Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

Jhalin wrote: »

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Fusozay wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

For the last time It is P2W because it eliminates the most basic requirement of skyshard obtainment: Exploring the world, while providing no in-game comparable system of requirement negation. No other utility based crown purchase in the entirety of the game does this. Even the merchant assistant has in-game comparables wandering the zones, with less functions on the cash purchase too.

thets not req. i take skyshards on my tank without exploring. just horserunning and TP on guildmates. not quest not dolmens not something else.

By what definition does exploring the world (even at the speed of light using player teleports) not qualify as exploring the world?

There is no system that allows you to visit a merchant and obtain all skyshards ever encountered without taking another step

This is P2W, it’s complete ignorance to claim otherwise. If you don’t care about faulty game systems being exploited to make sales for “solutions” instead of the issue being fixed, then you’re part of the problem with this industry

How? As I noted, the availability of points to apply does not mitigate the requirements to have the ability to apply the points. A level 10 character is still a level 10 character with a limited number of skill slots.

They're selling the "availability", not the "ability".

If I went around collecting dozens of skyshards at a low level (and I often do), that doesn't mean I have the slots to apply them to. They're just in reserve.

Besides, a 3% decrease in your stamina usage to dodge-roll isn't a game breaker and, by the time you've reached CP levels (or even if you haven't in the case of roll-over CP) is far more valuable than a few skill points.

PhxOldGamer68

No it's not P2W.

Sucks for us console players. PC has mod utilities to see all Skyshard locations and Mage Guild books. If this was allowed on consoles, we wouldn't need to purchase the Skyshard SP.

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

PhxOldGamer68 wrote: »

Sucks for us console players. PC has mod utilities to see all Skyshard locations and Mage Guild books. If this was allowed on consoles, we wouldn't need to purchase the Skyshard SP.

Unless, of course, we didn't want to wander all over Tamriel wasting our time on SS collection.

Jhalin

Yes it's P2W.

DenMoria wrote: »

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Jhalin wrote: »

Fusozay wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

For the last time It is P2W because it eliminates the most basic requirement of skyshard obtainment: Exploring the world, while providing no in-game comparable system of requirement negation. No other utility based crown purchase in the entirety of the game does this. Even the merchant assistant has in-game comparables wandering the zones, with less functions on the cash purchase too.

thets not req. i take skyshards on my tank without exploring. just horserunning and TP on guildmates. not quest not dolmens not something else.

By what definition does exploring the world (even at the speed of light using player teleports) not qualify as exploring the world?

There is no system that allows you to visit a merchant and obtain all skyshards ever encountered without taking another step

This is P2W, it’s complete ignorance to claim otherwise. If you don’t care about faulty game systems being exploited to make sales for “solutions” instead of the issue being fixed, then you’re part of the problem with this industry

How? As I noted, the availability of points to apply does not mitigate the requirements to have the ability to apply the points. A level 10 character is still a level 10 character with a limited number of skill slots.

They're selling the "availability", not the "ability".

If I went around collecting dozens of skyshards at a low level (and I often do), that doesn't mean I have the slots to apply them to. They're just in reserve.

Besides, a 3% decrease in your stamina usage to dodge-roll isn't a game breaker and, by the time you've reached CP levels (or even if you haven't in the case of roll-over CP) is far more valuable than a few skill points.

Perhaps you also missed the completely outright statement in their stream saying they will add skill lines if skillpoint purchases are successful? They will be offering abilities to be purchased the same as skillpoints, in their own words

Turelus

No it's not P2W.

Imza wrote: »

Turelus

I have one question that I've not seen asked here in this thread.

If I have ESO+ and collect every skyshard in the game.
Then I unsubscribe from ESO+.
Can I purchase the skyshard package for the areas I no longer have access to? (ie Imperial City)

@Imza I actually have no idea on that one. As that's an interesting case, I would guess if you have the achievements for them then yes you could still buy them, but not something I know officially or have tested.

CleymenZero

No it's not P2W.

Jhalin wrote: »

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CleymenZero wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Fusozay wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Fusozay wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

It is P2W, and there is no arguing that. You can argue how harmful it will be to the game.

Let's take a look at an example here. We have two people who have had an identical progress, and they just hit level 50.

Player1: Has enough skills to get the class skills he is using in his build, and some of the class passive skills.

Player2: Has every skill his build requires, all of the passives for his class, all of the relevant passives for armors and weapons, and some of the guild/PvP passives.

wrong. Player2 will have same skillpoints, he didnot take skyshards on location, so not obtain SP. and shop didnon open new skyshards.

