hit, and equal stats otherwise) than suprise attacks, however that damage is delivered by a 1.1 second channeled aoe ability.
Suprise attack can also be animation cancelled with blocking/bashing/dodging, if you do that with jabs, you lose out on most of the damage of the attack, including possible burning light procs.

The fact that major evasion reduces the single target portion of jabs, would be fair, if the ability wasnt a channel, but a straight up PBAOE ability with instant cast. Jabs is also directional, and hitting multiple targets can actually reduce you single target damage, since burning light can proc on any of the targets hit rather than your primary target.

I really hope ZOS will do an audit for Templar in the future where they reevaluate if we need this many cast time/channeled abilities.

Minno

HankTwo wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Checkmath
Is there any chance that:
1. Jabs declared improvement with weaving will actually work?
2. Backlash mitigation bug will be fixed?
3. Purifying Light debuff will be adjusted and proc on initial cast like other morph, given that its new mechanic combined with old proc conditions are buggy?
^especially last part as it is huge nerf to skill.

I cant really answer those ones, since approaching those problems lies in the hands of the devs.

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

On my magplar puncturing sweep feels far from underwhelming.

1. On my current build puncturing is usually the only AOE that doesn't require a target apart from my ult (next patch I'll drop reflective light for solar barrage, though).
2. I only see problems with this if its very laggy. being able to switch targets while channeling adds more depth to this skill and I really enjoy the unique feeling of it.
3. There is a bit of an argument concerning evasion, but CP and resistances? Really? How is that different to any other skill?
4. Opponents using race against time could indeed become problematic for melee templar builds, but a targeted channel wouldn't work any better against opponents moving out of range. Additionally, none of the templar snares, including puncturing sweep, will be nerfed. The other snare nerfs are completely irrelevant here. Moving the snare to the first hit could be a decent idea, but might be too oppressive, since 70% movement speed reduction is insanely high.
5. I don't have any problems weaving light attacks while using puncturing. Sure you won't get as many LA out as with a 'normal' spammable, but weaving definitely works.
6. Puncturing has an amazing damage potential for it's magicka cost. It's not always easy to land all the hits, but when it isn't laggy (BGs or low to medium pop Cyro) I don't have problems aiming this skill.

Post note: maybe playing a *** ton of time with both dizzying swing and noxious breath on my stamDK helped me out here, but when I started playing magplar I immediately felt comfortable using puncturing and the skill never seemed 'extremely underwhelming' to me, unless it was super laggy (in which case playing as a whole becomes a bad experience).

Edit: I mostly play BGs now, because I can't stand the lag in primetime Cyro, no matter which char I play. However, I could see why players who mostly play in CP campaigns would feel that sweeps/jabs are underwhelming. Skills like dizzying, jabs, noxious breath and other conal AOEs become disproportionally harder to use with more lag compared to targeted skills. That's more of a server performance issue, though.

For point 3: Jabs was mitigated by multiple cp stars (more than any other skills, which are reduced by two stars), that is why that point is listed.
Point 4: Since there is no guarantee, that you can hit with every jab, people should be rewarded for landing all or already most of them (3 or 4 of all 4), meanwhile you shouldnt be punished too much, when you hit with less. The problem in PvP with fast moving targets is, that people are shown in your area of damage, but they actually arent due to latency. Therefore you generally hit with less jab hits as you should and you get punished by the mechanics of the skill.
Point 5: on the current PTS there is an improvement for the cast time and post cast delay. The cast time was shortened to 1 second (down from 1.1s) and the post delay (0.2 seconds) is said to be removed, which actually is not the case when you weave. So the poster before was addressing to this problem, that the post delay is still there when weaving.
Point 6: As said in point 4, it should reward more for the people managing to land it and should punish less, if you dont land all hits.

