What is our Class Reps personal opinions on the upcoming racial changes?

Moonsorrow

As the topic says, i and most likely many others too are interested in our class reps opinions on the upcoming racial passive changes?

How do you feel they are meeting the goals that were set?

Bonus question: What is your opinion on the 1H enchants being cut in half?

And most importantly: Bosmer with old Stealthy passive or with the Dodge Roll passive?

No flaming or negativity wanted on this discussion, but hopefully some of our class reps want to share their opinions. You are allowed to have an opinion, right?

Dalsinthus

Some of what you are asking for can be found here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459718/are-you-happy-with-the-racial-changes-that-most-likely-will-go-live/p4

Starting with post 95 and continuing through the thread

Masel wrote: »

All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

The gist of Masel's point is that races are parsing close to one another, this is a buff compared to live for races like Bosmer and he thinks that people are losing sight of this in their complaints about things like hunter's eye. He does acknowledge that hunter's eye is not that great but on net, he thinks this is a good set of changes.

Some of the responses express frustration with the focus on parsing and not adequately considering lore and the importance of stealth for the Bosmer race. It's a good read although it doesn't really resolve anything.

Tasear

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Some of what you are asking for can be found here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459718/are-you-happy-with-the-racial-changes-that-most-likely-will-go-live/p4

Starting with post 95 and continuing through the thread

Masel wrote: »

All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

The gist of Masel's point is that races are parsing close to one another, this is a buff compared to live for races like Bosmer and he thinks that people are losing sight of this in their complaints about things like hunter's eye. He does acknowledge that hunter's eye is not that great but on net, he thinks this is a good set of changes.

Some of the responses express frustration with the focus on parsing and not adequately considering lore and the importance of stealth for the Bosmer race. It's a good read although it doesn't really resolve anything.

Agruing masel opinion somethings aren't just about numbers for people in regards to balance.

Moonsorrow

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Some of the responses express frustration with the focus on parsing and not adequately considering lore and the importance of stealth for the Bosmer race. It's a good read although it doesn't really resolve anything.

Seen couple class reps comment here and there, but was hoping a few of them sharing their thoughts on the current latest situation as it seems it will be pretty much the one going to Live like that. Would be nice to have several reps saying their opinions on one topic instead of having to search all over the forums.


And yeah, while having close results what comes to dps parsing is nice and all.. this game has a lot of people interested in the lore and roleplaying, so making it all about math and not fun stuff (like sneaking and stealing) can alienate people who have been enjoying their current characters and playstyles. I mean, the Stealthy passive.. if it would stay like it is now on Live, no one is hurt by it, it does not break balance and so on.. and it gives choices on races instead of just 1 (Khajiit) stealth race.

Would be nice to know class reps opinion about the changes on pvp point of view also.

Like how will there be more choices and freedom, if soon all gankers are khajiit as an example? (force crits from cloak + khajiit racial crit bonus + Shadow mundus = PAIN)

Deathlord92

I just want my Breton stamblade to have stam racial passives his a deadly assassin not a sorcerer Breton 4 life

Masel

Since I said some things regarding the racials on the forums, many players asked me how we felt about the racial changes that happened with Wrathstone and I wanted to give a more detailed overview on them regarding PvE and PvP combat. Remember that us class reps are here to help ZoS with combat balancing, gather feedback and provide it to them. We do NOT make any decisions and from what I’ve seen, we provide feedback even if we do not necessarily agree with it because we try to represent the whole community. This should still allow us to voice personal opinions without getting insulted, because we are players ourselves that suffer from the same pain points as all of you do. I can only say for myself that I wanna do whats best for the overall health of the game that we all love so much. You can’t please everyone, changes automatically entail disagreements and that’s what happens here too.

So I’ll go through the racials 1 by 1 and simply discuss in which roles I can see them being worthwhile in both PvE and PvP.

Altmer

• Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain → No changes
• Spellcharge: 9% Magicka Recovery → Spell Recharge: Restore 645 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lower, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
• Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Syrabane’s Boon: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
• Elemental Talent: 4% Fire/Shock/Ice damage → Increases your Spell Damage by 258.

Altmer has been debated a lot since they changed the spell recharge to the lower resource. In terms of combat balancing, it is certainly better than what we had before. If you remember the first PTS, we had a lot of dunmers complaining that they feel weak compared to altmer especially, and the only way to get there is to make both of them very close in terms of performance on a Magicka oriented build. Now, altmer has stamina recovery when used on a Magicka build, while dunmer has higher off-stat resources. With the Magicka recovery altmer had before, dunmer basically did not have a place. These two races are very close on live and this change was probably introduced to maintain that.

PvE DD: Altmers are traditionally used on Magicka damage-focused builds, and they still excel at that. They have the highest possible damage output of all Magicka races when you set sustain aside. They are in a very good spot due to that and got a significant buff to them due to the change from 4% elemental damage to 258 spell damage, since it affects everything that is not a pet now, regardless of damage type. The stamina recovery may feel lacklustre for many players, but let me put it this way: you can make use of it in many instances and it can be very much needed in PvE content where you need to interact a lot with mechanics. Altmer does not need it to be a very useful race in PvE.

