Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

Hippie4927

Yes it's P2W.

MyNameIsElias wrote: »

You dont get any combat advantage over others for purchasing it, you only pay for convenience.

I disagree with not having any combat advantage. Suppose I take a low level to the 'under 50 campaign' in Cyrodiil and I haven't bought the shards/skillpoints in the crown store but others have purchased them. They will have more skills unlocked and leveled than I will which gives them a combat advantage.

I think this is a bad idea plus it takes a lot of the adventuring/discovering out of the game for the alts.

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

Hippie4927 wrote: »

MyNameIsElias wrote: »

You dont get any combat advantage over others for purchasing it, you only pay for convenience.

I disagree with not having any combat advantage. Suppose I take a low level to the 'under 50 campaign' in Cyrodiil and I haven't bought the shards/skillpoints in the crown store but others have purchased them. They will have more skills unlocked and leveled than I will which gives them a combat advantage.

I think this is a bad idea plus it takes a lot of the adventuring/discovering out of the game for the alts.

But if you then took 5-10 hours to run around all the zone maps collecting skyshards, you would have the same amount of SP as them.

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

And you still have to vet-clear that dungeon. Maybe I need those IC skyshards? Your argument of "not a test of skill" falls flat when I need those IC skyshard.

So go get them? I don't know what you're saying - if you feel you need them, just walk over and F on it.

I am telling you that you didn't present a single fact why "the chest at the start" is worse than instant Skyshards. Infact, they're both on the same spectrum and when ZoS is implementing those instant Skyshards they should also consider the chest unlock.

You know you still need to actually find them once first right? You don't get to just purchase skillpoints that you haven't previously earned? I'm suggesting that for dungeons, if you can personally achieve a clear on your own than there is no reason you shouldn't just have access to the sets dropped within. So, that is totally on par with what's being done with skyshards and I see no practical reason to make people grind for something that they've shown they can get merely by just investing a bunch of mindless grinding. So what part of that are you taking exception to?

haelene

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

I didn't realize the skill points (or werewolf, or vampire, or whatever) available in the crown store have some magical properties that don't come with the one's you get by playing the game. Huh. They must've left that out of the announcement.

Again:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items

That is a very standard definition of PtW and it specifically states that whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

Where is the gameplay advantage?

Time is not an advantage, so I still so no argument. The skill points are not free no matter what the player chooses, they both cost something. Time or money. The player get's to choose.

And both end up with identical skill points that do nothing different from each other. So...? Again?

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

MyNameIsElias wrote: »

You dont get any combat advantage over others for purchasing it, you only pay for convenience.

I disagree with not having any combat advantage. Suppose I take a low level to the 'under 50 campaign' in Cyrodiil and I haven't bought the shards/skillpoints in the crown store but others have purchased them. They will have more skills unlocked and leveled than I will which gives them a combat advantage.

I think this is a bad idea plus it takes a lot of the adventuring/discovering out of the game for the alts.

But if you then took 5-10 hours to run around all the zone maps collecting skyshards, you would have the same amount of SP as them.

Very true, but the fact that they were able to get it quicker by paying cash is the "advantage" needed to meet the requirements for it being P2W.

Turelus

No it's not P2W.

firedrgn wrote: »

Where did this info come from would like to read up .. thanks

@firedrgn from a press event. I have a link in the OP now to more information from that event.

Chufu also did a great write up with lots of pictures here: https://www.eso-library.com/core/index.php?chapter-elsweyr-en/

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Hippie4927 wrote: »

MyNameIsElias wrote: »

You dont get any combat advantage over others for purchasing it, you only pay for convenience.

I disagree with not having any combat advantage. Suppose I take a low level to the 'under 50 campaign' in Cyrodiil and I haven't bought the shards/skillpoints in the crown store but others have purchased them. They will have more skills unlocked and leveled than I will which gives them a combat advantage.

I think this is a bad idea plus it takes a lot of the adventuring/discovering out of the game for the alts.

I think you're skipping over an important part of leveling a character - having the skill points does NOT give you the skills. You still need to level those. So you will NOT have all of your racial skills under 50. You will NOT have all of your morphs and skill tree passives. It's just that you don't have to go run all over the map once you HAVE leveled them up. What you're describing, being in combat in under 50 with a bunch of fully-leveled opponents isn't going to happen. It's just that they will have the ability to apply a skill point whenever they have gotten a skill leveled. But so can anybody - they simply go take their horse for a walk first.

ATomiX96

Yes it's P2W.