Point 3: You say it was mitigated by more CPs than other magic DOT abilities. What is the current state of this? I mostly play no CP, so I haven't done much CP damage tests myself. Even if its still true, than that's just a bug that should be fixed.
Point 4: This is a bit of a contradiction. If jabs behaves in a way that rewards you for hitting 3 or 4 times, then it must feel punishing to hit 2 or less by default. Still, can you give me an example idea how you would imagine such a system? To make it feel less punishing, maybe something like a small mag return for each jab that didn't connect to anything? About your second point, as you said yourself this is mostly a latency/lag issue. I agree that jabs works even worse than most other skills in lag, similar to dizzying. Still, in BGs I hardly ever have these problems, so jabs feel fine there.
Point 5: Yeah, I know about this change, but can't test it myself right now, since I don't have the PTS installed. If the delay is still there when weaving, then that's simply a bug that should get fixed. All I'm saying is that weaving works for me with the current version of jabs.

wrobel couldnt figure out the jab bugs with CP so they buffed it by 10% lol.

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Checkmath
Is there any chance that:
1. Jabs declared improvement with weaving will actually work?
2. Backlash mitigation bug will be fixed?
3. Purifying Light debuff will be adjusted and proc on initial cast like other morph, given that its new mechanic combined with old proc conditions are buggy?
^especially last part as it is huge nerf to skill.

I cant really answer those ones, since approaching those problems lies in the hands of the devs.

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

On my magplar puncturing sweep feels far from underwhelming.

1. On my current build puncturing is usually the only AOE that doesn't require a target apart from my ult (next patch I'll drop reflective light for solar barrage, though).
2. I only see problems with this if its very laggy. being able to switch targets while channeling adds more depth to this skill and I really enjoy the unique feeling of it.
3. There is a bit of an argument concerning evasion, but CP and resistances? Really? How is that different to any other skill?
4. Opponents using race against time could indeed become problematic for melee templar builds, but a targeted channel wouldn't work any better against opponents moving out of range. Additionally, none of the templar snares, including puncturing sweep, will be nerfed. The other snare nerfs are completely irrelevant here. Moving the snare to the first hit could be a decent idea, but might be too oppressive, since 70% movement speed reduction is insanely high.
5. I don't have any problems weaving light attacks while using puncturing. Sure you won't get as many LA out as with a 'normal' spammable, but weaving definitely works.
6. Puncturing has an amazing damage potential for it's magicka cost. It's not always easy to land all the hits, but when it isn't laggy (BGs or low to medium pop Cyro) I don't have problems aiming this skill.

Post note: maybe playing a *** ton of time with both dizzying swing and noxious breath on my stamDK helped me out here, but when I started playing magplar I immediately felt comfortable using puncturing and the skill never seemed 'extremely underwhelming' to me, unless it was super laggy (in which case playing as a whole becomes a bad experience).

Edit: I mostly play BGs now, because I can't stand the lag in primetime Cyro, no matter which char I play. However, I could see why players who mostly play in CP campaigns would feel that sweeps/jabs are underwhelming. Skills like dizzying, jabs, noxious breath and other conal AOEs become disproportionally harder to use with more lag compared to targeted skills. That's more of a server performance issue, though.

For point 3: Jabs was mitigated by multiple cp stars (more than any other skills, which are reduced by two stars), that is why that point is listed.
Point 4: Since there is no guarantee, that you can hit with every jab, people should be rewarded for landing all or already most of them (3 or 4 of all 4), meanwhile you shouldnt be punished too much, when you hit with less. The problem in PvP with fast moving targets is, that people are shown in your area of damage, but they actually arent due to latency. Therefore you generally hit with less jab hits as you should and you get punished by the mechanics of the skill.
Point 5: on the current PTS there is an improvement for the cast time and post cast delay. The cast time was shortened to 1 second (down from 1.1s) and the post delay (0.2 seconds) is said to be removed, which actually is not the case when you weave. So the poster before was addressing to this problem, that the post delay is still there when weaving.
Point 6: As said in point 4, it should reward more for the people managing to land it and should punish less, if you dont land all hits.

Check, Cinbri is asking if the devs have any news on those 3 points!

Checkmath

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Checkmath
Is there any chance that:
1. Jabs declared improvement with weaving will actually work?
2. Backlash mitigation bug will be fixed?
3. Purifying Light debuff will be adjusted and proc on initial cast like other morph, given that its new mechanic combined with old proc conditions are buggy?
^especially last part as it is huge nerf to skill.