PvE Healer: I’ve seen healers complain about the loss in Magicka recovery all over the place, but I don’t understand why. 258 Spell damage now affects your healing output as opposed to the elemental damage, allowing you to go for more sustain elsewhere. Altmer are a very viable healer choice, and will remain in a good spot.

PvE Tanks: Altmer tanks are pretty damn nice now, especially the recovery passive helps a lot because it works through block and by adjusting your resource pools, you can control which resource you get. Maximum Magicka also doesn’t hurt and I can see a few nice combos with the channel passive on a sorc tank for example (dark conversion). The 258 Spell damage boosts your selfhealing with Magicka abilities, as does the Magicka.

PvP: here, the discussion is a bit more comprehensive because the traditional PvE-roles are a bit blurry. However, the widely criticised Spell recharge for PvE is pretty great for PvP, because it allows you to go for less stamina sustain than other races would have to. The channel passive pairs great with some classes like templar and sorcerer,a nd the 258 spell damage is a significant buff to their damage in PvP too, AND it affects healing, which is very noticeable. All in all, altmer looks like a good choice to me.

Lore: Well, lore is important to many people. While I think a MMO cannot be balanced around the lore, I can understand that ESO plays in a realm with a lot of traditional aspects in it. Thus, it should be respected when making racial passives. The stamina recovery on a Magicka builds is the biggest pain point of the community in that regard, and I personally would’ve preferred a middle ground between PTS 1 and now, such that the passive restores stamina and magicka with half the value. I have found statements that altmer are great warriors too, and you see a lot of them wielding battle axes etc, so I don’t see a big problem for now, since they’re passives are still mainly magicka-based.

Argonian

• Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → No changes
• Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion → Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
• Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
• Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%.
Argonians have been the way to tank for a long time because of their superior sustain. They still fulfil that role and will remain a very survivable race thorugh a lot of sustain and healing. Their passives are still very interesting and justify using them on a character that is focusing on healing and tankiness 100% in both aspects of the game.

PvE DD: Argonians do not have many passives that justify using them on a Damage dealer, BUT they are not as subpar as many make them look in my opinion. Resourceful is still a pretty nice sustain passive and the 1k Magicka and health also don’t hurt. Still, not the best DDs, but not the worst either.

PvE Healer: Argonians are still great healers. Their Quick to Mend passives paired with their health make them tough to kill in hard content, and their sustain is very nice. The bit of magicka also increases healing output.

PvE Tank: Argonians are still probably one of the best tanking races. Tri-stat sustain and increased self-healing plus additional health make them a very good choice for tanking, especially if you want a more forgiving experience.

PvP: Argonians are everywhere in PvP, and rightly so. Not only does their disease immunity make them take less major defile in, but their healing affinity and incredible sustain also makes them very hard to take down. This makes them a good choice for any pvp build, since their passive are versatile and allow for flexibility. Especially when paired with potion cooldown glyphs.

Lore: Not a lot to complain here, only that they do not have poison immunity now is a bit weird, since they are known for poisoning themselves to gain immunity.

Bosmer

• Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
• Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
• Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
• Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 10% Movement Speed and 1500 Spell and Physical Penetration for 6 seconds.

Bosmer didn’t really have place in many parts of the game, and the new passives definitely improved them overall. The recovery is a lot more useful than the old one (unless you stacked an unnecessary amount of it) and the max stamina is more too. Their sustain passive competes with the redguard sustain directly and both of them have their advantages and disadvantages, depending on the circumstances they are played in.

PvE DD: Bosmer is definitely a thing now for DDs. That recovery is basically fire and forget on stamina DDs (you can go for Blue food and gain a similar damage value + Health). The roll dodge passive is not something I like personally, but it is just meant to provide an option. You do not have to make use of this passive to make Bosmer relevant.

PvE Healer: Bosmer suffers from the same issue as all stamina races do: There are no real stamina based options to heal. So unless that is changed, there is not really a point in discussing stamina races in terms of healing.

PvE Tank: Recovery stops when you block. Now, many tanks only block when necessary, but still, not really the best choice when you want to be tanky.

PvP: Bosmer is a good choice for movement-focused builds. While the roll dodge passive synergises with the other passives in that regard, it also kind of forces you into specific builds to make use of it. The loss of the stealth radius passive and the loss of disease immunity do not help them. Still, bosmers can be really good and hard to kill if they’re played right.

Lore: The stealth passive has been brought up quite a bit, and the loss of disease immunity to poison does not really match the lore here. Argonians should have poison and bosmer disease from a lore standpoint. Their stealthy gameplay has been changed from better sneak to better detection, so that is definitely something that stands out as negative, especially when you compare them to Khajiit (they should be the ones detecting people).

Breton

• Increases Experience gain in Light Armor Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Alliance Point gain → No changes
• Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
• Spell Resistance: 3960 Spell Resistance → Gain 2310 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery. Resistance is doubled when you have Concussion, Burning or Chilled on you.
• Magicka Mastery: 3% Magicka Cost Reduction → Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%.
Breton is one of my favourite races now. Passives are interesting, not too niche and can be used in all aspects of the game. Nothing negative to say here.

