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Dissapointed with the final patch

  • martijnlv40
    martijnlv40
    ✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That last part about Trinimac is a bit misleading. While he did lead Aldmeri forces, and was Auriel’s greatest knight (I guess), he wasn’t an Aldmer. He was an et’ada. Even if he was an Aldmer, he ‘died’ before even the Chimer splintered off, so he would be an ancestor of at least Altmer, Dunmer, Orsimer (ironically) and probably Bosmer.
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    I'm just in denial about the fact I might have to play an Orc for my stamDDs for the foreseeable future.
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    I'm just in denial about the fact I might have to play an Orc for my stamDDs for the foreseeable future.

    Competing for leaderboard scores?

    Yes? Play Orc.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    Wanting to be competitive?

    Yes? Play any race that favours Stamina.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.
    Xbox Series X (EU)
    - Daggerfall Covenant -
  • Ogou
    Ogou
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.

    Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.

    Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.

    Morrowind

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5

    Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10

    Still nothing... Weird...

    Skyrim

    Bosmer skill bonuses
    +10 Archery (25)
    +5 Alchemy (20)
    +5 Light Armor (20)
    +5 Lockpicking (20)
    +5 Pickpocket (20)
    +5 Sneak (20)

    What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm

    Scout in Morrowind and the NPC tables for Skyrim both have sneak as a class skill. Oblivion is the outlier there, and the only case where a class recommendation for Bosmer in any game did not include sneak as a class skill. Didn't matter as much, though, since Bosmer had the best sneak bonus in the game for Oblivion, so, yeah. Excellent scouts. But the fact is, scouts generally have had sneak as a class skill.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Ogou
    Ogou
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.

    Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.

    Morrowind

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5

    Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10

    Still nothing... Weird...

    Skyrim

    Bosmer skill bonuses
    +10 Archery (25)
    +5 Alchemy (20)
    +5 Light Armor (20)
    +5 Lockpicking (20)
    +5 Pickpocket (20)
    +5 Sneak (20)

    What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
  • Razorback174
    Razorback174
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ogou wrote: »

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?

    I don't know, maybe the fact that Khajiit have arguably the better eyesight? Given their cat eyes and all. So why do they get stealth, and Bosmer lose it entirely?

    I'm not arguing that Khajiit should lose this bonus, but damn if the Bosmer should either. Ever heard of the "right of theft"? It's in the game for goodness sake!. A whole culture with a tradition of sneaking, stealing, and thieving. And that identity is now gone.

    A Bosmer (one of the most smallest and most nimble of the races) is now as sneaky as a huge Nord, Imperial, or Orc. If that's not lore-shattering, I have no idea what is.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ogou wrote: »

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?

    I don't know, maybe the fact that Khajiit have arguably the better eyesight? Given their cat eyes and all. So why do they get stealth, and Bosmer lose it entirely?

    I'm not arguing that Khajiit should lose this bonus, but damn if the Bosmer should either. Ever heard of the "right of theft"? It's in the game for goodness sake!. A whole culture with a tradition of sneaking, stealing, and thieving. And that identity is now gone.

    A Bosmer (one of the most smallest and most nimble of the races) is now as sneaky as a huge Nord, Imperial, or Orc. If that's not lore-shattering, I have no idea what is.

    Actually khajiits do not have better eyesight. If You would know cats eye anatomy You would've know why. To see better at night cats sacrifice eyesight because they have lowered amount of retinas in their eyes responsible for seeing colours to increase amount of irises responsible for absorbing the light which is helping them to see better at night but for the cost of generally weaker eyesight and lower visible color palette. It's also not true that cats can see in somplete darkness. Their eyesight especially during the day is pretty weak when compared to humans. They have sharp vision only up to ~6 meters which is kinda small distance. Cats are also really good at noticing movement but horrible at noticing the targets that are not moving to the point certain animals developed tactics to stand still to avoid being noticed by cats. Like seriously belive me the more You know about cats eye anatomy the more reasonable it becomes for khajiits to not have stealth detection if You want to base that feature on eyesight.

    As I said previously mass and size is not instantly connected with sneaking capabilities. 300 kg 3 meters long tiger have better chance to sneak behind You unnoticed then 2 kg chicken.
    Edited by Juhasow on February 21, 2019 12:41AM
  • Razorback174
    Razorback174
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?

    I don't know, maybe the fact that Khajiit have arguably the better eyesight? Given their cat eyes and all. So why do they get stealth, and Bosmer lose it entirely?

    I'm not arguing that Khajiit should lose this bonus, but damn if the Bosmer should either. Ever heard of the "right of theft"? It's in the game for goodness sake!. A whole culture with a tradition of sneaking, stealing, and thieving. And that identity is now gone.