I cant really answer those ones, since approaching those problems lies in the hands of the devs.

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

On my magplar puncturing sweep feels far from underwhelming.

1. On my current build puncturing is usually the only AOE that doesn't require a target apart from my ult (next patch I'll drop reflective light for solar barrage, though).
2. I only see problems with this if its very laggy. being able to switch targets while channeling adds more depth to this skill and I really enjoy the unique feeling of it.
3. There is a bit of an argument concerning evasion, but CP and resistances? Really? How is that different to any other skill?
4. Opponents using race against time could indeed become problematic for melee templar builds, but a targeted channel wouldn't work any better against opponents moving out of range. Additionally, none of the templar snares, including puncturing sweep, will be nerfed. The other snare nerfs are completely irrelevant here. Moving the snare to the first hit could be a decent idea, but might be too oppressive, since 70% movement speed reduction is insanely high.
5. I don't have any problems weaving light attacks while using puncturing. Sure you won't get as many LA out as with a 'normal' spammable, but weaving definitely works.
6. Puncturing has an amazing damage potential for it's magicka cost. It's not always easy to land all the hits, but when it isn't laggy (BGs or low to medium pop Cyro) I don't have problems aiming this skill.

Post note: maybe playing a *** ton of time with both dizzying swing and noxious breath on my stamDK helped me out here, but when I started playing magplar I immediately felt comfortable using puncturing and the skill never seemed 'extremely underwhelming' to me, unless it was super laggy (in which case playing as a whole becomes a bad experience).

Edit: I mostly play BGs now, because I can't stand the lag in primetime Cyro, no matter which char I play. However, I could see why players who mostly play in CP campaigns would feel that sweeps/jabs are underwhelming. Skills like dizzying, jabs, noxious breath and other conal AOEs become disproportionally harder to use with more lag compared to targeted skills. That's more of a server performance issue, though.

For point 3: Jabs was mitigated by multiple cp stars (more than any other skills, which are reduced by two stars), that is why that point is listed.
Point 4: Since there is no guarantee, that you can hit with every jab, people should be rewarded for landing all or already most of them (3 or 4 of all 4), meanwhile you shouldnt be punished too much, when you hit with less. The problem in PvP with fast moving targets is, that people are shown in your area of damage, but they actually arent due to latency. Therefore you generally hit with less jab hits as you should and you get punished by the mechanics of the skill.
Point 5: on the current PTS there is an improvement for the cast time and post cast delay. The cast time was shortened to 1 second (down from 1.1s) and the post delay (0.2 seconds) is said to be removed, which actually is not the case when you weave. So the poster before was addressing to this problem, that the post delay is still there when weaving.
Point 6: As said in point 4, it should reward more for the people managing to land it and should punish less, if you dont land all hits.

Check, Cinbri is asking if the devs have any news on those 3 points!

I answered already in my previous post.

Xvorg

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

Great idea...

Minno

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Joy_Division @Checkmath
Is there any chance that:
1. Jabs declared improvement with weaving will actually work?
2. Backlash mitigation bug will be fixed?
3. Purifying Light debuff will be adjusted and proc on initial cast like other morph, given that its new mechanic combined with old proc conditions are buggy?
^especially last part as it is huge nerf to skill.

I cant really answer those ones, since approaching those problems lies in the hands of the devs.

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Here again how inconsistently zos treating Jabs and Eclipse:


Jabs - zos continuing to treat it as ordinary aoe skill affected by evasion. And now with 0.3 less channel time it should work like rest of abilities with 1sec global cooldown. Yet, Jabs were left outside of AoE standardization this update as its base aoe damage is much lower than ordinary aoe damage: 114x4= 456 while rest of AoEs are 615. difference is huuge.
As result: as single-target spammable skill underperform as it can be mitigated by Evasion buff; and also as AoE damage skill it also below of AoE standards.