PvE DD: All of their passives are Magicka-based, so that is where they will be used. The passives make them easily sustainable and pretty tanky in instances where magical damage is prevalent (which is pretty much all recent content). They can reach a similar damage level as altmers by investing less into sustain, so they’re in a very good spot overall.

PvE Healer: Breton was one of my favourite races to heal with before the changes, and now they definitely are a viable option. Better sustain allows you to increase your healing output through other means and the additional resistance helps a lot with survivability.
PvE Tanks: Their passives are great for tanks that use a lot of Magicka and for classes that miss the spell resistance passive that Templars and DKs have in their kit. Also a pretty interesting choice.

PvP: Bretons are a damn good race for PvP. Their kit allows them to go for a lot of damage through sets, and they will be especially strong against other casters and on classes that have expensive abilities. Their weakness will most likely be stamina management, so players will have to invest into that more than altmers do for example.

Lore: Bretons have been known for their affinity to magic and resistance to it, so nothing to complain there.

Dunmer

• Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50% → No changes
• Dynamic: 6% Max Stamina and Magicka → Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1875.
• Resist Flame: 3% Max Magicka and 2079 Flame Resistance → Increases your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
• Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

Dunmer used to be the ultimate race for a Dragonknight, and they will still perform very well. Their uniqueness comes from the immunity to burning and increased fire resistance, allowing them to synergise with being a vampire. They are a race that can be used equally well on stamina and magicka.

PvE DD: From a pure damage standpoint, dunmer is slightly behind Altmer. What they have going for them is the Fire resistance, which is a damage type that is very prevalent in PvE. Good race, good passives in my opinion. Also has the advantage that they can be used on both ends, stamina and magicka.

PvE healer: Keep in mind that their damage passives also affect healing now, which they did not before. So from a healing perspective, they are just as good as altmer and the higher stamina pool doesn’t hurt either.

PvE tank: Dunmer has high resource pools which makes them interesting, but not a dominant choice for tanking. Sustain and group support is more important than your own resource pools on a tank, so it is not a race I would go for, but it is still not bad either.

PvP: Dunmers will be just as effective as they used to be. Fire is the dominant magicka-based damage type in PvP, and having that burning immunity is huge. The additional stamina pool also helps getting additional off-stat skills in. Many builds in PvP utilise their off-stats a lot, so it’s good to have more of them. Getting that one additional dodge or heal in can save your life.
Lore: Dunmers are great warriors and mages, and their vvardenfell heritage makes them resistant to fire. Passives reflect that, all good.

Imperial

• Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain
• Tough: Increases your Max Health by 2000.
• Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
• Red Diamond: Reworked this passive so when you deal Direct Damage now, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Also grants a 3% cost reduction on all abilities and actions.

Imperial has been in a quite bad spot. They had high resource pools, but as a tank they lacked something unique and for a damage dealer their sustain was too bad for many classes to justify using them. This has been changed now. Their passives became versatile, unique and interesting for most playstyles.

PvE DD: Having high maximum stamina, cost reduction on everything including ultimates, sprint, block, bash, dodge roll etc makes them a very interesting choice for a DD on the stamina side. Due to the lack of additional maximum magicka, they probably wont be used on that side. For stamina, I see them as a very viable alternative. Especially since the huge health makes them very survivable and more forgiving in harder content.

PvE Healer: Even for support builds they are interesting because of their cost reduction passive. They increase Warhorn uptimes in groups and the tri-stat return and health makes them very survivable. Their healing output will be lower compared to Breton, dunmer, argonian and altmer however.

PvE tank: Imperials are hands down one of the best tanking races. Their passives all work through block, they all synergise very well with a tank in PvE. Increases group damage and your own survivability. Nothing negative to say.

PvP: Imperials will make tough combatants in PvP with their passives. They are survivable, deal out good damage and have good sustain. Very nice.

Lore: Imperials are known to be fast and effective learners of everything, and the passives reflect that. Good stuff. Small thing could be the lack of additional magicka, but that would go at the cost of the other passives, so I can live with that.

Khajiit

• Increases Experience gain in Medium Armor Skill Line by 15%, 5% bonus change to successfully pickpocket → No changes
• Nimble: 20% Health Recovery and 10% Stamina Recovery → Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 85.
• Stealthy: Reduce detection radius by 3m and Increase damage from Stealth by 10% → Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 825.
• Carnage: Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% → Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Damage by 10%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m.

Khajiit have been in a bad spot overall, and they were restrained to the stamina side of things. The new passives should alleviate that, since they are a lot more versatile and can be used on both ends very well.

PvE DD: Khajiit can be used very well on classes that have access to a lot of critical chance now. Generally, they synergise best with classes that do NOT have a critical damage passive in their kit, meaning that you might get the highest return out of sorcerers, dragonknights and wardens when using a Khajiit. Their additional resources and recoveries are not high, but they still help. Damagewise they aren’t consistently behind the rest, so a very good choice for a damage dealer.

PvE healer: Khajiit passive also affects healing, which means that going for high critical chance on a healer will make them quite unique and effective. Having the additional health and recovery also doesn’t hurt. Definetely a good choice for a healer.

PvE Tank: Khajiit aren’t necessarily the best choice for a tank when we compare them to some of the other race, because critical chance is not something that tanks have a lot of.

