Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

max_only

Other.

Looks like consoles got their wish. A monkey’s paw type wish, but they got it.

Na0cho

No it's not P2W.

Some people it seems don’t really know what pay to win means.

This is clearly not.

Also @zos take my money please.

I was dreading making a Necro and going through all of this again.

Merlight

lordrichter wrote: »

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Merlight wrote: »

Whatever the price is, the level of accessibility will not be the same for everyone. Price has no bearing on whether something is pay to win or not.

Maybe, but at what price for what win does it no longer matter?

Brilliant question. If I knew the answer, I'd be holding the Holy Grail of videogame monetization.
(And sure as hell I'd bury it well.)

Universe

Yes it's P2W.

We will soon know how many forum members are active in a given day xD.
So far 426 voted.
Probably 500-600 per day and around 4K-5K per week

Facefister wrote: »

At this point, it doesn't matter whether it's P2W or not. There is a problem about leveling another character, in this case it's the need of farming a tremendous amount of Skyshards. Instead of adressing this problem with ingame elements, ZoS decided to slap a "package" on their store. A band aid which costs money.

Indeed.
I don't think it will be the last P2W feature to be implemented.
The skyshards will be a huge success for ZOS so they may try selling the skill points earned from completing public & group dungeons as "Public Dungeon Skill Points pack" and "Group Dungeon Skill Points pack".
There is no end to this type of monetization once they go down that road.
Some more info:
*"Completing group challenges in public dungeons (16 Skill Points, 22 including OrsiniumOrsinium (Crown Store), VvardenfellMorrowind and SummersetSummerset)
*Completing group dungeons (24 Skill Points, one for each completed dungeon storyline quest in the base game)."
Full overview of skill points:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Skills

Starlock

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

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Starlock wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Holy Donut Holes, Batman. Just add a bloody Class Change Token already and be done with it.

Lol! I think this is really the secret heart of things.

It appears most people aren't deciding their stance based off of the strict definition of what is P2W. Many are picking their stance off of wanting the convivence, then erroneously justifying their positions.


Many, many want those Class Change Tokens. They were told "no" by ZOS who does not wish to implement them.

Then those many hear about a possible future feature where they can simply and permanently unlock Skill Points for all of their alts. I'm sure more than a few instantly realized the potential in this... by buying enough of those, they'll never need those Class Change Tokens. They'll be able to buy enough skill points to be able to delete characters and create new ones on whim without the need to ever farm skill points again. While I'm sure many would love such a thing, and it is exactly the end point of where allowing the permanent purchase of Skill Points would end, I'm equally sure it would not be a good thing for the health of ESO.

Woah woah woah. You're making a huge assumption here.

I never said this was a good thing, and I never said it's something I wanted in the game, convenience or not. I won't use it (I am disabled and play this game to help distract me from pain... so, well, I don't want anything to be quick. I take my time). I just take issue with people throwing the phrase P2W on every cash shop situation.

Out of curiosity, why do you take issue with it? Recognizing something is pay-to-win does not mean you take any particular position regarding the ethics of such business practices. It does not equate to a condemnation or lack of approval. It often does, but it does not always. Clearly, many do not mind pay-to-win mechanics in games and have no ethical objections to it whatsoever.

Because I'm that pedantic ***.

In all honestly, I'm tired of the phrase getting watered down because it often does (and I might argue, should) have a very negative connotation. I am a sucker for clear concise communication.

Look, we're never going to agree that time = a gameplay advantage, especially when we're talking about hours spent (not months or years).

What we can agree on is that it's not a good thing for the health of the game overall.

Fair enough.

I see time as a distinct gameplay advantage because I look at things from the context of a person's entire life. With such a perspective, it is pretty clear to me that paying to advance in a game and bypass time investment is very clearly giving oneself an advantage.

I feel more strongly about this than I did even a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago I picked up another MMO that has far, far worse pay to win elements than ESO does. And far, far worse grind. Not paying diminshes enjoyment of the game far more than it would for one like ESO.

theyancey

Pay to win at its finest. It is, however, understandable. After running through the base game a dozen times I can see the need for something like this. At least they are being required to have discovered them once before. That being said when I roll a new necro he will start in the Wailing Prison and follow the original path all the way.

Wandering_Immigrant

No it's not P2W.