Eclipse - not just after damage nerf it comparable to damage of self-buffs like Scales/Ice Shield that is rudiculous, but also damage of this single-target breakable cc skill is equal to ordinary AoE damage now. So why does our single target skill with longest Internal Cooldown suppose to deal as much damage as AoE (which suppose to deal lower damage coz area of damage apply in compare to single target pressure skills)?
If zos treat it as self-buffs which are 100% reliable but only against half of attacks (ranged) - make Eclipse unbreakable again and buff its duration from 6sec to 7sec:
1. It already act on same rules of Morrowind unbreakable version, so right now it has weaknesses of unbreakable Morrowind version but don't have strengths of breakable pre-Morrowind version.
2. Beside it wont work against CC-immune enemies, it will be reliable against all attacks (melee/ranged) but only with half efficiency because 7sec duration-7sec cc-immunity. Literally reverted self-buff: self-buffs are 100% efficiency against 50% attacks, Eclipse is 50% efficiency against 100% attacks. (still cooldown inconsistent too).
Or just like was suggested lot of times - make it into ordinary dot with same rules that Inhale has regarding damage-healing skill % of new standards.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam @Checkmath

I mean seriously...can Templar be reviewed during 5.03 with an equivalency effort of at least a 6th grade reading/comprehension level?

Literally all that has to be done with Puncturing Strikes and Morphs is:
1. Change the cone/area targeting system of the skill to Target
2. Change the function of the Main damage "nearest target" strike to Single Target damage from AOE damage (Or make AOE damage an exception from Evasion)
3. Change the function of the AOE damage to standard "Splash Damage" within 3m of target.
4. On Biting Jabs move the Snare to the first strike.
5. Make the heal from Sweeps able to Crit again.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

I very much disagree with points 1 to 3. Being able to freely cast jabs/sweeps without a target (--> cloaked NBs), as well as the ability to change targets while channeling this skill is one of the core aspects that make it unique. I don't want a cheap copy of flurry.

Sure, jabs can be hard to use when its laggy, but when you have a decent game performance the skill is incredibly satisfying and fun to use.

I am grateful for your opinion, but it has been stated many times and is extremely underwhelming.

1. NB cloak can be broken through multiple methods: Potions, Expert Hunter (& Morphs), Magelight (& Morphs), literally any AOE > Solar Barrage, Shards, Radiant Ward, list goes on...
2. Changing targets is half of the problem with a "Conal" damage skill because you cannot effectively output full skill damage. Which leads me to the next...
3. Damage output can be mitigated by multiple factors, such as Evasion = Flat 25% reduction, CP Trees, Resistance. Now you factor in lag and latency. So many proven writeups have been posted by @Cinbri regarding condition of Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) regarding "accuracy". Majority of the time you are hitting 1-in-4 strikes = 25% damage output max. Then you factor in the things like Evasion, CP, Resistances...No one wants to hit for 100-300 damage with a skill that can tooltip 4K plus before critting.
4. With speed becoming a factor again next patch, due to changes in CC Immunity and Snare nerf Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) will again be bottom of the barrel spammable.

Also, don't forget that Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) STILL exceed the GCD when "attempting" to LA weave effectively.

Post-Note to OP: Puncturing Strikes (& Morphs) should also have Channel time reduced to .2 sec PER strike and fourth strike should be removed (damage to scale up for missing strike) to allow better response when LA weaving.

On my magplar puncturing sweep feels far from underwhelming.

1. On my current build puncturing is usually the only AOE that doesn't require a target apart from my ult (next patch I'll drop reflective light for solar barrage, though).
2. I only see problems with this if its very laggy. being able to switch targets while channeling adds more depth to this skill and I really enjoy the unique feeling of it.
3. There is a bit of an argument concerning evasion, but CP and resistances? Really? How is that different to any other skill?
4. Opponents using race against time could indeed become problematic for melee templar builds, but a targeted channel wouldn't work any better against opponents moving out of range. Additionally, none of the templar snares, including puncturing sweep, will be nerfed. The other snare nerfs are completely irrelevant here. Moving the snare to the first hit could be a decent idea, but might be too oppressive, since 70% movement speed reduction is insanely high.
5. I don't have any problems weaving light attacks while using puncturing. Sure you won't get as many LA out as with a 'normal' spammable, but weaving definitely works.
6. Puncturing has an amazing damage potential for it's magicka cost. It's not always easy to land all the hits, but when it isn't laggy (BGs or low to medium pop Cyro) I don't have problems aiming this skill.