Lore: Khajiit are known to be stealthy, great magicians and warriors, and the passives 100% allow them to do exactly that. Very good.

Nord

• Increases Experience gain in Two Handed Skill Line by 15%, 15 extra minutes on drink buffs → No changes
• Stalwart: 6% Max Stamina and 20% Health Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
• Resist Frost: 9% Max Health and 2079 Cold Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.
• Rugged: 6% damage reduction → Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

Nords were at the bottom of the barrel pretty much everywhere. As tanks the 6% damage mitigation was useless, as DDs they performed badly and in PvP their passives were simply subpar to what other races had. Now they are pretty interesting for a lot of combinations.

PvE DD: While their stamina is lower than some of the sustain races, their Ultimate generation and tankiness makes them a very forgiving choice for a damage dealer. In melee range these guys will survive a lot of stuff that others don’t. Damagewise and from a sustain perspective they are quite a bit behind though, so I don’t think they’ll beused much for DDs.

PvE Healer: Only stamina Bonuses, however: the ultigain increases group dps. If you don’t need the additional magicka sustain and healing output, nord can be interesting for you, especially since you become really tanky too.

PvE Tank: Nord is considered to be one of the best tanking races now. Higher ultigain, resistance (which you don’t need very often but still) and higher resource pools, nothing bad to say there.

PvP: They are a very cool race for stamina builds in PvP. The can run medium armor where others cant (improving their sustain noticably), can use ultiamtes more often and cant be rroted by an ice blockade. Good stuff.

Lore: They are known as fierce warriors and resistant to cold (and generally very resilient). Passives reflect that, no problem there.

Orc

• Increases Experience gain in Heavy Armor Skill Line by 15%, extra 10% Inspiration gain → No changes
• Brawny: 6% Max Health and Stamina → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Stamina by 2000.
• Unflinching: Healing Received by 5% and 20% Health Recovery → When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 600 Health. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.
• Swift Warrior: 4% Melee attack, 12% Sprint cost reduction and 10% Sprint Speed → Increases your Weapon Damage by 258. Reduces the cost of your Sprint ability by 12% and increases your Movement Speed while Sprinting by 10%.

Orc has been a niche spec for a long time, especially in PvE you didn’t see many of them, because their passives weren’t that good for that side of the game. The new passives make orcs pretty awesome, high stats and strong damage, a little selfheal and improved movement.

PvE DD: Here’s where orcs shine now. They have high stats and are considered to be too strong by many people. I think they might be just a little bit overtuned in PvE, because they have passives that are all somewhat relevant there. The health is offsetting opportunity costs for going for additional sustain, which makes them pretty much the best choice from a pure stat perspective right now. However, this is tied to another issue with food buffs like clockwork filet and artaeum broth. These provide a lot more than they cost you, letting damage races swap to more sustain without a real tradeoff. At some point they will hopefully get adjusted. When that happens, I don’t see a problem in orc how it is now.

PvE Healer: Since they are a pure stamina race, I don’t see many orc healers running around, but they are strong on other ends.

PvE Tanks: Orcs have good stats for a tank, but there’s better options out there. Still not bad overall.

PvP: Orcs make a great race for PvP. They are tanky, have a lot of offense and can get sustain and defense elsewhere. The healing received takes a bit of defense away, but they gain 258 WD which buffs healing, so it’ll most likely be roughly the same healing again.
Lore: Orc passives fit the lore perfectly. Strong warriors with a bit of defense too.

Redguard

• Increases One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, 15 extra minutes on food buffs → No changes
• Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%. Also reduces the effectiveness of snares on you by 15%.
• Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
• Adrenaline Rush: When you deal damage with a melee attack you restore 792 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds. → When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

Redguard has been in a good spot, and still is. Their passives are interesting across the board. Nothing negative to say here. Still great sustain, snare reduction is always welcome and their weapon cost reduction also affects ultimates.

PvE DD: Redguard is a very interesting choice here. Their sustain is similar to bosmer as long as you keep fighting, and they have offensive power through the ultimate reduction too. Still a very good choice if you need sustain.

PvE Healer: Again a full stamina race, so for a pve healer it is not really interesting.

PvE Tanks: Their passives are great for a tank. Adrenaline rush contributes to sustain through block, cost reduction makes a lot of things cheaper (even blockades) and snare reduction is also nice to have. Ofc they don’t have significant group utility, but make a great choice for tanks that struggle with stamina management.

PvP: Redguards are one of the most interesting races here. Their passives allow for a lot of build ideas an options, even on the magicka side of things because you just don’t have to worry about stamina management anymore (adrenaline rush procs from range too) and you gain additional snare reduction which stacks on top of your light armor grace passive. Ultimate cost reduction is very nice if you want to use a restoration staff ultimate for example.

That’s obviously just my stance and doesn’t have to reflect the feedback we gather from the community. If you disagree on something, that’s fine. I can only tell you that weve been gathering feedback from the community and weve told them about things you don’t like, despite many people saying we don’t and that the program is a bad idea. Keep in mind, we are just “consultants” in a way without any decision power.