I can't rightly call it p2w as it's not something exclusive to the crown store or even the least bit difficult to achieve through in-game means. At first glance it does feel a little dirty and maybe like it dumbs down the game a bit, but imo the majority of people who utilize this will be from two types of players. Group A who are more casual, not long term mmo types, they just want to have their fun while they're here so they can move onto the next game, and part of that fun is trying out the different classes. Group B is the people in high end trial guilds who might find themselves needing to level an alt to fill a certain role for their group, usually with a time caveat of being ready within the next run or two and this just gives them one less thing they have to grind out to be caught up.

As far as group A goes, let them have their fun, who cares, it is just a game after all. And groups B, well these are often people who've already put massive amounts of time into the game so for them to be thrown a bone in the form of slightly less grind seems fair enough to me.

I'm just glad that it's crown store rather than simply being implemented as a game function since for me part of the fun in leveling an alt is progressing them through and sort of seeing the world through their eyes, growing an attachment to them in the process. Even something seemingly tedious like collecting skyshards can be nice, as it gives me an excuse to stop and look around every once in a while and see these characters I've created in different environments. I mean what's the point of perfecting your character's look and feel if the only time you ever plan to see them is in some dark dank dungeon where you're paying more attention to mechanics to than to your character, they might as well just be a binary at that point. But I understand the high end grind mindset, I've been there in other games, I can also relate to the have fun and move on crowd. I just happen to fall somewhere in the middle, and for me if this was a default feature it would water the experience down way too much, even as an option, it would just be too tempting I would eventually be short on time one day and just hit the button. Being in the crown store means other than the ads that'll inevitably pop up when I log in I'll barely even notice it's existence.

All that said, the rule of the slippery slope dictates that the next crown store short cut will be even more impactfull. First exp scrolls, then riding lessens, now skyshards.. Next what, my guess is skill lines like mage's guild and psijic order? Eventually people like me will feel like we're playing a different game than those who's character progression feels more similar to a browse through Amazon than it does an adventure through Tamriel, which I suppose will be the breaking point between p2w and pay for convenience, and my que to move on. But hopefully that's a long ways off still.

LordGavus

No it's not P2W.

Its pay 4 convenience.

By the time i level a character to 50 and have completed all the dungeons, i already have more than enough skill points (unless this character is going to do crafting).
So i wont be buying skyshard SP.

If there is a gold option i might use it when making a new crafting character.

I dont see it as pay 2 win because if level a charcter my way, and someone grinds and buys SP, when we hit 50 there will be no difference.

Jameliel

No it's not P2W.

If you already unlocked them, then no. What exactly do you "win"? A lot of people have many hours to spend in game. Those are usually the ones you see posting here 24/7. They will pay ZOS no matter what, so it doesnt matter what they think. It's an addiction for them, and unless they face it they will support their habit until they face reality.

Some of us work, help take care of others etc. We refuse to nonchalantly shell out cash to ZOS regardless of their behavior. I could care less about someone who hardly works, droning on telling me how to spend my time. If you dont want to apply skill points from skyshards to a new character, by all means continue spending your time grinding them out again.

Nefaras

No it's not P2W.

Its not really p2w and i hope they do it with the fu***** books from mage guild aswell. Come on noboy likes to run arround and pick up the books for that skill line.

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

FlyingSwan wrote: »

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Conduit0 wrote: »

God I wish the phrase "pay to win" would just go away, so many redacted throw the phrase out to describe anything they don't like that its lost all meaning.

Pay to win is when you can spend money to gain an advantage that can not be obtained through regular gameplay PERIOD. To describe anything else as pay to win is an intellectually dishonest attempt to label something you don't like as being inherently wrong.

You are certainly free to dislike the idea of being able to buy skyshards, but it is unequivocally not pay to win.

The problem is, there is no multilaterally agreed definition of the term, you've merely articulated one definition of the term. I could find equal numbers of documented definitions for either of the two leading arguments. People are free to choose definitions, and without any taxonomy, those definitions are equal.

This is an incredibly insightful perspective on it and is quite accurate. Google "define Pay-to-Win" and you'll see a whole spectrum of different ideas on what it means. Wikipedia most certainly has its faults, but given the utter lack of a better source for this topic, I'll personally consider it the definitive definition, at least until the word finally and officially enters the dictionary with a more universally accepted definition.

Looking at the full spectrum of definitions, we could create a grade of what constitutes pay-to-win. Something like the following:

Pay-to-Win in the strictest sense: A cash-shop purchase which provides any advantage.

Spoiler

Anything means exactly anything. This includes things which only provide a small advantage, those which can be obtained in-game, and those that merely save the player some time. Convenience items do fall into this category. This is the strictest, truest definition of Pay-to-Win which coincides with the definition for it on Wikipedia.

