Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Ogou

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Ogou To answer your question. Dunmer and Argonians have roots in stealth gameplay just like Bosmer do, even though stealth is not as important to their identity as it is for Bosmer.
If ZOS' goals was to increase diversity and make more races viable for more roles, then they failed in regards to stealth as now only Khajiit can really be considered. The lore would have had room for two more stealth races.
To address your balance concern, Argonians are in need of a rebalance either way and mathematically underperforming. You could add 3m of stealth radius to them and still be within the 6.5 set piece boni no problem. Also, it should be considered that the 3m stealth radius should not be counted as a whole set bonus as it does not affect combat balance in any way, it just adds flavour. DPS parses are unaffected and they would not become more oppressive in PvP because of it either. Giving them a stealth bonus would set them apart from other tank races and give them a unique flavor as well. At worst Argonians in PvP would start using invisibility potions, but that won't make them broken because their potion passive already allows them to reset fights in their favor and invisibility potions are a cancelation of the fight that Khajiit can already obtain without encountering balance issues.
About Dunmer, Dunmer have nothing that sets them apart from Orcs and Altmer apart from their fire resistance and their dual nature. They are slightly less optimal than both as each of the other races has one more combat related passive than them, Orcs even have two. Adding stealth to them would not be as much of a concern, especially if Orcs gain detection for free with no sacrifice as was proposed earlier. What this request boils down to is increasing the item set standard to 7 set boni for some races without affecting the combat balance or power balance among the alliances. At the end of the day, EP and AD would have 2 stealth races each and DC would have an anti-stealth race to counter them.

I think when ZOS said they wanted to make more races viable for more roles they were talking specifically about damage, healing and tanking. I don't think balancing stealth was ever something they actually considered.

True, stealth radius is not a full set bonus as far as overall balance is concerned but the other races already have other "flavor" passives that represent the races a lot better (although, I agree, Argonians could definitely use the buff).

At the end of the day. This change would require a lot of work from ZOS for something that is, in the grand scheme of things, not that important.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

BlueRaven

Taloros wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Oh! Maybe we have been approaching this all wrong. Maybe we should make some nerf "Hunter's Eye" threads, saying it's too strong in PvP and suggest putting them back to the old passive as a solution.

Well, can't hurt. See you over here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/482394/bomser-op-in-ic-nerf-hunters-eye/p1?new=1

I meant what I said as a joke. As in "Well-they-only-listen-to-PvP-nerf-threads-anyway" type commentary. I thought the /sarcasm was implied...

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Actually I am surprised the thread has gotten this far. I am used to the Blizzard forums where threads have a hard cap of about 21 or so pages. Technically speaking, can threads go infinitely long on these boards?

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Actually I am surprised the thread has gotten this far. I am used to the Blizzard forums where threads have a hard cap of about 21 or so pages. Technically speaking, can threads go infinitely long on these boards?

See you at a thousand!

BlueRaven

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Actually I am surprised the thread has gotten this far. I am used to the Blizzard forums where threads have a hard cap of about 21 or so pages. Technically speaking, can threads go infinitely long on these boards?

See you at a thousand!

Don't take this the wrong way, I think you are a great person who I would love to meet. But I really hope I don't see you at 1000 pages as I have no intention of posting that much longer, because I am becoming tired of this game and topic.

These constant/consistent changes to balance PvP at the expense of PvE and the half hearted "Everything is still within the lore" self aggrandizements that they do is really wearing thin.

I am an officer in a trading guild and a social guild, I am participating enough to honorably hold those positions. A while back I even joined a young guild filled with inexperienced players as form of game guru. (They did not know how WW bites worked and did not know anything about a lux vendor, for example.) I run contests and help new players, but more and more my heart is not in it. I love(loved?) the ES games and although I never really researched the lore that much, I was happy it was there and that they consistently relied on it. It created a the idea of a full and strong depth to what I was playing.

And really since these race changes, my love for the series is falling apart. It just feels like all scrim work now. Like you were walking down a fantastically beautiful city street only to have one of the facades fall down, forever breaking the illusion. I tried to forget about ESO for a bit and I played Skyrim. But the moment I thought about ESO the whole world that I loved felt very shallow.

