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Snipe, Earthgore, TimeStop and Cloak all need nerfs.
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »
Double agree, Trickshot is a ganker.
What? I don't even have a stamblade. Must have me mixed with someone else.
Clearly someone trying to discredit logical argument with falsified data.
Haven't even see you in game in ages.
Do you even still play?0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »
Double agree, Trickshot is a ganker.
What? I don't even have a stamblade. Must have me mixed with someone else.
Clearly someone trying to discredit logical argument with falsified data.
Haven't even see you in game in ages.
Do you even still play?
I mostly PvE and PvP for an hour or so a day.0 -
laissezfaire✭✭✭1. Increase cast time and/or cost of snipe
2. Increase marginal cost to cloak like streak and roll Dodge
3. Remove the 'cleanse' altogether.
4. Increase cost and remove snare.
Edit: also, earthgore needs some sort of other Nerf besides just removing the cleanse but not sure what to suggest.
Remove cleanse? Are you insane? Dont allow new curse eater, yes but besides that cleanse is currently one of the most important mechanics in pvp. If you remove it you will both screw templars and slow down pvp even further. Why do you think so many people slot purge nowadays? Suggesting this you clearly have no idea what you are talking about...
Get rid of the 'cleanse' from earthgore. Duh... Not the skills that cleanse. Lol.Edited by laissezfaire on January 30, 2019 7:47PM0 -
Tholian1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Czekoludek wrote: »If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that
That's the point I was trying to make. I can't deal with cloak because my ping is so high that by the time I see your cloak being broken, I'm already about to be stunned, and mostly likely will die. Very very tiny window for reaction like this. And the answer is not nerfing cloak. For me, is a l2p. Need to react faster. Much much faster. But the other dude thinks this disallows me to criticize the "nerf this, nerf that" crew. Oh well.
So a skill should be nerfed because of your high ping?Edited by Tholian1 on January 30, 2019 8:30PMPS4 Pro NA1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that
That's the point I was trying to make. I can't deal with cloak because my ping is so high that by the time I see your cloak being broken, I'm already about to be stunned, and mostly likely will die. Very very tiny window for reaction like this. And the answer is not nerfing cloak. For me, is a l2p. Need to react faster. Much much faster. But the other dude thinks this disallows me to criticize the "nerf this, nerf that" crew. Oh well.
So a skill should be nerfed because of your high ping?
Dude literally said "the answer is not nerfing cloak. For me, is a l2p".Edited by LiquidPony on January 30, 2019 9:02PM3 -
megasurge93✭✭✭How about instead of nerfing the skills for everyone (because the truth is, there are more casual players than super elite), create a new PvP Campaign that only allows CP810 players and within that campaign various skills such as these are nerfed as requested by those elite players? This would be similar to the Kyne PvP Campaign for the under level 50 characters, except this is the other side of that coin and it's for the highest level characters who think they have what it musters to play with the "big kids". That then doesn't ruin it for the casual players and also allows for the super elite to have a special play ground to show their stuff.
"Illusion is the first of all pleasures." ~Oscar Wilde6 -
Tholian1✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that
That's the point I was trying to make. I can't deal with cloak because my ping is so high that by the time I see your cloak being broken, I'm already about to be stunned, and mostly likely will die. Very very tiny window for reaction like this. And the answer is not nerfing cloak. For me, is a l2p. Need to react faster. Much much faster. But the other dude thinks this disallows me to criticize the "nerf this, nerf that" crew. Oh well.
So a skill should be nerfed because of your high ping?
Can you not read? Dude literally said "the answer is not nerfing cloak. For me, is a l2p".
Oops! Apparently I can’t. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I hope the PvP players asking for yet more nerfs try to remember that some things (earth gore) are still used in PvE and don’t need a nerf.
PS4 Pro NA3 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that
That's the point I was trying to make. I can't deal with cloak because my ping is so high that by the time I see your cloak being broken, I'm already about to be stunned, and mostly likely will die. Very very tiny window for reaction like this. And the answer is not nerfing cloak. For me, is a l2p. Need to react faster. Much much faster. But the other dude thinks this disallows me to criticize the "nerf this, nerf that" crew. Oh well.
So a skill should be nerfed because of your high ping?
Can you not read? Dude literally said "the answer is not nerfing cloak. For me, is a l2p".