Post note: maybe playing a *** ton of time with both dizzying swing and noxious breath on my stamDK helped me out here, but when I started playing magplar I immediately felt comfortable using puncturing and the skill never seemed 'extremely underwhelming' to me, unless it was super laggy (in which case playing as a whole becomes a bad experience).

Edit: I mostly play BGs now, because I can't stand the lag in primetime Cyro, no matter which char I play. However, I could see why players who mostly play in CP campaigns would feel that sweeps/jabs are underwhelming. Skills like dizzying, jabs, noxious breath and other conal AOEs become disproportionally harder to use with more lag compared to targeted skills. That's more of a server performance issue, though.

For point 3: Jabs was mitigated by multiple cp stars (more than any other skills, which are reduced by two stars), that is why that point is listed.
Point 4: Since there is no guarantee, that you can hit with every jab, people should be rewarded for landing all or already most of them (3 or 4 of all 4), meanwhile you shouldnt be punished too much, when you hit with less. The problem in PvP with fast moving targets is, that people are shown in your area of damage, but they actually arent due to latency. Therefore you generally hit with less jab hits as you should and you get punished by the mechanics of the skill.
Point 5: on the current PTS there is an improvement for the cast time and post cast delay. The cast time was shortened to 1 second (down from 1.1s) and the post delay (0.2 seconds) is said to be removed, which actually is not the case when you weave. So the poster before was addressing to this problem, that the post delay is still there when weaving.
Point 6: As said in point 4, it should reward more for the people managing to land it and should punish less, if you dont land all hits.

Check, Cinbri is asking if the devs have any news on those 3 points!

So you saying templar is more on the backburner than NB/necro/dragons? lol

This PTS is on so many levels of messed up lol.

Strider__Roshin

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

You know - gotta admit i wouldn´t have expected such a reasonable proposition from you.

I may be bitter, but I would actually prefer healthy, and competitive gameplay. Just wish you guys would fight against things that are toxic towards my playstyle as well. Which is essentially non-invisibility medium armor.

ccmedaddy

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

You know - gotta admit i wouldn´t have expected such a reasonable proposition from you.

I may be bitter, but I would actually prefer healthy, and competitive gameplay. Just wish you guys would fight against things that are toxic towards my playstyle as well. Which is essentially non-invisibility medium armor.

Your entire posting history suggests otherwise lol. You're literally the #1 requester of nerfs here.

Strider__Roshin

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

You know - gotta admit i wouldn´t have expected such a reasonable proposition from you.

I may be bitter, but I would actually prefer healthy, and competitive gameplay. Just wish you guys would fight against things that are toxic towards my playstyle as well. Which is essentially non-invisibility medium armor.

Your entire posting history suggests otherwise lol. You're literally the #1 requester of nerfs here.

Because I'm a big fan of counterplay, and ZOS is not. So expect me to be a broken record until they share my philosophy.

Derra

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

You know - gotta admit i wouldn´t have expected such a reasonable proposition from you.

I may be bitter, but I would actually prefer healthy, and competitive gameplay. Just wish you guys would fight against things that are toxic towards my playstyle as well. Which is essentially non-invisibility medium armor.

I´d be all up for rebalancing soulassault in that regard. I hate hardcounters and think they should not exist in a game like eso at all.
If we´re lucky lolassault will be on the chopping block rather sooner than later because ZOS has started removing hardcounters from the game. Maybe make a topic. Remind people that it´s still an issue.

I can´t even put my finger on what medium armor needs though. Stamwarden can/does work in medium. NB does (or did we don´t know yet). StamDK can work - but is definetly better in heavy.
Stamsorc and stamden don´t - but those are underperforming in general from my perspective.

katorga

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

You know - gotta admit i wouldn´t have expected such a reasonable proposition from you.

I may be bitter, but I would actually prefer healthy, and competitive gameplay. Just wish you guys would fight against things that are toxic towards my playstyle as well. Which is essentially non-invisibility medium armor.