Right now I feel like I am just treading water until I can find a different game.

TokenIntellect

Part of what's frustrating is that it's such an easy fix. Five minutes of work from the devs, two minutes on the forum to let everyone know and then this thread can close.

With so many things plaguing ESO right now that ZOS seems to be flat out ignoring (have they rushed to fix anything other than Pummeling Goliath for the PVPers?) it certainly seems like it's so far down the list that we'll certainly hit 100 pages if not the vaunted 1000. ...well, unless ZOS finally decides to lock the thread because they're tired of people wanting Bosmers to have some resemblance to TES Bosmers of lore.

And just to keep it on topic: Hey ZOS! Your race balancing changes have had a detrimental impact on both PVE and PVP content. Any chance of getting some of those "significant changes coming for the ability and other related mechanics?" Is Monday too soon?

MartiniDaniels

TokenIntellect wrote: »

Part of what's frustrating is that it's such an easy fix. Five minutes of work from the devs, two minutes on the forum to let everyone know and then this thread can close.

With so many things plaguing ESO right now that ZOS seems to be flat out ignoring (have they rushed to fix anything other than Pummeling Goliath for the PVPers?) it certainly seems like it's so far down the list that we'll certainly hit 100 pages if not the vaunted 1000. ...well, unless ZOS finally decides to lock the thread because they're tired of people wanting Bosmers to have some resemblance to TES Bosmers of lore.

And just to keep it on topic: Hey ZOS! Your race balancing changes have had a detrimental impact on both PVE and PVP content. Any chance of getting some of those "significant changes coming for the ability and other related mechanics?" Is Monday too soon?

I think they will fix this when (if) they have good occasion for this, as part of something bigger. But making it as separate change will lead to 10 another open letters on next day.. so I think we may only hope for something like re-balance of stealth, or re-balance of CP, and under those circumstances ZOS can quietly adjust racial passives as part of the global changes and fix this lore breach.

Ratzkifal

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

TokenIntellect wrote: »

Part of what's frustrating is that it's such an easy fix. Five minutes of work from the devs, two minutes on the forum to let everyone know and then this thread can close.

With so many things plaguing ESO right now that ZOS seems to be flat out ignoring (have they rushed to fix anything other than Pummeling Goliath for the PVPers?) it certainly seems like it's so far down the list that we'll certainly hit 100 pages if not the vaunted 1000. ...well, unless ZOS finally decides to lock the thread because they're tired of people wanting Bosmers to have some resemblance to TES Bosmers of lore.

And just to keep it on topic: Hey ZOS! Your race balancing changes have had a detrimental impact on both PVE and PVP content. Any chance of getting some of those "significant changes coming for the ability and other related mechanics?" Is Monday too soon?

I think they will fix this when (if) they have good occasion for this, as part of something bigger. But making it as separate change will lead to 10 another open letters on next day.. so I think we may only hope for something like re-balance of stealth, or re-balance of CP, and under those circumstances ZOS can quietly adjust racial passives as part of the global changes and fix this lore breach.

I think you are right and that is really frustrating for me. Not that I couldn't stand other people being right But it means that ZOS is okay with leaving things in a broken state for as long as there is no higher purpose behind it. They said they would fix racials. They did (according to themselves) and the next time they'll look at racials again will be in a few years it seems. Despite there being reasons to look at it again right now, even if it's just for 2 seconds.

thegreatme

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think you are right and that is really frustrating for me. Not that I couldn't stand other people being right But it means that ZOS is okay with leaving things in a broken state for as long as there is no higher purpose behind it. They said they would fix racials. They did (according to themselves) and the next time they'll look at racials again will be in a few years it seems. Despite there being reasons to look at it again right now, even if it's just for 2 seconds.

I mean considering the Big Gripe right now is "you canceled an event over a queue that's been broken for five years instead of fixing it before the event?!", ZoS isn't exactly known for timely fixes...

And I'm not sure that's even ZoS, specifically. I think its just the World of Convenience and Big Corporate that we live in becoming the standard practice instead of the unsuccessful exception that used to be laughed at.