Oops! Apparently I can’t. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I hope the PvP players asking for yet more nerfs try to remember that some things (earth gore) are still used in PvE and don’t need a nerf.
Agreed.
I also find it amusing that half the playerbase is still whining about "Nerfmire" and all of the nerfs we get every patch, and yet every day on the forums there is a deluge of "nerf this, nerf that, nerf everything" posts like this one.5 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.0 -
Tholian1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.
I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.PS4 Pro NA10 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course) this seems to be the general consensus that all of these need nerfs and its been communicated to the class reps several times and we have hopes ZOS will listen to them.
In light of recent posts however, I believe it necessary to compile this into the forums as well so ZOS can see that is is an issue here as well.
Currently the aforementioned abilities do nothing but promote unskilled gameplay. There is no need to get better at the game, or learn to use your class effectively, when you can:
1. Spam snipe from on top of keeps or in the back of zergs, which heal debuffs and constantly hits for 5k+ damage as well as desyncing the target.
2. Cloak away from any fight you don’t think you’ll win.
3. Not slot a heal for your group because you’re all wearing earthgore which will completely negate Ulti-dumps.
4. Spam one ability over and over that’s CCs groups and negates healing.
Not one of the four things requires an ounce of skill to operate in this game, and quite frankly, holds this game back in terms of skill:success ratio. Currently with these 4 specifically the game doesn’t reward you for being good and improving your skills, it actively rewards the opposite. This isn’t healthy for any game, period.
Now, I already know this post will get a lot of hate because generally the forums contain a surplus of players who fall into these demographics, however I know that this has been discussed thoroughly with class reps on the discord’s and regardless I have faith that changes will come. This is moreso a compilation of some major pain points from the discords for the forum.
@zos_ginabruno @zos_gilliam
Eh, I understand that these skills/set are a pain point for some players, but it's tough to consider this argument credible because we don't have set definitions as to what constitutes "skilled" gameplay. It's too easy to make the same argument about a skill like DK wings, because the skill entirely removes a ranged opponent from a fight.
For example, I could just as easily say, "DK wings entirely removes a ranged build from a fight. The skill is promoting unskilled gameplay because it's not rewarding players for being good against ranged enemies or helping the user to improve against them. It doesn't take an ounce of skill to operate DK Wings and it is holding the game back in terms of skill:success ratio. DK Wings isn't healthy for the game."
See how easy that is?
It appears that you're attempting to take 4 unique skills/set and trying to say they all have the same problem or are causing the same problem. I don't think that's helping your argument for why each needs to be nerfed. If your goal is to actually get these skills/set adjusted, then I think you need a new selling point that isn't "unskilled gameplay."3 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course) this seems to be the general consensus that all of these need nerfs and its been communicated to the class reps several times and we have hopes ZOS will listen to them.
In light of recent posts however, I believe it necessary to compile this into the forums as well so ZOS can see that is is an issue here as well.
Currently the aforementioned abilities do nothing but promote unskilled gameplay. There is no need to get better at the game, or learn to use your class effectively, when you can:
1. Spam snipe from on top of keeps or in the back of zergs, which heal debuffs and constantly hits for 5k+ damage as well as desyncing the target.
2. Cloak away from any fight you don’t think you’ll win.
3. Not slot a heal for your group because you’re all wearing earthgore which will completely negate Ulti-dumps.
4. Spam one ability over and over that’s CCs groups and negates healing.
Not one of the four things requires an ounce of skill to operate in this game, and quite frankly, holds this game back in terms of skill:success ratio. Currently with these 4 specifically the game doesn’t reward you for being good and improving your skills, it actively rewards the opposite. This isn’t healthy for any game, period.
Now, I already know this post will get a lot of hate because generally the forums contain a surplus of players who fall into these demographics, however I know that this has been discussed thoroughly with class reps on the discord’s and regardless I have faith that changes will come. This is moreso a compilation of some major pain points from the discords for the forum.
@zos_ginabruno @zos_gilliam
Eh, I understand that these skills/set are a pain point for some players, but it's tough to consider this argument credible because we don't have set definitions as to what constitutes "skilled" gameplay. It's too easy to make the same argument about a skill like DK wings, because the skill entirely removes a ranged opponent from a fight.
For example, I could just as easily say, "DK wings entirely removes a ranged build from a fight. The skill is promoting unskilled gameplay because it's not rewarding players for being good against ranged enemies or helping the user to improve against them. It doesn't take an ounce of skill to operate DK Wings and it is holding the game back in terms of skill:success ratio. DK Wings isn't healthy for the game."