Do you know those *** mobile games where you can buy premium currency with real money to speed up progress?
This is pretty much the same.
Really disappointed by ZOS, should have been a FREE manual opt-in, opt-out option, but immediately finding a way to make people pay is just a big YIKES.

Hippie4927

Yes it's P2W.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

MyNameIsElias wrote: »

You dont get any combat advantage over others for purchasing it, you only pay for convenience.

I disagree with not having any combat advantage. Suppose I take a low level to the 'under 50 campaign' in Cyrodiil and I haven't bought the shards/skillpoints in the crown store but others have purchased them. They will have more skills unlocked and leveled than I will which gives them a combat advantage.

I think this is a bad idea plus it takes a lot of the adventuring/discovering out of the game for the alts.

But if you then took 5-10 hours to run around all the zone maps collecting skyshards, you would have the same amount of SP as them.

Maybe that's not how some of us like to play the game. I don't run around the whole map chasing shards. I collect the shards in each zone as I quest and explore the zone. I don't want to be forced to just run down shards in order to compete.

Starlock

Yes it's P2W.

I wonder if folks would understand some of this better if we compared this to buying groceries.

Buying skill points in Elder Scrolls Online is like going to the store to buy groceries. Nobody actually needs to buy groceries at a store, right? That's just a convenience! Everyone has the ability to spend months growing their own food instead. So to suggest people who buy their food in a grocery store have an advantage over those who spend months growing their own is clearly misguided. Never mind that the people who spend months growing their own food are career farmers who don't really have a lot of time to do much else, right?

MakeMeUhSamich

Other.

Holy Donut Holes, Batman. Just add a bloody Class Change Token already and be done with it.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

Yes it's P2W.

Are skyshards cosmetic?

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

I didn't realize the skill points (or werewolf, or vampire, or whatever) available in the crown store have some magical properties that don't come with the one's you get by playing the game. Huh. They must've left that out of the announcement.

Again:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items

That is a very standard definition of PtW and it specifically states that whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

Where is the gameplay advantage?

Time is not an advantage, so I still so no argument. The skill points are not free no matter what the player chooses, they both cost something. Time or money. The player get's to choose.

And both end up with identical skill points that do nothing different from each other. So...? Again?

Time most certainly is an advantage. It's even specifically listed as an advantage in the definition for P2W which you quoted back to me without internalizing. It's that part in bold which I repeated three times again immediately after the full definition.

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Hippie4927 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

MyNameIsElias wrote: »

You dont get any combat advantage over others for purchasing it, you only pay for convenience.

I disagree with not having any combat advantage. Suppose I take a low level to the 'under 50 campaign' in Cyrodiil and I haven't bought the shards/skillpoints in the crown store but others have purchased them. They will have more skills unlocked and leveled than I will which gives them a combat advantage.

I think this is a bad idea plus it takes a lot of the adventuring/discovering out of the game for the alts.

But if you then took 5-10 hours to run around all the zone maps collecting skyshards, you would have the same amount of SP as them.

Maybe that's not how some of us like to play the game. I don't run around the whole map chasing shards. I collect the shards in each zone as I quest and explore the zone. I don't want to be forced to just run down shards in order to compete.

So keep doing that? Other people having access to the points faster isn't going to put any more pressure on you to change your game style than it does today, because I guarantee the people who would buy this option run around and collect all of the points they need before they show up in Cyro anyway. You are facing the same type of opponent today that you will tomorrow - the difference is that those people didn't have to spend time doing something they don't want to do. The net impact on you is absolutely zero.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

I didn't realize the skill points (or werewolf, or vampire, or whatever) available in the crown store have some magical properties that don't come with the one's you get by playing the game. Huh. They must've left that out of the announcement.

Again:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items

That is a very standard definition of PtW and it specifically states that whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

Where is the gameplay advantage?

Time is not an advantage, so I still so no argument. The skill points are not free no matter what the player chooses, they both cost something. Time or money. The player get's to choose.

And both end up with identical skill points that do nothing different from each other. So...? Again?

You've saved time and skipped content. You also skipped dangers and the possibility of getting killed if you take IC into account.

RebornV3x

No it's not P2W.

Not pay to win if you already collected thats zones Skyshards on your main character then I don't see a problem with paying to have those skyshards unlocked or collected on an alt character makes the game more alt friendly which is good for the game.

The only way this P2W is if there literally selling skillpoints or skyshards in the crown store and removed skyshards from the game altogether so you could only buy them this is a pay for convenience item so I'm fine with it

Krec

Yes it's P2W.