I'm not really convinced ZoS doesn't know its broken. I'm not convinced nobody at ZoS wants to fix it either. I just think whoever calls the shots doesn't deem it priority enough to see it done because its not monetarily expedient.

"Niche" playstyles and new fixes to old problems people have learned to tolerate don't sell product. New content does. So...

thegreatme

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Sign me up to help

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

These constant/consistent changes to balance PvP at the expense of PvE and the half hearted "Everything is still within the lore" self aggrandizements that they do is really wearing thin.

And yet, look at what all of this has done for PvP. Lag is getting worse, people are saving skill points on Hunter's Eye, PvPers are quitting faster than Bosmer players ever have, and they are cancelling some of their favorite events because they would rather work on new content and crown store goodies than fix the chronic and persistent gameplay problems.

Everything is on a downward spiral, not just the inept racial changes.

BlueRaven

Work in progress.

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Actually I am surprised the thread has gotten this far. I am used to the Blizzard forums where threads have a hard cap of about 21 or so pages. Technically speaking, can threads go infinitely long on these boards?

See you at a thousand!

Don't take this the wrong way, I think you are a great person who I would love to meet. But I really hope I don't see you at 1000 pages as I have no intention of posting that much longer, because I am becoming tired of this game and topic.

These constant/consistent changes to balance PvP at the expense of PvE and the half hearted "Everything is still within the lore" self aggrandizements that they do is really wearing thin.

I am an officer in a trading guild and a social guild, I am participating enough to honorably hold those positions. A while back I even joined a young guild filled with inexperienced players as form of game guru. (They did not know how WW bites worked and did not know anything about a lux vendor, for example.) I run contests and help new players, but more and more my heart is not in it. I love(loved?) the ES games and although I never really researched the lore that much, I was happy it was there and that they consistently relied on it. It created a the idea of a full and strong depth to what I was playing.

And really since these race changes, my love for the series is falling apart. It just feels like all scrim work now. Like you were walking down a fantastically beautiful city street only to have one of the facades fall down, forever breaking the illusion. I tried to forget about ESO for a bit and I played Skyrim. But the moment I thought about ESO the whole world that I loved felt very shallow.

Right now I feel like I am just treading water until I can find a different game.

I was kind of joking. My own enjoyment is severely challenged, so I get where you're coming from. All of my 50+ characters are Bosmer. I play them as stealthy, which means I have to use substandard sets instead of the end-game sets people seem to expect high level chars to have. My subscription has lapsed now, and my wallet is closed. Until this is fixed, I will play now and again for free, and come here to complain. Page 100, page 1000, page 1000000 I don't care. I said I will never accept this garbage change, and that's what I am going to do.

Also, I like your scroll. Very apt.

thegreatme

BlueRaven wrote: »

Work in progress.

Oh are we doing memes already? I got one


(if you don't get it, go watch Aggretsuko)

Taloros

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Can and will! :-)

I'm seriously puzzled as to how that other thread is taken, uhm, seriously by some. Say anything pvp related, and some people will take the opposite stance, no matter what.

Ratzkifal

I made one as well. Hope it's familly friendly enough for the forums. They have a softer rating than the actual game after all. We should save the rest for page 100 though.

Kalle_Demos

Jaraal wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Does this thread really have over 2600 entries for such a trifle? Oh geez. Just give em the passive or whatever they are asking for.

Certainly not trifling to the hundreds of thousands of players who started the game with the intent of playing stealthy wood elf characters, as they had in the other TES games. Or to those who leveled all the guilds and skill trees to become proficient thieves and have played that way for almost five years. And then to have your playstyle taken away and told, "Here, have this useless passive that never works in PvE and is suspect in PvP.... have fun!"

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

This is not a small issue as some trolls would like to suggest. It's an entire gameplay style that has existed in this series for years. Elder Scrolls Online is now, after five years, the only modern Elder Scrolls game without a substantive Bosmer stealth mechanic in contrast to all lore and gameplay in recent years.