Moonsorrow

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I just want my Breton stamblade to have stam racial passives his a deadly assassin not a sorcerer Breton 4 life

Originally i was hoping too that there would have been mag/stam morphs for all the racials so people could have used any race for any stam or mag or hybridish way they wanted. Too bad that was not their way on doing these..

Moonsorrow

@Masel

Thanks a lot for such a detailed answer.

And yeah, we (most) know class reps do not make the decisions about things, but give feedback, like we do to you. But it is nice to know your opinions about things, because we live in a system where class reps have the right to "vote" sort of, while we the common folk can pretty much only pray that things not get worse.

I mean there often is a feeling that, even if they say they are monitoring feedback, it really does not seem to have an impact to any major changes.

And they even cannot listen to everyone or ever make 100% happy, something like 95% would be more like doable. Most people do not understand the mechanics or what the endless nerf demands would do to the game if they were acted upon everytime.

Hoping that Mr Wheeler changes some of the culture on how changes happen there. Got positive feeling about it atleast, i mean.. surely it cannot be worse than before.

But yeah, thanks for your view on races Masel, agreed on pretty much on all of them.


Do all class reps share the same opinion/feelings about the racials? How about things like the 1h enchant change?

WoppaBoem

Thank you for your view.

Czirne

Masel wrote: »

Argonian


Lore: Not a lot to complain here, only that they do not have poison immunity now is a bit weird, since they are known for poisoning themselves to gain immunity.

Bosmer


Lore: The stealth passive has been brought up quite a bit, and the loss of disease immunity to poison does not really match the lore here. Argonians should have poison and bosmer disease from a lore standpoint. Their stealthy gameplay has been changed from better sneak to better detection, so that is definitely something that stands out as negative, especially when you compare them to Khajiit (they should be the ones detecting people).

This is only thing that is bothering me about new racials. Argonians and bosmer have switched their immunities. MAKE IT RIGHT!

Moonsorrow

Czirne wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Argonian


Lore: Not a lot to complain here, only that they do not have poison immunity now is a bit weird, since they are known for poisoning themselves to gain immunity.

Bosmer


Lore: The stealth passive has been brought up quite a bit, and the loss of disease immunity to poison does not really match the lore here. Argonians should have poison and bosmer disease from a lore standpoint. Their stealthy gameplay has been changed from better sneak to better detection, so that is definitely something that stands out as negative, especially when you compare them to Khajiit (they should be the ones detecting people).

This is only thing that is bothering me about new racials. Argonians and bosmer have switched their immunities. MAKE IT RIGHT!

Yep, that is one of the few things anymore after the tweaking that bother people. Should be switched around and Bosmer should keep being a Stealthy race.

So couple easy changes and ZOS would gain many happy people with them.

Also.. Altmer Spellcharge could be split to also give magicka return, like half of the value stam, half magicka. Altmer supremacy and all that.

I think such simple things would make nice changes out of them. Also the Champion Point scaling change (food and so on scaling with cp stat % modifier) thing they did was nice, so whoever came up with that there, job well done.

Cundu_Ertur

@Masel agree with most of what you say, and agree with you that most of the changes to Bosmer are a significant positive if we ignore the elephant in the room. It's just very hard to ignore that elephant.

Masel

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

@Masel agree with most of what you say, and agree with you that most of the changes to Bosmer are a significant positive if we ignore the elephant in the room. It's just very hard to ignore that elephant.

Not gonna start a discussion here again, but I sont see an elephant anywhere around these racials. Some things could be tweaked, but it's not more than a baby hippo to me.

Odovacar

Wow, insightful post @Masel ! Thank you!

Cundu_Ertur

When you choose a race for a particular thing, then losing that for no good reason is an elephant. No-one picked Bosmer because they were particularly good at DPS, healing, or tank; as you point out yourself, this change represents a significant improvement for a race that struggled for adequacy before. Despite this obvious handicap, people chose this race. Why? Well, we've told you. We've told ZOS.
But whatever, opinions can differ, and if we're not on the same page it's at least the same chapter.

DragonMind1st

...still can't believe you people think potion gulping bonus is a good mechanic. Have you ever played an Argonian?

nsmurfer

@Masel Dunmer is still beating Khajiit in DPS by a significant average (0.5-1.5%) in any given class. In every tests done in most people, Dunmer is getting anything between 500-1k extra DPS at 50K DPS range. While I get that human error is possible, it is being seen in every test by different testers in different conditions. Dunmer make better healers, fairly good tanks with higher resources and flame resists. Don't you think, Dunmer is totally eclipsing Khajiit performance wise, in any given role?

md3788

I for one love the Dunmer change for my PvP DK. That passive will bring my stamina up to a good place without the need for tri stat food.

Juhasow

nsmurfer wrote: »

Masel Dunmer is still beating Khajiit in DPS by a significant average (0.5-1.5%) in any given class. In every tests done in most people, Dunmer is getting anything between 500-1k extra DPS at 50K DPS range. While I get that human error is possible, it is being seen in every test by different testers in different conditions. Dunmer make better healers, fairly good tanks with higher resources and flame resists. Don't you think, Dunmer is totally eclipsing Khajiit performance wise, in any given role?