Might be great as you then don't have to go back to the regions of the game. Can they make it so you can have achievements account wide too? And skills? Grinding undaunted skill line is awful for multiple toons, takes forever. I'd gladly pay to play/grind less.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

RebornV3x wrote: »

Not pay to win if you already collected thats zones Skyshards on your main character then I don't see a problem with paying to have those skyshards unlocked or collected on an alt character makes the game more alt friendly which is good for the game.

The only way this P2W is if there literally selling skillpoints or skyshards in the crown store and removed skyshards from the game altogether so you could only buy them this is a pay for convenience item so I'm fine with it

What about my chest? Items still stay in the game, and you can still grind them. I just save time by it.

FlyingSwan

Yes it's P2W.

Depends how you define P2W. Many, not all, define it as paying to create/improve items/skills faster than the normal run rate of the game for players who do not pay the premium. As skyshards give skillpoints, this falls into the P2W category for this definition.

What I will say, is not long ago there'd have been no debate on this point; it would have multilaterally been called P2W, but as people become desensitized to P2W in the gaming world as a whole, they are now amending their definition. Basically, none of us want to accept that the hobby we love has become infested with corporate prostitutes.

ATomiX96

Yes it's P2W.

Just wait until they start selling undaunted, mages guild, fighters guild and psijic skillline for like 3k crowns.
Eventually they are gonna start selling titles and *** as well... keep Crowns Store just for housing, mounts and other cosmetics.
Cant wait until Tick-Tock is available in crownstore !!! LIMITED TIME OFFER ONLY 2 WEEKS LEFT !!! YOU DONT HAVE "TIME" TO GET INTO PROGRESS GROUPS FOR ACHIEVEMENTS? !!! ONLY FOR ESO+ MEMBERS !!! ONLY 15K CROWNS !!!

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Depends how you define P2W. Many, not all, define it as paying to create/improve items/skills faster than the normal run rate of the game for players who do not pay the premium. As skyshards give skillpoints, this falls into the P2W category for this definition.

What I will say, is not long ago there'd have been no debate on this point; it would have multilaterally been called P2W, but as people become desensitized to P2W in the gaming world as a whole, they are now amending their definition. Basically, none of us want to accept that the hobby we love has become infested with corporate prostitutes.

Convenience items have not been considered P2W by the majority of gamers since their inception. This isn't a recent phenomenon due to "desensitization".

My definition of P2W has always been:

1. Does paying give you an advantage not available to players who don't pay? P2W
2. Does paying give you an advantage that is available in-game, but is prohibitively expensive (it either takes an unreasonable amount of time or in-game currency to unlock)? P2W
3. Does paying help you avoid minor, non skill-based time sinks? Not P2W

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Depends how you define P2W. Many, not all, define it as paying to create/improve items/skills faster than the normal run rate of the game for players who do not pay the premium. As skyshards give skillpoints, this falls into the P2W category for this definition.

What I will say, is not long ago there'd have been no debate on this point; it would have multilaterally been called P2W, but as people become desensitized to P2W in the gaming world as a whole, they are now amending their definition. Basically, none of us want to accept that the hobby we love has become infested with corporate prostitutes.

Convenience items have not been considered P2W by the majority of gamers since their inception. This isn't a recent phenomenon.

Lol no.

haelene

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

Time most certainly is an advantage. It's even specifically listed as an advantage in the definition for P2W which you quoted back to me without internalizing. It's that part in bold which I repeated three times again immediately after the full definition.

I highly disagree - time is not a gameplay advantage at all. How long someone takes to acquire something has no bearing on how effective that thing is in gameplay.

Are we also going to completely ignore the fact that the gathering of the money itself takes time?

FlyingSwan

Yes it's P2W.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Depends how you define P2W. Many, not all, define it as paying to create/improve items/skills faster than the normal run rate of the game for players who do not pay the premium. As skyshards give skillpoints, this falls into the P2W category for this definition.

What I will say, is not long ago there'd have been no debate on this point; it would have multilaterally been called P2W, but as people become desensitized to P2W in the gaming world as a whole, they are now amending their definition. Basically, none of us want to accept that the hobby we love has become infested with corporate prostitutes.

Convenience items have not been considered P2W by the majority of gamers since their inception.

Agreed. But this is not a matter of convenience.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Time most certainly is an advantage. It's even specifically listed as an advantage in the definition for P2W which you quoted back to me without internalizing. It's that part in bold which I repeated three times again immediately after the full definition.

