Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

mairwen85

Other.

MikaHR wrote: »

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WeyounTM wrote: »

This one thinks it is just adds a choice to maybe skip some content

Brainless act of collecting a skyshard is not content. It is anti-gameplay and ZOS did THE worst thing and put it in the cash shop instead just being account wide unlock like it SHOULD have been from the START.

There should at least be a choice of paying with GOLD or CROWNS, just like skill/stat respec. But no, in new 2019. ESO EVERYTHING goes to cash shop ONLY.

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Elwendryll wrote: »

I don't think I will use it, as I plan on doing everything again with my Necromancer anyway. I haven't done the alliance quests since several years, so I think I'm ready to replay the game.

On a side note. It's not remotely pay to win, there is nothing remotely pay to win on this game. Aria Games, go play games from them, go PvP there, and come back, enlightened on the true meaning and embodiment of the term Pay-to-win.

A lot of people here are completely ignorant and clueless and just about this and it is obvious they have never payed a real P2W game.

It isn't quite that brainless. Let's be honest about what skyshards are and what they provide to the game. If you're a new player, and using the zone guide, solving the hints to discover them by way of exploration is fun for some people (nods back to open world games with hidden rewards and easter eggs) -- if you happen upon a skyshard whilst questing it has an 'oh look' aspect too, and of course delves are locations to not just kill and quest but also locate one... there's something for the completionist in it... all of that is not anti-gameplay, it's a rewards system for explorative play.. it's an alternative method and path for play... that said, done it once, any excitement/enjoyment very quickly wares off and is mighty thin by the umpteenth play through. You could say, it's almost like they should be map marked after discovery for those follow up alts, or purchasable from in-game vendors if you have a zone achievement on your account.

It's utterly tasteless to make it crown store exclusive, but hopefully (fingers and toes crossed), they will come to their senses and make both options (i.e. Gold or Crowns) available -- I'm not going to hold my breath though

Sidebar

Lets not throw words like ignorant around because people have a different view of what constitutes P2W -- the thread has been civil for 14 pages -- a surprisingly nice turn of events

xan4silkb14_ESO

No it's not P2W.

I'll call something P2W as soon as its something that can only be exclusively obtained with RL$ and is better than anything earned in game.

MikaHR

No it's not P2W.

It was always and ALWAYS about getting skysahrds/lorebooks/psijic AFTER you have collected them once.

And it is very ignorant, P2W is clearly when you cant win any other way than paying, plenty of real P2W games out there, theres nothing P2W about skyshards.

mairwen85

Other.

xan4silkb14_ESO wrote: »

I'll call something P2W as soon as its something that can only be exclusively obtained with RL$ and is better than anything earned in game.

I do feel this is borderline though. You can grind for days, or purchase an unlock. However, you have to have unlocked them first by grind to unlock the unlock purchase

Does having a pile of skillpoints before unlocking skills provide an advantage? I'm not sure -- it ceratinly means you can invest/slot as soon as available; at the same time, respeccing costs the total sum of all skill points, not just the ones you change -- so if you're developing a character, you are at a gold disadvantage from the off, whereas a player who discovers them will have a climbing price as their character grows. That said, how great an impact does that make for a veteran player who knows the build they're going for and exactly which skills they want -- same foundation, does that same player really need the entire pile of skill points?

I don't think we can call it P2W -- perhaps P4QoL

With borderline, I mean it's a creeping worry that the next evolution will be closer to the wire.

Universe

Yes it's P2W.

I do hope ZOS will not take this poll into consideration when deciding to implement this new feature.
Poll results are interesting but they don't represent the entire ESO community.

@ZOS_GinaBruno A bit of common sense... Skyshards for crowns should never be introduced.
Shortcuts of this type are not needed and will only do more harm than good.
Currently, unlocking skyshards is a very nice grind for character development & achievements and if you will make it easier to earn all skyshards it will only make it obsolete/meaningless.
Please consider all options before reaching any conclusion regarding this matter.

Fluke.Slywalker

No it's not P2W.

Bit of a stinker for those of us who have farmed those shards on several toons over many years, but it's not P2W. Pay to get that which you have already gotten, just a shortcut.