Well I gotta say, silence on incapacitating strike is a game changer. It shuts down magicka completely, and even other stam classes are seriously impeded. Stam sorc's cannot streak, stamplars cannot purge. DK's and wardens cannot mitigate the spectral bow proc. etc. NB just completely outclassed any "wow" factor Necromancer might have had.

Since it sounds like they are dead set on silence with "counter play", my guess is that whatever counter play solution they come up with at this late date will be buggy or introduce other unintended consequences. Counter play for a persistent silence debuff, itself an entirely NEW game mechanic, would be an entirely NEW mechanic.

Strider__Roshin

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

You know - gotta admit i wouldn´t have expected such a reasonable proposition from you.

I may be bitter, but I would actually prefer healthy, and competitive gameplay. Just wish you guys would fight against things that are toxic towards my playstyle as well. Which is essentially non-invisibility medium armor.

I´d be all up for rebalancing soulassault in that regard. I hate hardcounters and think they should not exist in a game like eso at all.
If we´re lucky lolassault will be on the chopping block rather sooner than later because ZOS has started removing hardcounters from the game. Maybe make a topic. Remind people that it´s still an issue.

I can´t even put my finger on what medium armor needs though. Stamwarden can/does work in medium. NB does (or did we don´t know yet). StamDK can work - but is definetly better in heavy.
Stamsorc and stamden don´t - but those are underperforming in general from my perspective.

Truthfully non-invisibility Nightblades might be fine now with medium armor due to the grim focus change, but we'll see. I honestly would like invisibility to reset the damage mitigation though. What makes Nightblades capable of being strong in medium is the ability to LOS on demand via invisibility; which I think needs to be reworked to be less powerful than it is against single target opponents, but not useless against stamsorcs like it is currently.

Medium is fine in terms of damage and resource management; dodge rolling just needs to be more viable than it is.

I'm aware that people may be rightfully concerned about the grim focus change due to the potency of heavy stamblades, but that's more of an issue with heavy armor still being too strong as well as SnB. Thankfully ZOS has acknowledged at least one of these items.

Jabbs_Giggity

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

So an alternative idea for incapacitating strike.

Keep it how it is currently, but remove silence. Instead how about we make the ability cause additional Oblivion damage equivalent to 1% of your opponent's max health per 10 ultimate stored up to a maximum of 15% (150+ Ult). This will be a PvP only effect since it will be obviously too strong in PvE.

This will make it more bursty than it currently is, unique, and stronger against tanky opponents and damage shield spamming opponents.

You know - gotta admit i wouldn´t have expected such a reasonable proposition from you.

I may be bitter, but I would actually prefer healthy, and competitive gameplay. Just wish you guys would fight against things that are toxic towards my playstyle as well. Which is essentially non-invisibility medium armor.

I´d be all up for rebalancing soulassault in that regard. I hate hardcounters and think they should not exist in a game like eso at all.
If we´re lucky lolassault will be on the chopping block rather sooner than later because ZOS has started removing hardcounters from the game. Maybe make a topic. Remind people that it´s still an issue.

I can´t even put my finger on what medium armor needs though.

1. Soul Assult should be purgeable, like Radiant Oppresion and should fall under LOS rules. However, I don't think it needs a nerf. I can outheal SA with Vigor The problem is when you're Perma-Snared/Rooted and/or Perma-CC'd.

Now just imagine MagBlades using Incap with Silence then SA!

2. Medium Armor needs so many things...

• Better Snare Immunity for Shuffle
  [*[ Passives 1 and 2 are fine.
• Improved Sneak passive should be changed to increase movement speed in sneak 50/100% instead of reduced cost.
• Athletics passive should provide some type of damage mitigation for requiring 5pc of Medium.

LeHarrt91

This is about Warden primarily Magicka Warden DPS.

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?
  
  The blockable Scorch, this skill is detrimental to the combo this class has to use to get kills.
  
  
• Do you feel your class is stronger, weaker, or relatively the same with the standardization pass on class abilities?
  
  Magicka Wardens are relatively the same as current patch... weak especially in pve.
  
  
• Do you feel we addressed abilities that in the past year have been over or under performing?
  