I highly disagree - time is not a gameplay advantage at all. How long someone takes to acquire something has no bearing on how effective that thing is in gameplay.

Are we also going to completely ignore the fact that the gathering of the money itself takes time?

Why even bother trying vHoF for the skin then? Just pay crowns and get it.

haelene

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Time most certainly is an advantage. It's even specifically listed as an advantage in the definition for P2W which you quoted back to me without internalizing. It's that part in bold which I repeated three times again immediately after the full definition.

I highly disagree - time is not a gameplay advantage at all. How long someone takes to acquire something has no bearing on how effective that thing is in gameplay.

Are we also going to completely ignore the fact that the gathering of the money itself takes time?

Why even bother trying vHoF for the skin then? Just pay crowns and get it.

Some people already do? Have you missed the ability for people to buy gold with crowns and then pay others to run them through things?

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Holy Donut Holes, Batman. Just add a bloody Class Change Token already and be done with it.

Lol! I think this is really the secret heart of things.

It appears most people aren't deciding their stance based off of the strict definition of what is P2W. Many are picking their stance off of wanting the convivence, then erroneously justifying their positions.


Many, many want those Class Change Tokens. They were told "no" by ZOS who does not wish to implement them.

Then those many hear about a possible future feature where they can simply and permanently unlock Skill Points for all of their alts. I'm sure more than a few instantly realized the potential in this... by buying enough of those, they'll never need those Class Change Tokens. They'll be able to buy enough skill points to be able to delete characters and create new ones on whim without the need to ever farm skill points again. While I'm sure many would love such a thing, and it is exactly the end point of where allowing the permanent purchase of Skill Points would end, I'm equally sure it would not be a good thing for the health of ESO.

Revelzdevelz

No it's not P2W.

P2W is used way to much. You already have to have them yes? Lol ppl will cry about anything

haelene

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Holy Donut Holes, Batman. Just add a bloody Class Change Token already and be done with it.

Lol! I think this is really the secret heart of things.

It appears most people aren't deciding their stance based off of the strict definition of what is P2W. Many are picking their stance off of wanting the convivence, then erroneously justifying their positions.


Many, many want those Class Change Tokens. They were told "no" by ZOS who does not wish to implement them.

Then those many hear about a possible future feature where they can simply and permanently unlock Skill Points for all of their alts. I'm sure more than a few instantly realized the potential in this... by buying enough of those, they'll never need those Class Change Tokens. They'll be able to buy enough skill points to be able to delete characters and create new ones on whim without the need to ever farm skill points again. While I'm sure many would love such a thing, and it is exactly the end point of where allowing the permanent purchase of Skill Points would end, I'm equally sure it would not be a good thing for the health of ESO.

Woah woah woah. You're making a huge assumption here.

I never said this was a good thing, and I never said it's something I wanted in the game, convenience or not. I won't use it (I am disabled and play this game to help distract me from pain... so, well, I don't want anything to be quick. I take my time). I just take issue with people throwing the phrase P2W on every cash shop situation.

Starlock

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Holy Donut Holes, Batman. Just add a bloody Class Change Token already and be done with it.

Lol! I think this is really the secret heart of things.

It appears most people aren't deciding their stance based off of the strict definition of what is P2W. Many are picking their stance off of wanting the convivence, then erroneously justifying their positions.


Many, many want those Class Change Tokens. They were told "no" by ZOS who does not wish to implement them.

Then those many hear about a possible future feature where they can simply and permanently unlock Skill Points for all of their alts. I'm sure more than a few instantly realized the potential in this... by buying enough of those, they'll never need those Class Change Tokens. They'll be able to buy enough skill points to be able to delete characters and create new ones on whim without the need to ever farm skill points again. While I'm sure many would love such a thing, and it is exactly the end point of where allowing the permanent purchase of Skill Points would end, I'm equally sure it would not be a good thing for the health of ESO.

Woah woah woah. You're making a huge assumption here.

I never said this was a good thing, and I never said it's something I wanted in the game, convenience or not. I won't use it (I am disabled and play this game to help distract me from pain... so, well, I don't want anything to be quick. I take my time). I just take issue with people throwing the phrase P2W on every cash shop situation.

Out of curiosity, why do you take issue with it? Recognizing something is pay-to-win does not mean you take any particular position regarding the ethics of such business practices. It does not equate to a condemnation or lack of approval. It often does, but it does not always. Clearly, many do not mind pay-to-win mechanics in games and have no ethical objections to it whatsoever.