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Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?
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Conduit0✭✭✭✭✭
✭No it's not P2W.God I wish the phrase "pay to win" would just go away, so many redacted throw the phrase out to describe anything they don't like that its lost all meaning.
Pay to win is when you can spend money to gain an advantage that can not be obtained through regular gameplay PERIOD. To describe anything else as pay to win is an intellectually dishonest attempt to label something you don't like as being inherently wrong.
You are certainly free to dislike the idea of being able to buy skyshards, but it is unequivocally not pay to win.6 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.God I wish the phrase "pay to win" would just go away, so many redacted throw the phrase out to describe anything they don't like that its lost all meaning.
Pay to win is when you can spend money to gain an advantage that can not be obtained through regular gameplay PERIOD. To describe anything else as pay to win is an intellectually dishonest attempt to label something you don't like as being inherently wrong.
You are certainly free to dislike the idea of being able to buy skyshards, but it is unequivocally not pay to win.
Yes, some people use the phrase as a snarl world. Not everyone does. Pay-to-win =/= bad or unethical. It simply means paying cash for an advantage in a game that bypasses usual time investments. If you disagree, please correct the "intellectually dishonest" Wikipedia entry on pay-to-win and all other sources of legitimate information that disagree with your opinion.
Thanks!1 -
ArenGesus✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.Facefister wrote: »
You've saved time and skipped content. You also skipped dangers and the possibility of getting killed if you take IC into account.
You keep ignoring the part where you have to actually acquire those skill points on one of your characters before being able to purchase them. You aren't skipping any dangers. Besides, the only ones that actually offer any kind of danger are the ones in Cyrodiil. My guess is that by comparison to other skill points, few people have all (or even any) of those, so very few people will be able to purchase them for alts.1 -
Merenwen_812✭✭✭Other.May I ask, how many skill points are there via skyshard (not including the new chapter)? I am still reading before I cast my vote but would like to know the number of SP that are out there right now.0
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FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.God I wish the phrase "pay to win" would just go away, so many redacted throw the phrase out to describe anything they don't like that its lost all meaning.
Pay to win is when you can spend money to gain an advantage that can not be obtained through regular gameplay PERIOD. To describe anything else as pay to win is an intellectually dishonest attempt to label something you don't like as being inherently wrong.
You are certainly free to dislike the idea of being able to buy skyshards, but it is unequivocally not pay to win.
The problem is, there is no multilaterally agreed definition of the term, you've merely articulated one definition of the term. I could find equal numbers of documented definitions for either of the two leading arguments. People are free to choose definitions, and without any taxonomy, those definitions are equal.1 -
ArenGesus✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.Facefister wrote: »Time most certainly is an advantage. It's even specifically listed as an advantage in the definition for P2W which you quoted back to me without internalizing. It's that part in bold which I repeated three times again immediately after the full definition.
I highly disagree - time is not a gameplay advantage at all. How long someone takes to acquire something has no bearing on how effective that thing is in gameplay.
Are we also going to completely ignore the fact that the gathering of the money itself takes time?
Why even bother trying vHoF for the skin then? Just pay crowns and get it.
Indeed, why bother obtaining it again on an alt after having gotten it on your main? Especially when you consider that the skin is account-wide and that you only have to obtain it exactly once. And this part is really going to blow your mind - you don't even have to PAY for it. It sounds like you're becoming a proponent of account-wide skyshards more the longer you argue against it. Now if we can just get together and convince ZOS that it's the PAYING part that's stupid, maybe we can make a difference.2 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No it's not P2W.No. And long overdue since running around to every corner of Tamriel for the 8th time is tedious af.3 -
haelene✭✭✭✭✭
✭No it's not P2W.MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »Holy Donut Holes, Batman. Just add a bloody Class Change Token already and be done with it.
Lol! I think this is really the secret heart of things.
It appears most people aren't deciding their stance based off of the strict definition of what is P2W. Many are picking their stance off of wanting the convivence, then erroneously justifying their positions.
Many, many want those Class Change Tokens. They were told "no" by ZOS who does not wish to implement them.
Then those many hear about a possible future feature where they can simply and permanently unlock Skill Points for all of their alts. I'm sure more than a few instantly realized the potential in this... by buying enough of those, they'll never need those Class Change Tokens. They'll be able to buy enough skill points to be able to delete characters and create new ones on whim without the need to ever farm skill points again. While I'm sure many would love such a thing, and it is exactly the end point of where allowing the permanent purchase of Skill Points would end, I'm equally sure it would not be a good thing for the health of ESO.
Woah woah woah. You're making a huge assumption here.
I never said this was a good thing, and I never said it's something I wanted in the game, convenience or not. I won't use it (I am disabled and play this game to help distract me from pain... so, well, I don't want anything to be quick. I take my time). I just take issue with people throwing the phrase P2W on every cash shop situation.