If You use words "significant average" and then You put the numbers 0,5-1,5% then You can not expect to be taken seriously. So dunmer is doing 1% more DPS but khajit have stealth passive , more health and more recovery ? Sounds balanced to me.

nsmurfer

Juhasow wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Masel Dunmer is still beating Khajiit in DPS by a significant average (0.5-1.5%) in any given class. In every tests done in most people, Dunmer is getting anything between 500-1k extra DPS at 50K DPS range. While I get that human error is possible, it is being seen in every test by different testers in different conditions. Dunmer make better healers, fairly good tanks with higher resources and flame resists. Don't you think, Dunmer is totally eclipsing Khajiit performance wise, in any given role?

If You use words "significant average" and then You put the numbers 0,5-1,5% then You can not expect to be taken seriously. So dunmer is doing 1% more DPS but khajit have stealth passive , more health and more recovery ? Sounds balanced to me.

Do you even understand that the sustain is factored into DPS already? Remove the sustain and the gap becomes 2%+. The sustain is balanced by the fact by khajiit's lowest primary resources of all races. Going by the set bonus system, Dunmer's resources come out higher than khajiit's resources+recovery total.

1.5% may seem low to you. But the difference between raceless and Dunmer is 4%. THis means Khajiit is giving a 2.5% bonus to DPS while Dunmer is giving almost twice that.

You were the one complaining about Dunmer patch one. No wonder, you are happy being the stronger hybrid biased af.

WrathOfInnos

@Masel Thanks for the detailed response. I have a few comments and questions.

Altmer vs Dunmer: The difference in DPS was largely corrected when Dunmer got a max magicka increase, there wasn’t any need to remove Altmer sustain. I’d actually be fine if Dunmer had higher burst, and Altmer only beat them in a sustained fight (as it currently on live). Maybe this means bumping Altmer Spell Damage down to 200 and giving them back the Magicka restore, or 100-129 Magicka Recovery. It doesn’t make sense that Altmer Magicka sustain is worse than half of the races: behind Breton, Argonian, Imperial, Khajiit, and Redguard.

The off-resource return could be interesting on a hybrid build, and I could see it working well if added to Dunmer passives (without taking away anything, since it is a pretty niche passive).

As for Altmer healers, I don’t really expect to see a rise in them. Most healers don’t value spell damage, it’s more a game of sustain for them, based on how many orbs, buffs, and sometimes purges they can get out. If they wanted higher healing tool tips, sets like Samctuary and Healers Habit would be more popular. Healing is more of a support role.

What are your thoughts on the change from Crit Chance to Crit Dmg on Khajiit? It seems to me like the new value is a little low. They went from 114% of a Thief Stone to 77% of a Shadow Stone. I’m not sure if that’s a fair comparison, since the Shadow Stone seems overturned on PTS, but the drop of Khajiit DPS over the PTS cycle is noticeable. Maybe 12% Crit Dmg would be more balanced (possibly reducing Shadow Stone down to 11% to keep the peak Crit Dmg unchanged and prevent it from becoming the only Mundus Stone used).

For Breton, is the change to Spell Resistance intended to be a PVE survivability nerf? These status effects are rare in PVE, and definitely cannot be counted on. The introduction of RNG into a defensive passive doesn’t sit well with me. The question “will I survive this mechanic?” should never be answered with “were you lucky enough to get the 5% chance at a simultaneous burning proc to boost your defense?”. The 3960 may have been lower, but the reliability was much more valuable.

For Bosmer, you mention that you don’t like the dodge roll penetration bonus. I think most of the community agrees with this. Do you think there is a good chance of getting something more consistently useful?

Thanks

susmitds

DragonMind1st wrote: »

...still can't believe you people think potion gulping bonus is a good mechanic. Have you ever played an Argonian?

nsmurfer wrote: »

@Masel Dunmer is still beating Khajiit in DPS by a significant average (0.5-1.5%) in any given class. In every tests done in most people, Dunmer is getting anything between 500-1k extra DPS at 50K DPS range. While I get that human error is possible, it is being seen in every test by different testers in different conditions. Dunmer make better healers, fairly good tanks with higher resources and flame resists. Don't you think, Dunmer is totally eclipsing Khajiit performance wise, in any given role?

It ain't as bad as you are making it seem though. I played around a bit more and while yes, the DPS is lower, that is not necessarily that bad. Khajiit is someway between the sustain races and the damage races in terms of DPS, being a bit closer towards the sustain races for the critical damage races. IMO, increasing the resources slightly to 1000 each and increasing the recovery to around 129 (half of the sustain races) and dropping health recovery (not that it ever matters) will a good balance as it will match their position as being midway between damage and sustain.

Ratzkifal

The detailed explanation Masel gave on the balance aspect of it was great, but unfortunately the lore aspect falls short quite a bit in my opinion.

Lore inconsistencies in the new racial balance:

• Imperials having more max health than Orcs and Nords is and has been weird. Necromancers are known to actively seek out Orc corpses to raise sturdier undead. Thanks to their resistances, Nords are still arguably more resilient than Imperials, but Orcs are not for some strange reason.
• Bosmer having no innate sneaking advantage over most other races, when they should have.
• Altmer having an unprecedented boost to stamina. As a sign of good will, here is my attempt to make any sense of it. Altmer cast magic so naturally that the use of it is akin to resting their bodies, thus recovering some stamina.