    A Bosmer (one of the most smallest and most nimble of the races) is now as sneaky as a huge Nord, Imperial, or Orc. If that's not lore-shattering, I have no idea what is.

    Actually khajiits do not have better eyesight. If You would know cats eye anatomy You would've know why. To see better at night cats sacrifice eyesight because they have lowered amount of retinas in their eyes responsible for seeing colours to increase amount of irises responsible for absorbing the light which is helping them to see better at night but for the cost of generally weaker eyesight and lower visible color palette. It's also not true that cats can see in somplete darkness. Their eyesight especially during the day is pretty weak when compared to humans. They have sharp vision only up to ~6 meters which is kinda small distance. Cats are also really good at noticing movement but horrible at noticing the targets that are not moving to the point certain animals developed tactics to stand still to avoid being noticed by cats. Like seriously belive me the more You know about cats eye anatomy the more reasonable it becomes for khajiits to not have stealth detection if You want to base that feature on eyesight.

    As I said previously mass and size is not instantly connected with sneaking capabilities. 300 kg 3 meters long tiger have better chance to sneak behind You unnoticed then 2 kg chicken.

    Ok then, we'll base it on hearing. Cat's are much more perceptive when it comes to hearing. Hear a noise, sense a target, and there you have detection.

    Look, I don't care, I don't want them to tear stealth away from Khajiit either. I'm not advocating for it and I'm not arguing for it. But for the devs to pass off a **** stealth detection bonus that serves NO purpose in almost every aspect of gameplay on a race also fundamentally known for its stealth is disgusting.

    At this point, I feel like I could live with the equally useless dodge roll active passive skill they've given us as well IF and ONLY IF they give the previous stealth bonus back.
  • Canned_Apples
    Canned_Apples
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    FotM chasers will never be happy.

    I've only ever played Bretons and Imperials and that will never change regardless of whether they are buffed or nerfed.

    This is an mmo. Everything is likely to change at one point or another.
  • Kalle_Demos
    Kalle_Demos
    ✭✭✭✭
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.

    Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.

    Morrowind

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5

    Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10

    Still nothing... Weird...

    Skyrim

    Bosmer skill bonuses
    +10 Archery (25)
    +5 Alchemy (20)
    +5 Light Armor (20)
    +5 Lockpicking (20)
    +5 Pickpocket (20)
    +5 Sneak (20)

    What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?

    Dunmer have bonuses to all Elemental Damage not just fire. Throughout the series Dunmer have had high stats in Destruction Magic (Fire, Shock, Ice).

    "If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn
  • Ogou
    Ogou
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.

    Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.

    Morrowind

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5

    Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10

    Still nothing... Weird...

    Skyrim

    Bosmer skill bonuses
    +10 Archery (25)
    +5 Alchemy (20)
    +5 Light Armor (20)
    +5 Lockpicking (20)
    +5 Pickpocket (20)
    +5 Sneak (20)

    What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?

    What is lore breaking? You mean beyond a passive that was never theirs (Night Eye-Kahjit i.e. Improved vision) suddenly gets transferred to Bosmers, who there after NEVER has a passive remotely like it ever again in any game? Meanwhile improved stealth, which is something they ALWAYS had, is suddenly gone? You mean besides that?

    "Hey Altmers, you guys are getting improved swimming!"
    "What, why? Argonians get that."
    "Well you live on an island, so Altmers must sail a lot, and if they sail a lot they must swim well."
    "Hmmm, well that makes sense. Nothing lore breaking there."
    - Said no one ever.

    That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.

    Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.

    Morrowind

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5

    Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10

    Still nothing... Weird...

    Skyrim

    Bosmer skill bonuses
    +10 Archery (25)
    +5 Alchemy (20)
    +5 Light Armor (20)
    +5 Lockpicking (20)
    +5 Pickpocket (20)
    +5 Sneak (20)

    What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?

    Dunmer have bonuses to all Elemental Damage not just fire. Throughout the series Dunmer have had high stats in Destruction Magic (Fire, Shock, Ice).

    Dunmer, currently on live have a 7% increase in fire damage and a 2% increase in both shock and ice damage.
    Edited by Ogou on February 21, 2019 4:05AM
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Daus wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    I'm just in denial about the fact I might have to play an Orc for my stamDDs for the foreseeable future.

    Competing for leaderboard scores?

    Yes? Play Orc.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    Wanting to be competitive?

    Yes? Play any race that favours Stamina.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    You know if they would have simply balanced the racial passives this wouldn't be an issue, but to my surprise racial balance is actually worse this update.

    Yeah when in fact it's not. Especially for Magicka races it's better than ever before and if we count the Orc performance as a little outlier Stamina is in an excellent place as well.
    Xbox Series X (EU)
    - Daggerfall Covenant -
  • Vapirko
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    kojou wrote: »
    Looks like there will be a big surge in the Orc population next week...