Out of curiosity, why do you take issue with it? Recognizing something is pay-to-win does not mean you take any particular position regarding the ethics of such business practices. It does not equate to a condemnation or lack of approval. It often does, but it does not always. Clearly, many do not mind pay-to-win mechanics in games and have no ethical objections to it whatsoever.
Because I'm that pedantic ***.
In all honestly, I'm tired of the phrase getting watered down because it often does (and I might argue, should) have a very negative connotation. I am a sucker for clear concise communication.
Look, we're never going to agree that time = a gameplay advantage, especially when we're talking about hours spent (not months or years).
What we can agree on is that it's not a good thing for the health of the game overall.2 -
Conduit0✭✭✭✭✭
✭No it's not P2W.God I wish the phrase "pay to win" would just go away, so many redacted throw the phrase out to describe anything they don't like that its lost all meaning.
Pay to win is when you can spend money to gain an advantage that can not be obtained through regular gameplay PERIOD. To describe anything else as pay to win is an intellectually dishonest attempt to label something you don't like as being inherently wrong.
You are certainly free to dislike the idea of being able to buy skyshards, but it is unequivocally not pay to win.
Yes, some people use the phrase as a snarl world. Not everyone does. Pay-to-win =/= bad or unethical. It simply means paying cash for an advantage in a game that bypasses usual time investments. If you disagree, please correct the "intellectually dishonest" Wikipedia entry on pay-to-win and all other sources of legitimate information that disagree with your opinion.
Thanks!
I don't need to change it, no one who's opinion is worth caring about uses wikipedia to back up their arguments. Besides your statement is already self defeating, "paying cash for an advantage in a game that bypasses usual time investments" the idea is utterly absurd, something as benign as buying an XP scroll is "pay to win"? No that is an idiotic argument to make. The key is in the last word, "win" you are not "winning" anything by simply reducing the amount of grind it takes for a character to reach its full potential.3 -
DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it's P2W.God I wish the phrase "pay to win" would just go away, so many redacted throw the phrase out to describe anything they don't like that its lost all meaning.
Pay to win is when you can spend money to gain an advantage that can not be obtained through regular gameplay PERIOD. To describe anything else as pay to win is an intellectually dishonest attempt to label something you don't like as being inherently wrong.
You are certainly free to dislike the idea of being able to buy skyshards, but it is unequivocally not pay to win.
Yes, some people use the phrase as a snarl world. Not everyone does. Pay-to-win =/= bad or unethical. It simply means paying cash for an advantage in a game that bypasses usual time investments. If you disagree, please correct the "intellectually dishonest" Wikipedia entry on pay-to-win and all other sources of legitimate information that disagree with your opinion.
Thanks!
I don't need to change it, no one who's opinion is worth caring about uses wikipedia to back up their arguments. Besides your statement is already self defeating, "paying cash for an advantage in a game that bypasses usual time investments" the idea is utterly absurd, something as benign as buying an XP scroll is "pay to win"? No that is an idiotic argument to make. The key is in the last word, "win" you are not "winning" anything by simply reducing the amount of grind it takes for a character to reach its full potential.
You realize that using wikipedia to back up your opinion(s) is a fools errand.
I could go in right now and change the definition of "Pay to Win" to a type of fish, yes?0 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭No it's not P2W.So what would you be "winning". You're spare time? Then sure. But its a painful slog that nobody will miss!!PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.1 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭No it's not P2W.People need to learn the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.3 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes it's P2W.
I am pretty sure that noone will miss running the same dungeon over and over neither.NeillMcAttack wrote: »So what would you be "winning". You're spare time? Then sure. But its a painful slog that nobody will miss!!2 -
inationxiSoul ShrivenYes it's P2W.At this rate, people will just be able to pay for a maxed 50 alt with lorebooks and shards.2
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Beffagorn✭✭✭Other.Technically, yes it's p2w. You are buying things that have a direct effect on your character that is not strictly cosmetic.
Do i care about it? Not really. it takes me 1hr, maybe 2 or 3 at the absolute worst to get all the points i need.
What i'm concerned about is that what they're doing is a VERY slippery slope. I hope that this is the first and last time something like this happens.1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.Do you know those *** mobile games where you can buy premium currency with real money to speed up progress?
This is pretty much the same.
Really disappointed by ZOS, should have been a FREE manual opt-in, opt-out option, but immediately finding a way to make people pay is just a big YIKES.
THIS. the game is just getting more and more cashgrabby. we are verging into f2p monetanization territory, but with a game that also charges us for expansions and DLC's.
by a technical definition its not a pay to win, but it doesn't make it any less scummy IMO.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other.
Wait, I made a poll to draw attention away from it being a cash grab?MartiniDaniels wrote: »It's obvious that this is not P2W and just a cash grab.
Poll created as prove "that is not a P2W" to draw attention from cash grab, results were known from very beginning.