  1. While i understand the intent of the scorch change, it should put in the rule breaker category as its a 3 second delayed aoe not instant.
  2. Many of the under performing abilities were not addressed, they are still lack lustre and inhibit the Magicka Warden DPS
  
  
• Do you have any other general feedback?
  
  The Magicka Warden has 4 normal damaging abilities, this limits build diversity greatly. There are still many skills that are still not interesting, like Arctic Blast, Swarm and Screaming Cliff Racer. They lack uniqueness and utility in both pve and pvp.
  And some skills are still overshadowed by other morphs like Crystallised Slab, Expansive Frost Cloak, Bursting Vines
  

drakeos99

Fix Magden and Magnecro so we able to play in Trials and End game content's im sick of not able to enjoy a class cause all others requires hard rotations that will destroy my fingers and wrist (already have carpal tunnel syndrome) and also requires being fast so please FIX Magden (Pets) and Magika Necromancers (do not leave magnecro behind)

Drdeath20

After all these years of playing my mag necro im very excited for all the buffs they recieved this update. I can finally slot class skills and passives.

Universe

The PTS cycle is almost over and I have yet to see a meaningful balancing to the Warden.
There were a few adjustments, like Scorch being blockable, but it isn't enough.
Currently the Warden, especially the stamina Warden rules Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.
It has top survivability, very high damage and huge healing.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler Please make the Warden more balanced in PVP.
If you won't do more, it will remain overperforming.

wheem_ESO

Universe wrote: »

The PTS cycle is almost over and I have yet to see a meaningful balancing to the Warden.
There were a few adjustments, like Scorch being blockable, but it isn't enough.
Currently the Warden, especially the stamina Warden rules Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.
It has top survivability, very high damage and huge healing.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler Please make the Warden more balanced in PVP.
If you won't do more, it will remain overperforming.

It wouldn't be the first time that Magicka Warden got nerfed because Stamina Warden was OP. For offensive roles in PvP, Magicka Warden really isn't all that great, and is about to become worse - it doesn't need further nerfs.

BalticBlues

Universe wrote: »

Currently the Warden, especially the stamina Warden rules Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

You say this about StamWardens, others say this about StamBlades and StamDKs.
IT IS STAMINA RULING CYRO AND BGS.

As it stands, MagClasses are not getting better this patch.
The last MagClass on par with Stams were PetSorcs, but these will be nerfed.
MagDens get shafted even more. And the new Incap is the final nail on all MagCoffins.

ZOS, MagDens and MagNecros at least need a spammable Execute to compete with Stam.
Why not at least redesign DESTRO-PULSAR as an Execute,
so that Magplayers also have a close-range-execute as Stamplayers have?

The preference for Stam since crippling LA's shield resistance is baffling.
I hate having to play StamWarden because MagWarden is not competitive.
Even more I hate having to play StamNecro when I would prefer playing MagNecro.

Deathlord92

Rygonix wrote: »

I'm getting so very, very tired of you devs fawning over NBS and listening intently to their feedback while doing jack all for the other classes you've deliberately castrated this patch. Please take another look at Templars, seriously

They don’t do anything to Templar’s because they are already strong and if your struggling then it’s a l2p issue 👍

Mitaka211

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Rygonix wrote: »

I'm getting so very, very tired of you devs fawning over NBS and listening intently to their feedback while doing jack all for the other classes you've deliberately castrated this patch. Please take another look at Templars, seriously

They don’t do anything to Templar’s because they are already strong and if your struggling then it’s a l2p issue 👍

You are either a NB or a Magsorc right?

technohic

Universe wrote: »

The PTS cycle is almost over and I have yet to see a meaningful balancing to the Warden.
There were a few adjustments, like Scorch being blockable, but it isn't enough.
Currently the Warden, especially the stamina Warden rules Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.
It has top survivability, very high damage and huge healing.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler Please make the Warden more balanced in PVP.
If you won't do more, it will remain overperforming.

I felt like StamWarden was difficult to deal with until I played one. Mostly it just them catching you when you are in a bigger fight already and blocking shalks will really put a dent on that. A lot of their strength then comes off of their off pool, so don't go range spamming into them, but they are tough.