Wrong. Progress is character based in ESO for all thing besides CP

Player1 makes a Necro and begins to level without paying, hits level 50 with an alright amount of skillpoints that give them a mostly complete build

Player2 makes a Necro and pays for 200 of the skillpoints their main earned, unlocks every passive as it becomes available, and has more than enough skillpoints for flex skills


It’s the only cash purchase to date that removes the baseline requirement from a progression system.

For horse training and banking/bag upgrades, the baseline requirement is “pay a fee”

For leveling, the baseline requirement is “kill and quest”

For obtaining food and potions, the baseline requirement is actually “purchase or craft it” as it’s available via traders

For respecs, the identical function is in shrines.


Skyshards’ baseline requirement is “explore the world to locate them”, this eliminates that baselines and there is no in-game comparable system that also eliminates that requirement through non-cash methods

If skyshards are allowed, then gear is allowed, then a PTS-template character for Live purchase is allowed, because like every who claim it isn’t P2W says “it’s nothing you can’t grind for”

so.
if i had not time to take all skyshards by all toons becose i work for real money - i mast be looser against palyer who didnot work hard for money and have much free time for game?
if i worker so i cannot save my time? i ALREADY take this skyshards. at the beta\prerelise\relise i take skyshards on my sorc. at morrowind i take on bear-warden. at summerset - i go to my argo wardentank - and this is boring. at my necro - it can begin angry me... and now i have so much time to play> i cant run AGAIN at all of this shards.

and some ppl have wifes, who needs time to...

If you do not play as much, you should not be rewarded as much as someone who plays every day

I say this as someone with a full time job, a girlfriend, and 6 max level toons

The entire gaming industry is on steep decline in quality and ethics, the LAST thing players need for people to cry how much they want to pay for quality of life in a game

Skyshards are a chore, that much I agree on. But these cash shop purchases exploit the failings of design in regards to alts. But instead of redesigning that system, they give cash only “solutions”

I don't believe: "I say this as someone with a full time job, a girlfriend, and 6 max level toons"

Either you have a job that you don't have to work very hard at, or/and you have a "girlfriend" who doesn't care that you spend no time or care on her, you don't have the time.

Of course there is always the possibility that you don't actually play the game. You're one of those lovely folks who think playing the game is simply running around and through things like a maniac to get things done. Or maybe you're one of those rare folks who doesn't need any sleep.

Sorry. I do not believe you.

40 hour work weeks in management, certainly not the hardest but it’s time consuming

Watching movies, playing games, and decidedly less digital entertainment with my girlfriend.

vTrial clears on multiple toons, though still working on the hardmodes beyond AA

Multiple houses decorated

The majority of motifs learned

5.6mil banked


Amazingly, part of being an adult is learning to manage your time and enjoy what you spend time on. I don’t dislike the basics of ESO’s experience. I don’t praise paid solutions to in-game problems like you and others are doing.

If someone scratches up my car, I don’t thank them for the opportunity to pay them to fix it.

Stop acting like they’re doing you a favor by putting up cash-only solutions for problems they are fully capable of solving for free. This company makes a ton of money, they can afford quality of life changes

From what I read though, those that vote p2w still can't explain why it's p2w... It's pay to skip not p2w.

...snipped...

People that say it's p2w either don't understand the game properly or don't word it properly. I'm fine with this being defined pay to skip but look at it any way you want it isn't p2w.

I've collected EVERY single skill points in the game with my main. I'm not doing it again. I'm not collecting more skyshards if the price isn't stupid. I've collected more than 1600 skyshards, I'm done...

And people that say it takes 40mins per zone are not doing it right. Slap jaikbreaker, fiord, 3 swift, all divines with a shield and steed mundus. Enjoy Flash Gordon-ing through Tamriel.

Now I have a build and I can do it but I don't want to anymore. I've picked up 1600 skyshards on 14 alts in 2 years
I'm done... Like I said, if the price isn't completely stupid, I'm buying.

What exactly do you not get here? You're paying to bypass requirements in a way that cannot be done in game, its P2W in the simplest terms. You pay to achieve something that is impossible to achieve through in-game means

If all it did was reveal locations on your map where all the skyshards are located, it wouldn't be P2W, because the baseline requirement would still be preserved. The same system could also be an in-game feature unlocked with gold.

Unless you're fully prepared to support legendary max CP gear sold for cash, instant max level toons for cash, vMA and perfected weapons for cash, trial skins for cash, titles for cash, then you've got no ground to stand on claiming this isn't P2W.


