PTS Update 22 - Feedback Thread for Class Balance

twing1_

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

The damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense. According to the character creation screen, nightblades are described as "relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and now, with the addition of damage mitigation on grim focus, NB also receive more sources of mitigation in their toolkit than any other class:
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-major evasion from blur
-minor maim from summon shade
-15% damage reduction from grim focus

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea? Are NB no longer intended to "rely variously on stealth and speed" to survive, as their class description suggests?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Workable alternatives to the damage reduction stacks on Grim Focus:

1. Major brutality/sorcery. I understand you do not want anything on Grim Focus that will further improve NB damage levels, but putting brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus (and removing it from drain power) will not increase the overall power of the class because it is a buff they already have access to.
2. Stacks of 2% movement speed, for a total of 10%. If you insist on going with the defensive route, please consider movement speed as an alternative to damage mitigation. This would at least stay more true to the class identity.

Updated to include possible alternatives. Please give some amount of serious consideration to them. But the important thing is the removal of the damage reduction.

15% damage reduction more than makes up for the resistance difference between wearing a full 7 pieces of light armor vs wearing a full 7 pieces of heavy armor.

15% damage reduction is the rough equivalent of 9,915 resistances, which is almost double the value of major ward/resolve. And NB now get this in addition to the major ward/resolve that they get passively from using their spammable attack.

15% damage reduction is huge, and has no place in an NB's toolkit. It is contradictory to the class's identity. Replacing this with brutality/sorcery or movement speed would at the very least stay true to the NB class's identity, and also dial the skill back a bit to bring it more in line.

Minno

wheem_ESO wrote: »

hunter937 wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

After seeing the templar changes and indirect changes, here's my updated feedback based on Gina's requested questions.

Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?:
- No, but the lack of changes modernizing some of the outdated templar skills are against the spirit of the class. Or to put it better, the class feels like a lack of an identity and most players feel like the devs are pushing them towards heavy armor healbot roles where they hold block and cast BOL till they die. Not much group debuff/buff, clunky burst/pressure and no AOE cc mechanic lends to templars feeling they cannot operate any role they want without severe downsides compared to other classes.

Are you able to weave abilities better or worse in this Update?
- Yes and No. Cast time changes to GCD result in weird clunky loss in speed. For example, punchering sweeps is faster if I dont light attack afterwards and is slightly slower when I do. Same for things like Dark Flare, wreckling blow, etc.

Do you feel your class is stronger, weaker, or relatively the same with the standardization pass on class abilities?
- weaker. While many audits resulted in finally modernizing the templar kit (toppling being faster, etc) other classes received audits that surpass the balance feedback we gave prior to the new chapter. This results in a weaker class once you compare the buffs DK, Sorcs, and nightblades received as well as the kit from the necromancer.

Do you feel we addressed abilities that in the past year have been over or under performing?
- Yes and no. Some abilities are still underperforming or are clunky/outdated. For example practice incantation only recevie minor adjustment despite ultimate not having been touched since 2015 with rememberance being the superior morph. But you adjusted restoring aura while also looking into the speed/cc function of toppling. 50/50

Do you have any other general feedback?
- Templar still has no clear identity and stamplar has taken heavy nerfs while giving their identity away to stamDK.

Previous Feedback (updates in bold/strikethrough):

Templar
Aedric Spear

Burning Light: great change, needs extensive cyro testing on live however for efficiency tests. Jabs snare is still dodge able though.

Focused Charge: minimum range doesn't match other gap closers, at least ones that grant a secondary effect like lotus fan.fixed
Explosive Charge (morph): no one is using this spell for the AOE dmg. It doesnt break targets out of stealth, requires a target, is too slow, and makes your vulnerable. Niche application as a bomber build but Templar has nothing that helps to escape those situations like a nightblade can.
Toppling Charge (morph): has potential to be a great change. but has same downsides as explosive charge; most serious PVP players deslot this ability since it opens you up to being cc'd and burst. If DMG buff is to be a buff for Templar, then consistency of use must be created.faster and now has no minimum range. fixed

Piercing Javelin: dmg boost buff was weird at range, because templars lack the absolute ranged strength of sorcs to fully use this DMG boost to it's full potential. Skill audit would have shown that one of the magplar pain points is too many cc options that have too many niche applications and all contradict each other. Why run javelin when I can heal+unreflected+unblocked dMG with total dark? But I can't use total dark on cc immune targets and toppling charge becomes generic gap closer when I cast total dark first.

Puncturing Strikes: best change this patch but there's a bug as cinbri noted regarding it's efficiency on pts.

Radial Sweep: great change for range. Still misses targets due to how the hitbox is looking for those targets.
Empowering Sweep (morph): this is hard to swallow because it violates the core reasoning of this patch while increasing the main pain point of stamplar; low survivability after post-nerf of major mending under wrobel. its an AOE 2s pulse that has empower; solar barrage shares this same exact mechanic and thus is instantly redundant. It may be an ultimate, and some pve stamplars love it, but in PvP it takes away from survival for that class.

Spear Shards: good buffs for pve templar but stamplar can't use it. So it's one sided change.

Sun Shield:
.great change for seeing skills and values they bring, because it was tricking both players and devs into thinking this is a great defensive skill. But if blazing was above other options, you'd see it on every templar build and in competitive PvP applications. It doesn't defend well and it doesnt damage well; because of that it will always be replaced by something more damaging or defensive. Radiant ward is perfect for PVE tanks however but the cost increase is a nerf to them sadly. Is 9% per hit good enough for competitive pve? This ability will still find extremely niche use in PvP and it doesn't solve pve tank pain points. dmg off radiant ward is very promising, but it's 10k crits on PVE mobs which means it will only be 2k dmg after all mitigation. blazing shield is still useless

Dawn’s Wrath
Eclipse: great mechanic balance for DKs now. Tooltip Great for knowledge too in understanding how it works,but has core issue of its design rests on this cooldown. damage was originally by wrobel increased to account for this 0.75s cooldown. and to boot, healing was never increase to account for this as well. core ability still suffers in that you are giving targets cc immunity without stopping their actions and the niche applications. Other cc abilities are rendered useless if trying to make most of this spell. Hard to use with new toppling charge since you'll waste two slots for a cc immunity granting spell.

Power of the Light: pve change, while decent, only buffs pve templar healers who did not need buffs on core DPS centered abilities. Dmg loss impacts PVE stamplar and PVP stamplar looking to stretch their dmg to counter the fact their have no defense.

Solar Flare: great change on both speed and cast times. but is 37% dmg reduction worth 0.1 seconds and slightly faster shot? Snipe, receiving similar change, has only a 27% reduction on damage. In comparison, Jabs while received evasion nerfs but got buffs to compensate as well; dark flare should be buffed now that wings is 50% dmg reduction for similar reasons. With reflective light/vamp bane losing ability to be used as a spamable for both instant cast+dot for greater Dmg, dark flare feels more like a redundant ability that functions similarly to vamp bane but only useful on gank builds/zerglings and will never see application in pve. Solar barrage is great change however to help fix it mechanically.

Sun Fire: great change for server calcs, but if dark flare isnt buffed, magplar loses partially efficiency in one aspect of it's (community applied) core identity of "i can do AOE, Melee and range all in one package". Plus ability has issues granting crit buff due to requiring hits instead of cast so it's not functioning according to similar buff spells and thus missed it's chance by the team on their audits.

Restoring Light
Breath of Life: great adjustment for pvp balance. Shame other similar heals in the game don't follow this requirement of positioning and LOS walls (Sorc pet heal for example).

Cleansing Ritual: great change but weird issue with Ritual of retribution. dmg of this spell buffed with highest stat either weapon/stam but is still magic damage so CP scaling will be annoying. Extended ritual is fine as is, though stamplars aren't sitting around for this heal in highly mobile combat.

Practiced Incantation: heal percentage fix didn't really make morph attractive versus rememberance. For a defensive ult, it hasn't been updated according for the highly mobile game design intent, and both morphs haven't really been touched since 2015-2016. Another missed chance to audit to update Templar proactive defense pain point.

Restoring Aura: great change in adding zero cost while increasing duration to match ele drain. Will open up weapon optiosn slightly though major breach is too important to give up and the light attacks off destro staff punish templars looking to experiment with DW/SNB for more paladin looking characters. Possible suggestion is to add major sorcery, while not breach, will help alleviate bar space issues.

All in all, Templar will be bottom barrel compared to mag Sorc buffs, mag dk buffs, stamDK stealing stamplar identity of dot pressure/major mending identity, and necromancer. All other classes can accomplish what they need in less than it takes to setup Templar burst. conclusion still current, but recent changes have helped.

Not sure if you're speaking of stamplar or magplar, but as a magplar player, this patch basically adjusted most of the major painpoints I had with magplar.

1) Toppling charge - The minimum distance on this ability meant that you can not use it as a reliable CC. With no minimum distance, there is no requirement to slot javelin to reliably CC someone. Really hyped for this change.

2) RAT - Being forced to play as vampire was a major painpoint for me as a magplar. But RAT solves two problems with 1. Snare immunity + major expedition, this ability will be a game changer for magplars and even stamplars for specific builds.

3) Empowering/crescent sweep - The range increase from 6m to 8m is a very welcome change. The range was the one reason why I always ended up not using this ultimate. 6m was way too little, especially considering that many melee abilties are more than 6m so you would often miss it even if you use it in melee range. With 8m, it should be much more reliable when you use it in melee range.

4) Radiant aura - Making it free cost will make this ability really good in PVP. The ability already has nice passives, and now it also has a nice active effect. In PVP, this ability will be the more popular means of applying magickasteal since, you can apply it on everyone in 1 GCD. Many naysayers are saying elemental drain will be better, but I can guarantee in BGs, this will be the more popular morph.