Correction of a lore claim Masel made in his post

• Argonians and Bosmer have "swapped" immunities. - Both races have had both immunities at some point. Bosmer had disease resist in Morrowind and Oblivion and disease as well as poison resist in Skyrim. Argonians had disease and poison resist in Morrowind and Oblivion and disease resist in Skyrim.

Liofa

Hey. I'll talk about PvE Tanking side of racial changes.

In my opinion and observations, tanking has been split into experience and goals this patch. On live server, tanking choice is completely up to your style and how you want to play. Imperial, Orc, Argonian etc. are all good and serves the purpose of the player. Next patch, your choice will differ depending on your experience and goals in the game. It might sound weird but I'll explain.

Argonian:

• Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → No changes
• Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion → Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
• Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
• Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%.

Argonians are considered the one of the best by majority of tanks due to how much sustain and healing you can have. It just makes things really easy. Next patch, we are looking to a race that is made for beginner tanks who may have sustain issues. Argonian still provides the best sustain especially while playing certain builds. They don't have many stat boosts or any group support in their kit. Healing Received being removed makes them less tanky compared to before as well but still, they have the best sustain which makes them the perfect beginner tank race.

Imperial:

• Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain
• Tough: Increases your Max Health by 2000.
• Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
• Red Diamond: Reworked this passive so when you deal Direct Damage now, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Also grants a 3% cost reduction on all abilities and actions.

Imperials, as most end-game tanks agree, is the best tanking race on live server due to huge raw stat boosts. This race lets you play a tank with incredible stats and swap to a Stamina DD anytime you need to. Next patch, we are seeing some nerfs to max stat passives as less difference between each race. This makes Imperial fall behind when we compare it to other races. Meanwhile, Imperial still has the biggest stat pool and lets you swap to a stamina DD spec anytime you want. When we look at the new sustain passive, cost reductions and the huge stat pool; we can easily say that they are the intermediate tank race. They have everything in one package but lower amounts. They have a small group support in the cost reduction passive, small sustain bonus in Red Diamond and very nice stat pools. Also the ability to swap to a Stamina DD spec. Very versatile and still strong. We can also have Redguard put between Imperials and Argonians as they are the exact middle of each race. They get the Stamina DD spec option and sustain but lose the small group support part.

Nord:

• Increases Experience gain in Two Handed Skill Line by 15%, 15 extra minutes on drink buffs → No changes
• Stalwart: 6% Max Stamina and 20% Health Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
• Resist Frost: 9% Max Health and 2079 Cold Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.
• Rugged: 6% damage reduction → Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

Here is the big boi of Wrathstone. Nords have been lacking a lot in Murkmire. The Rugged passive wasn't even noticable on a tank build due to diminishing returns, they have no sustain tool and their stat pools weren't that great. With the Rugged passive being slightly better (not because there is a ton of difference between 6% damage reduction and 4k resistances but because it lets you spend your CP somewhere else), stat bonuses being flat (making the difference between other stats and Nord a lot smaller) and the amazing Ultigen passive makes pushes them to the top of tanking races. As you see in many end-game tank builds, we change our CP according to trial (sometimes even between fights) to min max our defenses. Nord lets us have a ton of free points in CP, letting us get more of whatever we want, such as Healing Taken, more DoT mitigation etc. Also, Nord doesn't have any sustain tool. This is the part where we will see Nord being used by experienced tanks. People who are already know what they are doing and will not need those passives etc. will simply go for Nord and enjoy the amazing group support from the ultigen passive, easily minmaxed mitigation and better CP allocation for each fight. We can easily see that Nords will excel at end-game groups.

Orc:

• Increases Experience gain in Heavy Armor Skill Line by 15%, extra 10% Inspiration gain → No changes
• Brawny: 6% Max Health and Stamina → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Stamina by 2000.
• Unflinching: Healing Received by 5% and 20% Health Recovery → When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 600 Health. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.
• Swift Warrior: 4% Melee attack, 12% Sprint cost reduction and 10% Sprint Speed → Increases your Weapon Damage by 258. Reduces the cost of your Sprint ability by 12% and increases your Movement Speed while Sprinting by 10%.

There is a reason I left Orc for the last spot. Because Orc is going to be the tank choice for many score pushing groups in certain trials. Some may not know yet but Tanks dealing as much damage as possible has been a thing for quite some time and especially will be a popular way of tanking next patch, indirectly related to 1h enchantment changes. You might ask why Orc will be super good. Well, Orc has the best damage for a Stamina DD spec. You will start to see a ton of end game tanks running around with a vMA Bow on their back bar, Lover Mundus etc. Not only that, Orc has the most underrated passive in the game. The sprint speed and cost reduction. Speed is the one of the most important stats for a tank. May it be for score pushing, stacking trash packs and getting out of AOEs faster. That being said, there are also trials where you just want to be as tanky as you can and won't even try to deal damage but focus on survival and group support only. So, Orc being absolutely amazing for specific way of tanking, we won't see them everywhere.

To sum it up, even though I think Nord gives a bit too much, we have a nice variety of choices when it comes to tanking.