This definition is pretty much another way of saying if a purchase isn't something which is purely cosmetic (like mounts, pets, costumes, hats, and dyes), it is P2W.

Yes, this definition means that things like Riding Lessons and Research Scrolls are P2W. It hasn't been brought up yet in this thread, that I've seen, but it would also include the Crafting Bag for having an ESO+ subscription. And yes, in the strictest sense, all these things very much are P2W.

Pay-to-Win in a looser sense: A cash-shop purchase which provides a significant advantage.

Spoiler

This less strict definition requires the advantage given to be significant, so it does not include things which can be easily obtained for free in-game. This definition would not include convenience items as P2W as they are mostly innocuous and only give the slightest of advantage.

This looser definition of Pay-to-Win would seem to more closely coincide with how the majority of forum posters here view P2W.

While we're looking at different definitions of what constitutes Play-to-Win, here's a very interesting definition from Game-Wisdom.com:

When money provides an objectively better experience when playing, meaning that if the purchasable content creates a noticeable distinction between the haves and the have-nots.

“Better Experience” includes in game advantages, stronger in game gear or anything that makes the paying players stand above the free players.

I don't know about you but the moment I hear "better experience" the first thing that comes to mind for me is the Crafting Bag players get when they have an ESO+ sub. Even if you choose to disagree that one is P2W, it's certainly selling the solution for a manufactured problem.

CassandraGemini

Other.

Haven't read the whole thread, seeing how it became so extremely long so fast, but as a supporter of the whole "skyshards/lorebooks should be account wide" thing, my view on this is: Just no!

Seriously, to me this is nothing but a big ripoff! It would have been awesome if Zos had implemented something along the lines of "once you get Tamriel Skyshard Hunter on one character you can pay in-game gold to unlock the skyshards for your alts". Heck, I would have even been fine with Tel Var Stones or something as a currency, I would have gladly ventured into the Imperial City, even though I don't really pvp at all other than to get certain skills from the Assault skill line, to somehow get what is required to pay for this conveniece - with anything BUT real money! I have already paid money to get the game in and of itself and for my ESO+ subscription, and now I'm supposed to pay again for something that should definitely have been made available by some other means? And very likely an eye-watering amount for just one character (which, of course, I don't know yet, but I'm willing to bet the pricing is going to be awful). No, thanks, definitely not.

Really considering not to renew ESO+ when it runs out. This shameless money-grabbing is really weirding me out.

CompM4s

No it's not P2W.

Imo having already found the skyshard it should be account wide. There is already plenty if tedious grinding we have to do on a new character. Mages/psjic etc... atleast those are directly related to a questline, where skyshards are just randomly finding a rock.

Crixus8000

No it's not P2W.

If you already did it once then it's not pay to win. Some might like having to grind the same stuff over and over but not everyone does. I don't see it as an achievment or anything, it's just a nuisance I have to put up with just to actually play the game, and it stops me making new characters so i'm happy they are giving an option to skip it, although I would rather it just be free since I have already done the work once, but of course that wont happen.

Wandering_Immigrant

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

I don't know about you but the moment I hear "better experience" the first thing that comes to mind for me is the Crafting Bag players get when they have an ESO+ sub. Even if you choose to disagree that one is P2W, it's certainly selling the solution for a manufactured problem.

See, I don't consider the crafting bag or anything else that comes with ESO+ to be p2w, simply because I expect to have to pay monthly for any good MMO (good as in well maintained with frequent content updates and expansions). So to me the perks aren't the things that come with ESO+, but rather the perk is in the ability to even have the option play indefinitely at no charge if you so choose. I just see the free version as an extended trial play, and also a clever way for ZOS to give incentive for people who've stopped playing and unsubbed to return. Like the devil on your shoulder telling you "Just log in, you don't have to resub and start playing everyday again, just log in, see what's changed, it'll be fiiiine".

The only thing that comes with ESO+ I see as potentially p2w would be the free crowns, but that's only if you consider the things on the crown store to be p2w in the first place, which I don't, for the most part.

Morgul667

No it's not P2W.

Bot really you have it and knowing zos its going to be char bound and crazy expensive so not interestng in the end

Loves_guars

No it's not P2W.

Not pay to win but the unlock should be available through gold or other means too.

tohopka_eso

No it's not P2W.

as someone said earlier, this is not P2W. when i read the description you have to already have the shard collected so its more of a lazy way to get away on a alt is all. its like the by passing if you completed the soul quest.

