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Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?
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ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No it's not P2W.
If there's an advantage that can only be obtained by paying, it's pay to win. Skyshards are available to anyone, so there's no real advantage beyond making it fast and easy, but you won't win because of it. Having 400 skill points vs having 80 will not make you stronger at all. It won't help you survive more or do more damage or tank better. After your build is done, there's nothing more skill points do for you. Not pay to win. This game is safe from p2w.2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.Facefister wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
Then give me my item chest at the beginning of the dungeon. I am farming those for years, no need to farm it again with my alts.
if you have completed it once allready and earned that achievement?
then go right ahead, as long as you allready completed it before then theres nothing wrong with that.
Further proof these people don’t care about ruining the game
How is it ruining the game to not force people to grind out achievements they have already completed on a previous character?
“If you ran this dungeon once you should be able to just open chests until you get what you want, no combat required”
How do YOU not see how that’s bad for the game
I know I for one don’t want casino slots to be a replacement for gameplay
Achievements can be account bound, lorebook and skyshards LOCATIONS should be accountwide. Under no circumstances is it a good idea to remove gameplay from progression, which is what this change does0 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.Yes. It is pay2win. Say what you want, but you are buying power on a non-leveled character with crowns, that's pay to win, whether you did it on another character or not.
It's also insulting to every player that has done the work to open shards and skill lines.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC4 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.pay to win is when you pay real life money for armor and weapons that cannot be found ingame and they are overpowered and make it so you survive forerever or kill everyone with them, and you only got those things by paying real life money.
acjievements and skyshards are nothing of the sort, and niether is selling crowns for gold.0 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other.So according to some of the arguments I'm reading in this thread, I have to conclude that the benefits of doubled bank space, doubled inventory space, and an unlocked craft bag which come with being an ESO+ subscriber are all P2W and therefore bad. In fact, they're far worse than XP scrolls, crafting research scrolls, riding lesson scrolls, and skyshard SP scrolls, because (1) there's absolutely no way to get that doubled bank space, doubled inventory space, and unlocked craft bag within the game other than to pay for an ESO+ account; and (2) an ESO+ account isn't a one-time purchase like those scrolls are, but is a recurring monthly "purchase" or rental.
I'm not saying ESO+ is bad and should go away. I don't have it, but someday I might want to get it.
And you can't convince me that the benefits of ESO+ aren't "advantages," because the definition of P2W that was posted did not specify that the advantage had to be a specific type of advantage, such as an advantage in PvP contests. Having to port back home in the middle of a dungeon or delve to try to free up space by selling or depositing loot, or stowing it in storage chests, or do the logout-login-logout-login ritual of trying to shuffle it off to a mule character, and then having to start back at the beginning of the dungeon or delve, is a clear disadvantage, and having twice as much space plus an infinite crafting bag is a clear advantage.
For that matter, the banker and merchant assistants must surely qualify as P2W, too.
So what I'm getting out of this thread is that ESO is already P2W, probably has been all along, and that whether you think this is a good thing or a bad thing depends on which P2W portions you're currently taking advantage of and which planned P2W additions you think is offensive because it's just a "cash grab."I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!4 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No it's not P2W.Yes. It is pay2win. Say what you want, but you are buying power on a non-leveled character with crowns, that's pay to win, whether you did it on another character or not.
It's also insulting to every player that has done the work to open shards and skill lines.
Not insulting to me and I have 16 leveled up characters between two accounts and 4 servers. Just saying... They are in a hurry, but they aren't stronger than me(at least not just because of SP), so it's not pay to *win*. They paid, yes, but who says they win? Nah... For all I care, they should sell lorebooks packs too. The more.money they make, the happier they are, the longer the game lives, the happier I am, and no one is getting any unfair advantage because their wallets are too heavy.1 -
Merenwen_812✭✭✭Other.Ok I cast my vote as Other. As I can see where some would say yes and some would say no. I do believe it is in the eye of the beholder at this point. If this information is right, there are 143 SP to be gotten from shards including all DLCs and Chapters.