5) Puncturing sweep - Channel time reduction is always welcome without damage reduction. Not a major change but still welcome.

6) Repentance - With necromancers coming out, this ability got meta-buffed, since you will have a **** ton of corpses providing free stam and health. This ability might even be worthwhile for magplars who make good use of their stam.


From a PVP perspective, this patch has really addressed many painpoints for magplars. I'm looking forward to playing my magplar after this patch.

You might be wrong on the sixth point. Iirc, templar's repentance and necro's corpses won't interact in any way

they should

No, they shouldn't. A Necromancer utilizing only the Intensive Mender can generate a corpse as quickly as every 4 seconds (plus 2 more every 8-9 seconds if using the Bone Armor and Skeletal Arcanist/Archer abilities) - that's way too much "free" Stam/HP for a Templar, and if he/she has multiple Necromancers on their team, it'd get really ridiculous.

Lore wise didn't make sense repentance would work on necro courses; he's already harvesting the soul to generate the corpse. Templar repentance is converting the soul into healing energy.

Silver_Strider

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

The damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense. According to the character creation screen, nightblades are described as "relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and now, with the addition of damage mitigation on grim focus, NB also receive more sources of mitigation in their toolkit than any other class:
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-major evasion from blur
-minor maim from summon shade
-15% damage reduction from grim focus

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea? Are NB no longer intended to "rely variously on stealth and speed" to survive, as their class description suggests?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Workable alternatives to the damage reduction stacks on Grim Focus:

1. Major brutality/sorcery. I understand you do not want anything on Grim Focus that will further improve NB damage levels, but putting brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus (and removing it from drain power) will not increase the overall power of the class because it is a buff they already have access to.
2. Stacks of 2% movement speed, for a total of 10%. If you insist on going with the defensive route, please consider movement speed as an alternative to damage mitigation. This would at least stay more true to the class identity.

Updated to include possible alternatives. Please give some amount of serious consideration to them. But the important thing is the removal of the damage reduction.

15% damage reduction more than makes up for the resistance difference between wearing a full 7 pieces of light armor vs wearing a full 7 pieces of heavy armor.

15% damage reduction is the rough equivalent of 9,915 resistances, which is almost double the value of major ward/resolve. And NB now get this in addition to the major ward/resolve that they get passively from using their spammable attack.

15% damage reduction is huge, and has no place in an NB's toolkit. It is contradictory to the class's identity. Replacing this with brutality/sorcery or movement speed would at the very least stay true to the NB class's identity, and also dial the skill back a bit to bring it more in line.

By this logic, we should just say screw every spec that is not DK Tanks, Templar healers, Pet Sorc and Stamblade since F all to diversity, right? Well, as someone that actually likes class diversity, I'm going to say no on your definition of class identity because it's narrow minded and constraining. NB is not just a Rouge/Assassin class. It's also a Blood Mage, at one point it was a Leech Tank and an Evasion Tank and now it's becoming a bit of a Death knight, getting stronger as it fights on. Why are you constricting what a NB is, when the classes themselves have multiple specs they can do?

Templar isn't just a Cleric. It can also be a Light Wielding Paladin.
DK isn't just a Warrior. It's can also be a Pyromancer.
Warden isn't just a Beast Tamer. It's also a Fortress of Ice.

Saying that NB is somehow losing its Rouge identity by further refining its other identities is ludicrous because it really didn't lose anything that hurt that identity at all. If anything, I think it got further reinforced considering that Teleport Strike w/ Minor Vulnerability is much better than Minor Berserk in terms of damage output, especially since you can get Minor Berserk a lot easier than you can Minor Vuln on a Stambuild. Your exaggeration and inability to see more than a rouge/assassin is little more than narrow mindedness since it's not losing that identity at all, it's just getting more well rounded overall, and while it does have some pain points in other areas, it's really not this massive affront to God that you seem to be determined to make it out to be.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so painfully obvious that you truly feel this way, which just leaves me cringing instead.

iaminc

Can you rework at least one Templar skill to give some kind off cc.

Necro has one ,
Warden has gripping shards
DK has Talons
Nightblade will have Mass hysteria
Sorcs have rune cage and restraining prison

Templar’s are the only class without something along the lines of the above mainly for tanking purposes because obviously you guys are changing things in line with this ethos of “balance” then surely this needs addressing?

Aloha

iaminc wrote: »

Can you rework at least one Templar skill to give some kind off cc.

Necro has one ,
Warden has gripping shards
DK has Talons
Nightblade will have Mass hysteria
Sorcs have rune cage and restraining prison

Templar’s are the only class without something along the lines of the above mainly for tanking purposes because obviously you guys are changing things in line with this ethos of “balance” then surely this needs addressing?

Charge, spear.

ExistingRug61

Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?
Part of the spirit of the nightblade class is being elusive.

This was supported by having multiple ways to get major expedition, which were each useful in different cases. To me this was part of the identity of the class, however the push to reduce redundancy meant these have been reduced to only having Path of Darkness (and morphs) as the source of major expedition, being lost from Double Take and Cripple (and morphs).

I don't mind with the the change to Double Take as it is still a movement related ability, but I think the change to Cripple is a negative change as this was really thematic skill of draining speed from the enemy to give to yourself. It also has quite a different function to Path of Darkness as Cripple gives expedition in a way that does not limit you to a specific area and can be used either at range or melee whereas Path is a more melee focus and wants you to keep to a specific area.

A potential alternative (short of simply reverting the change) would be to only return some form of short expedition buff back to the Crippling Grasp morph, which would further increase the distinction between it an Debilitate, ie: Crippling Grasp is movement focused and is draining movement from the enemy to give it to you, whereas Debilitate is more sustain focused and drains the enemies speed to return magicka.

twing1_

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

The damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense. According to the character creation screen, nightblades are described as "relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and now, with the addition of damage mitigation on grim focus, NB also receive more sources of mitigation in their toolkit than any other class:
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-major evasion from blur
-minor maim from summon shade
-15% damage reduction from grim focus

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea? Are NB no longer intended to "rely variously on stealth and speed" to survive, as their class description suggests?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Workable alternatives to the damage reduction stacks on Grim Focus:

1. Major brutality/sorcery. I understand you do not want anything on Grim Focus that will further improve NB damage levels, but putting brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus (and removing it from drain power) will not increase the overall power of the class because it is a buff they already have access to.
2. Stacks of 2% movement speed, for a total of 10%. If you insist on going with the defensive route, please consider movement speed as an alternative to damage mitigation. This would at least stay more true to the class identity.

Updated to include possible alternatives. Please give some amount of serious consideration to them. But the important thing is the removal of the damage reduction.

15% damage reduction more than makes up for the resistance difference between wearing a full 7 pieces of light armor vs wearing a full 7 pieces of heavy armor.

15% damage reduction is the rough equivalent of 9,915 resistances, which is almost double the value of major ward/resolve. And NB now get this in addition to the major ward/resolve that they get passively from using their spammable attack.

15% damage reduction is huge, and has no place in an NB's toolkit. It is contradictory to the class's identity. Replacing this with brutality/sorcery or movement speed would at the very least stay true to the NB class's identity, and also dial the skill back a bit to bring it more in line.

By this logic, we should just say screw every spec that is not DK Tanks, Templar healers, Pet Sorc and Stamblade since F all to diversity, right? Well, as someone that actually likes class diversity, I'm going to say no on your definition of class identity because it's narrow minded and constraining. NB is not just a Rouge/Assassin class. It's also a Blood Mage, at one point it was a Leech Tank and an Evasion Tank and now it's becoming a bit of a Death knight, getting stronger as it fights on. Why are you constricting what a NB is, when the classes themselves have multiple specs they can do?

Templar isn't just a Cleric. It can also be a Light Wielding Paladin.
DK isn't just a Warrior. It's can also be a Pyromancer.
Warden isn't just a Beast Tamer. It's also a Fortress of Ice.

Saying that NB is somehow losing its Rouge identity by further refining its other identities is ludicrous because it really didn't lose anything that hurt that identity at all. If anything, I think it got further reinforced considering that Teleport Strike w/ Minor Vulnerability is much better than Minor Berserk in terms of damage output, especially since you can get Minor Berserk a lot easier than you can Minor Vuln on a Stambuild. Your exaggeration and inability to see more than a rouge/assassin is little more than narrow mindedness since it's not losing that identity at all, it's just getting more well rounded overall, and while it does have some pain points in other areas, it's really not this massive affront to God that you seem to be determined to make it out to be.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so painfully obvious that you truly feel this way, which just leaves me cringing instead.

I completely agree with build diversity. I actually main an NB PvE tank (as off meta as that currently is).

And even after the dark cloak nerf, I can tell you that the 15% damage mitigation is not needed. NB tanks already had no problem surviving, so this absurdly strong buff is entirely unwarranted in PvE.

In PvP, this will have the greatest impact, and this is where the issues arise.

Heavy armor NB builds are already incredibly strong, inherent in the high damage potential of the class. This allows them to build more around defense, without giving up as much offense any other class would. Heavy sword and shield NBs are already oftentimes the victors of dueling tournaments, and giving them another 15% mitigation is a bad idea.

No, I'm not saying that NB stealth or gank builds need help to catch up to this brawler playstyle, they too are already very strong. I'm just saying NB brawlers don't need any help either, and definitely not in the form of a buff as strong as an unnamed 15% damage mitigation.