See how easy that is?
It appears that you're attempting to take 4 unique skills/set and trying to say they all have the same problem or are causing the same problem. I don't think that's helping your argument for why each needs to be nerfed. If your goal is to actually get these skills/set adjusted, then I think you need a new selling point that isn't "unskilled gameplay."
To be clear are you implying that snipe as it currently functions in game is balanced?0 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭remove cloak entirely and get rid of any armor on nighblades!!!
while scales can be spammed, and "honor the dead" get's to be free the moar you need it!!!
seriously, cloak is being contered by any braindead aoe, or any proc of the cloaker, any a few dots too.
ppl cry about death recap each time without understanding what it shows..
why do i feed this kind of post again? can't recall T_T1 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭ZOS needs to review skills and consider the following:
1) Impact of slotting
2) Impact of NOT slotting
3) Investment required to counter
4) And is a skill fully countered or merely decreased in effectiveness, and if so does that change anything?
We have 10 skill slots. Some skills need toning down in regards to 1 and 2. Others need adjustments to 3 and 4.
Cloak is one of the few that needs ALL of them. Not having it on your bar is close to or actually IS build-defining. On the flip side, it also suffers from it's either...countered or it's not. No in between. For example, jabs and a stamblade trying to cloak. Cloak's interaction with Shade (when Shade isn't broken, anyway).
It's just a big mess that needs some severe revamping imo, not just 'nerfs'. Agreed on the other skills tho.1 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that
That's the point I was trying to make. I can't deal with cloak because my ping is so high that by the time I see your cloak being broken, I'm already about to be stunned, and mostly likely will die. Very very tiny window for reaction like this. And the answer is not nerfing cloak. For me, is a l2p. Need to react faster. Much much faster. But the other dude thinks this disallows me to criticize the "nerf this, nerf that" crew. Oh well.
So a skill should be nerfed because of your high ping?
Geez... Read the whole text I wrote. Just... Read it. Your answer is there of you read it.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭montiferus wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course) this seems to be the general consensus that all of these need nerfs and its been communicated to the class reps several times and we have hopes ZOS will listen to them.
In light of recent posts however, I believe it necessary to compile this into the forums as well so ZOS can see that is is an issue here as well.
Currently the aforementioned abilities do nothing but promote unskilled gameplay. There is no need to get better at the game, or learn to use your class effectively, when you can:
1. Spam snipe from on top of keeps or in the back of zergs, which heal debuffs and constantly hits for 5k+ damage as well as desyncing the target.
2. Cloak away from any fight you don’t think you’ll win.
3. Not slot a heal for your group because you’re all wearing earthgore which will completely negate Ulti-dumps.
4. Spam one ability over and over that’s CCs groups and negates healing.
Not one of the four things requires an ounce of skill to operate in this game, and quite frankly, holds this game back in terms of skill:success ratio. Currently with these 4 specifically the game doesn’t reward you for being good and improving your skills, it actively rewards the opposite. This isn’t healthy for any game, period.
Now, I already know this post will get a lot of hate because generally the forums contain a surplus of players who fall into these demographics, however I know that this has been discussed thoroughly with class reps on the discord’s and regardless I have faith that changes will come. This is moreso a compilation of some major pain points from the discords for the forum.
@zos_ginabruno @zos_gilliam
Eh, I understand that these skills/set are a pain point for some players, but it's tough to consider this argument credible because we don't have set definitions as to what constitutes "skilled" gameplay. It's too easy to make the same argument about a skill like DK wings, because the skill entirely removes a ranged opponent from a fight.
For example, I could just as easily say, "DK wings entirely removes a ranged build from a fight. The skill is promoting unskilled gameplay because it's not rewarding players for being good against ranged enemies or helping the user to improve against them. It doesn't take an ounce of skill to operate DK Wings and it is holding the game back in terms of skill:success ratio. DK Wings isn't healthy for the game."
See how easy that is?
It appears that you're attempting to take 4 unique skills/set and trying to say they all have the same problem or are causing the same problem. I don't think that's helping your argument for why each needs to be nerfed. If your goal is to actually get these skills/set adjusted, then I think you need a new selling point that isn't "unskilled gameplay."
To be clear are you implying that snipe as it currently functions in game is balanced?