Of course, this is common tactics for many situations, widely used.. by everyone in power
For example government want to introduce new kind of tax, small one. Then they launch media campaign how "evil corporations" are pushing huge unacceptable tax. After ton of debates huge tax "is forbidden personally by prime minister" and small tax remains "as trading chip with corporations". Result - everyone's happy and content. But if they just applied small tax without the show, it will end up with some riot etc..0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.At this rate, people will just be able to pay for a maxed 50 alt with lorebooks and shards.
that's a GOOD thing, not a BAD thing.
look, if you already completed something it makes it "better" for all of us that we don't get forced to repeat it over and over and over for each alt or new class or new character.
unless of course you WANT to, then that's fine but the rest of us we have a choice, some of us don't like doing that then we have a choice not to if we don't want to.2 -
Androconium✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it's P2W.Its not pay to win, but it is shady asf.
@ZOS_RichLambert
I have no issue with this itself. My issue is that this is way to incentivized on console. Skyshards and lorebooks on console are a pita. We dont have addons for this and you havent given us that tool. If we need to hunt lore books or skyshards it requires going away from game on a second device. To look up and mark locations of skyshards one at a time. Either going through achievements to see what ones would have already got marking them off or going through every single shard in zone.
Now your telling us we can have them unlocked for all our characters after we have already gone thru that pita but ONLY IF WE PAY YOU.
Despite the fact console has been asking for this QoL change for years.
Rich, ik this is some bs *** from upper management being like how do we monetize this more. You know though man this isnt how a games company should treat the player base. If your gunna add this to the shop you have to at least give console the map markers for this. Otherwise its just a massive slap in the face to us.
Yep. Stop giving them more ideas.0 -
inationxiSoul ShrivenYes it's P2W.At this rate, people will just be able to pay for a maxed 50 alt with lorebooks and shards.
that's a GOOD thing, not a BAD thing.
look, if you already completed something it makes it "better" for all of us that we don't get forced to repeat it over and over and over for each alt or new class or new character.
unless of course you WANT to, then that's fine but the rest of us we have a choice, some of us don't like doing that then we have a choice not to if we don't want to.
we'll agree to disagree0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭P2W, ehhh... Probably not. To me P2W takes a little more than that, but it's certainly in the neighborhood. Truthfully, I think we jumped the P2W shark when they allowed people to sell crowns for gold.
What it is is SCUMMY AF!
I am generally for things being account wide as I believe it encourages Alt play, and at some point, things like skyshards for the 15th time are nothing more than a chore. That said, using it as a cash grab is pretty lousy IMO.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 28, 2019 8:53PM5 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes it's P2W.Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
Then give me my item chest at the beginning of the dungeon. I am farming those for years, no need to farm it again with my alts.1 -
eso_lags✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭any way the devs can cash in they will. I dont really care about p2w I care about devs sacrificing things that could be great for the game just to cash in and be greedy. Mount reskins is an example. But thats zos for ya.1 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.Facefister wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
Then give me my item chest at the beginning of the dungeon. I am farming those for years, no need to farm it again with my alts.
if you have completed it once allready and earned that achievement?
then go right ahead, as long as you allready completed it before then theres nothing wrong with that.1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.Facefister wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
Then give me my item chest at the beginning of the dungeon. I am farming those for years, no need to farm it again with my alts.
if you have completed it once allready and earned that achievement?
then go right ahead, as long as you allready completed it before then theres nothing wrong with that.
Further proof these people don’t care about ruining the game1 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.
Yeah but I mean... I complain about ZOS and their cash grabs all the time, I don't think I am quite the right choice of person to be running their obfuscation campaigns.MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Wait, I made a poll to draw attention away from it being a cash grab?MartiniDaniels wrote: »It's obvious that this is not P2W and just a cash grab.
Poll created as prove "that is not a P2W" to draw attention from cash grab, results were known from very beginning.
Of course, this is common tactics for many situations, widely used.. by everyone in power
For example government want to introduce new kind of tax, small one. Then they launch media campaign how "evil corporations" are pushing huge unacceptable tax. After ton of debates huge tax "is forbidden personally by prime minister" and small tax remains "as trading chip with corporations". Result - everyone's happy and content. But if they just applied small tax without the show, it will end up with some riot etc..
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."2 -
Conduit0✭✭✭✭✭
✭No it's not P2W.Facefister wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
Then give me my item chest at the beginning of the dungeon. I am farming those for years, no need to farm it again with my alts.
if you have completed it once allready and earned that achievement?
then go right ahead, as long as you allready completed it before then theres nothing wrong with that.
Further proof these people don’t care about ruining the game
How is it ruining the game to not force people to grind out achievements they have already completed on a previous character?5 -
ArenGesus✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.Facefister wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
Then give me my item chest at the beginning of the dungeon. I am farming those for years, no need to farm it again with my alts.
if you have completed it once allready and earned that achievement?
then go right ahead, as long as you allready completed it before then theres nothing wrong with that.
Further proof these people don’t care about ruining the game
How is it ruining the game to not force people to grind out achievements they have already completed on a previous character?
Especially when you consider that the drop sets and skins are account bound anyway.3