I'll probably do that myself, just made a healer and I am needing a few SP so it will be ideal as my main toon has 95% of shards.

DaveMoeDee

No it's not P2W.

mairwen85 wrote: »

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xan4silkb14_ESO wrote: »

I'll call something P2W as soon as its something that can only be exclusively obtained with RL$ and is better than anything earned in game.

I do feel this is borderline though. You can grind for days, or purchase an unlock. However, you have to have unlocked them first by grind to unlock the unlock purchase

Does having a pile of skillpoints before unlocking skills provide an advantage? I'm not sure -- it ceratinly means you can invest/slot as soon as available; at the same time, respeccing costs the total sum of all skill points, not just the ones you change -- so if you're developing a character, you are at a gold disadvantage from the off, whereas a player who discovers them will have a climbing price as their character grows. That said, how great an impact does that make for a veteran player who knows the build they're going for and exactly which skills they want -- same foundation, does that same player really need the entire pile of skill points?

I don't think we can call it P2W -- perhaps P4QoL

With borderline, I mean it's a creeping worry that the next evolution will be closer to the wire.

I just can't get myself to care about advantages below max level/power. But, to be fair, this does help a lot in under-50 BGs/Cyro. If the unlock is account-wide, people can easily keep creating new characters with all the skillpoints they will need.

Daraugh

Yes it's P2W.

If players are bored enough with the game that this is going into the store, I'd be more concerned about that.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

Turelus wrote: »

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mairwen85 wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

I've answered 'yes' but in the strictest terms this doesn't buy 'winning' but it does allow the player with the deepest pockets to bypass 'the game'.

And I don't actually care that much if they do from a personal viewpoint.

What bothers me is that this will harm the game and people's enjoyment of the game.

Why?

Personally when I am not actively creating a new characters I forget what a rich world ZOS have created for us, how varied the zones are, the general good quality of the quests and the voice acting, the little off beat mini quests you encounter while roaming all over the map finding your Mage Guild books (will these be next?) and Skyshards.

I can appreciate that some people just want to jump into Trials or PvP and would probably pay for a crown store pre-made if they could.

I also appreciate no-one is forcing me to buy these packs.

But I worry that by being able to skip the game people will have less appreciation for it - it will become a do it once at speed followed by just buying their way to the end and they will actually reduce their own enjoyment.

I also know damn well that people in competitive guilds will feel pressure to buy these packs so they can quickly match the latest FoTM build so it may be that people will be buying them to keep up rather than simply for their own enjoyment.That's not cool.

The other aspect is QoL in the game - it's nice to inhabit a living world with other players zipping about doing their thing while you do yours. Makes it feel like an MMO not a solo game. But how many of those players you see are levelling a second, third or tenth character? How much quieter will zones become if the reason to visit them is removed? How will that impact on how new players perceive how popular and busy the game actually is?

Zone quests also provide skill points. There's more than enough reason to revisit them -- unless ZoS adds 'Buy quest completes' to the crown store too... shhh... I don't think they're looking.

I think the purchases are aimed at aleviating those boring grinds you need on every alt to make them end game ready.
Skyshards, Undaunted, Mage Guild, Fighters Guild, Psijic, Alliance War.

Basically all the things people have complained are horrible to grind and wanted account wide. ZOS decided to give people to option to skip the grind, and monetise it at the same time.

Instead of fixing and improving on leveling an alt, let's monetize it! Everything is monetized in this game and now they started to monetize QoL patches. Pay2Convenience is Pay2Win and people treating it otherwise are just pushing themselves down the slippery slope further.

todokete

Yes it's P2W.

Game was already p2w with the gifting update

mairwen85

Other.

todokete wrote: »

Game was already p2w with the gifting update

This confuses me. Please explain because I feel like I'm missing something now. Even if there were totally OP items in the crown store, gifting them would be paying for others to win... What in the store right now allows me to pay for another player to have an advantage over other players that I don't gift the same to?

rotaugen454

No it's not P2W.

I just started my 13th character. I’ve already done the skyshard grind 12 times. I don’t see how it’s P2W for me to skip the grind finally.

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Universe wrote: »

I do hope ZOS will not take this poll into consideration when deciding to implement this new feature.
Poll results are interesting but they don't represent the entire ESO community.