Now you can only buy it for an alt if at least one other character on your account has unlocked it.
To me, this is not pay to win. To apply said skill points, you still need to level that skill line to unlock it. It's not automatically unlocked to where you can place all 143 skill points immediately. There is no true advantage as one simply has skill points that can't be used as of yet. It is not like I paid for an item that will up both my DPS and defense by 20% so I can pound on the player who can not afford to buy said buff.
If you could buy all those skill points AND it unlocked the lines so you could apply them right away, that I would consider pay to win. However, being that you still need to do the work to apply them I don't see it as a true advantage.
Adding: Pay for convivence, pay to be lazy, pay to not grind but not pay to win. IMO it is a grind but not that hard the only place I would ever consider buying shards from (which I can't see me doing as I have other things I'd rather buy) is cyrodill because I would not go through that again as I am a PVP hater :P
Edited by Merenwen_812 on March 28, 2019 9:20PM1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.I didn't realize the skill points (or werewolf, or vampire, or whatever) available in the crown store have some magical properties that don't come with the one's you get by playing the game. Huh. They must've left that out of the announcement.
Again:
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
That is a very standard definition of PtW and it specifically states that whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.
The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.
In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.
In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.
In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.
"Gameplay Advantage" would mean something the other, non-paying player -cannot- get on their own that has an effect on gameplay.
Not something they can get on their own in an reasonable frame of time, since then they -can- get the same thing with a reasonable amount of time, making it not an advantage, just a shortcut.
And since everyone can get skill points from skyshards easily enough on their own by spending some time grabbing them specifically... (or more likely, picking them up en passant while questing anyhow)
Now... please show us all here how you can gain a gameplay advantage through buying a skyshard skillpoint unlock over a player who did not pay, and just spent the time grabbing them on their own.
Really, this is no worse then riding lessons or vampire/werewolf crown store unlocks.
And just as well, I consider any who spends their money on this a fool for doing so. Grab them for free by having a bit of patience, and spend the crowns on cute outfits instead, i say!
But... I do not really mind ZOS fleecing people for their impatience, so...4 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭Additionally we don't know the pricing yet and as much as I love ZOS they've never really understood the finer points of pricing items. It'll probably cost so much most folks will just do the grind again.
How is pricing relevant to this poll?
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws0 -
dbgager✭✭✭No it's not P2W.There is no such thing as a cash grab. Its a dumb phrase people usethat has no real logical meaning. Businesses make money that's why they exist. Cash grab is trying to put a negative connotation on the function of doing just that. Makes no realsense.1
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Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
and that is FINE. but it should NOT be monetized. it should just be unlocked in game, optionally. earned. its the fact that they are CHARGING for it that is a problemdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.
Pricing determines how accessible it is. If it's very low priced and very accessible it could be considered less of a barrier to pay to win.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes it's P2W.
On point, noone would actually complain about it if you would tie this to a quest chain or to another part of the game, but monetizing it what makes it wrong.Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
and that is FINE. but it should NOT be monetized. it should just be unlocked in game, optionally. earned. its the fact that they are CHARGING for it that is a problem1 -
dbgager✭✭✭No it's not P2W.Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
and that is FINE. but it should NOT be monetized. it should just be unlocked in game, optionally. earned. its the fact that they are CHARGING for it that is a problem
WHy exactly should it be free...Timesavers are always pay items in almost all MMOs. You cannot blame them for wanting to make money. It helpsthempaythererent and feed there children.2 -
SpankinDamob✭✭✭Other.Personally don’t care. Doubt I’d use it cause going around doing delves, public dungeons, collecting skyshards is how I level my characters usually. The thing that bothers me is they seem to be putting to many things in the crown store to get. I can see it if you don’t have a subscription, but if someone has been subscribed for a period of time it should be an option to buy for gold.0
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Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭No it's not P2W.No. Pay-to-win requires the item in question to be impossible (or extraordinarily difficult) to acquire in-game. This is just convenience.1 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes it's P2W.