You can play stupid all you like, but there's no way in hell you could actually justify this as a QoL change made for anyone's benefit but ZOS' sales. By praising this, you praise skill lines being made into tedious grinds so that cash shop unlocks are the simpler way to go. You're encouraging collectable obtainment to be locked behind hours of mindless quests and RNG so the cash shop has more appeal. You're encouraging game studios to design problems with cash shop solutions.



For the last time It is P2W because it eliminates the most basic requirement of skyshard obtainment: Exploring the world, while providing no in-game comparable system of requirement negation. No other utility based crown purchase in the entirety of the game does this. Even the merchant assistant has in-game comparables wandering the zones, with less functions on the cash purchase too.

Had they made this same function available through in-game currencies or any cash-free methods at all, then it wouldn't be P2W, but they chose to give that annoying grind a cash-only "fix" which only serves to fill their pockets with people who don't care if a company sees them as nothing but sheep who will take any treatment and thank them for the opportunity to give more money for solutions that should be free in the first place

"What exactly do you not get here? You're paying to bypass requirements in a way that cannot be done in game, its P2W in the simplest terms. You pay to achieve something that is impossible to achieve through in-game means"

That's hilarious because you just quoted me on why people who call it p2w have a deep knowledge gap... you're proving me right?

Your problem which makes you oblivious to the matter is that you define more skill points as a win. What will you win in the game with more skill points than you get casually getting to level 50?

Casually getting a toon to 50 will net you about 100 skill points. With 100 skill points, you can do everything. You'll only be able to spec it for 1 thing. If I get more skill points, I don't need to respec. What do you seriously not get?

"If all it did was reveal locations on your map where all the skyshards are located, it wouldn't be P2W, because the baseline requirement would still be preserved. The same system could also be an in-game feature unlocked with gold."

Honestly a bad example because of add-ons. More examples to come which would make your point moot.

"Unless you're fully prepared to support legendary max CP gear sold for cash, instant max level toons for cash, vMA and perfected weapons for cash, trial skins for cash, titles for cash, then you've got no ground to stand on claiming this isn't P2W."

Again, you don't understand. You still don't understand that skill points =/= more powerful *if you spec it beforehand*. You parodying my explanation does not make you right. It either makes you a troll or shows a lack of knowledge and understanding. I'd honestly rather you be trolling me... Gear, Levels, CP, LEVELED SKILL LINES will make your toon instantly stronger. Getting more skill points won't. How can you discredit someone because they're not completely biased? So silly.

"You can play stupid all you like, but there's no way in hell you could actually justify this as a QoL change made for anyone's benefit but ZOS' sales. By praising this, you praise skill lines being made into tedious grinds so that cash shop unlocks are the simpler way to go. You're encouraging collectable obtainment to be locked behind hours of mindless quests and RNG so the cash shop has more appeal. You're encouraging game studios to design problems with cash shop solutions."

Where the heck did you see me praising this? WHERE? Where do you see that I'm pretending it won't bring them any revenue? I may not even be a customer. If they ridiculously pay-gate it, I'm gonna farm them. I'm not necessarily encouraging it. I've collected em on 1 toon and 30% on 14 toons.

You keep mentioning gold gear for cash, levels, collectibles obtainable from achievements when that was never in the discussion. You're bringing things that don't exist as arguments to support your position and all I see is that your position on this is based on fear of what might be. With the resistance they've met with this feature, they'll be careful. Skyshards is pretty much where I draw the line (psssst, I say this because I<ve said and could prove it to you that more skill points =/= more powerful character).

"For the last time It is P2W because it eliminates the most basic requirement of skyshard obtainment: Exploring the world, while providing no in-game comparable system of requirement negation. No other utility based crown purchase in the entirety of the game does this. Even the merchant assistant has in-game comparables wandering the zones, with less functions on the cash purchase too."

But you have to have done it once! You've scoured through Tamriel once and more, now you just want to play the freakin game with another class to see how it is, not RP across the world as a Breton stamblade-off-tank-warlock-shaman!

You can skip horse training which would make your toon faster in acquiring skill points but you can't get the skyshards right away? That's hypocritical and borderline masochistic. So you're ok to pay 60-120$ to upgrade your horse and go faster than mine (heck I ain't paying for this!" but not get the actual skyshards? Both don't make your toon stronger and both are very very useful.

"Had they made this same function available through in-game currencies or any cash-free methods at all, then it wouldn't be P2W, but they chose to give that annoying grind a cash-only "fix" which only serves to fill their pockets with people who don't care if a company sees them as nothing but sheep who will take any treatment and thank them for the opportunity to give more money for solutions that should be free in the first place"

Based on this, p2w is simply something you can only get by cash? Well you can get skyshards without paying but some homes are cash-only? Both skyshards and home don't make you win anything per se (duels, trials, achievements). I'm not being pedantic, I just find that everything else you've written before that is trying to prove it's p2w but then finish that it's p2w bcoz cash only.