MLGProPlayer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1iXKjHY5u0&t=125s

Ratzkifal

I love that Liofa includes Orcs on the tank list, because I too feel that a lot of people overlook offtanks. Thematically the offtank role fits the Orc in gameplay and lore very well.
Just on the lore side of things they are not quite defensive enough in comparison to Imperials. However that issue is far easier to ignore than say the missing stealth on Bosmer as they still have a defensive boost.

Strider__Roshin

@Masel I can run protective jewelry on an Orc, and have more mitigation and damage then a Nord using Infused. Nords are now good for one thing only and that's PvE tanking. Talk about pigeon holed.

Joy_Division

You're probably going to get 9 different answers from the 9 reps

As a whole, ZOS did an OK job at least making the races competitive to play, which I do not think is the case on Live. I also think some people are naturally passionately about their favorite race and overstating just how negatively the patch is going to impact how their characters will play the game unless people are in the top 5% of the game looking for absolute min-max. But I get it, we want races to neatly coincide with what we want to do. None of my characters are strictly BIS, in fact my main is WiS (worst in slot), so I know people can complete and compete at the highest level without a race perfectly fitting their preferred archetype.

That being said, there are some things I would have done differently.

• I understand the ZOS logic of wanting to tone down Altmer sustain so as not to step on Bretons shoes, but a stam recovery passive is not something most people who play Altmers will find useful or enjoy (That being said, Altmer is tailor-made for PvP magplar, but that's too niche). So I either would added a utility that was magicka oriented if Altmer had to be adjusted.
• I think Bretons are fine
• People might not like decoupling fire damage from Dunmer, but because Fire is so strong as a DPS, it was something that was needed to encourage race versatility. With the latest change, their damage appears to be in a good spot. ZOS seems to want this to be a hybrid race, which would be fine and kind of fitting from what I understand of Lore, but the combat mechanics in the game are too heavily weighed against that. If in the future, hybrids become viable, this will be a fantastic race. Until then it's a bit bland being (although good) DD with little more of the secondary resource
• Khajiit: Like Dummers, if ZOS ever makes hybrids a thing, the value of this race will be much higher. I have not tested the change from crit chance to crit damage (I think I'd rather have the crit though), mostly because I do not play this race, so I will defer to those who have tested it thoroughly.
• Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets.
• Redgaurd: The weapon cost reduction is potent and that it reduces ultimate cost is interesting (it would be more interesting if weapon ultimates were more compelling). I've always liked the Adrenaline Rush passive. My concern with this race is it does not have the stats to measure up to what Orcs offer.
• Orc: This race seems to me as an outlier for how much stats and other bonuses it grants. If Orcs are supposed to be the stamina version of Altmer, then I think Altmer needs to be reevaluated.
• Imperial: I do not have the Imperial edition so I never played this race and cannot test it. I do know the old Red Diamond passive was not very good and like the idea behind the new changes. But as I said, that's just a gut feeling.
• Nord: If you tank, you probably love the changes. If you PvP, you can probably make a good build with the changes. However, the race does not offer much outside those roles and thus seems pigeonholed, which I'd rather not have a race be. But at least it's not pigeonholed into a role it's not very strong at, which is the case on Live.
• Argonians. In the initial patch notes, I thought this race was just getting hit with a nerfbat. The second round of changes reverted some of these nerfs, which I think was a good thing. In my estimation, the race offers useful bonuses to players who are newer or inexperienced at the game (sustain, extra health, healing bonus) and will make decent tanks, healers, and PvP generalists, which is fine. I'm not sure they are going to be BiS in anything though.

So some things I disagree, but on the whole I think the races are playable and competitive. Altmer and Orcs are the two races I think most need reevaluation.

BlueRaven

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll cannot be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

susmitds

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

The dodge roll passive can be used in stealth purposes too. The speed gain from dodge also increases sneak speed (and stacks with other speed buffs) and the penetration boost can be used to start a gank. I can emphathize with people about losing the Stealth passive but I think most people are not realizing how good the dodge passive as an NB both for PvP gankers and PvE heists. I tried one of the heists out in PTS and the dodge speed effortlessly mixed into my playstyle, especially with the Magelight Guards, who made the Stealth passive useless.

Cundu_Ertur

Raven is correct, there is an "and." The roll dodge was to replace the attack bonus out of stealth. The penetration bonus was because the initial dodge bonus had to be scaled back (which was clearly going to happen). We could have easily retained stealth where the useless detection bonus sits now. Speaking of which, what is the point of that? What is the value of that? Where is the use of that? None, none, and none is all I can come up with.

Also, "lots of sets" is actually two. There are two sets that grant a 2m bonus to stealth. We'd need to run both to get what we are losing to this miserably useless stealth detection garbage. So what you are saying, is my Bosmer who I built to replicate my Bosmers in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim -- all of who had bonuses to stealth, cannot have a bonus to stealth, despite all of the lore the surrounds the special role that stealth has for Bosmer culture. WHY.

I do not understand why someone on the dev team has such a massive hate on for Bosmer, I truly don't, but if you want to gut them just do it entirely and remove them from the game.
Seriously. If they don't get stealth, they are not Bosmer, delete them all.