Why it shouldn't? We're paying for DLCs, we're paying for Chapters, we're paying for tons of other stuff. Monetizing QoL is predatory. Why sorting your characters to be free? Why not charge 2k crowns for it?Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
and that is FINE. but it should NOT be monetized. it should just be unlocked in game, optionally. earned. its the fact that they are CHARGING for it that is a problem
WHy exactly should it be free...Timesavers are always pay items in almost all MMOs. You cannot blame them for wanting to make money. It helpsthempaythererent and feed there children.SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »No. Pay-to-win requires the item in question to be impossible (or extraordinarily difficult) to acquire in-game. This is just convenience.
A chest with loot at the beginning of your dungeon/trial is alos convenient.Edited by Facefister on March 28, 2019 9:37PM0 -
AlienSlof✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No it's not P2W.It is convenience and will likely hellishly expensive, but really, no different than buying riding lessons. Not something I will ever blow crowns on, as I actually enjoy exploring with a new alt - it also helps me to learn that class if it's a new one.RIP Atherton, my beautiful little gentle friend. I will miss you forever. Without you I am a hollow shell.3 -
dbgager✭✭✭No it's not P2W.Facefister wrote: »
Why it shouldn't? We're paying for DLCs, we're paying for Chapters, we're paying for tons of other stuff. Monetizing QoL is predatory. Why sorting your characters to be free? Why not charge 2k crowns for it?Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
and that is FINE. but it should NOT be monetized. it should just be unlocked in game, optionally. earned. its the fact that they are CHARGING for it that is a problem
WHy exactly should it be free...Timesavers are always pay items in almost all MMOs. You cannot blame them for wanting to make money. It helpsthempaythererent and feed there children.
Seriously ..Predatory. Al DLC is free by the way. Al you have to do Is sub. YOu want absolutely everything to be free. How do you expect the game to even survive without money.1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.pay to win is when you pay real life money for armor and weapons that cannot be found ingame
I don't buy that simple of an explanation. Otherwise I'd expect everyone to be ok with them selling items you can get in game like MA weapons as long as you've beat MA once? Or a trial, etc. Yet, I have a feeling people would freak out.
I guess everyone has their own version of pay to win, but IMO it's buying power. You are buying power on a character that has not earned it. You aren't buying cosmetics. At this point, why even bother having XP in the game? Just sell people level 50 characters, save them the few hours of grinding on xp scrolls that it takes to power up a character to 50 that will get all their shared CP. Now we are taking away any work needing done for skyshards and giving everyone that did it once a chance to unlock a hundred-ish skill points as soon as they roll a character. They are looking at other skill lines like mage guild as well?
So it sounds crazy to me that you could go into lowbie pvp with every skill you've opened paid for, max CP, and soon maybe have every guild line unlocked, paid for and leveled as well? That sounds pretty much like someone just paid to win with that character. I don't think P2W has to only be about buying a weapon that does a billion damage that you can only get in a crown store - the line isn't that far. To me, ZoS has already been dancing on and tip toeing over the line to see how much they can get away with and between the things they are adding in expansions you have to buy, and now selling power ups, they are pretty much dancing all the way on the other side of the line and every one is just saying "the line is right there behind them, they aren't that far over it, don't worry about it."
-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC2 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes it's P2W.Yes, monetizing QoL stuff, which can be easily patched in, is predatory. I don't want anything for free, I've bought every chapter and I am ESO+ member for 3 years straight now. Not to mention the crown purchases I've done over the years. And DLCs are not free, you're paying a sub for it.