@ZOS_GinaBruno A bit of common sense... Skyshards for crowns should never be introduced.
Shortcuts of this type are not needed and will only do more harm than good.
Currently, unlocking skyshards is a very nice grind for character development & achievements and if you will make it easier to earn all skyshards it will only make it obsolete/meaningless.
Please consider all options before reaching any conclusion regarding this matter.

Currently skyshards is a horrible, mindless grind and many people do it begrudgingly out of necessity rather than character development & achievements. It is already obsolete/meaningless. Your preferred style of gameplay does not automatically become the default, mandatory style of gameplay, so this is about choice for those who are different from you.

That being said, you're totally right that this shouldn't be in the crown store, especially given the current disparity between console and PC (add-ons vs. stock). It does feel like a slap in the face that the game is intentionally created to be grindy, particularly on one platform over another (with no option to change platforms). And then as a solution, instead of making QoL improvements, they hold out their hand.

I've been arguing that this isn't P2W and that's still my opinion. But I'm not happy about it at all. This poll would have been better had it included the option for 'not P2W but infuriating that it's not a QoL improvement instead of a crown purchase'.

mairwen85

Other.

ArenGesus wrote: »

This poll would have been better had it included the option for 'not P2W but infuriating that it's not a QoL improvement instead of a crown purchase'.

I clicked 'Other' and gave my opinion (same as yours) in my first posted comment. Seemed the best alternative to the absolute option.

Edit:

I think subscribers should get skyshard unlocks as part of the subscriber benefits

jircris11

No it's not P2W.

Dont get why ppl cant comprehend p2w. The term it's self means paying REAL cash for an advantage other sidwise unobtainable. Like if outfits in the CS added stats or something similar. Buying items for crowns otherwise obtainable in game is not p2w. To buy the skyshards you still have to collect them on another character. Thus you did that work, personally I wont use it as I dont mind collecting ss.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

jircris11 wrote: »

Dont get why ppl cant comprehend p2w. The term it's self means paying REAL cash for an advantage other sidwise unobtainable. Like if outfits in the CS added stats or something similar. Buying items for crowns otherwise obtainable in game is not p2w. To buy the skyshards you still have to collect them on another character. Thus you did that work, personally I wont use it as I dont mind collecting ss.

I want complete sets on the crown store. It's pay2convenience and you can still farm them.

Defilted

From what I understand you will all ready had to collect the skyshards on a different character. You can then by a SP for a zone you have already previously collected. I don't consider this P2W. This means you already have a more than likely a max level toon you are playing.

P2W would be start a brand new account. Then buy all the Skills you need to complete it without ever taking a step into game areas. This would allow you to get a big head start on another person who runs around and collects them.

Cavedog

No it's not P2W.

It's more of a time save and a money maker than it is pay to win. I don't see how this really effects much in the game other than creating an opportunity for ZOS to make money off those that just don't want to do another grind. ...and lets be honest, there are plenty of mindless grinds in this game when it comes to leveling toons.

ankeor

Yes it's P2W.

You are buying time and time is money.

todokete

Yes it's P2W.

mairwen85 wrote: »

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todokete wrote: »

Game was already p2w with the gifting update

This confuses me. Please explain because I feel like I'm missing something now. Even if there were totally OP items in the crown store, gifting them would be paying for others to win... What in the store right now allows me to pay for another player to have an advantage over other players that I don't gift the same to?

you can buy gold

karekiz

No it's not P2W.

Member when people said it would never happen because it would kill all player progression?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/464131/why-not-make-skyshards-and-mages-books-account-bound/p15

I member

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Starlock wrote: »

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TheShadowScout wrote: »

Pay to Win means getting an advantage through the cash shop you -cannot- get through normal playing.

This is not an extra advantage over normal playing. This is just getting something you can play for in a different way - paying for it.

Just like the riding lessons, or the motiv books.
No more. No less.

For information:

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In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

1. You can’t always trust Wikipedia
2. How is it P2W exactly when mostly EVERYONE has the same class, same skill line ect- but the only thing that changes is the players own skill?