What I'm trying (and possibly failing) to say is that NB are already effective rogues and effective brawlers. The brawler playstyle doesn't need any more encouragement because it is already there and successful. Promoting it further just puts unnecessary emphasis on NB as brawlers over rogues and goes against the original spirit of the class.

phantasmalD

iaminc wrote: »

Can you rework at least one Templar skill to give some kind off cc.

Necro has one ,
Warden has gripping shards
DK has Talons
Nightblade will have Mass hysteria
Sorcs have rune cage and restraining prison

Templar’s are the only class without something along the lines of the above mainly for tanking purposes because obviously you guys are changing things in line with this ethos of “balance” then surely this needs addressing?

Well, on the other hand Templars are the only class with three class synergies, group-wide purge and probably the strongest execute.

Jabbs_Giggity

phantasmalD wrote: »

iaminc wrote: »

Can you rework at least one Templar skill to give some kind off cc.

Necro has one ,
Warden has gripping shards
DK has Talons
Nightblade will have Mass hysteria
Sorcs have rune cage and restraining prison

Templar’s are the only class without something along the lines of the above mainly for tanking purposes because obviously you guys are changing things in line with this ethos of “balance” then surely this needs addressing?

Well, on the other hand Templars are the only class with three class synergies, group-wide purge and probably the strongest execute.

Agree to everything but execute. I have myself succumbed to the dull effects of J-Beaming an enemy WELL below 10% health and sadly had to watch them heal or block right through it...meanwhile taking punishment during the channel...I disagree with the execute being the strongest. IMO sorc's execute is by far the most effective and definitely the strongest execute in the game.
Just for comparison, in PVP how many times to you see Mage's fury or Reverse Slice in your Recap over J-Beam??

hunter937

I’ll start with this I am so excited for SOME of the changes to stamplar in the upcoming class/skill changes in Elsweyr. Gap closers, root cool down, cleansing/purifying ritual, such GREAT and needed changes.. BUT we as a stamina class do not have a large damage mitigation tool kit. Magplar has total dark, dk wings, warden shimmering, sorc ball of lightning. Stamplar doesn’t have an affordable skill to mitigate upfront burst. EXCEPT the major protection we received from empowering sweep. This skill was beautiful because it could be used defensively in a pinch, turn a fight in one’s advantage, or add the needed burst to down an opponent. Also please make toppling a stam/magic skill and do phys/magic damage based on whichever pool is higher? We don’t have access to a class gap closer! Please make this right for the small stamplar community we have. Let stamplar finally have its day and live among the ranks of stamden, stam DK, and stamblade!
Much love

hunter937

wheem_ESO wrote: »

hunter937 wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

After seeing the templar changes and indirect changes, here's my updated feedback based on Gina's requested questions.

Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?:
- No, but the lack of changes modernizing some of the outdated templar skills are against the spirit of the class. Or to put it better, the class feels like a lack of an identity and most players feel like the devs are pushing them towards heavy armor healbot roles where they hold block and cast BOL till they die. Not much group debuff/buff, clunky burst/pressure and no AOE cc mechanic lends to templars feeling they cannot operate any role they want without severe downsides compared to other classes.

Are you able to weave abilities better or worse in this Update?
- Yes and No. Cast time changes to GCD result in weird clunky loss in speed. For example, punchering sweeps is faster if I dont light attack afterwards and is slightly slower when I do. Same for things like Dark Flare, wreckling blow, etc.

Do you feel your class is stronger, weaker, or relatively the same with the standardization pass on class abilities?
- weaker. While many audits resulted in finally modernizing the templar kit (toppling being faster, etc) other classes received audits that surpass the balance feedback we gave prior to the new chapter. This results in a weaker class once you compare the buffs DK, Sorcs, and nightblades received as well as the kit from the necromancer.

Do you feel we addressed abilities that in the past year have been over or under performing?
- Yes and no. Some abilities are still underperforming or are clunky/outdated. For example practice incantation only recevie minor adjustment despite ultimate not having been touched since 2015 with rememberance being the superior morph. But you adjusted restoring aura while also looking into the speed/cc function of toppling. 50/50

Do you have any other general feedback?
- Templar still has no clear identity and stamplar has taken heavy nerfs while giving their identity away to stamDK.

Previous Feedback (updates in bold/strikethrough):

Templar
Aedric Spear

Burning Light: great change, needs extensive cyro testing on live however for efficiency tests. Jabs snare is still dodge able though.

Focused Charge: minimum range doesn't match other gap closers, at least ones that grant a secondary effect like lotus fan.fixed
Explosive Charge (morph): no one is using this spell for the AOE dmg. It doesnt break targets out of stealth, requires a target, is too slow, and makes your vulnerable. Niche application as a bomber build but Templar has nothing that helps to escape those situations like a nightblade can.
Toppling Charge (morph): has potential to be a great change. but has same downsides as explosive charge; most serious PVP players deslot this ability since it opens you up to being cc'd and burst. If DMG buff is to be a buff for Templar, then consistency of use must be created.faster and now has no minimum range. fixed

Piercing Javelin: dmg boost buff was weird at range, because templars lack the absolute ranged strength of sorcs to fully use this DMG boost to it's full potential. Skill audit would have shown that one of the magplar pain points is too many cc options that have too many niche applications and all contradict each other. Why run javelin when I can heal+unreflected+unblocked dMG with total dark? But I can't use total dark on cc immune targets and toppling charge becomes generic gap closer when I cast total dark first.

Puncturing Strikes: best change this patch but there's a bug as cinbri noted regarding it's efficiency on pts.

Radial Sweep: great change for range. Still misses targets due to how the hitbox is looking for those targets.
Empowering Sweep (morph): this is hard to swallow because it violates the core reasoning of this patch while increasing the main pain point of stamplar; low survivability after post-nerf of major mending under wrobel. its an AOE 2s pulse that has empower; solar barrage shares this same exact mechanic and thus is instantly redundant. It may be an ultimate, and some pve stamplars love it, but in PvP it takes away from survival for that class.

Spear Shards: good buffs for pve templar but stamplar can't use it. So it's one sided change.

Sun Shield:
.great change for seeing skills and values they bring, because it was tricking both players and devs into thinking this is a great defensive skill. But if blazing was above other options, you'd see it on every templar build and in competitive PvP applications. It doesn't defend well and it doesnt damage well; because of that it will always be replaced by something more damaging or defensive. Radiant ward is perfect for PVE tanks however but the cost increase is a nerf to them sadly. Is 9% per hit good enough for competitive pve? This ability will still find extremely niche use in PvP and it doesn't solve pve tank pain points. dmg off radiant ward is very promising, but it's 10k crits on PVE mobs which means it will only be 2k dmg after all mitigation. blazing shield is still useless

Dawn’s Wrath
Eclipse: great mechanic balance for DKs now. Tooltip Great for knowledge too in understanding how it works,but has core issue of its design rests on this cooldown. damage was originally by wrobel increased to account for this 0.75s cooldown. and to boot, healing was never increase to account for this as well. core ability still suffers in that you are giving targets cc immunity without stopping their actions and the niche applications. Other cc abilities are rendered useless if trying to make most of this spell. Hard to use with new toppling charge since you'll waste two slots for a cc immunity granting spell.

Power of the Light: pve change, while decent, only buffs pve templar healers who did not need buffs on core DPS centered abilities. Dmg loss impacts PVE stamplar and PVP stamplar looking to stretch their dmg to counter the fact their have no defense.

Solar Flare: great change on both speed and cast times. but is 37% dmg reduction worth 0.1 seconds and slightly faster shot? Snipe, receiving similar change, has only a 27% reduction on damage. In comparison, Jabs while received evasion nerfs but got buffs to compensate as well; dark flare should be buffed now that wings is 50% dmg reduction for similar reasons. With reflective light/vamp bane losing ability to be used as a spamable for both instant cast+dot for greater Dmg, dark flare feels more like a redundant ability that functions similarly to vamp bane but only useful on gank builds/zerglings and will never see application in pve. Solar barrage is great change however to help fix it mechanically.

Sun Fire: great change for server calcs, but if dark flare isnt buffed, magplar loses partially efficiency in one aspect of it's (community applied) core identity of "i can do AOE, Melee and range all in one package". Plus ability has issues granting crit buff due to requiring hits instead of cast so it's not functioning according to similar buff spells and thus missed it's chance by the team on their audits.

Restoring Light
Breath of Life: great adjustment for pvp balance. Shame other similar heals in the game don't follow this requirement of positioning and LOS walls (Sorc pet heal for example).

Cleansing Ritual: great change but weird issue with Ritual of retribution. dmg of this spell buffed with highest stat either weapon/stam but is still magic damage so CP scaling will be annoying. Extended ritual is fine as is, though stamplars aren't sitting around for this heal in highly mobile combat.

Practiced Incantation: heal percentage fix didn't really make morph attractive versus rememberance. For a defensive ult, it hasn't been updated according for the highly mobile game design intent, and both morphs haven't really been touched since 2015-2016. Another missed chance to audit to update Templar proactive defense pain point.

Restoring Aura: great change in adding zero cost while increasing duration to match ele drain. Will open up weapon optiosn slightly though major breach is too important to give up and the light attacks off destro staff punish templars looking to experiment with DW/SNB for more paladin looking characters. Possible suggestion is to add major sorcery, while not breach, will help alleviate bar space issues.

All in all, Templar will be bottom barrel compared to mag Sorc buffs, mag dk buffs, stamDK stealing stamplar identity of dot pressure/major mending identity, and necromancer. All other classes can accomplish what they need in less than it takes to setup Templar burst. conclusion still current, but recent changes have helped.

Not sure if you're speaking of stamplar or magplar, but as a magplar player, this patch basically adjusted most of the major painpoints I had with magplar.