    FYI bosmer and redguard have been shown to beat orcs in DPS if you play a Stam Sorc, and were still in the early stages of testing. So for my Stam sorc PvE character should I be asking for buffs to orc? Absolutely not. They’re very well rounded but stop with the orcs make every other race irrelevant crap. I have an Orc stamplar PvP, Orc Stam sorc PvE, Redguard PvP Stam DK, and argonian mag/Stam NB crossover and an Orc PvP stamina warden. I’ll be changing the argonian and Orc Stam warden to Dunmer to allow they both to play mag and stam specs very well and use vampire sustain passives, and I guarantee you I won’t miss not being/staying an orc. All these toons are very viable so what about this distribution of races makes you think Orc is so overwhelmingly good that there’s no point playing any other stamina race? I can’t wait till this is over and done with and the crying stop.
  • juhislihis19
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    I was happy to see the changes made for Nord. For a second I figured I wouldn't have to race change.

    Then I saw what they did to Orc and there's just no comparison. All stamina players in Cyro will be Orcs if not Redguards. So after a good start, I think ZOS messed up good with the final racial changes.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Sorry to disappoint but I will never stop complaining until Bosmer get stealth back.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Vapirko
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    I was happy to see the changes made for Nord. For a second I figured I wouldn't have to race change.

    Then I saw what they did to Orc and there's just no comparison. All stamina players in Cyro will be Orcs if not Redguards. So after a good start, I think ZOS messed up good with the final racial changes.

    Only one of my PvP stamina toons will be an Orc in PvP, and of the remaining three only one will be a Redguard. So no, not everyone will be.
  • Jaimeh
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    Seraphayel wrote: »

    Competing for leaderboard scores?

    Yes? Play Orc.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    Wanting to be competitive?

    Yes? Play any race that favours Stamina.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    I chose Redguard because they were ideal for my spec of choice. However, the 258 weapon damage that Orcs are now getting is a huge buff, and undestandably will make players, especially playing end-game content, consider a change (to a character they presumably played with for a long time). That's frustrating, no matter how you want to present it.
  • Seraphayel
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    Jaimeh wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »

    Competing for leaderboard scores?

    Yes? Play Orc.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    Wanting to be competitive?

    Yes? Play any race that favours Stamina.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    I chose Redguard because they were ideal for my spec of choice. However, the 258 weapon damage that Orcs are now getting is a huge buff, and undestandably will make players, especially playing end-game content, consider a change (to a character they presumably played with for a long time). That's frustrating, no matter how you want to present it.

    Again, this is the choice of sustain vs. damage. Magicka players (mostly Altmer) are freaking out about Breton (sustain) being superior to Altmer (damage). For Stamina damage is now better than sustain? Mhm. Orcs always were the damage and Redguards always were the sustain race for Stamina. Nothing changed in that regard.

    Another note: Orcs always had the bonus damage on melee attacks. Why did you choose Redguard then but all of a sudden care for Orcs damage now?
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 21, 2019 9:12AM
    Xbox Series X (EU)
    - Daggerfall Covenant -
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?

    I don't know, maybe the fact that Khajiit have arguably the better eyesight? Given their cat eyes and all. So why do they get stealth, and Bosmer lose it entirely?

    I'm not arguing that Khajiit should lose this bonus, but damn if the Bosmer should either. Ever heard of the "right of theft"? It's in the game for goodness sake!. A whole culture with a tradition of sneaking, stealing, and thieving. And that identity is now gone.

    A Bosmer (one of the most smallest and most nimble of the races) is now as sneaky as a huge Nord, Imperial, or Orc. If that's not lore-shattering, I have no idea what is.

    Actually khajiits do not have better eyesight. If You would know cats eye anatomy You would've know why. To see better at night cats sacrifice eyesight because they have lowered amount of retinas in their eyes responsible for seeing colours to increase amount of irises responsible for absorbing the light which is helping them to see better at night but for the cost of generally weaker eyesight and lower visible color palette. It's also not true that cats can see in somplete darkness. Their eyesight especially during the day is pretty weak when compared to humans. They have sharp vision only up to ~6 meters which is kinda small distance. Cats are also really good at noticing movement but horrible at noticing the targets that are not moving to the point certain animals developed tactics to stand still to avoid being noticed by cats. Like seriously belive me the more You know about cats eye anatomy the more reasonable it becomes for khajiits to not have stealth detection if You want to base that feature on eyesight.

    As I said previously mass and size is not instantly connected with sneaking capabilities. 300 kg 3 meters long tiger have better chance to sneak behind You unnoticed then 2 kg chicken.