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

I give up.

Those of you who want to believe that it's P2W go ahead and believe it. It won't change anything.

The rest of us tend not to have a knee-jerk reaction.

Frankly - if you're too poor or too cheap, that's not my issue.

I have money, I have time.

I'll buy.

Nothing in life is free, least of all success.

CleymenZero

No it's not P2W.

DenMoria wrote: »

I give up.

Those of you who want to believe that it's P2W go ahead and believe it. It won't change anything.

The rest of us tend not to have a knee-jerk reaction.

Frankly - if you're too poor or too cheap, that's not my issue.

I have money, I have time.

I'll buy.

Nothing in life is free, least of all success.

Funny cause your vote is for yes, it's p2w.

I have money but know the value of it. My taking part in this depends on the price.

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

CleymenZero wrote: »

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DenMoria wrote: »

I give up.

Those of you who want to believe that it's P2W go ahead and believe it. It won't change anything.

The rest of us tend not to have a knee-jerk reaction.

Frankly - if you're too poor or too cheap, that's not my issue.

I have money, I have time.

I'll buy.

Nothing in life is free, least of all success.

Funny cause your vote is for yes, it's p2w.

I have money but know the value of it. My taking part in this depends on the price.

I agree with you and, apparently, I voted wrong.

I don't even know why I bothered to vote or comment though (other than stirring the whole P2W thing, I guess). I won't be purchasing them anyway.

I play a couple of hours a day but don't really pay attention to it.

Druid40

Wait... I can win ESO if I collect every skyshard?

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

Druid40 wrote: »

Wait... I can win ESO if I collect every skyshard?

Goregrinder

Kel wrote: »

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Goregrinder wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Paazhahdrimaak wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Hopefully the other stuff will follow. Skill lines, exploration, mount training.......

Your kind are the problem here

You

Fusozay wrote: »

Paazhahdrimaak wrote: »

This is 100% P2W.

So a fresh character is gonna be able to have every skill point now?

really? quest, dangeon SP sold?

I have 10 characters to champ, farmed lots of SP on all, this is BS that they are accommodating to casuals and unskilled lazy players this much.

It's ironic that you have a problem with easily unlocking Skyshards on multiple characters, but have no problems with have Champion Points shared between all your toons without having to unlock them all over again per toon.

It's not ironic. Its Apples vs. Oranges. One of them is account wide for all the work you put into the game. One has you put a bunch of work in the game, will apparently be account wide, then you have to open your wallet and pay extra real life money.

Its sleazy. It should just work like CP does.

You don't HAVE to open your wallet lol....you just run to the skyshards and unlock them. You get to CHOOSE how to unlock them on new toons.

Getting Skyshards is not winning. CP 810 people get rekt in PVP daily. Skillpoints are not "winning" anything. So according to you, having the option to spend money on something for access to something in an online game automatically makes something pay to win?

Not at all what I said.

You asked if it was ironic in accordance to CP, and I pointed out that CP was automatically account wide, while Shards are account wide, just as much effort as CP, but only one has a monetary option.

For your idea to be ironic, you'd have to also be able to pay for CP.

See the difference? (I doubt you do...you're more interested in arguing)

And if they charged to unlock CP's per toon in addition to letting people re-farm them all...would that be "Pay To Win"?

CP has a direct correlation with power and stats, so yes, that would be pay to win. Another reason why you shouldn't be comparing them...

And considering we are getting CP's unlocked on all toons for "free", would this be a "Free-To-Win" service? Also, how do new players who just hit level 50 on a brand new account compete in CP PVP or in Vet Dungeons compete against CP 810 toons? And what is ZOS going to do about giving one group of players a distinct advantage to win over another group of players?

Sounds pretty unfair that players can just pay with their time to automatically win.

See, I knew you are just here to argue.

What you're saying doesn't even make sense, nor does it address what I said.

Its still going to cost you time to unlock shards. You're not skipping that part. With shards, it's going to cost you time AND money. That's why what you're saying has no relevance to what I said...you are just trying to argue by talking in circles.


Good luck with that...😆😆

Time *OR* Money. You pick which one you want to spend unlocking Skyshards. Also....how many players play the game currently that spent $0.00 dollars or less?