1) Toppling charge - The minimum distance on this ability meant that you can not use it as a reliable CC. With no minimum distance, there is no requirement to slot javelin to reliably CC someone. Really hyped for this change.

2) RAT - Being forced to play as vampire was a major painpoint for me as a magplar. But RAT solves two problems with 1. Snare immunity + major expedition, this ability will be a game changer for magplars and even stamplars for specific builds.

3) Empowering/crescent sweep - The range increase from 6m to 8m is a very welcome change. The range was the one reason why I always ended up not using this ultimate. 6m was way too little, especially considering that many melee abilties are more than 6m so you would often miss it even if you use it in melee range. With 8m, it should be much more reliable when you use it in melee range.

4) Radiant aura - Making it free cost will make this ability really good in PVP. The ability already has nice passives, and now it also has a nice active effect. In PVP, this ability will be the more popular means of applying magickasteal since, you can apply it on everyone in 1 GCD. Many naysayers are saying elemental drain will be better, but I can guarantee in BGs, this will be the more popular morph.

5) Puncturing sweep - Channel time reduction is always welcome without damage reduction. Not a major change but still welcome.

6) Repentance - With necromancers coming out, this ability got meta-buffed, since you will have a **** ton of corpses providing free stam and health. This ability might even be worthwhile for magplars who make good use of their stam.


From a PVP perspective, this patch has really addressed many painpoints for magplars. I'm looking forward to playing my magplar after this patch.

You might be wrong on the sixth point. Iirc, templar's repentance and necro's corpses won't interact in any way

they should

No, they shouldn't. A Necromancer utilizing only the Intensive Mender can generate a corpse as quickly as every 4 seconds (plus 2 more every 8-9 seconds if using the Bone Armor and Skeletal Arcanist/Archer abilities) - that's way too much "free" Stam/HP for a Templar, and if he/she has multiple Necromancers on their team, it'd get really ridiculous.

I see your point. Maybe they get a lower percentage of resources back from Necro corpses. I think it would be very interesting and would make sense since the corpses have already died in the past and are being brought back to life to fight.

Colecovision

5.0.2 solo pve stamblade is very fun. Just need to mentally get past being a bit weaker overall. vMA is harder with pts gear than my basic gear on live. But, I did the whole thing with 5 nb skills on the front bar and 2 on the back. So I took skills off the bar a competitive player wouldn't. That might have added to the difficulty.

Free reapers. I thought it would be useless but then I front barred it. Kill to heal, over and over again. So awesome. It is less damage, but it's also more fun.

Relentless was more helpful soloing vet FG1 than it was in vMA. I couldn't get the heal in vMA when I needed it and went with reapers. So relentless got benched. In vFG1 I back bared relentless for the final boss and just left it with 5 stacks. Did the same on a world boss. The problem is that you can't retreat and get the heal. If I need a heal, I typically dodgeroll away. I'm sure if I get better with the mini game, I can make more use of it. If it wouldn't be op for magblades in pvp, I don't see why that 7m limitation is needed. Could it at lease be 10? Between ambush being this fun and useful, power extraction being mele, killer blade being a heal, the majors being 6-9 seconds after SA and free reapers, there's enough to encourage aggressive play.

Anyway, that's my middle class pve viewpoint.

Silver_Strider

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

The damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense. According to the character creation screen, nightblades are described as "relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and now, with the addition of damage mitigation on grim focus, NB also receive more sources of mitigation in their toolkit than any other class:
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-major evasion from blur
-minor maim from summon shade
-15% damage reduction from grim focus

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea? Are NB no longer intended to "rely variously on stealth and speed" to survive, as their class description suggests?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Workable alternatives to the damage reduction stacks on Grim Focus:

1. Major brutality/sorcery. I understand you do not want anything on Grim Focus that will further improve NB damage levels, but putting brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus (and removing it from drain power) will not increase the overall power of the class because it is a buff they already have access to.
2. Stacks of 2% movement speed, for a total of 10%. If you insist on going with the defensive route, please consider movement speed as an alternative to damage mitigation. This would at least stay more true to the class identity.

Updated to include possible alternatives. Please give some amount of serious consideration to them. But the important thing is the removal of the damage reduction.

15% damage reduction more than makes up for the resistance difference between wearing a full 7 pieces of light armor vs wearing a full 7 pieces of heavy armor.

15% damage reduction is the rough equivalent of 9,915 resistances, which is almost double the value of major ward/resolve. And NB now get this in addition to the major ward/resolve that they get passively from using their spammable attack.

15% damage reduction is huge, and has no place in an NB's toolkit. It is contradictory to the class's identity. Replacing this with brutality/sorcery or movement speed would at the very least stay true to the NB class's identity, and also dial the skill back a bit to bring it more in line.

By this logic, we should just say screw every spec that is not DK Tanks, Templar healers, Pet Sorc and Stamblade since F all to diversity, right? Well, as someone that actually likes class diversity, I'm going to say no on your definition of class identity because it's narrow minded and constraining. NB is not just a Rouge/Assassin class. It's also a Blood Mage, at one point it was a Leech Tank and an Evasion Tank and now it's becoming a bit of a Death knight, getting stronger as it fights on. Why are you constricting what a NB is, when the classes themselves have multiple specs they can do?

Templar isn't just a Cleric. It can also be a Light Wielding Paladin.
DK isn't just a Warrior. It's can also be a Pyromancer.
Warden isn't just a Beast Tamer. It's also a Fortress of Ice.

Saying that NB is somehow losing its Rouge identity by further refining its other identities is ludicrous because it really didn't lose anything that hurt that identity at all. If anything, I think it got further reinforced considering that Teleport Strike w/ Minor Vulnerability is much better than Minor Berserk in terms of damage output, especially since you can get Minor Berserk a lot easier than you can Minor Vuln on a Stambuild. Your exaggeration and inability to see more than a rouge/assassin is little more than narrow mindedness since it's not losing that identity at all, it's just getting more well rounded overall, and while it does have some pain points in other areas, it's really not this massive affront to God that you seem to be determined to make it out to be.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so painfully obvious that you truly feel this way, which just leaves me cringing instead.

I completely agree with build diversity. I actually main an NB PvE tank (as off meta as that currently is).

And even after the dark cloak nerf, I can tell you that the 15% damage mitigation is not needed. NB tanks already had no problem surviving, so this absurdly strong buff is entirely unwarranted in PvE.

In PvP, this will have the greatest impact, and this is where the issues arise.

Heavy armor NB builds are already incredibly strong, inherent in the high damage potential of the class. This allows them to build more around defense, without giving up as much offense any other class would. Heavy sword and shield NBs are already oftentimes the victors of dueling tournaments, and giving them another 15% mitigation is a bad idea.

No, I'm not saying that NB stealth or gank builds need help to catch up to this brawler playstyle, they too are already very strong. I'm just saying NB brawlers don't need any help either, and definitely not in the form of a buff as strong as an unnamed 15% damage mitigation.

What I'm trying (and possibly failing) to say is that NB are already effective rogues and effective brawlers. The brawler playstyle doesn't need any more encouragement because it is already there and successful. Promoting it further just seems unnecessary and against the original spirit of the class.

The thing is though that the Brawler playstyle did take very noticeable hits as well. Between Fear losing Minor Maim, Dark Cloak not healing as much as before, Surprise Attack no longer providing Major Fracture, No more Minor Berserk/Endurance and Incap no longer providing Major Defile, NB Brawler lost a lot of passive mitigation as well as some of its oppressive offensive capabilities meaning the amount of hoops you have to jump thru to be an effective brawler on a NB has gone up, not made easier. While it is technically possible to maintain Minor Maim via Shade, especially now that it scales with either spec, Teleport shade is still buggy and only affects 1 target whereas the other Shade is unreliable in its AoE Maim. Then, we now also need to find space to run Mark Target and Teleport Strike, else we lose out on 5k Penetration as well as Minor Vulnerability to make up for the Minor Berserk removal from Grim Focus, which we will have to slot if we plan to have that Mitigation buff at all.

The playstyle didn't get more encouragement. I'd argue that the playstyle was divided more broadly within the NB class to make the playstyle something that requires a much greater investment in order to pull off effectively. I now have to choose a source of Major Fracture in either Mark or Puncture. Of I go Puncture, do I drop Surprise attack and rely on Shade/Cloak/Fear for Major Resistance uptime? Where can I fit Phantasmal Whatchamacallit on my bar? How about Ambush? I no longer have Defile on Incap so do I drop Incap for Dawnbreaker and try to work with Reverb? There's a lot to think about in trying to make the NB Brawler work now that wasn't even in contention before but is now more or less required to remain effective.

Personally, I look forward to NB Brawlers being more commonplace. Maybe then people won't constantly complain about sneaky little gankers as much.

Demra

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

The damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense. According to the character creation screen, nightblades are described as "relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and now, with the addition of damage mitigation on grim focus, NB also receive more sources of mitigation in their toolkit than any other class:
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-major evasion from blur
-minor maim from summon shade
-15% damage reduction from grim focus

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea? Are NB no longer intended to "rely variously on stealth and speed" to survive, as their class description suggests?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Workable alternatives to the damage reduction stacks on Grim Focus:

1. Major brutality/sorcery. I understand you do not want anything on Grim Focus that will further improve NB damage levels, but putting brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus (and removing it from drain power) will not increase the overall power of the class because it is a buff they already have access to.
2. Stacks of 2% movement speed, for a total of 10%. If you insist on going with the defensive route, please consider movement speed as an alternative to damage mitigation. This would at least stay more true to the class identity.

Updated to include possible alternatives. Please give some amount of serious consideration to them. But the important thing is the removal of the damage reduction.