ESO provides an entire array of optional gameplay styles, modes, choices, etc. Not everyone PVPs, Quests, dives into Dungeons or follows the rigid DPS/Tank/Heal system. Players have the option to completely ignore all of that and it is a good thing. ESO is a different animal than the ES single player games that allow for greater player choice but ESO still managed to accommodate a large swath of players used to a different setting.

The Sundering of Bosmer Stealth play completely destroys a style of play that many ES players have enjoyed for years. And why? We have yet to receive a comprehensive explanation as to why this was in any way necessary or in line (they weren't) with ZOS' goals regarding Racial Balance.

Uryel

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And yes, they could code it back in in no time at all, but they would rather ignore us and wait for us to go away. But 2600 posts seems to indicate that's not going to happen any time soon.

We are already at 87 pages and close to hitting page 88. Our chances of getting an answer at 100 pages are low, so let's already start thinking of a Bosmer stealth themed party at page 100. If ZOS doesn't give us a celebration, we have to make our own after all!

@Taloros You think you can make/find more memes like that for our 100th page celebration? Gotta express our need for stealth artistically

Actually I am surprised the thread has gotten this far. I am used to the Blizzard forums where threads have a hard cap of about 21 or so pages. Technically speaking, can threads go infinitely long on these boards?

See you at a thousand!

Don't take this the wrong way, I think you are a great person who I would love to meet. But I really hope I don't see you at 1000 pages as I have no intention of posting that much longer, because I am becoming tired of this game and topic.

These constant/consistent changes to balance PvP at the expense of PvE and the half hearted "Everything is still within the lore" self aggrandizements that they do is really wearing thin.

I am an officer in a trading guild and a social guild, I am participating enough to honorably hold those positions. A while back I even joined a young guild filled with inexperienced players as form of game guru. (They did not know how WW bites worked and did not know anything about a lux vendor, for example.) I run contests and help new players, but more and more my heart is not in it. I love(loved?) the ES games and although I never really researched the lore that much, I was happy it was there and that they consistently relied on it. It created a the idea of a full and strong depth to what I was playing.

And really since these race changes, my love for the series is falling apart. It just feels like all scrim work now. Like you were walking down a fantastically beautiful city street only to have one of the facades fall down, forever breaking the illusion. I tried to forget about ESO for a bit and I played Skyrim. But the moment I thought about ESO the whole world that I loved felt very shallow.

Right now I feel like I am just treading water until I can find a different game.

I was kind of joking. My own enjoyment is severely challenged, so I get where you're coming from. All of my 50+ characters are Bosmer. I play them as stealthy, which means I have to use substandard sets instead of the end-game sets people seem to expect high level chars to have. My subscription has lapsed now, and my wallet is closed. Until this is fixed, I will play now and again for free, and come here to complain. Page 100, page 1000, page 1000000 I don't care. I said I will never accept this garbage change, and that's what I am going to do.

Also, I like your scroll. Very apt.

Same here, fellows. The racial "balance" was a hard hit, the "Nightblade top assassination skill becomes a tanking one" was silly AF, the Rimmen necropolis public dungeon being completely bare made me realise how lazy ZOS had become (or had they always been ?), and the constant influx of new bugs that break things that had been functioning for years, the lack of communication about ongoing issues such as the stam necromancers being extremly bugged made me angry. And now they "fixed" some PvP issue with the Goliath form by nerfing one hand and shield ?! What kind of f*cked up logic is that ?

If their goal is to reduce their customer base to solve the server issue by itself, they're doing a good job. I'd even say they are killing it.

I get my fill of stealth gameplay by playing Banshee in Warframe. She makes every gunshot entirely silent, she has a "Fus ro dah" kind of ability, so I can remain undetected while I snipe enemies from afar, push interlopers off cliffs, and run like hell when I'm discovered because she's weak AF. And I'm not spending a dime on ESO anymore, not until they at least fix the clusterf*ck of bugs they introduced with Elsweyr. I can live without my stealth if I must, it's annoying AF but my character is still amazing. However, I won't pay folks who are too lazy to itemise a public dungeon or make their latest class, one of the top selling points of their last installment, functional instead of bug-ridden.