Monetizing every nook and cranny is wrong, a slippery slope and will ultimately lead to worse stuff once you and the likes of you are done eating it up.6 -
dbgager✭✭✭No it's not P2W.Personally I see ways for them to make money as good for the health of the gameIfyou want to have this game enjoy then money is what will make that possible. Many MMOs have goneoutof business in the past. Its a good thing to me. Anything that makes them money means I will have more of the game to enjoy in the futureEdited by dbgager on March 28, 2019 9:46PM2
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Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
and that is FINE. but it should NOT be monetized. it should just be unlocked in game, optionally. earned. its the fact that they are CHARGING for it that is a problem
WHy exactly should it be free...Timesavers are always pay items in almost all MMOs. You cannot blame them for wanting to make money. It helpsthempaythererent and feed there children.
timesavers is monetized in FREE TO PLAY GAMES. this game charges for base game. for chapters. for DLC's. for cosmetics. if they weren't already monetizing so much already it wouldn't be that big of a point of contention. its not like they are not getting any money out of their players. crown only houses. crown only motifs. a plethora of crown only cosmetics.
i don't blame them for wanting to make some money, but there is such thing as getting TOO greedy.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***4 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes it's P2W.Facefister wrote: »
Why it shouldn't? We're paying for DLCs, we're paying for Chapters, we're paying for tons of other stuff. Monetizing QoL is predatory. Why sorting your characters to be free? Why not charge 2k crowns for it?Facefister wrote: »
if you dont want to do it then not forced to.
but now the rest of us that have been doing it for YEARS on the same cave and same old same old, we want a choice to not be forced into doing it, we want a way to save time.
some of us dont have the time to repeat this every SINGLE time is a new class or we want a new character.
and that is FINE. but it should NOT be monetized. it should just be unlocked in game, optionally. earned. its the fact that they are CHARGING for it that is a problem
WHy exactly should it be free...Timesavers are always pay items in almost all MMOs. You cannot blame them for wanting to make money. It helpsthempaythererent and feed there children.
Seriously ..Predatory. Al DLC is free by the way. Al you have to do Is sub. YOu want absolutely everything to be free. How do you expect the game to even survive without money.
sigh, no, we are not asking for everything for free. subscription? is NOT free. you are PAYING for those DLC's one way or another and THAT IS FINE. but as i said. there is such thing as going to far. litteraly i'm playing Neverwinter right now along with ESO, a game notorious for monetizing everything and ESO is about reaching that same point. except neverwinter doesn't charge me for content updates in any way, and subscription is not only cheaper, but also doesn't hide behind it things like bag space, decoration limits, etc.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other.Time most certainly is an advantage. It's even specifically listed as an advantage in the definition for P2W which you quoted back to me without internalizing. It's that part in bold which I repeated three times again immediately after the full definition.
The definition of pay-to-win that you are using appears to be designed to be overly broad by whomever wrote it.
You can't have a definition of pay to win without determining in that, in fact, there is winning happening. That definition just talks about advantage, and then makes no effort to balance that against the payment. Mere advantage does not confer a win.
Do I think that ZOS should be doing this? Not really. Is it pay to win? Not really.4 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭
Pricing determines how accessible it is. If it's very low priced and very accessible it could be considered less of a barrier to pay to win.
Whatever the price is, the level of accessibility will not be the same for everyone. Price has no bearing on whether something is pay to win or not.
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws2 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No it's not P2W.
True enough.
Pricing determines how accessible it is. If it's very low priced and very accessible it could be considered less of a barrier to pay to win.
Whatever the price is, the level of accessibility will not be the same for everyone. Price has no bearing on whether something is pay to win or not.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other.
Pricing determines how accessible it is. If it's very low priced and very accessible it could be considered less of a barrier to pay to win.
Whatever the price is, the level of accessibility will not be the same for everyone. Price has no bearing on whether something is pay to win or not.
Maybe, but at what price for what win does it no longer matter?0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes it's P2W.At this point, it doesn't matter whether it's P2W or not. There is a problem about leveling another character, in this case it's the need of farming a tremendous amount of Skyshards. Instead of adressing this problem with ingame elements, ZoS decided to slap a "package" on their store. A band aid which costs money.
6