15% damage reduction more than makes up for the resistance difference between wearing a full 7 pieces of light armor vs wearing a full 7 pieces of heavy armor.

15% damage reduction is the rough equivalent of 9,915 resistances, which is almost double the value of major ward/resolve. And NB now get this in addition to the major ward/resolve that they get passively from using their spammable attack.

15% damage reduction is huge, and has no place in an NB's toolkit. It is contradictory to the class's identity. Replacing this with brutality/sorcery or movement speed would at the very least stay true to the NB class's identity, and also dial the skill back a bit to bring it more in line.

By this logic, we should just say screw every spec that is not DK Tanks, Templar healers, Pet Sorc and Stamblade since F all to diversity, right? Well, as someone that actually likes class diversity, I'm going to say no on your definition of class identity because it's narrow minded and constraining. NB is not just a Rouge/Assassin class. It's also a Blood Mage, at one point it was a Leech Tank and an Evasion Tank and now it's becoming a bit of a Death knight, getting stronger as it fights on. Why are you constricting what a NB is, when the classes themselves have multiple specs they can do?

Templar isn't just a Cleric. It can also be a Light Wielding Paladin.
DK isn't just a Warrior. It's can also be a Pyromancer.
Warden isn't just a Beast Tamer. It's also a Fortress of Ice.

Saying that NB is somehow losing its Rouge identity by further refining its other identities is ludicrous because it really didn't lose anything that hurt that identity at all. If anything, I think it got further reinforced considering that Teleport Strike w/ Minor Vulnerability is much better than Minor Berserk in terms of damage output, especially since you can get Minor Berserk a lot easier than you can Minor Vuln on a Stambuild. Your exaggeration and inability to see more than a rouge/assassin is little more than narrow mindedness since it's not losing that identity at all, it's just getting more well rounded overall, and while it does have some pain points in other areas, it's really not this massive affront to God that you seem to be determined to make it out to be.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so painfully obvious that you truly feel this way, which just leaves me cringing instead.

I completely agree with build diversity. I actually main an NB PvE tank (as off meta as that currently is).

And even after the dark cloak nerf, I can tell you that the 15% damage mitigation is not needed. NB tanks already had no problem surviving, so this absurdly strong buff is entirely unwarranted in PvE.

In PvP, this will have the greatest impact, and this is where the issues arise.

Heavy armor NB builds are already incredibly strong, inherent in the high damage potential of the class. This allows them to build more around defense, without giving up as much offense any other class would. Heavy sword and shield NBs are already oftentimes the victors of dueling tournaments, and giving them another 15% mitigation is a bad idea.

No, I'm not saying that NB stealth or gank builds need help to catch up to this brawler playstyle, they too are already very strong. I'm just saying NB brawlers don't need any help either, and definitely not in the form of a buff as strong as an unnamed 15% damage mitigation.

What I'm trying (and possibly failing) to say is that NB are already effective rogues and effective brawlers. The brawler playstyle doesn't need any more encouragement because it is already there and successful. Promoting it further just seems unnecessary and against the original spirit of the class.

The thing is though that the Brawler playstyle did take very noticeable hits as well. Between Fear losing Minor Maim, Dark Cloak not healing as much as before, Surprise Attack no longer providing Major Fracture, No more Minor Berserk/Endurance and Incap no longer providing Major Defile, NB Brawler lost a lot of passive mitigation as well as some of its oppressive offensive capabilities meaning the amount of hoops you have to jump thru to be an effective brawler on a NB has gone up, not made easier. While it is technically possible to maintain Minor Maim via Shade, especially now that it scales with either spec, Teleport shade is still buggy and only affects 1 target whereas the other Shade is unreliable in its AoE Maim. Then, we now also need to find space to run Mark Target and Teleport Strike, else we lose out on 5k Penetration as well as Minor Vulnerability to make up for the Minor Berserk removal from Grim Focus, which we will have to slot if we plan to have that Mitigation buff at all.

The playstyle didn't get more encouragement. I'd argue that the playstyle was divided more broadly within the NB class to make the playstyle something that requires a much greater investment in order to pull off effectively. I now have to choose a source of Major Fracture in either Mark or Puncture. Of I go Puncture, do I drop Surprise attack and rely on Shade/Cloak/Fear for Major Resistance uptime? Where can I fit Phantasmal Whatchamacallit on my bar? How about Ambush? I no longer have Defile on Incap so do I drop Incap for Dawnbreaker and try to work with Reverb? There's a lot to think about in trying to make the NB Brawler work now that wasn't even in contention before but is now more or less required to remain effective.

Personally, I look forward to NB Brawlers being more commonplace. Maybe then people won't constantly complain about sneaky little gankers as much.

What you just described is what i thought was the default process of building a brawler using any class. Are you saying that up until now you had all those debuffs and offensive tools in one build and now you have to make sucrifices?

MakoFore

make stam sorc not the worst pvp class. tnx.

Silver_Strider

Demra wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

The damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense. According to the character creation screen, nightblades are described as "relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and now, with the addition of damage mitigation on grim focus, NB also receive more sources of mitigation in their toolkit than any other class:
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-major evasion from blur
-minor maim from summon shade
-15% damage reduction from grim focus

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea? Are NB no longer intended to "rely variously on stealth and speed" to survive, as their class description suggests?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Workable alternatives to the damage reduction stacks on Grim Focus:

1. Major brutality/sorcery. I understand you do not want anything on Grim Focus that will further improve NB damage levels, but putting brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus (and removing it from drain power) will not increase the overall power of the class because it is a buff they already have access to.
2. Stacks of 2% movement speed, for a total of 10%. If you insist on going with the defensive route, please consider movement speed as an alternative to damage mitigation. This would at least stay more true to the class identity.

Updated to include possible alternatives. Please give some amount of serious consideration to them. But the important thing is the removal of the damage reduction.

15% damage reduction more than makes up for the resistance difference between wearing a full 7 pieces of light armor vs wearing a full 7 pieces of heavy armor.

15% damage reduction is the rough equivalent of 9,915 resistances, which is almost double the value of major ward/resolve. And NB now get this in addition to the major ward/resolve that they get passively from using their spammable attack.

15% damage reduction is huge, and has no place in an NB's toolkit. It is contradictory to the class's identity. Replacing this with brutality/sorcery or movement speed would at the very least stay true to the NB class's identity, and also dial the skill back a bit to bring it more in line.

By this logic, we should just say screw every spec that is not DK Tanks, Templar healers, Pet Sorc and Stamblade since F all to diversity, right? Well, as someone that actually likes class diversity, I'm going to say no on your definition of class identity because it's narrow minded and constraining. NB is not just a Rouge/Assassin class. It's also a Blood Mage, at one point it was a Leech Tank and an Evasion Tank and now it's becoming a bit of a Death knight, getting stronger as it fights on. Why are you constricting what a NB is, when the classes themselves have multiple specs they can do?

Templar isn't just a Cleric. It can also be a Light Wielding Paladin.
DK isn't just a Warrior. It's can also be a Pyromancer.
Warden isn't just a Beast Tamer. It's also a Fortress of Ice.

Saying that NB is somehow losing its Rouge identity by further refining its other identities is ludicrous because it really didn't lose anything that hurt that identity at all. If anything, I think it got further reinforced considering that Teleport Strike w/ Minor Vulnerability is much better than Minor Berserk in terms of damage output, especially since you can get Minor Berserk a lot easier than you can Minor Vuln on a Stambuild. Your exaggeration and inability to see more than a rouge/assassin is little more than narrow mindedness since it's not losing that identity at all, it's just getting more well rounded overall, and while it does have some pain points in other areas, it's really not this massive affront to God that you seem to be determined to make it out to be.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so painfully obvious that you truly feel this way, which just leaves me cringing instead.

I completely agree with build diversity. I actually main an NB PvE tank (as off meta as that currently is).

And even after the dark cloak nerf, I can tell you that the 15% damage mitigation is not needed. NB tanks already had no problem surviving, so this absurdly strong buff is entirely unwarranted in PvE.

In PvP, this will have the greatest impact, and this is where the issues arise.

Heavy armor NB builds are already incredibly strong, inherent in the high damage potential of the class. This allows them to build more around defense, without giving up as much offense any other class would. Heavy sword and shield NBs are already oftentimes the victors of dueling tournaments, and giving them another 15% mitigation is a bad idea.

No, I'm not saying that NB stealth or gank builds need help to catch up to this brawler playstyle, they too are already very strong. I'm just saying NB brawlers don't need any help either, and definitely not in the form of a buff as strong as an unnamed 15% damage mitigation.

What I'm trying (and possibly failing) to say is that NB are already effective rogues and effective brawlers. The brawler playstyle doesn't need any more encouragement because it is already there and successful. Promoting it further just seems unnecessary and against the original spirit of the class.

The thing is though that the Brawler playstyle did take very noticeable hits as well. Between Fear losing Minor Maim, Dark Cloak not healing as much as before, Surprise Attack no longer providing Major Fracture, No more Minor Berserk/Endurance and Incap no longer providing Major Defile, NB Brawler lost a lot of passive mitigation as well as some of its oppressive offensive capabilities meaning the amount of hoops you have to jump thru to be an effective brawler on a NB has gone up, not made easier. While it is technically possible to maintain Minor Maim via Shade, especially now that it scales with either spec, Teleport shade is still buggy and only affects 1 target whereas the other Shade is unreliable in its AoE Maim. Then, we now also need to find space to run Mark Target and Teleport Strike, else we lose out on 5k Penetration as well as Minor Vulnerability to make up for the Minor Berserk removal from Grim Focus, which we will have to slot if we plan to have that Mitigation buff at all.