    Ok then, we'll base it on hearing. Cat's are much more perceptive when it comes to hearing. Hear a noise, sense a target, and there you have detection.

    Look, I don't care, I don't want them to tear stealth away from Khajiit either. I'm not advocating for it and I'm not arguing for it. But for the devs to pass off a **** stealth detection bonus that serves NO purpose in almost every aspect of gameplay on a race also fundamentally known for its stealth is disgusting.

    At this point, I feel like I could live with the equally useless dodge roll active passive skill they've given us as well IF and ONLY IF they give the previous stealth bonus back.

    Ah so now You'll jump between the senses just to match Your theory ? Kinda lame way but ok. You do realize that in Elder Scrolls lore all mers have extended size of ears when in case of khajist proportion of their ear to the size of head is actually smaller then in case of regular cats ? Also when it comes to "sensing" a target cats use their mustaches for that which can sense the vibrations but to make those mustaches effective cats need to have their heads closer to the ground so evolution of khajits eliminated also that feature by straightening their siluetes and making them 2 leg walkers which increased the distance their mustaches have to the ground.

    ZoS made things clear they wanted for every race to have unique passive and they did not wanted for 2 races to have identical non resource related passives. Since wood elfs match better to the hunter type of charatcer (faster leveling of bow) and khajits more to the thief type (higher chance to pickpocket) type they gaved them both passives that would reflect those roles since they could give them only 1 passive for each due to racial passives limitations in ESO. Now both of those races can use stealth and have stealth connected features but khajits will be better known for their use of stealth when wood elfves will be better known for their stealth detection. Also it's not like all other races have all their passives usefull everywhere at any given time so stop complaining.
    Edited by Juhasow on February 21, 2019 10:34AM
  • Juhasow
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    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.

    Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.

    Morrowind

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5

    Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10

    Still nothing... Weird...

    Skyrim

    Bosmer skill bonuses
    +10 Archery (25)
    +5 Alchemy (20)
    +5 Light Armor (20)
    +5 Lockpicking (20)
    +5 Pickpocket (20)
    +5 Sneak (20)

    What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

    If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
    Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

    "If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

    In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

    Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

    I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

    You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

    I want to know what that is based on.

    I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

    I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)



    Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

    Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

    There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

    So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

    And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

    Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

    And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

    I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

    Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

    They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

    They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

    No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

    "Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
    "But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
    "Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

    "Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

    Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

    Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

    Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

    When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

    So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

    No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

    Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

    Here is some “context” for you:

    Morrowind

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

    Oblivion

    Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

    Skyrim

    Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

    Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

    Morrowind

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    Skyrim

    Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

    •••

    Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

    Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

    Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

    And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

    That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
    You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

    Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

    As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

    I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
    So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

    I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.

    Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
    So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.

    Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.

    Morrowind

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5

    Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.

    Oblivion

    Bosmer Attriibutes;

    Skill Modifier
    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10

    Still nothing... Weird...

    Skyrim

    Bosmer skill bonuses
    +10 Archery (25)
    +5 Alchemy (20)
    +5 Light Armor (20)
    +5 Lockpicking (20)
    +5 Pickpocket (20)
    +5 Sneak (20)

    What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm

    So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.

    Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?

    Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
    Skill Bonuses:
    Long Blade +5
    Destruction +10
    Light Armor +5
    Athletics +5
    Mysticism +5
    Marksman +5
    Short Blade +10
    Specials:
    Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
    Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%

    Wow, no bonus to fire damage.

    What about Oblivion?

    Skills:
    +10 Blade and Destruction
    +5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

    Traits:
    Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
    Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant

    Wow, no bonus to fire damage.

    Skryim?

    Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.

    So what words do Dunmer have for me?

    The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
    That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
    Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.

    "Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.

    Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
    Edited by Juhasow on February 21, 2019 11:46AM
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »

    Competing for leaderboard scores?

    Yes? Play Orc.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    Wanting to be competitive?

    Yes? Play any race that favours Stamina.

    No? Your choice of race doesn't matter.

    I chose Redguard because they were ideal for my spec of choice. However, the 258 weapon damage that Orcs are now getting is a huge buff, and undestandably will make players, especially playing end-game content, consider a change (to a character they presumably played with for a long time). That's frustrating, no matter how you want to present it.

    Again, this is the choice of sustain vs. damage. Magicka players (mostly Altmer) are freaking out about Breton (sustain) being superior to Altmer (damage). For Stamina damage is now better than sustain? Mhm. Orcs always were the damage and Redguards always were the sustain race for Stamina. Nothing changed in that regard.

    Another note: Orcs always had the bonus damage on melee attacks. Why did you choose Redguard then but all of a sudden care for Orcs damage now?

    It's not the same, the current 4% is only for melee weapons, 258 weapon damage will be both melee weapons and bow, it's significantly stronger, and something to consider.
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