Not even close to what I said. No idea how you came up with that.1 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Do you realise that cloak is the defining ability of the nightblade, especially the magicka nightblade?
You keep asking to nerf the cloak to what end? Have you tried playing a magNB and found out that it is way to easy thanks to the cloak? What are your defences in BG as a magNB? You are a mage that can sneak, that's all, but a poor mage, because you lack any burst damage. I main a mnb and cloak does not save me that often, because it is so easy to counter!!! So I can't even imagine what will be fair play to you while fighting a STEALTHY class, the nightblade. Stealth and cloak is the reason I picked this class from the very begining, and at that time I did not had pvp in mind at all... just that cloak is a fun ability a trademark of the nightblade, a rogue/thief class in RPGs. So even if you keep spaming it, there are so many aoe's and dots that get you out of it, you can really use it effectively for a split second, then you really need act - either flee, or reengage in a new attack. But the problem is, once your enemies know you are around and using cloak, they activate their defences, pots, aoe spams, and act weary, so the cloak is not going to work for long.
The whole skill tree of the mnb is imagined to put pressure on the target with snares and dots, but you do not have a burst attack like the stamblade has with snipe, you have to build it up hoping that by the time you get the bow proc your target is still in range or has not destroyed you. I am really wondering if you know what you are talking about, when you discuss cloak nerfs.
So yea, snipe is bad because it is cheap, you do not need much skill to find a sweet spot and keep ganking people. But you can't also just nerf it to the ground, making snipe hit like a wet noodle. Snipers are usually easy to destroy if you get close to them because they fear melee combat, and are not prepaired for it. So each thing has a counter, and the nice thing about PvP is working to find out these counters, finding what works for you and getting better at it. Asking for nerfs on forums is not one of those counters.
Majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak. And no, you don't need it for open world.
Have you tried playing magblade without it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuzJ2N2yg8w
Try pulling that off by spamming Cloak as a magblade lol. You won't.
You want to say stamblade needs cloak spam?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0qj6YzH9A&t=175s
Yes, he has cloak on his bar but look at how many times he actually uses it. If Cloak increased in cost by 500% for 10 seconds after use, this guy wouldn't even be affected by it. Why? Because he's a good stamblade that knows how to play.
And for a direct comparison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQcY4GPJU6s&t=1m36s
I'm not even a good stamblade. If you look at the last fight you can see how I literally don't cloak once in the 1v1 and get an easy dub.
Every single night blade that says Cloak is weak is bad.
Cloak is a crutch for bad players. People think that you need Cloak to play a stamblade. You don't. You need skill to play it, arguably less than other classes in the current meta, but flat out removing Cloak wouldn't even destroy the class. It would make it significantly weaker, but the first 2 videos prove you don't need it, and you especially don't need to spam it. The last clip shows the kind of players that crutch on Cloak spam. All you're doing is setting a glass ceiling for yourself by relying on Cloak.
If you don't think Cloak can't be nerfed because it would destroy nightblades...well you're just bad.6 -
JPcrazysquirrel3✭✭✭✭laughs in stamblade"Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
"It's just not a home until you decorate the torture chamber, am I right?"
"If you want to lose 10lbs of ugly fat, I'd be happy to chop your head off!"
"Degenerates!" --- Todd Howard
"If it's not broke, don't fix it,....unless you're ZO$ and are just doing it for the money!" --- MeClass reps are just like our politicians. They promise mountains made of gold for us, but in the end, whenever they can they try to push their own agenda.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Bio:
I am in a Kevduit videoPS4 (main platform)
--- JP_Dovahkriid
PC (just for PTS since Dragon Bones)
--- JP_Dovahkriid
Playing since console release in 2015
17 characters; mainly play PvE tanks and healer, as well as PvP stamDK, magplar, and stamblade; I also have a handful of DPS toons to have variety. All AD, with one, now PvE, DC toon.
I was on the forums before, but something happened with my account info and I had to create a new account.2 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »montiferus wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course) this seems to be the general consensus that all of these need nerfs and its been communicated to the class reps several times and we have hopes ZOS will listen to them.
In light of recent posts however, I believe it necessary to compile this into the forums as well so ZOS can see that is is an issue here as well.
Currently the aforementioned abilities do nothing but promote unskilled gameplay. There is no need to get better at the game, or learn to use your class effectively, when you can:
1. Spam snipe from on top of keeps or in the back of zergs, which heal debuffs and constantly hits for 5k+ damage as well as desyncing the target.