The playstyle didn't get more encouragement. I'd argue that the playstyle was divided more broadly within the NB class to make the playstyle something that requires a much greater investment in order to pull off effectively. I now have to choose a source of Major Fracture in either Mark or Puncture. Of I go Puncture, do I drop Surprise attack and rely on Shade/Cloak/Fear for Major Resistance uptime? Where can I fit Phantasmal Whatchamacallit on my bar? How about Ambush? I no longer have Defile on Incap so do I drop Incap for Dawnbreaker and try to work with Reverb? There's a lot to think about in trying to make the NB Brawler work now that wasn't even in contention before but is now more or less required to remain effective.

Personally, I look forward to NB Brawlers being more commonplace. Maybe then people won't constantly complain about sneaky little gankers as much.

What you just described is what i thought was the default process of building a brawler using any class. Are you saying that up until now you had all those debuffs and offensive tools in one build and now you have to make sucrifices?

No, I didn't have them all on 1 build but I am saying that I had several buffs/debuffs already built into my toolkit that I now have to supplement elsewhere. Things like Major Fracture were a non-issue since I got it from Surprise Attack, which doubled as my Major Resistance skill. Now, Surprise attack is just my Major Resistance skill and I need to substitute Major Fracture elsewhere. The change to Double Take into snare removal means I can switch Forward Momentum into Rally to try and make up the healing I'm losing from Dark Cloak. I'm debating whether or not I should bother with Mark Target at all since, even with no cost, its a free GCD I'm giving my opponent with 0 pressure attached to it and while Major Fracture is useful, I have an extremely hard time justifying it since its dead in its usefulness overall.

Yhoden

Fix shade please and also rework some of the old monster set pieces. Like change 1piece bonus of engine guardian to something useful and also the engine takes you out of stealth. Fix that too.

actosh

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Demra wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

The damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense. According to the character creation screen, nightblades are described as "relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and now, with the addition of damage mitigation on grim focus, NB also receive more sources of mitigation in their toolkit than any other class:
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-major evasion from blur
-minor maim from summon shade
-15% damage reduction from grim focus

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea? Are NB no longer intended to "rely variously on stealth and speed" to survive, as their class description suggests?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Workable alternatives to the damage reduction stacks on Grim Focus:

1. Major brutality/sorcery. I understand you do not want anything on Grim Focus that will further improve NB damage levels, but putting brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus (and removing it from drain power) will not increase the overall power of the class because it is a buff they already have access to.
2. Stacks of 2% movement speed, for a total of 10%. If you insist on going with the defensive route, please consider movement speed as an alternative to damage mitigation. This would at least stay more true to the class identity.

Updated to include possible alternatives. Please give some amount of serious consideration to them. But the important thing is the removal of the damage reduction.

15% damage reduction more than makes up for the resistance difference between wearing a full 7 pieces of light armor vs wearing a full 7 pieces of heavy armor.

15% damage reduction is the rough equivalent of 9,915 resistances, which is almost double the value of major ward/resolve. And NB now get this in addition to the major ward/resolve that they get passively from using their spammable attack.

15% damage reduction is huge, and has no place in an NB's toolkit. It is contradictory to the class's identity. Replacing this with brutality/sorcery or movement speed would at the very least stay true to the NB class's identity, and also dial the skill back a bit to bring it more in line.

By this logic, we should just say screw every spec that is not DK Tanks, Templar healers, Pet Sorc and Stamblade since F all to diversity, right? Well, as someone that actually likes class diversity, I'm going to say no on your definition of class identity because it's narrow minded and constraining. NB is not just a Rouge/Assassin class. It's also a Blood Mage, at one point it was a Leech Tank and an Evasion Tank and now it's becoming a bit of a Death knight, getting stronger as it fights on. Why are you constricting what a NB is, when the classes themselves have multiple specs they can do?

Templar isn't just a Cleric. It can also be a Light Wielding Paladin.
DK isn't just a Warrior. It's can also be a Pyromancer.
Warden isn't just a Beast Tamer. It's also a Fortress of Ice.

Saying that NB is somehow losing its Rouge identity by further refining its other identities is ludicrous because it really didn't lose anything that hurt that identity at all. If anything, I think it got further reinforced considering that Teleport Strike w/ Minor Vulnerability is much better than Minor Berserk in terms of damage output, especially since you can get Minor Berserk a lot easier than you can Minor Vuln on a Stambuild. Your exaggeration and inability to see more than a rouge/assassin is little more than narrow mindedness since it's not losing that identity at all, it's just getting more well rounded overall, and while it does have some pain points in other areas, it's really not this massive affront to God that you seem to be determined to make it out to be.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so painfully obvious that you truly feel this way, which just leaves me cringing instead.

I completely agree with build diversity. I actually main an NB PvE tank (as off meta as that currently is).

And even after the dark cloak nerf, I can tell you that the 15% damage mitigation is not needed. NB tanks already had no problem surviving, so this absurdly strong buff is entirely unwarranted in PvE.

In PvP, this will have the greatest impact, and this is where the issues arise.

Heavy armor NB builds are already incredibly strong, inherent in the high damage potential of the class. This allows them to build more around defense, without giving up as much offense any other class would. Heavy sword and shield NBs are already oftentimes the victors of dueling tournaments, and giving them another 15% mitigation is a bad idea.

No, I'm not saying that NB stealth or gank builds need help to catch up to this brawler playstyle, they too are already very strong. I'm just saying NB brawlers don't need any help either, and definitely not in the form of a buff as strong as an unnamed 15% damage mitigation.

What I'm trying (and possibly failing) to say is that NB are already effective rogues and effective brawlers. The brawler playstyle doesn't need any more encouragement because it is already there and successful. Promoting it further just seems unnecessary and against the original spirit of the class.

The thing is though that the Brawler playstyle did take very noticeable hits as well. Between Fear losing Minor Maim, Dark Cloak not healing as much as before, Surprise Attack no longer providing Major Fracture, No more Minor Berserk/Endurance and Incap no longer providing Major Defile, NB Brawler lost a lot of passive mitigation as well as some of its oppressive offensive capabilities meaning the amount of hoops you have to jump thru to be an effective brawler on a NB has gone up, not made easier. While it is technically possible to maintain Minor Maim via Shade, especially now that it scales with either spec, Teleport shade is still buggy and only affects 1 target whereas the other Shade is unreliable in its AoE Maim. Then, we now also need to find space to run Mark Target and Teleport Strike, else we lose out on 5k Penetration as well as Minor Vulnerability to make up for the Minor Berserk removal from Grim Focus, which we will have to slot if we plan to have that Mitigation buff at all.

The playstyle didn't get more encouragement. I'd argue that the playstyle was divided more broadly within the NB class to make the playstyle something that requires a much greater investment in order to pull off effectively. I now have to choose a source of Major Fracture in either Mark or Puncture. Of I go Puncture, do I drop Surprise attack and rely on Shade/Cloak/Fear for Major Resistance uptime? Where can I fit Phantasmal Whatchamacallit on my bar? How about Ambush? I no longer have Defile on Incap so do I drop Incap for Dawnbreaker and try to work with Reverb? There's a lot to think about in trying to make the NB Brawler work now that wasn't even in contention before but is now more or less required to remain effective.

Personally, I look forward to NB Brawlers being more commonplace. Maybe then people won't constantly complain about sneaky little gankers as much.

What you just described is what i thought was the default process of building a brawler using any class. Are you saying that up until now you had all those debuffs and offensive tools in one build and now you have to make sucrifices?

No, I didn't have them all on 1 build but I am saying that I had several buffs/debuffs already built into my toolkit that I now have to supplement elsewhere. Things like Major Fracture were a non-issue since I got it from Surprise Attack, which doubled as my Major Resistance skill. Now, Surprise attack is just my Major Resistance skill and I need to substitute Major Fracture elsewhere. The change to Double Take into snare removal means I can switch Forward Momentum into Rally to try and make up the healing I'm losing from Dark Cloak. I'm debating whether or not I should bother with Mark Target at all since, even with no cost, its a free GCD I'm giving my opponent with 0 pressure attached to it and while Major Fracture is useful, I have an extremely hard time justifying it since its dead in its usefulness overall.

Mark Target should have their heals gone and added something more usefull to compare it to elemental weapon.

The way it is right now i would only use it in pvp for cloaking blades, nothing else because theres simply no reason to do it.

MartiniDaniels

Initially changes looked good since they fixed a lot of hard counters in PVP. But now after some testing it all looks questionable:
1. DK reflection removed since wings were hard counter to magblade and snipers, ok. Nerf snipe stamblades and magblades to the oblivion, oh ok. But both changes nullify each other and any reason to play magblade or stamDK other then for fun/RP. So why introduce this changes at all?
2. Stamblades. They were somewhat OP and surprise attack nerf is justified. But now addition of free mark and mitigation to grim focus which is also longer.. at this point it's hard to say if they were nerfed at all.
3. Warden's and DK's snares. Snares were bad and irritating and should be toned down. But in practice they are obliterated by RAT and changes to immunity
4. Sorcs.. pets are fixed.. it's justified but minor buffs+RAT? Magsorcs were already at top, now they will be unstoppable.
5. Stamplars - some nerfs for unknown reason, magplars another buff to spears in PVE.. not pvp-related, but really no-brain, overloaded with functions spears needed another consecutive buff?
6. Molten whip.. definitely game-changer, as for now hard to say where this changes will lead..