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

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jircris11 wrote: »

Dont get why ppl cant comprehend p2w. The term it's self means paying REAL cash for an advantage other sidwise unobtainable. Like if outfits in the CS added stats or something similar. Buying items for crowns otherwise obtainable in game is not p2w. To buy the skyshards you still have to collect them on another character. Thus you did that work, personally I wont use it as I dont mind collecting ss.

I want complete sets on the crown store. It's pay2convenience and you can still farm them.

Once you've obtained a farmed set, it's available account-wide. So you already have this. Shyshards aren't, but you will soon have this.

mairwen85

Other.

todokete wrote: »

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mairwen85 wrote: »

todokete wrote: »

Game was already p2w with the gifting update

This confuses me. Please explain because I feel like I'm missing something now. Even if there were totally OP items in the crown store, gifting them would be paying for others to win... What in the store right now allows me to pay for another player to have an advantage over other players that I don't gift the same to?

you can buy gold

Ok... and how is that P2W? I can earn gold too by selling things, and just playing the game. What can I do with that gold for crowns I couldn't do otherwise? I'm not arguing with you -- I just want to understand your position on this.

My position:

If you're saying that resale/gifting of crown items for in-game currency is P2W because it gives the gifting player an unfair advantage on being able to spend more in-game currency on in-game acquired items from an in-game vendor or guild trader, I disagree with your definition. If you're alluding to something else, I'm interested to hear how players are gaming/exploiting this system for advantages they could otherwise not obtain.

heaven13

For all the people saying "I hope they do this with Mages Guild and Psijic and Undaunted" - this I would draw the line at and call P2W.

Skyshards allow you to put skillpoints into lines you have leveled regardless of what line they are in. You still have to do the work to get the line itself.

Lorebooks and Psijic rifts and dungeon achievements are HOW you unlock those skill lines. Without collecting lorebooks or closing rifts or doing dungeons, you won't level that guild line and thus wouldn't have access to that guild's skills.

jircris11

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

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jircris11 wrote: »

Dont get why ppl cant comprehend p2w. The term it's self means paying REAL cash for an advantage other sidwise unobtainable. Like if outfits in the CS added stats or something similar. Buying items for crowns otherwise obtainable in game is not p2w. To buy the skyshards you still have to collect them on another character. Thus you did that work, personally I wont use it as I dont mind collecting ss.

I want complete sets on the crown store. It's pay2convenience and you can still farm them.

Sure, after all sets dont make you win lol. I seen ppl decked out and still get murdered.

ZOS_Ragnar

We have removed some comments that were disruptive and not constructive.

BNOC

No it's not P2W.

Universe wrote: »

I do hope ZOS will not take this poll into consideration when deciding to implement this new feature.
Poll results are interesting but they don't represent the entire ESO community.

@ZOS_GinaBruno A bit of common sense... Skyshards for crowns should never be introduced.
Shortcuts of this type are not needed and will only do more harm than good.
Currently, unlocking skyshards is a very nice grind for character development & achievements and if you will make it easier to earn all skyshards it will only make it obsolete/meaningless.
Please consider all options before reaching any conclusion regarding this matter.

We don't represent the entire community, no. But we represent those who wish to be here, involved in the discussions - The rest obviously don't care enough, in which case, don't care about the outcome.

This effectively makes us the sample data for the ESO community and very worth consideration.

Tell me one harm that comes from me having skillpoints when I create a new character.

Facefister wrote: »

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jircris11 wrote: »

Dont get why ppl cant comprehend p2w. The term it's self means paying REAL cash for an advantage other sidwise unobtainable. Like if outfits in the CS added stats or something similar. Buying items for crowns otherwise obtainable in game is not p2w. To buy the skyshards you still have to collect them on another character. Thus you did that work, personally I wont use it as I dont mind collecting ss.

I want complete sets on the crown store. It's pay2convenience and you can still farm them.

Your example involves playing the game, not just running around clicking stationary objects and moving on to the next.
Ironically, I bet if you couldn't put sets in your bank and pick them up on another character, you'd want that added.

Don't be so pedantic.

Turelus

No it's not P2W.

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

We have removed some comments that were disruptive and not constructive.

The real question though, is does RyanM consider this P2W?

mairwen85

Other.

@Turelus coming in here without an opinion... Some people