2. Cloak away from any fight you don’t think you’ll win.
3. Not slot a heal for your group because you’re all wearing earthgore which will completely negate Ulti-dumps.
4. Spam one ability over and over that’s CCs groups and negates healing.
Not one of the four things requires an ounce of skill to operate in this game, and quite frankly, holds this game back in terms of skill:success ratio. Currently with these 4 specifically the game doesn’t reward you for being good and improving your skills, it actively rewards the opposite. This isn’t healthy for any game, period.
Now, I already know this post will get a lot of hate because generally the forums contain a surplus of players who fall into these demographics, however I know that this has been discussed thoroughly with class reps on the discord’s and regardless I have faith that changes will come. This is moreso a compilation of some major pain points from the discords for the forum.
@zos_ginabruno @zos_gilliam
Eh, I understand that these skills/set are a pain point for some players, but it's tough to consider this argument credible because we don't have set definitions as to what constitutes "skilled" gameplay. It's too easy to make the same argument about a skill like DK wings, because the skill entirely removes a ranged opponent from a fight.
For example, I could just as easily say, "DK wings entirely removes a ranged build from a fight. The skill is promoting unskilled gameplay because it's not rewarding players for being good against ranged enemies or helping the user to improve against them. It doesn't take an ounce of skill to operate DK Wings and it is holding the game back in terms of skill:success ratio. DK Wings isn't healthy for the game."
See how easy that is?
It appears that you're attempting to take 4 unique skills/set and trying to say they all have the same problem or are causing the same problem. I don't think that's helping your argument for why each needs to be nerfed. If your goal is to actually get these skills/set adjusted, then I think you need a new selling point that isn't "unskilled gameplay."
To be clear are you implying that snipe as it currently functions in game is balanced?
Not even close to what I said. No idea how you came up with that.
I think it stems from the fact that your post was vague and useless in its direction.
Any competent player who PVPs regularly understands the flaws with these abilities. The players who use snipe are by and large terrible at the game, know this about themselves, and use it anyway because they know it will most likely desync their target offering zero counter play.
With regard to earthgore I've literally seen people drop to the ground, hit 5% health and then heal to full while they are still lying on the ground because of this ability firing. There are groups on xbox that cycle between earthgore procs and remembrances to bail them out. If you think that takes skill then you are out of your mind.
I am done contributing to this thread. It is pretty clear it it littered with the same trash cans who use these abilities in game. Enjoy your badness.
1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Fire rune killed me that one time. Nerf plx.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX3 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WillhelmBlack wrote: »You forgot Permafrost and Steel Tornado.
I understand that you hate permafrost. But if you campaign for it, ask them to leave northern storm alone. Because they WILL *** with the base ultimate, sleet storm. I swear it's apart of some malicious compliance thing they are going with now.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on January 31, 2019 12:21AMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭montiferus wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »montiferus wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course) this seems to be the general consensus that all of these need nerfs and its been communicated to the class reps several times and we have hopes ZOS will listen to them.
In light of recent posts however, I believe it necessary to compile this into the forums as well so ZOS can see that is is an issue here as well.
Currently the aforementioned abilities do nothing but promote unskilled gameplay. There is no need to get better at the game, or learn to use your class effectively, when you can:
1. Spam snipe from on top of keeps or in the back of zergs, which heal debuffs and constantly hits for 5k+ damage as well as desyncing the target.
2. Cloak away from any fight you don’t think you’ll win.
3. Not slot a heal for your group because you’re all wearing earthgore which will completely negate Ulti-dumps.
4. Spam one ability over and over that’s CCs groups and negates healing.
Not one of the four things requires an ounce of skill to operate in this game, and quite frankly, holds this game back in terms of skill:success ratio. Currently with these 4 specifically the game doesn’t reward you for being good and improving your skills, it actively rewards the opposite. This isn’t healthy for any game, period.
Now, I already know this post will get a lot of hate because generally the forums contain a surplus of players who fall into these demographics, however I know that this has been discussed thoroughly with class reps on the discord’s and regardless I have faith that changes will come. This is moreso a compilation of some major pain points from the discords for the forum.
@zos_ginabruno @zos_gilliam
Eh, I understand that these skills/set are a pain point for some players, but it's tough to consider this argument credible because we don't have set definitions as to what constitutes "skilled" gameplay. It's too easy to make the same argument about a skill like DK wings, because the skill entirely removes a ranged opponent from a fight.