Every class/build which could cause nuisance to already 2 most powerful classes is nerfed / changed to something completely unknown and those 2 classes are unscratched. I doubt PVP will be more popular/healthy as a result.
In such moments, I always happy that I didn't pre-order Elsweyr. There is no guarantee there will be viable builds for other classes then heavy stamblade and magsorc.. so if you are DK, magblade, magwarden or templar prepare to be sorc food for a while

actosh

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Initially changes looked good since they fixed a lot of hard counters in PVP. But now after some testing it all looks questionable:
1. DK reflection removed since wings were hard counter to magblade and snipers, ok. Nerf snipe stamblades and magblades to the oblivion, oh ok. But both changes nullify each other and any reason to play magblade or stamDK other then for fun/RP. So why introduce this changes at all?
2. Stamblades. They were somewhat OP and surprise attack nerf is justified. But now addition of free mark and mitigation to grim focus which is also longer.. at this point it's hard to say if they were nerfed at all.
3. Warden's and DK's snares. Snares were bad and irritating and should be toned down. But in practice they are obliterated by RAT and changes to immunity
4. Sorcs.. pets are fixed.. it's justified but minor buffs+RAT? Magsorcs were already at top, now they will be unstoppable.
5. Stamplars - some nerfs for unknown reason, magplars another buff to spears in PVE.. not pvp-related, but really no-brain, overloaded with functions spears needed another consecutive buff?
6. Molten whip.. definitely game-changer, as for now hard to say where this changes will lead..

Every class/build which could cause nuisance to already 2 most powerful classes is nerfed / changed to something completely unknown and those 2 classes are unscratched. I doubt PVP will be more popular/healthy as a result.
In such moments, I always happy that I didn't pre-order Elsweyr. There is no guarantee there will be viable builds for other classes then heavy stamblade and magsorc.. so if you are DK, magblade, magwarden or templar prepare to be sorc food for a while

Sadly have to agree.
It´s ZOS Game, but at the moment even with ppl like gilliam (wich i like actually) it looks like they have no overview of their game, nor a decent plan to keep things going, and what changes have an impact in the overall picture.

You introduce new ppl, change Combat lead couple times since eso started, and it did not get better to be honest.
I believe its a hard task to get it right, but you almost end up buffing stuff u want to "balance" and some strong specs are even not touched, and weaker ones are ignored as well.

hunter937

@ZOS_GinaBruno would you consider just making empowering sweep a little more expensive and keeping the major protection it would still not perform as well as warden’s sleet storm/permafrost and I’m not asking it to. Keep the range at 8 meters for letting it hit better, keep major protection, increase ult cost to 90-100. This is what stamplars want. Not empower. To me, the spirit of stamplar is an AOE berserker.. empower affects one target at a time, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. And if you aren’t keeping major protection could we at least give the targets in the area minor vulnerability and give us access to minor maim somewhere in our toolkit? Bc we still do lack damage mitigation. This set up would much better synergies with the ult and overall damage style of templar. Please hear my pleas, ZOS. Don’t let stamplar die.

hunter937

What if dark cloak purged a few negative effects since the heal got nerfed? Otherwise I couldn’t see a reason not to just drop it and run rally and vigor and get out of the fray using my shade. Feels like a dead skill for PvP as is.

Jabbs_Giggity

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for current class balance and the class ability audit in this update. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?
• Are you able to weave abilities better or worse in this Update?
• Do you feel your class is stronger, weaker, or relatively the same with the standardization pass on class abilities?
• Do you feel we addressed abilities that in the past year have been over or under performing?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please see below for possibilities to Templar for Class Balance.

Aedric Spear
1. Puncturing Strikes (and Morphs) should have channel time reduced to .80s (.20s per Strike) Change the 8x6m Cone area to Target instead of "Closest Enemy" and provide AOE spash damage to nearby enemies
2. Biting Jabs should drop Major Savagery and add Stun on final Strike. Major Savagery should be moved to Passive granted by activating Aedric Spear ability
3. Puncturing Sweep should have Snare moved from Last Strike to First Strike. Revert the healing done to be able to Crit again.
4. Focused Charge should have one Morph convert to Stamina.
5. Increase Passive Spear Wall from 1.5s/3s to 3s/6s (You have already taken away our Major Protection - Templars have worst defense in game)
6. Change Balanced Warrior to match its suggested theme; add Spell Damage and Physical Resistance.

Dawn's Wrath
1. Revert damage reduction to Dark Flare (Or at most reduce by 20%). Change cast time to .5s to account for arc travel. OR change skill to Stamina Barrage the inflicts Physical damage and Major Defile.
2. Fix Backlash (and Morphs) Plenty of feedback has been given about how this skill is mitigated and currently capped.
3. Eclipse - we're wasting breath trying to find a viable solution...

Restoring Light
1. Rite of Passage remove the root, or create an 8m barrier that prevents anything from entering within 8m (Players, NPC's, Ranged Skills).
2. Healing Ritual change a morph to a Stamina based HoT.
3. Please just give us back our Major Mending if all else above fails...

cpuScientist

wheem_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Can the blocking of Shalk AOE be undone. The class really hurts in 1v1 and this just makes them worst there and offers nothing in class that can damage a blocking tank. Cannot stun to drop block and no burst that goes through it. Every other class has at least one of these mechanics for dealing with blocking targets. There is counter play already against shall. Move left or right. It misses more than anything.

I see why they made the Shalks blockable - when multiple people are stacking them together they can be really overpowered. But when solo, Shalks are one of the worst offensive abilities in the game; if someone actually knows how to fight you, good luck getting them to land. Having the Shalks be blockable just makes that situation worse - even if you do manage to get them to land, a quick block will make the damage pretty negligible.

That's why I've hated the Shalks from pretty much Day-1 of Morrowind: They're far too often either overpowered, or borderline useless. I was hoping Magicka Necromancer would be a valid replacement for my Magicka Warden, but it's really looking more like a repeat of many of the same issues...Block the delayed, highly telegraphed burst if you can't avoid it via other means, and everything'll be hunky dory.

I understand it is either really powerful or useless. The problem I have though is this change doesn't fix either really. The people that shall run over are usually blindsided by the onslaught of an organized burst. And only die if the dawn hits them usually and if the dawn hit them they were not blocking.

But in solo this just makes it impossible to deal with tanks, no way to go through block at all. No burst or stun that can drop block. It's a highly telegraphed skill as is.

Revert this or give a stun that drops block. To at least help setup a burst that can go through block/dodge a nice freeze or something. Single Target to help them with blockers and to have a slight setup to their burst.

Silver_Strider

actosh wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Demra wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

The damage mitigation on Grim Focus directly contradicts NB class identity. NB are supposed to be the rogue/assassin class, relying on a heavy offense and limited by a weak defense. They are supposed to be opportunistic and carefully choose windows of opportunity to unleash strong burst on opponents and then fall back into the shadows to set up their next burst of offense. According to the character creation screen, nightblades are described as "relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

This change completely goes against that. It encourages NB to stay in the fight and take damage vs. periodically going on the defensive to set up their next big move. NB don't even have to waste a single GCD for their resistances either, because their source of major ward/resolve comes passively with their spammable attack (surprise attack/concealed weapon), free of charge. This already encourages NB to continually pressure enemies without going on the defensive. Now damage mitigation stacks on light attacks will further incentive this playstyle. NB skills are synergizing too well with the brawler playstyle, and now, with the addition of damage mitigation on grim focus, NB also receive more sources of mitigation in their toolkit than any other class:
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-major evasion from blur
-minor maim from summon shade
-15% damage reduction from grim focus

Where did the NB assassin identity go? Is this an abandoned idea? Are NB no longer intended to "rely variously on stealth and speed" to survive, as their class description suggests?

Other classes already excel at the brawler playstyle. I would really prefer it if NB weren't homogenized into this role, and instead changes were made to promote the rogue/assassin playstyle that the NB identity is so dependent on.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Workable alternatives to the damage reduction stacks on Grim Focus:

1. Major brutality/sorcery. I understand you do not want anything on Grim Focus that will further improve NB damage levels, but putting brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus (and removing it from drain power) will not increase the overall power of the class because it is a buff they already have access to.
2. Stacks of 2% movement speed, for a total of 10%. If you insist on going with the defensive route, please consider movement speed as an alternative to damage mitigation. This would at least stay more true to the class identity.

Updated to include possible alternatives. Please give some amount of serious consideration to them. But the important thing is the removal of the damage reduction.

15% damage reduction more than makes up for the resistance difference between wearing a full 7 pieces of light armor vs wearing a full 7 pieces of heavy armor.

15% damage reduction is the rough equivalent of 9,915 resistances, which is almost double the value of major ward/resolve. And NB now get this in addition to the major ward/resolve that they get passively from using their spammable attack.

15% damage reduction is huge, and has no place in an NB's toolkit. It is contradictory to the class's identity. Replacing this with brutality/sorcery or movement speed would at the very least stay true to the NB class's identity, and also dial the skill back a bit to bring it more in line.

By this logic, we should just say screw every spec that is not DK Tanks, Templar healers, Pet Sorc and Stamblade since F all to diversity, right? Well, as someone that actually likes class diversity, I'm going to say no on your definition of class identity because it's narrow minded and constraining. NB is not just a Rouge/Assassin class. It's also a Blood Mage, at one point it was a Leech Tank and an Evasion Tank and now it's becoming a bit of a Death knight, getting stronger as it fights on. Why are you constricting what a NB is, when the classes themselves have multiple specs they can do?

Templar isn't just a Cleric. It can also be a Light Wielding Paladin.
DK isn't just a Warrior. It's can also be a Pyromancer.
Warden isn't just a Beast Tamer. It's also a Fortress of Ice.