OsManiaC

Just think of it, you are a veteran elder scrolls player or the modern one with oblivion and skyrim not matters, you hate mmorpgs, but you want to give a try to ESO - just Single player content- ...

And you choose bosmer because you were a woodelf in all your previous games

HAHA GET REKT

Jaraal

Uryel wrote: »

And now they "fixed" some PvP issue with the Goliath form by nerfing one hand and shield ?!

Oh my goodness, yes! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! That's like when they nerfed Swift and Major Expedition sets to slow everybody down because some players couldn't target in Cyrodiil due to server lag. Rather than fix the problems, let's just remove the symptoms! Yet another nerf to PvE (this time to ALL sword and board users) to address one specific PvP issue.

Crazy, their propensity for swatting flies with a sledgehammer! It's never a subtle tweak, it's always a major nerf of something. Like instead of making small adjustments to Bosmer stealth, let's just scrap the whole thing....established lore and quest dialogues and all, and make up some crazy new thing out of left field that .04% of the player base will like.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall (or a Khajiit hiding in plain sight) at some of these developer meetings to see how they come up with some of this stuff! It's hard to imagine an actual quorum of people agreeing to some of these crazy ideas. It seems more like one developer at a desk making stuff up off the top of their head and pushing it to live, while everybody else is at home, asleep.

Ratzkifal

Good news everyone. The next update will have one dungeon that's related to Bosmer. Wouldn't it be fitting to fix Bosmer stealth along with the update that's partially related to them?

Neighboring Elsweyr, Grahtwood’s Elden Root tree is threatened by a deathly corruption that originates from the nearby jungles of Tenmar and the Lair of Maarselok. Grahtwood’s protectors have tried and failed to destroy the Dragon at the center of the blight, so a truce has been called between the forest spirit Selene and her captor, the warlock Carindon. Together, and with your help, they must attempt to save the Elden Root tree before the corruption can spread.

max_only

OsManiaC wrote: »

Just think of it, you are a veteran elder scrolls player or the modern one with oblivion and skyrim not matters, you hate mmorpgs, but you want to give a try to ESO - just Single player content- ...

And you choose bosmer because you were a woodelf in all your previous games

HAHA GET REKT

Prrrrrrecisely

Blinkin8r

The new Bosmer passives are better than the old ones and are lore friendly.

BlueRaven

Blinkin8r wrote: »

The new Bosmer passives are better than the old ones and are lore friendly.

No.

haelene

Friendly reminder to all you Bosmer mains out there : Do not engage the trolls.

Carry on.

TokenIntellect

Blinkin8r wrote: »

The new Bosmer passives are better than the old ones and are lore friendly.

How do you figure?

Cundu_Ertur

haelene wrote: »

Friendly reminder to all you Bosmer mains out there : Do not engage the trolls.

Carry on.

One troll is worth 5 pages, at least.

Blinkin8r wrote: »

The new Bosmer passives are better than the old ones and are lore friendly.

No, these changes are the exact opposite of lore friendly. They are lore hostile. Especially the loss of being able to sneak exceptionally well to get an ability that is best used for a guard. Bosmer are not guards, have never been guards. They are supposed to be one of the two best races at thievery, and now they are dead last.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Good news everyone. The next update will have one dungeon that's related to Bosmer. Wouldn't it be fitting to fix Bosmer stealth along with the update that's partially related to them?

Neighboring Elsweyr, Grahtwood’s Elden Root tree is threatened by a deathly corruption that originates from the nearby jungles of Tenmar and the Lair of Maarselok. Grahtwood’s protectors have tried and failed to destroy the Dragon at the center of the blight, so a truce has been called between the forest spirit Selene and her captor, the warlock Carindon. Together, and with your help, they must attempt to save the Elden Root tree before the corruption can spread.

Update 23 would be an excellent opportunity for the devs to finally admit that they got things completely wrong. It's not like we don't already know.

haelene

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

One troll is worth 5 pages, at least

I mean, if you're looking at it in terms of keeping the thread active, sure!

That said, not really sure that's the best way to get our point across in a meaningful way. (Not like I really believe ZOS is listening anyways, but a girl can dream.)