For example, I could just as easily say, "DK wings entirely removes a ranged build from a fight. The skill is promoting unskilled gameplay because it's not rewarding players for being good against ranged enemies or helping the user to improve against them. It doesn't take an ounce of skill to operate DK Wings and it is holding the game back in terms of skill:success ratio. DK Wings isn't healthy for the game."
See how easy that is?
It appears that you're attempting to take 4 unique skills/set and trying to say they all have the same problem or are causing the same problem. I don't think that's helping your argument for why each needs to be nerfed. If your goal is to actually get these skills/set adjusted, then I think you need a new selling point that isn't "unskilled gameplay."
To be clear are you implying that snipe as it currently functions in game is balanced?
Not even close to what I said. No idea how you came up with that.
I think it stems from the fact that your post was vague and useless in its direction.
Any competent player who PVPs regularly understands the flaws with these abilities. The players who use snipe are by and large terrible at the game, know this about themselves, and use it anyway because they know it will most likely desync their target offering zero counter play.
With regard to earthgore I've literally seen people drop to the ground, hit 5% health and then heal to full while they are still lying on the ground because of this ability firing. There are groups on xbox that cycle between earthgore procs and remembrances to bail them out. If you think that takes skill then you are out of your mind.
I am done contributing to this thread. It is pretty clear it it littered with the same trash cans who use these abilities in game. Enjoy your badness.
Wow, relax. What are you so upset about? You're getting yourself worked up over your own imagination. Nowhere in my post do I defend any of the skills/set you are talking about. If it's easier for you to understand, then I'll put the points from my post in list format.- We don't have a clear definition of what constitutes "skilled" gameplay, which makes "skilled" gameplay tough to consider as a credible argument for why things should be nerfed.
- I posted an example using the DK wings ability to show why "skilled" gameplay isn't a great argument for nerfs.
- I suggested a new selling point that is better than "unskilled gameplay" if the goal is to achieve nerfs.
If you actually read my post to understand what it means, you'd see that I offered the OP suggestions to construct a better argument for nerfs to the skills/set. It's like you're picking a fight with your own imagination instead of reading what I wrote.2 -
Kikazaru✭✭✭✭✭How do we balance out Cloak?
Increase the cost when casting in succession similar to how the Sorcerer's streak work?
Remove the guaranteed crit chance? If so, what should 'Shadowy Disguise' offer instead? Just cloak?
Buff up magelight/evil hunter/detection pot/etc etc?
Make the character translucent? They are not fully invisible, but rather semi transparent which require a keen eye to see.
Reduce the timer? A cast time perhaps? Wait... bad idea.
Remove invisibility entirely? But the invisibility aspect is what make this class unique to me.
Treating it like mistform? I don't know how I feel about that...
I find that my cloak is breaking more than half the time when I'm outnumbered. It takes more than just cloaking to survive these type of situations when players are able to keep up and spam aoe-skills/magelight/detection pots/mark in my face. Sometimes... single target skills will even take me out of cloak, like force pulse. Maybe that has to do with the lag.
I can see it being EXTREMELY powerful in a 1v1. The skill alone let you dictate the pacing and the tempo of the fight. Which is why the nightblade is top dog in a 1 v 1 situation.
Edited by Kikazaru on January 31, 2019 1:27AMMizaru
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Do you realise that cloak is the defining ability of the nightblade, especially the magicka nightblade?
You keep asking to nerf the cloak to what end? Have you tried playing a magNB and found out that it is way to easy thanks to the cloak? What are your defences in BG as a magNB? You are a mage that can sneak, that's all, but a poor mage, because you lack any burst damage. I main a mnb and cloak does not save me that often, because it is so easy to counter!!! So I can't even imagine what will be fair play to you while fighting a STEALTHY class, the nightblade. Stealth and cloak is the reason I picked this class from the very begining, and at that time I did not had pvp in mind at all... just that cloak is a fun ability a trademark of the nightblade, a rogue/thief class in RPGs. So even if you keep spaming it, there are so many aoe's and dots that get you out of it, you can really use it effectively for a split second, then you really need act - either flee, or reengage in a new attack. But the problem is, once your enemies know you are around and using cloak, they activate their defences, pots, aoe spams, and act weary, so the cloak is not going to work for long.