No..you don't. You dont get to buy shards unless you have the achievement unlocked in game. YOU DO NOT GET TO JUST BUY THEM. You still have to spend your time BEFORE you spend your money.

See how you're wrong now?

I am talking about a new character after you have unlocked shards from one zone on a main. On the new character you can either manually run around and waste your time unlocking them, OR you can hit up the crown store and unlock them.

Either way you aren't "winning" anything, you are skipping TIME. You aren't buying the unlocks off the crown store, then suddenly entering BG's and going 50-0 every game......skill points don't have any bearing on combat other than how many abilities you can have on your bars. But once you have two bars full of spells, you could have 1,200 skill points and it won't help you any.

Your implying that if someone unlocks the shards from the crown store, they have a tactical advantage over someone who runs around on a mount collecting them.....that's the most ridiculous thing I've read.

Mathius_Mordred

No it's not P2W.

I'm a bit late to this one. Of course, it isn't P2W. I think many who think it is are having a bit of a slippery slope moment, and feel this is just the start. Well it may be, it may not, we will have to wait and see, but for now we are judging this specific example of a P4C (Pay for Convenience) item, you gain nothing except some hours of your life back that you would have wasted repeating the same boring routine on as many alts as you may have. Definitely not even close to P2W.

Thorvik_Tyrson

Other.

I define that as pay to advance faster, and not pay to win. You can get the same thing in game if you want to spend the time and effort to get it. So by my definition that is pay to advance faster, just like I define the XP bonus that you get from ESO+ as pay to advance faster.

Jhalin

Yes it's P2W.

@DenMoria

Skill lines are going to come to the Crown Store same as buying skill points, as said in their own livestream when they see how far they can take advantage of those ignorant or lazy enough to praise paid advancement. This is only the first in a line of choices that punish players who won’t spend money with problems and annoyances that can only be solved by throwing cash at it

CleymenZero

No it's not P2W.

Druid40 wrote: »

Wait... I can win ESO if I collect every skyshard?

Yes... so thinks 30% on the forum users.... You don't need skills, gear or leveling skill lines. The 100 or so skill points is definitely not enough to make a well-rounded build also. You being able to put points into skills you don't have enough place to put em in your bar is going to make you win. You just want the skill for the occasionnal pvp session on this toon but it's p2w even if you can't slot it.

Having points in crafting is also p2w.

CleymenZero

No it's not P2W.

Jhalin wrote: »

@DenMoria

Skill lines are going to come to the Crown Store same as buying skill points, as said in their own livestream when they see how far they can take advantage of those ignorant or lazy enough to praise paid advancement. This is only the first in a line of choices that punish players who won’t spend money with problems and annoyances that can only be solved by throwing cash at it

Technically, they said the skill lines were on the table. They're looking at it. I'm sure it will come but panicking and throwing the skyshards into it and saying everybody that say it's not p2w are glorifying it is absurd.

I'm just waiting for the pricing on this. Maybe come May 20th, I'll stand with you laughing at the dummies buying this ridiculously priced p2skip feature. We'll be laughing and sort of pissed but for different reasons.

Goregrinder

CleymenZero wrote: »

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Druid40 wrote: »

Wait... I can win ESO if I collect every skyshard?

Yes... so thinks 30% on the forum users.... You don't need skills, gear or leveling skill lines. The 100 or so skill points is definitely not enough to make a well-rounded build also. You being able to put points into skills you don't have enough place to put em in your bar is going to make you win. You just want the skill for the occasionnal pvp session on this toon but it's p2w even if you can't slot it.

Having points in crafting is also p2w.

And collecting every mount also means you will win because....because pay 2 win....and also buying event tickets from the crown store is also pay to win....and also buying the base game for $10...that's clearly pay to win since you can't even PVP without having the game, so everyone that bought the base game is a pay to win monster.

CleymenZero

No it's not P2W.

Goregrinder wrote: »

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CleymenZero wrote: »

Druid40 wrote: »

Wait... I can win ESO if I collect every skyshard?

Yes... so thinks 30% on the forum users.... You don't need skills, gear or leveling skill lines. The 100 or so skill points is definitely not enough to make a well-rounded build also. You being able to put points into skills you don't have enough place to put em in your bar is going to make you win. You just want the skill for the occasionnal pvp session on this toon but it's p2w even if you can't slot it.

Having points in crafting is also p2w.

And collecting every mount also means you will win because....because pay 2 win....and also buying event tickets from the crown store is also pay to win....and also buying the base game for $10...that's clearly pay to win since you can't even PVP without having the game, so everyone that bought the base game is a pay to win monster.

Well... didn't mention this because I thought it was obvious....