Saying that NB is somehow losing its Rouge identity by further refining its other identities is ludicrous because it really didn't lose anything that hurt that identity at all. If anything, I think it got further reinforced considering that Teleport Strike w/ Minor Vulnerability is much better than Minor Berserk in terms of damage output, especially since you can get Minor Berserk a lot easier than you can Minor Vuln on a Stambuild. Your exaggeration and inability to see more than a rouge/assassin is little more than narrow mindedness since it's not losing that identity at all, it's just getting more well rounded overall, and while it does have some pain points in other areas, it's really not this massive affront to God that you seem to be determined to make it out to be.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so painfully obvious that you truly feel this way, which just leaves me cringing instead.

I completely agree with build diversity. I actually main an NB PvE tank (as off meta as that currently is).

And even after the dark cloak nerf, I can tell you that the 15% damage mitigation is not needed. NB tanks already had no problem surviving, so this absurdly strong buff is entirely unwarranted in PvE.

In PvP, this will have the greatest impact, and this is where the issues arise.

Heavy armor NB builds are already incredibly strong, inherent in the high damage potential of the class. This allows them to build more around defense, without giving up as much offense any other class would. Heavy sword and shield NBs are already oftentimes the victors of dueling tournaments, and giving them another 15% mitigation is a bad idea.

No, I'm not saying that NB stealth or gank builds need help to catch up to this brawler playstyle, they too are already very strong. I'm just saying NB brawlers don't need any help either, and definitely not in the form of a buff as strong as an unnamed 15% damage mitigation.

What I'm trying (and possibly failing) to say is that NB are already effective rogues and effective brawlers. The brawler playstyle doesn't need any more encouragement because it is already there and successful. Promoting it further just seems unnecessary and against the original spirit of the class.

The thing is though that the Brawler playstyle did take very noticeable hits as well. Between Fear losing Minor Maim, Dark Cloak not healing as much as before, Surprise Attack no longer providing Major Fracture, No more Minor Berserk/Endurance and Incap no longer providing Major Defile, NB Brawler lost a lot of passive mitigation as well as some of its oppressive offensive capabilities meaning the amount of hoops you have to jump thru to be an effective brawler on a NB has gone up, not made easier. While it is technically possible to maintain Minor Maim via Shade, especially now that it scales with either spec, Teleport shade is still buggy and only affects 1 target whereas the other Shade is unreliable in its AoE Maim. Then, we now also need to find space to run Mark Target and Teleport Strike, else we lose out on 5k Penetration as well as Minor Vulnerability to make up for the Minor Berserk removal from Grim Focus, which we will have to slot if we plan to have that Mitigation buff at all.

The playstyle didn't get more encouragement. I'd argue that the playstyle was divided more broadly within the NB class to make the playstyle something that requires a much greater investment in order to pull off effectively. I now have to choose a source of Major Fracture in either Mark or Puncture. Of I go Puncture, do I drop Surprise attack and rely on Shade/Cloak/Fear for Major Resistance uptime? Where can I fit Phantasmal Whatchamacallit on my bar? How about Ambush? I no longer have Defile on Incap so do I drop Incap for Dawnbreaker and try to work with Reverb? There's a lot to think about in trying to make the NB Brawler work now that wasn't even in contention before but is now more or less required to remain effective.

Personally, I look forward to NB Brawlers being more commonplace. Maybe then people won't constantly complain about sneaky little gankers as much.

What you just described is what i thought was the default process of building a brawler using any class. Are you saying that up until now you had all those debuffs and offensive tools in one build and now you have to make sucrifices?

No, I didn't have them all on 1 build but I am saying that I had several buffs/debuffs already built into my toolkit that I now have to supplement elsewhere. Things like Major Fracture were a non-issue since I got it from Surprise Attack, which doubled as my Major Resistance skill. Now, Surprise attack is just my Major Resistance skill and I need to substitute Major Fracture elsewhere. The change to Double Take into snare removal means I can switch Forward Momentum into Rally to try and make up the healing I'm losing from Dark Cloak. I'm debating whether or not I should bother with Mark Target at all since, even with no cost, its a free GCD I'm giving my opponent with 0 pressure attached to it and while Major Fracture is useful, I have an extremely hard time justifying it since its dead in its usefulness overall.

Mark Target should have their heals gone and added something more usefull to compare it to elemental weapon.

The way it is right now i would only use it in pvp for cloaking blades, nothing else because theres simply no reason to do it.

I'd prefer if Mark Target gave Minor Lifesteal instead of the Heal on Kill. While it would give a much less substantial heal than the current burst it gives, the heal is just much too unreliable in its current form to be worth it vs Minor Lifesteal being a good bit of utility that helps everyone equally.

seventyfive

Regarding dragonknights:

The dragon fire scale morph is great. Those wings are still a good and highly useful ability after the changes made to them.

One could not say the same about Protective Plate unfortunately, and it's hard to justify its cost of 3510.

StamDKs unfortunately will not have access to the dragon fire scale due to the mag-only scaling.


A few simple solutions would be to:


* Make dragon fire scale with your highest offensive stats to let stamdks use it as well.

OR

* Slightly reduce the cost of the Protective plate morph (3510 -> 3000).

(NOTE: The Protective plate is already slightly cheaper (3510 vs 3780) due to the fact that its cost reduces as it ranks up but this is far from enough to make the morph competitive)

OR

* Make the immunity duration more attractive (2 -> 3/3.5/4 sec)


Regards,
seventyfive

Druid40

Change the nightblade's 'Surprise Attack' to disease damage. Let 'Refreshing Path' heal a little more.

Sheuib

Bunnies wrote: »

This is only from the perspective of a PVE player only, particularly our area's of expertise are Healers and Nightblades. We've playing these classes since the beginning of the game back in beta.

Templar Healer:

• Aedric Spears:
• Radial sweep: Good
• Puncturing Strikes: Recent changes made it feel better
• Piercing Javalin: Not really used for pve dps or healing. No utility outside stun
• Focused charge: should have a stamina morph,, I mean what healer or magicka dps wants to get close?
• Spears: Feels better, it is what makes us our class for healers
• Dawns Wrath:
• Nova: We love nova, but it is overshadowed by barrier right now,, wish reduction was longer with weaker damage
• Sun Fire: As a healer we don't use this no utility
• Solar Flare: As a healer we don't use this no utility
• backlash: we love the healing morph, feels good. Often overshadowed by other HoT's
• Eclipse: Often overshadowed by other skills has niche use for healers.
• Radiant Destruction: Used by healers to contribute, we love the place of this skill
• Restoring Light:
• Rite of passage: Niche use overshadowed by barrier, too short
• Rushed Ceremony: Both morphs are very strong we love this skills place. This is what identifies templar also.
• Healing ritual: Eh its ok? it needs to stack to be viable like healing springs
• Restoring Aura: We love Radiant aura, wish it was a tiny bit longer though
• Cleansing Ritual: What makes Templar healer itself, WE LOVE THIS ABILITY

As you stated your making comments from a PVE perspective and in a section you even label as Templar Healer you are making comments on an ability that is obviously a PVP ability. Focused charge is very much a PVP abliity and one of only two magicka gap closers in the game (not including streak). A magicka melee templar is very much a thing in PVP so don't go around suggesting switching one of them to a stam morph because there are plenty of stam gap closers in the game.

One morph provides the only reliable CC for templars. This really is the best for a magicka melee PVP build. It provides a stun and off balance. Now with no minimum range it is going to make being a magicka melee templar very competative against all the other melee builds.

The other morph provides a very good AOE damage which is the focus of a magicka templar melee build. Heck a creative person probably could make a good magicka melee PVE build that included the AOE morph if they wanted.

So if you're going to be a PVE person then stay away from PVP abilities. Thank you.

ilcavallo

actosh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Initially changes looked good since they fixed a lot of hard counters in PVP. But now after some testing it all looks questionable:
1. DK reflection removed since wings were hard counter to magblade and snipers, ok. Nerf snipe stamblades and magblades to the oblivion, oh ok. But both changes nullify each other and any reason to play magblade or stamDK other then for fun/RP. So why introduce this changes at all?
2. Stamblades. They were somewhat OP and surprise attack nerf is justified. But now addition of free mark and mitigation to grim focus which is also longer.. at this point it's hard to say if they were nerfed at all.
3. Warden's and DK's snares. Snares were bad and irritating and should be toned down. But in practice they are obliterated by RAT and changes to immunity
4. Sorcs.. pets are fixed.. it's justified but minor buffs+RAT? Magsorcs were already at top, now they will be unstoppable.
5. Stamplars - some nerfs for unknown reason, magplars another buff to spears in PVE.. not pvp-related, but really no-brain, overloaded with functions spears needed another consecutive buff?
6. Molten whip.. definitely game-changer, as for now hard to say where this changes will lead..

Every class/build which could cause nuisance to already 2 most powerful classes is nerfed / changed to something completely unknown and those 2 classes are unscratched. I doubt PVP will be more popular/healthy as a result.
In such moments, I always happy that I didn't pre-order Elsweyr. There is no guarantee there will be viable builds for other classes then heavy stamblade and magsorc.. so if you are DK, magblade, magwarden or templar prepare to be sorc food for a while

Sadly have to agree.
It´s ZOS Game, but at the moment even with ppl like gilliam (wich i like actually) it looks like they have no overview of their game, nor a decent plan to keep things going, and what changes have an impact in the overall picture.

You introduce new ppl, change Combat lead couple times since eso started, and it did not get better to be honest.
I believe its a hard task to get it right, but you almost end up buffing stuff u want to "balance" and some strong specs are even not touched, and weaker ones are ignored as well.

They clearly don't know what they're doing

thankyourat

Are we going to just ignore how strong magicka sorcerers are? They are currently the best class on live by far and it doesn't look like there are any plans to balance them