The whole skill tree of the mnb is imagined to put pressure on the target with snares and dots, but you do not have a burst attack like the stamblade has with snipe, you have to build it up hoping that by the time you get the bow proc your target is still in range or has not destroyed you. I am really wondering if you know what you are talking about, when you discuss cloak nerfs.
So yea, snipe is bad because it is cheap, you do not need much skill to find a sweet spot and keep ganking people. But you can't also just nerf it to the ground, making snipe hit like a wet noodle. Snipers are usually easy to destroy if you get close to them because they fear melee combat, and are not prepaired for it. So each thing has a counter, and the nice thing about PvP is working to find out these counters, finding what works for you and getting better at it. Asking for nerfs on forums is not one of those counters.
Majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak. And no, you don't need it for open world.
Have you tried playing magblade without it?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuzJ2N2yg8w
Try pulling that off by spamming Cloak as a magblade lol. You won't.
You want to say stamblade needs cloak spam?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0qj6YzH9A&t=175s
Yes, he has cloak on his bar but look at how many times he actually uses it. If Cloak increased in cost by 500% for 10 seconds after use, this guy wouldn't even be affected by it. Why? Because he's a good stamblade that knows how to play.
And for a direct comparison:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQcY4GPJU6s&t=1m36s
I'm not even a good stamblade. If you look at the last fight you can see how I literally don't cloak once in the 1v1 and get an easy dub.
Every single night blade that says Cloak is weak is bad.
Cloak is a crutch for bad players. People think that you need Cloak to play a stamblade. You don't. You need skill to play it, arguably less than other classes in the current meta, but flat out removing Cloak wouldn't even destroy the class. It would make it significantly weaker, but the first 2 videos prove you don't need it, and you especially don't need to spam it. The last clip shows the kind of players that crutch on Cloak spam. All you're doing is setting a glass ceiling for yourself by relying on Cloak.
If you don't think Cloak can't be nerfed because it would destroy nightblades...well you're just bad.
I actually have had more success on my NB when I play it as any other character and use cloak mainly to get the HOT ticks. I found running around stealth full time and buffing everything was good for 1 gank but I was wasting a lot of time. I do see some good ones who are in and out of cloak quickly.1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some changes proposed new on discord:
Cloak is given the mist form treatment. There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently.
Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.
Timestop heal negation and snare removed but the animation is sped up to compensate and the CC breaking of it needs to be fixed.
Earthgore reworked as an AOE remove all negative effects when you heal an ally below 50%, healing component completely removed.
I like it. These would be a good start. I can’t beleive I’m going to defend NBs lol, but if they did make cloak like mistform which is a decent suggestion, NBs need to have better access to major ward/resolve in medium armor. That’s the difference with mistform. And then in addition to better access to resolve and ward, they should have some damage toned down like remove the 20% damage increase after using incap. Having to use cloak to keep your restiances up makes spamming cloak kind of necessary.1 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Czekoludek wrote: »If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that
Cloack is BS. If I'm whooping your butt and you cloak away like a little beach, then try to surprise assassinate me when I move on to fighting someone with more courage, you still a scrub even if you do get the kill.1 -
BahometZ✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just sounds like a lot of people don't want to change their playstyle to beat their opponent.
Some builds will suffer against other builds.
That Earthgore proc that frustrates you has a 35 second cool down. You procced it once, you can take them down again.
Don't like cloak? Use detect pots.
If your health is so low that you are getting ganked by snipe spam, then you better be a ganker yourself. In which case, what are you doing in plain sight? If you aren't a ganker, why is your health so low?Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)6 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1. Increase cast time and/or cost of snipe
2. Increase marginal cost to cloak like streak and roll Dodge
3. Remove the 'cleanse' altogether.
4. Increase cost and remove snare.
Edit: also, earthgore needs some sort of other Nerf besides just removing the cleanse but not sure what to suggest.
Remove cleanse? Are you insane? Dont allow new curse eater, yes but besides that cleanse is currently one of the most important mechanics in pvp. If you remove it you will both screw templars and slow down pvp even further. Why do you think so many people slot purge nowadays? Suggesting this you clearly have no idea what you are talking about...
I believe theyre talking about the cleanse associated with Earthgore, not templars Ritual.0 -
Haashhtaag✭✭✭✭✭
✭Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.
I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.
I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.
So would you rather this set carry your group and actually putting in the work to better your group so this set isn’t necessary?0