Jsmalls

I would say the moment you were able to sell crown items for gold this game became p2w, but... Nothing in this game that can be bought for gold is hard to obtain... And gold gear (minus main hand) does not give any MAJOR advantage over purple. So I'm going to say yes this game is p2w, but... It gives you very a get minimal to no advantage.

Vietfox

No it's not P2W.

Finally we pvpers can skip that. Now we just need the same for lorebooks and the undaunted skill line.

SacredEarth

Other.

Making us pay for the work we have already done? *** ridiculous if you ask me. ZOS is straight-up greedy. Not sure how much longer I want to support this company and its buggy af game...

Spartabunny08

No it's not P2W.

It's buying time, there is no bought advantage other than time which is not p2w.

Mr_Walker

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Can you achieve it in game? Yes so it's not a p2w.

Wait for it, last time I pointed this out people decided they would changed the definition of both p2w and "winning". Most humorous!

heaven13

SacredEarth wrote: »

Making us pay for the work we have already done? *** ridiculous if you ask me. ZOS is straight-up greedy. Not sure how much longer I want to support this company and its buggy af game...

Correction: allowing us to pay if we want to skip doing the work on additional characters.

No one is making you. And the work isn't done on the alt, which is the whole point. So you can do it the normal way, or you can pay to speed up the process just like with mount training.

I'm pretty surprised that so many of you are shocked that this became a crown option. Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I saw it coming from a mile away and even said as much in a couple different threads on this very subject.

peacenote

Other.

Razor thin line exploiting the fact that account bound and character bound features are not consistent.

I am also very torn because I dislike this idea on principle but would rather ZOS make $$$ on the razor thin line than not make money and be unable to deliver new content. Also, as I've stated before, anything that keeps people from having to re-play content on alts impedes community growth.. as I level an alt I meet new people that I may not have met if my alt could skip content I played on my main. Sometimes do I feel like not doing it? Sure. Sometimes do I meet new, great players, even though? Yes, absolutely.

Skullstachio

Yes it's P2W.

I feel like it is a 50-50 thing here, true enough one could pay for SP if they had a toon with said achievements (rejoice PvE'ers who don't like cyrodiil) but in a way, I could see a lot wrong with this in the long run.

its basically PtM (Pay To keep up with the Meta) but at the same time, it could be a good thing for those who painstakingly went to the trouble of tracking all those wretched cyrodiilic skyshards (I should know, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to get the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter Achievement on my DK Main.)

Mr_Walker

I'm laughing at the people who are incredibly outraged because "OMG someone can get new skyshards quicker than me on a new toon so they will win the internet!".

Focus your build, run base game dungeons once, level to 50, and you have enough skill points to fill all the passives and skills you "need" for your build (plus you still need to level the skills anyway so the xp works on that). At most you need to clear 1-2 zones of skyshards. Pick only the "low hanging fruit" ie outdoor ones and you'll be done in an hour.

zaria

No it's not P2W.

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Can you achieve it in game? Yes so it's not a p2w.

So perfect cloudrest gear is ok in store?

SacredEarth

Other.

heaven13 wrote: »

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SacredEarth wrote: »

Making us pay for the work we have already done? *** ridiculous if you ask me. ZOS is straight-up greedy. Not sure how much longer I want to support this company and its buggy af game...

Correction: allowing us to pay if we want to skip doing the work on additional characters.

No one is making you. And the work isn't done on the alt, which is the whole point. So you can do it the normal way, or you can pay to speed up the process just like with mount training.

I'm pretty surprised that so many of you are shocked that this became a crown option. Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I saw it coming from a mile away and even said as much in a couple different threads on this very subject.

This was something that should have been added to the game a long time ago. Common talk in my circles. Putting a price tag on it is greedy.

SacredEarth

Other.

peacenote wrote: »

Razor thin line exploiting the fact that account bound and character bound features are not consistent.

I am also very torn because I dislike this idea on principle but would rather ZOS make $$$ on the razor thin line than not make money and be unable to deliver new content. Also, as I've stated before, anything that keeps people from having to re-play content on alts impedes community growth.. as I level an alt I meet new people that I may not have met if my alt could skip content I played on my main. Sometimes do I feel like not doing it? Sure. Sometimes do I meet new, great players, even though? Yes, absolutely.

Look at all the things ZOS makes money on... Blizzard delivered a more stable game with bug fixes and patches and new content all for one monthly fee. I pay that fee here and then some... and pay the cost of a new game every time they have a new expansion.. If they aren't making enough off of that and aaaalllll the other things in the crown store, then something is seriously wrong with the finances over there